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  Discussion on Founder - most severe in rear feet, now high fever
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Member:
jalar

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 8:56 pm:

My 16-year-old QH/Arab cross, foundered the end of April. All feet were rotated but the right rear was most severe at a rotation of 39. (Not sure how that is measured but if anyone knows how that relates to % of rotation in the articles I would like to know). Horse was placed in a deeply bedded stall, given Bute, placed on restricted diet of limited hay, and placed in shoes with pads. Seemed comfortable for 5 ½ weeks, then suddenly three leg lame. Right rear, not weight bearing at all. Vet was called back out and new x-rays were taken. All feet have continued to rotate except front left. Most severe is the still the right rear that went from 39 to 44. Low-grade fever was noted when x-rays were taken. Vet has come back out to draw blood for metabolic testing since founder has continued during 6 weeks of stall rest; however, now it is noted that horse is running higher fever of 103.6. No visible abcess in feet, no stretching of white line, no heat in feet.

Things to note:
Horse has not been on any type of grain for years. Was on pasture and bare foot until this episode.
Horse ballooned in weight in the past year / year and a half with no change in diet or exercise.
Horse has a sheath that has doubled or tripled in size in the last year. Now is the size large orange to small grapefruit. It was normal previously.
Horse has developed allergies to bug and tick bites as well the last few years.
Horse is located in North Carolina – severe DrOught last year, very wet and lush at this time.

Questions:
What could be causing the founder and rotation to continue while limited in stall?
What is causing the fever?
What are the chances of his recovery as a riding horse with this type of rotation? (and continued rotation over a 6 week period?)

Any other information or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Member:
lisae

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 9:35 pm:

Does he show any signs of cushings such as long hair coat, pot belly, etc.
If so sometimes they have bad breath and an infection in the sinus which can account for temp many times these horses have chronic founder issues. Not a vet, just have had a similar experience with some of these symptoms in the past.In my case the sheath did swell some but might have been edema from stall confinment. My horse did not have that degree of rotation and only in frontfeet. He did do well for several years with treatment for cushings before we put him down but he was much older than your horse. Good luck with him I hope you can find some answers soon.
Lisa
Member:
lisae

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 9:39 pm:

Does he show any signs of cushings such as long hair coat, pot belly, etc.
If so sometimes they have bad breath and an infection in the sinus which can account for his temp and many times these horses have chronic founder issues. Not a vet, just have had a similar experience with some of these symptoms in the past.In my case the sheath did swell some but might have been edema from stall confinement. My horse did not have that degree of rotation and only in front feet. He did do well for several years with treatment for cushings before we put him down but he was much older than your horse. Good luck with him I hope you can find some answers soon.
Lisa
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

Hi Jamie, do you have styrofoam or something supporting the coffin bones? Sand or deep bedding in the stall?

I have heard of, but never experienced a horse running a fever with founder..is he drinking well?

According to some of the things I've read a swollen sheath, puts weight on quickly and unusually can be caused by IR. I know my arab geldings sheath started swelling before I realized he was IR, since tightening his diet and restricting lush grass this has ended.

Stall rest may not stop the founder. FME you need to get some support under the coffin bone, grass hay (even soaked) may help, no sugar treats. My horses can not tolerate alfalfa either. You need to start getting the weight off him slowly but surely to take the extra stress off the laminae. Bute or banamine is also very helpful in relieving the pain and inflammation, and may help bring down his temp. Some people also say ace helps.

Lisa is right too, he may have cushings, but it sounds more like IR. What has your vet said to do to help him?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 7:19 am:

Hello Jamie,
The most likely reason for your symptoms if the right rear has abscessed but this will take a thorough exam to document and treat properly. It is a common complication to founder. Also to be ruled out is the toe bone coming through the bottom of the foot but this is quite rare in a hind foot.

Continued rotation following the acute episode probably indicates the damage to the laminae has not stabilized yet and the current abscess is not going to help as it increases weight bearing on the other legs. You may continue to have problems until the horses body condition returns to a level 5 - 4 {moderate to thin).

I am uncertain what you mean by a rotation of "39". Would it be possible to post the radiographs or at least the veterinarians assessment verbatim?
DrO
Member:
jalar

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 7:23 am:

Lisa and Diane - thanks so much for your posts! Lets see if I can answer a few of your questions.

Does he show any signs of cushings? In my opinion - yes, but initially the vet did not think so. He is overweight w/ a cresty neck and more hair than normal for him... but he is slick, shiny and bright. She is now running metabolic labwork to see if something comes back (but can't run the cortisone response b/c of founder)

Do you have styrofoam or something supporting the coffin bones? Sand or deep bedding in the stall? Yes, he is deeply bedded in shaving and he has shoes with founder pads (thick wedges that support the frog).

Is he drinking well? Drinking and urination is normal.

He has been getting limited grass hay with no treats since April and is still foundering. He is losing weight but the continued turning of the coffin bone and fever have the vet worried and perplexed.

He is on Banamine when his fever spikes and on Bute for anti-inflammatory and comfort.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 12:51 pm:

Jamie the fever is strange. high fevers can cause founder i believe. He also sounds as if he has become IR from you description of his body type.

I wonder if his shoes and pads aren't somehow contributing. I don't think you are suppose to apply them until the horse is stabalized. I know I put shoes and pads on Hank too soon and he got worse until I removed them and put him up on styrofoam. Once the rotation and symptoms stopped he was reshod with the shoes and pads then did wonderfully.

I am not sure, but may be something to ask your vet...at this point wouldn't wedges help keep that coffin bone pointing down?

I he shod on the back too? If so, if he has an abscess I would get the shoes and pads off and treat.

Hope you are able to help your guy..founder is a devastating disease.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 3:58 pm:

Hi Jamie,

Just a rule-out question-- what kind of shavings are you using? You need to be absolutely certain there's no black walnut in there, since it can cause founder.

Unfortunately it sounds as though your horse needs a Hollywood diet. If his weight is feeding the founder, his only chance is going to be DrOpping weight. That should also help take a load of those very painful feet. It's tough to do when he's already unhappy.

Good luck-- very difficult situation to manage.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 4:36 pm:

Since your horse was fine for 5 and 1/2 weeks I am not certain that your horse remains actively foundering just that the initial damage had not stabilized by the time the first set of radiographs were taken. It usually has not.

And the recent onset of right rear lameness does not sound like refoundering at least from the descriptions we have here. Certainly it makes since to go through the causes listed in the article and be sure you have addressed all that apply but based on the history you give I would suspect the above problems in my post but a thorough exam for all possibilities need pursuing with a thorough exam.
DrO
Member:
jalar

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 6:47 pm:

Again - Thanks everyone for the information. When a horse is this sick, it is all you can think about.

The shoes and pads were prescribed by the vet after reviewing the first set of x-rays.

The deep bedding was purchased, bagged, as Horse bedding from the local feed mill. I believe they are pine.

He has been losing weight with his restricted diet. Probably about 75 lbs or more since April. Of course, if we pull thru this, he will be on a dry lot and use a muzzle when there is grass at all. Vets recommendation is grass hay only... for life.

Thanks Dr. O
We have Definitely doing the thorough exam thing.

I think we are on our 4th comprehensive exam with x-rays, bloodwork, hoof testing, farrier consults and so forth. The veterinarian is "very worried" (her words)so we can't help but worry right along with her. I feel like knowledge is power so I am working hard to learn as much as I can to (hopefully) make the best decisions.

I appreciate everyone's input and would welcome any additional comments. I will continue to post on the progress of the horse.
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 6:51 pm:

I don't know if my two cents is worth anything but the only time I've seen a horse founder in one back foot and both front was due to an infection somewhere in or near that rear leg or hoof. The woman who owned this horse actually tried to sell it to me not knowing that I knew the difference between grass rings and founder rings. I might have been fooled for a moment if all 4 feet had minor rings but this horse had the classic founder rings in 3 feet, not the one unaffected rear. For that horse, it all started with an infected wound between the hock and ankle that was not taken care of. The result was that hoof had rotation and the case was bad enough that the two front feet foundered as well. Is there any chance the horse has an undiagnosed infection anywhere's near that hoof or leg?

And for what it's worth, I had one horse hit with a bout of laminitis years ago. I don't remember there being a fever but I do remember the drugs used to open the blood vessels for better circulation also made her skin noticeably warmer to the touch. Can't remember the name of the drug but it's commonly used with with Bute for laminitis and/or founder.

Good luck!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 - 11:52 pm:

Just a thought; I've had horses that seemed to be more lame with the pads than without. They have done better in a soft boot or styrofoam padding. I've had very good luck with the Easy-rider boot when I've had sore feet from any reason. Also, we have a mare (Libby) that had laminitis due to serious injury on the other front leg. She was helped by a clog shoe - I think they are called Stuart (or maybe Stewart) clogs. Also, imo that digital x-rays, if available, are better than the regular x-rays. I don't know if your vet has the means to do so, but sometimes veinagrams are very helpful in diagnosing also. Feet seem to be tricky, and sometimes what appears to be causing the lameness isn't really the problem.
Member:
jalar

Posted on Friday, Jun 12, 2009 - 4:13 pm:

OK - here is a little more info from the vet:

Right Rear rotation 13 degrees
Left Rear rotation 11-12 degrees
Fronts only 2-3 degrees

Sidenote: she said the 39/44 etc. are a formula that vets use to notate rotation, but no elaboration and I can't find that formula. Can you?

Working on getting digital x-rays.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 - 6:45 pm:

Degrees of rotation is something I can make sense of but am clueless as to what formula she is talking about... It is one of those unusual cases of where the rear is worse than the front and I see this occasionally in horses that are very heavy behind, horses only shod in the front and road foundered behind, and sometimes I cannot see the reason. How much change in the angle was there between the firsr and second set?

However none of this is helpful in diagnosing your recent exacerbation. How is the horse doing and has any other information been generated to help diagnose the problem?
DrO
Member:
lisae

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 3:14 am:

Hello Jamie,
I have been away from the computer for several days and was curious how your horse was doing. I believe you mentioned he was having a metabolic blood work up done and if so did it reveal any helpful information? I hope he is holding his own and that you have answered some of the questions to help him recover. Just wanted you to know we are here if you need us.
LisaJE}
Member:
jalar

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 8:28 pm:

Thanks for your ongoing concern!
I have been sick myself so haven't had the time to catch everyone up.

The lab tests are not all back, but from what the vet said - he does not have Cushings or Thyroid problems. Waiting on the IR test.

After a course of antibiodics, the horse now has a normal temperature. We never did get a rupture anywhere on the foot, but he is standing evenly and happily on all four feet at this point.

He is also getting out of his stall for 5 minute hand walking and seems to move out properly. Generally, he is still restricted to stall rest in a heavily bedded stall.

The farrier is due out again in the next few days to re-trim the feet and the vet should be out again soon (as soon as she has the last set of tests) to take another series of radiographs.

By the way - the horse is named "Lucky" and he does seem to be living up to his name.

I am just so glad that the pain and temperature are much better.

I will post more as soon as I have more news, or if our fortunes change.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 10:15 pm:

Glad that things are looking up, Jamie.

Dr. O probably has some instructions about trimming in such cases, which you may want to review.
Member:
lisae

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 11:01 pm:

i disagree that your horse is not living up to his name. Try looking at the way he does," He is LUCKY" to have found someone as devoted to him and his health and who will stick by him in tougher times. hope he continues to improve as the days go by. please fill us in on any developments
Lisa
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 6:39 am:

Thanks for the update Jamie. These follow ups help folks more than you know.
DrO
Member:
jalar

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 7:58 pm:

More developments:
Thyroid, IR and Cushings test were normal.

Vet conferred with the farrier and the farrier came out today. The horse now has "lily pads" and horseshoes on.

Unfortunately, we had another problem with the right hind. My suspicion is that our mystery abcess has finally come to light. When the trimming on that foot was being completed the sole in front of the frog ruptured and bleed out quite a bit. It wasn't the normal pussy business but more like - well, thick blood and a fair amount of it. The vet was called and the farrier was told to pack the area of the missing sole with antibiotic packing and place a lily pad and shoe to keep it clean. The hole is quite large and the sensitive laminae or the coffin bone is exposed according to the farrier. It is apparent that some internal structures of the foot are exposed and visible but the farrier wasn't sure what he was seeing because of the degree of rotation on this foot. At last x-ray, this foot was at 13 degrees rotation but there was some concern that the coffin bone was still rotating. The vet and farrier will speak tomorrow and the vet will come back out after the discussion. Strangely the horse is showing no pain. He was walking sound before and after the shoeing. In fact, he did not have any complaint with cleaning, scrubbing and packing the area of the missing sole. I know that horses with abcess general feel better after the abscess blows out, but with so much of the sole gone and with the sensitive laminae or coffin bone exposed I thought we would have more pain when bearing weight.

We are still on standby…

I will keep you posted on the news.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:19 pm:

Poor guy! I hope this is "just" an abcess and not caused by coffin bone rotation. Glad he's at last feeling better. That's a good sign.
Member:
sooke

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 10:54 pm:

Does Lucky ever kick his stall walls or stomp his hind feet when flies are around? When I saw the amount of rotation in the hind feet that's the first thing I thought of. I read back again through the posts to see if it was mentioned and then when you said it was more like thick blood that was released during the trimming and his relief afterward it really makes me think of severe concussive bruising. I may be way off but I thought I should mention it. Founder is a rotten four letter word. I hope you get to the bottom of it.
Member:
jalar

Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 7:04 am:

No - Lucky never kicks in his stall. He is in a wooden stall with matted floors and deep bedding. Now, I can't say he has never kicked a fly but he is not obsessive with it. He has been in this bedded stall for over 12 weeks so if this is a deep bruise, it would have happened in April or before.

Everyone involved in this case has said he is not presenting normally.
Member:
jalar

Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 7:11 am:

Oh - and just a side note -

Lucky's sheath is still enormous. The horse himself has lost a fair amount of weight but the sheath still is very large. I don't know how this ties back to the overall picture but it certainly is abnormal.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 7:43 am:

Hello Jamie,
I am not sure I can make much sense of the latest as there seems to be a lot of conjecture but I would note that remarkable rotation and abscesses are frequent companions together. The tip of the bone puts pressure on the corium and sets up an area of necrosis that become infected. When questions arise about where is the coffin bone it is time to radiograph. It is a testament to the farriers skill that such a horse is walking around soundly.

Concerning the sheath is the swelling thought to be edema or is this fat? The difference is after pitting on pressure does it remain pitted when the pressure is removed. For more on this test see Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses.
DrO
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