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  Discussion on Chiropractor aid in loss of hind end use
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Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 5:03 pm:

I have been doing some reading on chiropractic issues in this forum, and wanted to pass something along. I have just discovered chiropractors when multiple vets could give me no beneficial treatment for one of my horses, and ultimately said to give a chiropractor a try. But it is not that horse I write about.

I have an oldster, about 27, who I have had since he was ten months old. Pasture pet for many years because of a low ringbone issue, but he is happy with his world, and he is my friend.

In February, his entire hind end was tilted at about 35-40 degrees to the left. Clearly could not figure out where his hind feet were and was circling trying to figure it out. Also clearly at risk of falling and not being able to get up. Called my vet who was out of town for the month, called back up vet. Vet comes, I tell him that this horse, about a month earlier, had done a complete somersault. I saw it happen. He says that has nothing to do with it and puts him on IV DMSO solution and dex for five days. He straightens out, looks good. No real diagnosis happened, by the way. When I wean him off the dex, he tilts the same way to the right. Back on IV and this time they decide he has EPM from a titer that is about 65%. So I get the medication which I start and IV treatments end. Two weeks into it, he is tilting and weak again. Call the vet who says we are out of options. I decide we are not out of options until my regular vet tells me we are, and he's back in town now. And try to imagine the dollars spent to try to save my boy... well over $3500, but he's my pal, and we need to do the best we can for our horses.

Old vet comes, I tell him the history, he shakes his head and says "5 cc of dex every other day for two weeks, then every three days, and it will take some time." This was the end of March. My little guy is out and playing. Weak in the hind end but not a danger to himself and others, and at least he is having a good spring and summer.

Now, long story to get to this little but vital part. I have been having chiropractor for my other guy, and decide just to have him look at Shadrach, telling him the history. Not sure I want anything adjusted because we just don't know what was wrong, but I want him to look to see if he can give me insight.

He feels him and says he doesn't want to try adjustment because he (the horse) is not feeling him touching his back, maybe the meds, maybe not. Then he feels his neck, I tell him about the somersault. His Atlas, through which every nerve in his body apparently runs, is 1/2 inch out of place. 1/2 inch. That's pretty substantial, right. He says, "I need to pop this back in and does so instantly."

Here's the other thing that happened instantly. The horse is moving almost perfectly square now. Full resistence pulling on either side of his tail (a week ago you could pull him right over from one side). His back end is weak, sure, but he's also spent months with it squewed all around. I'm not saying he's perfect, but I am saying that he is 1000% better. It took only a moment and cost me nothing.

I am both amazed and horrified at the same time. Why is it that two veterinarians could not tell me that the Atlas was out of kilter and needed fixing? Or did not tell me if they did know. Why was that little horse made to suffer because veterinarians, at least in my area, are losing business to chiropractors because they are treating the source of the problem so ongoing veterinarian care is not needed. In cash, this was a $4000 lesson for me. What my little horse had to suffer through, and the emotional toll on me worried sick about him, well, I think it is absolutely unconsiounable. If the goal is to help the horse, then it cannot also be NOT to lose business to the person that could really help and minimize an animal's suffering.

Clearly I am crazed about this, and frankly, I can live with the financial loss. It's the rest of it that makes me crazy. I have been told by my vets NEVER to use chiropractors. I have a third one with a severe back pain that disappeared at a chiropractor's hands two days ago. The pain has been with him since I bought him. He fliches before you lay hands on him he is so used to the pain... except now, he does not flinch when you DO touch him because there is no pain. These are all little miracles to me. Maybe it won't last, but maybe it will. Sometimes we have to go on faith and instinct and gut feeling, believing it works even though we don't have tests. On these two horses I had expected no positive results. But if I hadn't tried, one would be in pain and one would be crooked.

So use whatever resources you have available to help your kids. But use resources where you have excellent, excellent recommendations. I mean, really, we're dealing with the spine here, and you don't want to be someone's first case ever.

I have also seen amazing results from accupuncture, but that does not realighn bones that are out of whack, so don't think of it as either one or the other. They do different things.

Jumping off my soapbox, kinda teary eyed because I did not venture into this territory of chiropractors before, and could have helped my horses sooner if I had only known.

Diana
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 7:02 pm:

Diana,

I have had many much more positive experiences with chiropractors, acupuncturists, and massage therapists than I have had with vets. The vet's answer is usually a medication and in my experience the only medication that can actually cure something is an antibiotic, everything else is a coverup for something that in most cases can be managed by diet, exercise, environment and proper hoofcare.

I am not saying some horses do not need certain medications, but when that is the first thing instead of the last thing, that's where I have a problem.

I may be in the minority, but I have much better results with my therapists than my vet. They also invest more time then my vets ever have. The vet is in and out 20 minutes tops, the chiropractor 1 hour at a minimum and most times more and works on the entire horse and does not assume to know everything.

Now, I'll get off my soapbox as well.
Rachelle
New Member:
rg77

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 9:11 pm:

Hi Diana, I am new to this site as well and have been reading some of the threads over the last few days. Looks like we have quite a diverse group of people here. Im sorry for all the anguish you have been through treating your horse. The questions you pose are legitimate concerns that many, including myself have asked several times.

The same debate is present in the human field between traditional medicine and CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine) practitioners. One of major reasons for disagreement that is almost ALWAYS brought up by conventional docs is "There isn't enough research on that yet for there to be evidence that it works"
Little evidence proves alternative or complementary therapies work. But that's not necessarily because those therapies don't work. It's just that most have not been researched. Why the discrepancy in the amount of research between the two approaches? Unfortunately, Profit.

Most research is supported by for-profit organizations like pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturers to prove that their drug or device works. With proof, they can get FDA approval to sell their drug or device. Even research being done in nonprofit organizations like universities and academic medical centers is mostly being conducted through grants and foundations developed by for-profit companies. There isn't as much money to be made if the evidence for CAM therapies is shown to exist.

I personally went through undergrad college (equine science) and everything I was taught in all the pre-vet classes was entirely the conventional approach. Since I graduated 10 years ago (OMG I just realized I graduated 10 YEARS AGO!) and working alongside some of the top trainers in eventing and dressage (who in turn use a lot of the top vets in the country), I have been fortunate to be among and witness the training regimens of some of the top equine athletes in the US. One thing all these top trainers have in common is they all want to make sure their horse is performing at the top of their potential. And I would very confidently say that over 90% of riders at the top level of the sport use Complementary care for their horses. This is because having your horse 'NOT SICK' is just not good enough. And that is pretty much the level that a traditional vet will 'max out' at. (Even the very good ones at the very reputable spectacular equine hospitals). If your horse is not in pain, not sick, normal bloodwork, x-rays normal, getting a balanced diet......there is not much else they can help you with!!
And its not their fault, its just not part of the vet/med school or internship training! Do we expect vets to specialize in everything? I do not. There are several alternative treatments that demand extensive knowledge and experience that shouldn't be added to the vast amount of knowledge a vet is expected to assimilate in vet school (a lot of my college friends have recently become vets and their facebook status messages as they finish vet school tell the whole story :-)).
The best vets I have come across that in my opinion, are head and shoulders above some of the so called 'top vets' because at some point they let go of any EGO, and accepted the fact there was much they could learn in addition to what they already were taught, and in some cases "accept the fact that what they were taught about something was the wrong approach!!" (their opinion). They take some of the best ideas/practices from other modalities and add it to their own. These have been the vets that made me go 'Wow'. For 8 years, all the knowledge they gain is what someone else decided what they should and should not know. (board of veterinary medicine?.

I don't expect all vets to specialize in everything, otherwise they would graduate from vet school at 40! I have the utmost respect for all vets, and think that they are in the field for the right reasons...to care for animals! But I personally do want to use a vet that recognizes the various political and monetary reasons behind the way our world works.
So if I have seen good chiropractic work with hundreds of my horses never with any harm done, then if I feel another horse needs it, Im not going to stand there twiddling my thumbs for the next 15 years waiting for someone to spend the millions of dollars till they are satisfied with the amount of evidence obtained! That is not in the best interest of the horse. If all vets recognized this then we would not have the occurrences of people not going to their vet because they are fed up with their 'close mindedness' or stubborness, and try to treat their horse's conditions with random supplements or the wrong alternative treatments.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for the day...triggered by Diana's post. I tried to be general....or this post would go on forever. If anyone would like me to clarify specifics, Id be happy to respond.
Ive enjoyed reading the posts and articles over the last few days. Dr. O, you are a wealth of information! Thanks.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 7:56 am:

Riyad,
You have very succinctly stated some of the reasons why some vets don't agree with alternative and complimentary treatments on horses. I applaud your well reasoned view. I also agree that the best vets have taken a balanced approach to alternate care and conventional medicine. I also sense a change in some vets attitudes towards complementary medicine as they attempt to catch up on the latest treatments. IMHO they just can't do it, just from the time factor alone. Their conventional work takes too much time to spend much time doing the alternative work ( which takes much longer and requires a different approach) so instead of giving their blessing to CAM medicine they are now trying to suppress it by trying to regulate it to death.

Great post!
Rachelle

Dr. O,

Riyad makes some very good points here. So I asked myself, how do I know these things work? I can tell by my horses attitude, demeanor and performance before, during and after their treatments. The look in their eyes tells me what I am doing is the right thing, unlike the look in their eyes when the vet comes at them with a needle (which thankfully in my case is very rare and IMHO is because of the complimentary care they get from the set of therapists I use and the very reasonable advice from the articles on HA and you).
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 9:14 am:

Diana,
I think this is best placed under your complete case history in the first discussion you opened, so I am moving it there so we can get all the information in one place. For those coming here I refer you on to, Diseases of Horses » Performance Problems » Exercise Intolerance and Poor Performance » Horse cannot turn/move left.
DrO
Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 9:31 am:

Ah, I knew I liked this site when I put up my first plea for help, and you guys, on this post, have proven this is the place to be to learn and discuss. Thanks!

I have no issue with vets not knowing everything. I'm a lawyer. I get that you cannot know everything and be good at it. My issue is, in my profession as well as with vets, and it was said above: ego and money. If you cannot help a horse, darn it, just say it, and give a suggestion or two. Do not say to me "NEVER use a chiropractor on this horse," when there is no medical option, and don't say, when a horse is in obvious pain, "just ride him every day." Oh, yeah, because I would like to cause him MORE pain!

To the credit of Cornell, with one of my other horses (been a very tough year for my horses!), when they saw a serious problem with my Gulliver, and there was no viable medical treatment, THEY said chiropractor and massage. The result of that is a horse that had NO ability to turn his head, neck and shoulder to the left, is starting to regain that movement relatively quickly. They said it will likely take months (Cornell did), but at least they acknowledged 1) they could do nothing and 2) others could, so use them!

Here's another unbelievable one. Yesterday, vet told a little girl, well, 18 years old the following (off topic): her 5 year old quarterhorse has arthritis so severe that he can never jump over 2'6" again because if he does he will break a leg. WHAT? By the way, this vet is not even allowed in my barn. So many questions on what she said. How does, say, a 2'9" jump result in a broken leg in a horse with arthritis? I don't even believe the horse has arthritis, I just think that it's creating a lifetime of income for the vet. She tends to do that. Unfortunately, she is the only vet we have locally that is a chiropractor. Fortunately, people do try the "other guy" who is not a vet and never go back to the vet who is, quite obviously, incompetent. This poor kid is still in tears about it, but finally convinced to get a second opinion, making appointment with Cornell

Anyway, I certainly don't blame vets for not knowing everything (though I do think an Atlas that is 1/2 inch out of place should be kind of a basic issue with a horse with a sudden and unknown neurologic problem when told he has recently had a complete somersault). I blame vets for not having the first concern as the horse's well being, refusing to acknowledge other possibilities of treatment, and refusing to acknowledge that they do not know everything. My overall experience is the younger vets throw drugs at things, the older vets throw common sense at it, but all of them are losing income to the chiropractors. I say, so what? I don't take cases as an attorney that I do not feel skilled enough to handle and I refer to those who can. Vets need to do the same. At least tell me to take my horse to Cornell if you are out of options because, well, because you're out of options you KNOW about. Don't tell me to kill him.

Don't get me wrong. There are times when that is the only viable option, and when I have faced that in the past, I unequivocally know it. Usually coupled with a horse's suffering and pain that must come to an immediate end. And I bless the vets that rush to me for that call.

It's just that sometimes, there are other, and better, alternatives that I think vets need to acknowledge for the benefit of their patients, not their income and ego.

Thanks all for your input, it is, as always, enlightening and informative.

Diana
Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 9:32 am:

Dr. O, this is a different horse with a totally different case history.....

Diana
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 9:35 am:

Hello All,
First let me congratulate you on your success with your horse and getting him to return to normal. I know you feed elated with a resolution about this worrisome problem. However your post has some puzzling aspects that I think need pointing out because I think the diagnosis as stated is incorrect, at least as I understand the case and your meaning.

To be sure everyone knows the atlas is the first cervical vertbrae and in front articulares with the skull. If the atlas was displaced even several millimeters (there are 12 millimeters to the half inch) out of place the horse would have serious issues with hind limb incoordination. A half inch would probably so damage the cord the horse would be unable to rise and this far up may even die acutely due to an inability to breath as these nerves also travel through the proximal cervical vertebrae.

So what are the possibilities to account for the above stated facts? I think we can more easily explain these facts not with a physically displaced vertebrae but with a muscle spasm of the epaxial musculature around and joined to the atlas that caused a severe "crick" in the neck. It is possible that the adjustments provided a mechanism for relief of these spasms.
DrO
Member:
dgcesq

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 12:38 pm:

Dr. O, this is not the same horse. It is a 27 year old that had some as yet undiagnosed spinal issue going on and had, suddenly and after a somersault, no meaningful use of his hind legs which were severely angled and he couldn't figure where they were or how to use them, and if he had gone down (I was holding him up), no way he could have gotten up. That is why I posted it under a different heading. Different horse, no radiographs taken or recommended, and 19 years older than the one having the turning issues. He was, in a word, just a mess when the vet first came. The DMSO IV treatments and dex clearly brought down whatever inflamation was causing the problem, but when taken away, the problem came back. Dex alone, currently, has been keeping him happy and safe, but still hind end was akilter. He also, through this, had very limited feeling along his back and still had that limited feeling.

He did not have breathing difficulties, but could that not be dependent on which way the Atlas was out of position? And couldn't that be why he didn't just die upon somersaulting? And I mean a full somersault. I saw it happen. He jumped right up and shook himself off, I checked him out and called a vet for a check up. Was told he was fine. There seemed, then, to be a little bump on the side of his neck, but the "check up" was barely even hands on. Then, 6ish weeks later, he loses the use of his hind end, very suddenly.

All I know is after the adjustment done, he is walking much more "square" with his back legs, with real strength in both directions which he has not had for several months. Although it certainly could be a total coincidence that this happened on its own the same day a chiropractor did an adjustment of one vertebrae is certainly possible, but the adjustment causing the result defies logic so much less. Do I think he is "cured"? No. There is clearly going to be lingering damage to him after 7 months of pressure on his nerves/spine, and the improvement may well be short lived, although today he is better than yesterday. And he's happy and safe and stronger for today.

The other horse, that this posting was about initially, is slowly but surely gaining flexion in his neck from the chiropractic and accupressure treatments and the stretching exercises Cornell gave me to do with him a couple of times a day, and is now voluntarily doing some minor things to the left on his own. This I see as a long term process. But what happened with little Shadrach was totally unexpected. Totally.

Third horse was also adjusted by a chiropractor. He has had extreme pain to the touch in his back since he arrived. I believe, truly, that he had an injury in the 1200 mile trailer ride to get to me. Vet says nothing can be done. A year of telling me that. Different Vet/accupuncturist says he needs to find a "better" way to address it after 5 treatments where he is still bending the needles put anywhere near that sore point (which is just about under your spine if you are mounted). Chiropractic adjustment... hmmm... no pain there. None. That wasn't expected either. Asking him to look at the horse was a shot in the dark. And I cannot believe it has even lasted 4 days. Figured it was temporary. Time will tell.

This is my first experience with these things after 30 years in horses. And the experiences have been beyond positive. All the "testing" and proof I need is to see my horses after these treatments. All medical options had been exhausted on all of them. And the option of just letting them suffer was not on my list, nor was euthanizing them. I just think my regular vets should have told me about this as a possibility. And I will say that Cornell suggesting it gave me confidence to try. It's nice to have vets say to use it. And trying it on one guy and seeing results, seeing relief for him, gave me confidence to try on the others, and see totally unexpected results.

Diana
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 6:45 am:

Oh...they sounded so similar Diana, I will move the discussion back under here.
DrO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 8:09 am:

It is the degree of displacement that is inconsistent with the symptoms Diane and a 1/2 inch displacement of the axis would impinge the whole cord, no matter what direction it was moved in. Also note that the idea that such a subluxated vertebrae (usually fractured before they move this far and would have all the ligaments at least on one side torn loose so there would be no stability even if repositioned) can be moved back into place through a forceful chiropractic adjustment is completely foreign to orthopedic medicine and I believe many human chiropractors knowledge and experience.

We get these sorts of reports ever so often Diana and it leaves me scratching my head as to what is happening. 30 years practice and I have never seen cases like the ones you describe and you have found 3 in just the last week so I try to look at it as objectively as possible.

It would appear therapeutically you are seeing something but the diagnosis is anatomical/pathological nonsense. What concerns me is what is a occasional reported downside to such adjustments on poorly diagnosed diseases: a much worsened horse do to damage from the adjustments.

Anyway, once everyone in back on this page with the discussion I will move it to the Chiropractic section in the Alternative Medicine section.
DrO
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