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  Discussion on Alsike clover
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Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 2:11 am:

I've been having a problem at pasture time for the past 3 years. The first year, I was positive that my pasture was infected with chiggers. I took the horses off pasture and treated it for ticks and chiggers. While the pasture was closed, I noticed that we were getting clusters of white flowered clover. My thought, at the time, was "boy, the horses are gonna love that when we let them out again". After about 5 weeks, we put them out again. The legs were clear at this time. I forget how long it took, but the "chigger" bites "returned" pretty soon. I left them on pasture, an as it got well into fall, and the pasture started going dormant, the sores improved on their own. Over the winter their legs were perfect ( I thought, with the freezes, the bugs had all died ). The next spring ( last year ), we treated the pasture with pesticide and put them out a month later. The pasture became "glorious" with clover growth....it had spread like wildfire. Again....I was thrilled, because I knew how the horses love the clover. Well, BANG, the pasterns and fetlocks broke out in a BIG way. I knew it wasn't chiggers, because I'd been walking the pasture in sandals....and I'm the one the ticks and chiggers hit first....I was bite free and there was not a tick to be found. I described the condition to my vet and told her it wasn't chiggers. She said that since it had been a wet spring, it was probably scratches and outlined all the steps ( clipping long hair, antibiotic ointment, cortizone ointment, desitin, cleansing, dry, dry, and cover ). I have a leopard app, a light chestnut QH with 2 white pasterns in back, and a dark QH mare without white ( but she is 30 with Cushings and navicular - I don't think her immune system is all that robust anymore ). All four of the app's legs were bad, the two white pasterns on the QH were crusty and weepy and warm on the white haired spots with some swelling around the fetlock on the leg with the most white. The dark old QH with hardly any white had a slight outbreak just above her heels ( no white skin ). Well, I struggled all summer - each horse had it's own bucket for washing, and in it I kept each horse's supplies separately. Each horse had their own rolls of paper towels to wash and dry with, and, of course, clean bandages. I was having no luck. I called the vet again and got a tub of antimicrobial and some dexamethazone to mix in, and another lecture on scratches treatment. She emphasized keeping them dry and out of the mud - I reminded her that we pick up ( stalls, pastures, paddocks and all ) twice a day and that we had been in a DrOught for about 6 weeks. There had been NO moisture ANYWHERE for a long time.

I would get a great response as long as they lived in bandages ( I didn't bandage the dark horse, her little patches remained small and minor ). But after they would improve, and the bandages were left off, it came right back. Then, one afternoon, as I brought the horses in from the ( always )sunny pasture, I found round sores on the app's muzzle and the QH with the white back pasterns. The QH does not have pink skin ( just the little bit on the pasterns ). She had one small sore on the top of one nostril. The app had four...the upper lip, the lower lip on the side, above the nostril and inside a nostril. She is mainly pink skinned and on pasture always wears a UV flymask. I immediately thought - sunburn - and applied sunscreen daily. The noses cleared up. I began rereading everything out there on "scratches", and noticed how often that the word "clover" appeared. I began to really research that route. The clover I had in the pasture was mainly alsike. I roped off the worst clover areas. Everyone thought I was nuts ( probably was by that time ). But THEY weren't treating and bandaging 6 legs daily ( in the middle of the worst DrOught in years ). I went berserk spraying that clover and thought that I greatly reduced it. Then fall was upon us, the days grew shorter and the pasture was closed. And the legs were clear.

This spring, I mowed the pasture a week or so before I started turnout. There was a lot of tiny spots of clover, but everything was mainly grass. I turned them out, and checked their legs daily. Then our first haying began - a bumper crop with the cool rainy weather. We had some long and challenging days trying to get it in. I had to let up on the horses for a few days and when I checked again - it was back. The back legs of the app and a sore on her nose ( it was so cloudy that I didn't do the sunscreen ), and the back white fetlocks on the QH - bad. Sores, swelling and heat. And very painful. I ran out to the pasture, and in a little over a week my pasture was about 60% clover. I closed it and began to treat for scratches ( I'm a glutton for punishment )while reading everything on clover and photosensitivity I could find. After a few days, I switched to treating for sunburn: Sunscreen and shipping boots. After three days, I think the App is clearing. The redness is gone and the backs of her pasterns feel cool. The patches of crusty oozy are dry and smoother and smaller. The old dark horse never broke out this year. The pasture has been professionally treated for clover and weeds and is closed. But the QH with the two white pasterns is not right. We've been fiddeling around with her shoes for awhile, but figured the history of navicular in her sire, full brother and half sister might be catching up with her and we scheduled for x-rays and full lameness work up. Add to that, a rough ulcer history, a couple suspicious colics in the last month, a one day fever of 103 last Saturday and a general malaise and discomfort....and the "scratches/photosensitivity" and I'm a little frightened about a liver problem. When we told the vet how reluctant to move she was, the vet ( scheduled for 6/23) grabbed our farrier and came right out - frightened that the mare might be foundering. Today, she did digital x-rays,which showed slight changes in the 17yr old's navicular bone in the lft front ( the worst leg ). No laminitis, or evidence of any severe condition. Before she started sticking needles in her for blocks, the vet wanted to run a blood test...due to the strange fever and pretty decent radiographs despite obvious discomfort. She and the farrier, after viewing the x-rays decided to put egg bars on her and degree pads. The toe was also taken back slightly. There was about a 50% immediate improvement...but there's still the smutz on her white pasterns in the rear and a big rear fetlock. There's just so many seemingly unrelated things going on that I have to wonder about her liver.

I'm not certain about the alsike clover, but right now I'm having a better response in a few days treating for sunburn, than I did treating for scratches, ever. I also know that, after what I've learned about the clover, I'll do whatever I can to eradicate it from my farm. I just don't trust it. I don't believe all horses are sensitive to it, just some.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 6:16 am:

Lee thanks for sharing that! It really makes me wonder about my arab gelding, every spring his rear legs swell up and seem painful. Take him off pasture (which is loaded with clover...including alsike and he improves...put him back out and the swelling/soreness re-appears HMMMM. This goes on all during the grazing season until the clover is done. I have been telling hubby I wanted to spray the clover out...because Sam reacts to it, but I never thought the swelling legs were part of the connection, but it certainly makes sense as far as timing! THANKS
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 8:52 am:

Lee,

Wow, talk about being put through the wringer. I've done a frost seeding of red clover every other spring for years and just about cried after doing it this year; hubby decided this was the year he was buying the pull behind tank to spray weed killer. Which knocked out lots of the new clover. But maybe that was a good thing?

It is just me, or does it seem the last few years we've just had such weather extremes, and along with it, more horse problems related to pasture?

I hope Lee you've found the problem, and things improve.

BTW, is that the little white clover you are talking about? We have that in the lawn, and if I hold the horses for grazes they go right for it.
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 9:57 am:

Try treating with Tomorrow -cephapirin benzathine - dry cow..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 10:54 am:

Lee, do you have pictures of what the bites look like?

When we first moved to our new place here in TN, within a week my horses all came up with huge oozing sores/bites. I had no clue what it was. I thought poison ivy, chiggers, ticks, etc. But nothing I tried worked, and since our barn wasn't built yet, I had nowhere to get them off of the pasture. I showed our vet and he didn't know what it was - only that it looked like some sort of bite. After a few weeks of treating the bites with everything, I realized that they looked a lot like spider bites. I walked the pasture and had to look really closely to see that our pasture was infested with little spiders, especially the deeper grassier areas. We mowed it down and that seemed to help, until the season changed.

We now try and keep it mowed as much as possible. And after a few years, the horses have learned to stay out of the bad spots I think. Occasionally they will come in with a bite or two, even on their noses and faces, but not nearly as bad as it used to be.

Anyhow, what you are describing sounds a lot like what my horses had. Mine had oozing sores that would eventually crust up on their legs from the knee down, as well as under their jaws and on their noses. Everywhere the bites were the was also terrible swelling and heat too. I treated with Furacin, SWAT and oral antihistamine.

I thought it was worth mentioning just in case you have the same thing. We have tons of clover too, but the only thing that seems to cause is tons of slobber and DrOol.

So sorry you are going through this. Thoughts with you....
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 7:08 pm:

The weather here in NCentral IN has created a bumper crop of white clover. My yard and pasture are about overrun with it and I had ZERO clover last year. We had plans to treat/kill it in the next few days as it has really spread during the past 7-10 days. The Haflingers haven't even had a mouthful of grass/clover for eight days. Diva mare had three hours once this week. With the mud/rain their pasture time has been limited this week--sounds like a good thing!

Hope you get your pasture problem fixed. You have been on a treadmill!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 9:02 pm:

Sam doesn't get "scratches" his rear fetlocks swell up and seem to be sore to the touch. Once I lock him up in the dry lot it goes away after a couple days....returns when put out again. I don't know if the clover is responsible, but it definitely coincides with the timing. I know he doesn't tolerate it well otherwise either...makes me wonder.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 11:38 pm:

Thanks, guys, I'm so grateful for your responses.

Diane: DrO thought that my experience might be helpful to others on this board. Everyone around here is overrun with all kinds of clover this year....but they don't all own horses. My neighbor does but there doesn't seem to be a problem there. I went over and looked, and there really is hardly any clover. His land is also mainly sandy ( perfect natural arena )where mine is a bit lower and, although well drained, it's all silt and clay.

Angie: The clover is mainly white flowered, although I've noticed a slight pinkish tint in some flowers. I think you can ID it more by solid green leaves....no white markings on them. This clover definitely started about 3 years ago, got freaky last year, and exploded this year - it probably has covered about 2/3 of my pasture....but it's wounded now, and shriveling nicely thanks to the spraying....I'll spray it again if I have to. We've roped off a section of the hay field ( which was treated with herbicide and fertilizer early in the season and is weed free ).

Ann, thanks....When none of the scratches treatment was working, I picked up that info when you guys were discussing it here. This site is just unbeatable for sharing information. I can see where it would be very helpful...but not with my horses. As a matter of fact, because it seemed so logical for scratches, that was the thing that really began to open my mind to the fact that I might not have scratches.

Oh, my, Jennifer....I are a techno - dud of the highest order. I will certainly try a picture, I did it once, years ago....it was excruciating....and I promptly forgot what I did.

I have a small pasture, so I have to work hard to preserve it. It's in 3 sections and we graze the section 2 to 3 weeks ( before any great damage can be done ) then close that section, mow, irrigate and maybe fertilize or pesticide if needed. It's then closed for 4 to six weeks and usually is mowed once more during that time to cut weeds before they set seeds....but you just don't get the clover that way. The pesticide is supposed to work on arachnids, so I don't think it's spider bites.

My neighbor sold a horse a few years back and the buyer called up screaming that he was sold a sick horse. It was foaming at the mouth. We took a ride over to the farm where he was boarded - and the pasture was all clover. Got him off that pasture and he cleared right up. But I wasn't aware of photosensitivity problems - in my 40+ years of horses, it just never came up.

Vicki...yeah, it's nice to know that I'm not the only one persecuted by this plant. And, you know........my horses, who tend to put on weight easily, only get turned out on the grass pasture at 3:30 or 4:30PM and come in at 6:00PM. The rest of the time, they're in the barn paddock with stall access ( where they can nibble hay )and a large dry paddock with no grass.

So far, they've been off the clover for about 11 days. The dark skinned old mare remains clear. The app appears to slightly improve daily - so far, no more weeping from the affected areas and the areas are shrinking. I just wipe the area to get it clean ( she's not touchy there anymore ), apply suncreen and cover with shipping boots. The last mare, with all the other problems has had one back leg clear up with just suncreen and off pasture....the other leg is still swollen at the fetlock, very painful and still weeping. The vet will be out again next week to go over her and moniter her progress.

I'll let everyone know how things are going. Again, thanks.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 7:43 am:

Lee, I have confidence if you can bandage six legs for, 3 years!?, almost every day, you can learn to post a picture! I am techno slow also... Helps that I have teens to guide me when I forget... Digital card from camera goes in the slot in the computer and import picture. My software prompts me on the screen after I insert the digital memory card and asks me what I want. I want to import pictures and copy them to my Pictures Folder. I get on the web and google "web picture resizer" and get the site that Diane suggested. Once it's open on my screen, I hit the Browse button so I can pick the picture I want to resize so it's small enough to post on HA. When it's resized, it pops up to show me the old pic and the new, smaller pic. There is a button under the new picture that says download. Click that button and it is saved to your picture folder. Now you are ready with a smaller picture for HA. Once you have written your post, click the upload attachment button and then Browse for the picture you want to post. When doing all these steps, I never close a window, I click on the minimize button so I can work on one screen at a time, back and forth. Hope that helps. If it's too confusing, I'm sure someone on here can explain it better!

Hmmm. So you believe your horses have sunburn mainly on their pink skin/white hair areas from the photosensitivity created after eating white clover.

Diva Mare's pink skin/white hair areas are protected with full face w/ ears fly mask, mesh fly boots, and fly sheet so I don't think her issues are sunburn. But your experience is certainly helpful to RULE OUT sunburn for my Diva Mare.

I'm off to post to my discussion about my latest dealings with her "bites" or "hives" or "Hives Caused by Insect Bites"...

I'm still getting rid of the clover. I don't like the way it looks, the bees, and certainly don't like the potential problems it may cause for horses.

Thanks for posting about the clover.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 7:58 am:

Hello All,
Since this discussion was started I have been updating the article on alsike clover and other types of hepatotoxic plants, the update should be up in the next day or two. Along with it will be an updated Irritated Skin article with increased information on photosensitivity.
DrO
Member:
paul303

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 12:15 am:

Update: One spraying by professionals, and my pasture is 96% clear. However they guarantee it, so they will be back this Tuesday. My Leopard app, continues to clear up quite nicely with just some desitin and shipping boots all day. The old gal is just fine, and the appendix QH mare is better, but there is still a ways to go. On her, the badly affected areas are responding slowly. She wears shipping boots outside, also, and the tiny patches of white on her pasterns that were so severely affected are no longer quite as swollen or tender. Her blood tests came back fine, no liver involvement. Toxicology showed a small result consistent with antibodies. She's been slightly improved with her egg bars, but we decided to have her front feet injected yesterday. We had tried to bute her but her old ulcer condition acted up ( Ga$troguard tmt. ). Today, we had "miss twinkeltoes" flitting around as graceful as could be.

They graze in their temporary "roped off" section of our hayfield now, until their pasture becomes decontaminated of clover and herbicides. Will check back in if anything happens....or I manage a picture ( Vicki ). Thanks, again, to all.
Member:
jjrichar

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 11:40 am:

Lee, does the spray only kill the clover and not the existing grass? How long do you have to keep your horses off of the sprayed pasture? I am considering eradicating our clover too.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 12:35 pm:

I hate clover too! I was just asking hubby how I could eradicate it from the horse pasture. I believe mine is a combination of white and alsike clover, between the DrOols, high carb content, and alsike "problems" with horses I want it GONE!

The horse pasture is probably 70% clover!

Hubby said 24-D will kill it and the grass will fill in...I'm trying it this afternoon. My horses are dry lotted anyway, so I don't have to worry about the spray for now, but I believe the directions for horses is a week or 2 OR after a couple good rains.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 2:04 pm:

Hubby here uses Triamec which only kills broad leaf plants (weeds) not grass. Lawn and pasture have been treated and the evil clover is shriveling as we speak!

One of the Hafies was stung by bee over his right eye. No doubt a bee in the evil clover!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 4:49 pm:

No doubt! The bees sure do hoover around it
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:41 pm:

I apologize for the slowness of getting up the revised article on liver toxic plants. Starting it started a major rewrite of all the plants in this category, then a major rewrite of the liver disease...sometimes it happens this way but they all should be up later this week.
DrO
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 12:41 am:

Thanks, Dr.O for all your work.
Jennifer: It only kills weeds, plus, there is a fertilizer mixed in with the weed killer to punch up the grass. At least, that is what the lawncare company used for my pasture ( about one and a half acres). It cost $216.00, which was well worth it for me, after all the wear and tear on my back and pocketbook the past few seasons. Plus, the possible threat to the horse's health.

I'm sorry, Jennifer, I meant to get pictures, but we've been slaves to the weather lately, trying to get our 1st hay cutting in around constant rain storms. In the meantime, there is only a tiny bit left on the TB/QH cross, and it would not show up in a picture ( yeeeeeeehaaaaaa!!!!).

I think the combination of boots during daylight hours + sunscreen, and removal from the alsike infested pasture, worked.

Thanks, again, to all who wrote! Any changes or disasters........I'll update.
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