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  Discussion on Hay and diarrhea
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New Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 8:34 am:

My 11 year old gelding has been suffering from chronic diarrhea for a year now with some normal stools to days of runny stuff. I am so frustrated and need some advice. He has been checked and cleared from salmonella and worms, perfringens enterotoxin was negative, the biopsy of the colonic mucus showed no erosion or ulceration, and the blood test showed that he was a little low (67) for glucose and (24) for bicarbonate and he was a little high for chloride (108) and sodium (142)so nothing significant. Irritable bowel synDrOme was the diagnosis and he was put on a round of dexamethasone for a period of time with awful results. They then put him on a program of 1 flake of grass hay, senior feed, slippery elm bark and an enzyme supplement because they felt that his liver had been compromised and he is not able to digest roughage. He recently returned to me after being with my sister for 6 months and he had only been on that program for 2 weeks. Now he has been with me for 8 weeks and he has had the runny diarrhea for 10 days now. My trainers and I are not seeing eye to eye on what to do. Since he has been back, the feed got switched because it caused him to be hot at the request of the trainer. They increased the hay to 4 flakes a day (which I knew they were increasing, but not to that amount). and they felt like that program was not working (He had some cow patty days but not the runny stuff) so they suggested putting him back on omeprazole (which he was on at the end of last year with good results) since we were heading to a big 10 day show. I agreed...the whole 10 days he was squirting... Now their vet is suggesting iodochlorhyDrOxyquin. I told them no for now, but to put him back to 2 flakes a day, keep him on the omeprozole and the enzyme supplement. I have also suggested dividing the feed into 3 times a day. They don't think that will help. I know this was long but my questions are: Could increasing the hay cause the relapse? Can horses go without hay as long as they are getting a complete feed? (The trainers are not buying he cannot handle that much hay). I suggested that we stick with this for 6 weeks before we make any changes, do you think that is appropriate? I just think he has been through so many changes in the past 8 weeks from switching feed, increasing hay, adding omeprazole and along with that, the trainers had me try biosponge for a week too! I am so frustrated... Thanks. Carol
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 9:42 am:

Carol i don't have any answers for you, all tho , change is hard on a horse and would try to stay very consistant with your feeding program and work outs for a while .. horse shows are very stressful , so if ulcers are an issue , maybe not show this season till you have this under control.. Have you tried beet bulp? How long was your horse on bio sponge? More meals a day is far better then letting a horse stand with a empty belly with ulcers or stressed..
What kind of living arrangement is he in.. standing in a stall all day.. turn out all day ?? What kind of training is he in.. what level of training is he at.. ?
Change is very hard on a horse.. upping the training is change as well.

good luck .. this is frustrating..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
New Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 10:23 am:

He was on biosponge for 7 days and it worked initially then it became runny. He is in full training and I'm sure the 10 day show was hard on him as he was not fed on his usual schedule. The thing is is when we show day shows he is usually solid and fine. The more I read, the more I find that no treatment is the best treatment....
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 11:00 am:

ann, I personally think it is just normal for some horses to have runny stools based on the fact that I have known horses that were that way for years and years with no other adverse health effects.

But it sure is annoying. In the article on Diarrhea Overview we have a list of things to try that are somewhat in the order which I try. The most successful ones are at the top. I do agree that your number one job at this point is to get a regular routine down and see where you are at. Once this has occurred then you can try changes one at a time as outlined in the article. To take your specific questions:
1) Any change is feeding can cause a loosening of the stools in some horses.
2) Well designed complete feeds that provide adequate roughage and fed in adequate amounts can replace the feeding of hay.
DrO
New Member:
carol64

Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 8:58 am:

Thank you Dr. O,
How long would you try- 4 weeks? He always seems to go about 4 weeks and then has the runny stuff out of the blue with no changes. This was the first time he went longer. Also, he has been tested numerous times for parasites, always negative. He is stalled and not turned out, so should he still be on a worming program?
Carol
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 6:42 am:

If he seems to have a four week cycle to this then yes that makes sense. Normally I ask folks to give it 3 weeks before evaluating changes but that is after having made any changes slowly.
DrO
New Member:
carol64

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:15 am:

It has been 2 weeks since he has been on Omeprozole and 1 week since reducing the hay and he is better than he was at the show, but still fluctuating from runny, cow pies, and normal stools. I will be out of the probiotic and omeprozole soon so my question is do I continue or do I reduce the amounts until I run out and then try another course of action. Let me add, that last year his weight was not good and did not improve until he was on the senior feed and little hay. The watery diarrhea came back after the hay was increased (or maybe it was coincidental???)Would it be better to take him off of everything, keep him on the complete feed and 2 flakes of hay, and see where we are?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:28 am:

Ann, I read through this quickly so may have missed something, but if this guy was "normal" and healthy on the senior feed and hay, way was it changed, and why wouldn't you now just go back to feeding what he was "happy" on?
New Member:
carol64

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:48 am:

I know, I know. What happened is the trainer did that Succeed test that tests for fecal blood and it showed up positive in fore and hind gut. We then put him on Biosponge which led up to the runny diarrhea by the end of the 7 days and then I put him back on the Omeprozole (which he was on last year and because of those tests results.) right before the show, so I am unsure what caused what. Now with medicine running low I am unsure what to do next? Should I be satisfied with cow pies and occasionally runny stuff?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 3:20 pm:

I had always thought biosponge was to be used when a horse had diarrhea?

My only experience with diarreah has been with horses when they are first put out on pasture will sometimes develope very loose manure, but it clears up and becomes normal looking after a few day. I also have a mare that had very runny manure, even "squirting." I took her off alfalfa and fed her only grass hay plus a little Purina's Equine Senior with some added minerals, vitamins and probiotics. Once she improved I DrOpped the probiotics. She cleared up and has never had another problem except when fed very rich hay. Her system just can't tolerate rich feed. So, I'd be inclined to put your horse on a pretty basic "bland" diet, no rich feed or supplements, and see what happens. If he needs to pick up weight I'd add 1/2 a cup of rice bran to some Eq. Senior each day.

Instead of guessing on the ulcers, you could have him scoped. I don't know how accurate the Succeed tests are. Maybe Dr.O could comment on that. I'm always a little suspecious of tests that are marketed to owners as often they have the hidden agenda of trying to sell you a supplement or drug put out by the same company that puts out the tests.

Is he used to showing? Does he act nervous and restless at shows? A lot of horses are so used to the show routine I don't think it is stressful for them at all; they seem to enjoy it. So, I wouldn't automatically assume showing would cause ulcers unless he acted stressed, didn't eat right, etc.
Member:
carol64

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:04 pm:

He came to me with a diagnosis of ulcers and spent time on the Omeprozole with some success and then I had him scoped and it showed mild ulcerations and he was diagnosed with IBD. Are there any favorite probiotics that anyone would recommend?
To answer your questions, he has always been a show horse but never seemed nervous. At most horseshows he has been great but not at this last 10 day show. He seems like a happy guy but did have high anxiety when turned out for the first time in probably years. He was out for several months and really never got use to it. The deer scared him and he spent his time pacing. The pasture did not help either. Such a complex problem...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:05 pm:

ann, remember changes should be made after 4 weeks of a dietary/treatment changes and if you horse is improving why change now? If further diagnostics as Sarah suggests are possible to document what you are doing it certainly would be sensible. If this does not work slowly returning to a diet that did also seems sensible.
DrO
Member:
carol64

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 5:52 pm:

I am keeping the diet the same but wondered if I should continue the other supplements- omeprozole, Smart Digest and enzyme supplement all which are costly but I am unsure which ones are really helping. Would it be reasonable to back down one at a time over the course of a few weeks? Would this allow me to see what supplements are necessary? He still fluctuates from cow patties to watery so is that improvement enough to continue?
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 7:16 pm:

Ann,

I had a mare with on and off diarrhea, I tried just about everything on her including enzymes and gastrogard. The enzymes made her manure very mucousy. The gastrogard got too expensive. I was also putting water in her morning feed because I thought she might have been dehydrated from all the loose manure.

One day, I just stopped all of it, maybe not the wisest move, but my rationale was that if she got claimed or sold no one was going to take the time to switch feeds or add supplements. She'd get whatever they happened to have available at the time and they wouldn't ask me for any advice.

I'd put your horse back on whatever worked the best and go from there. Sometimes simple is better. My current race mare had a similar problem, she'd go from normal to loose all in one day. She was switched a few months ago to Triple Crown Complete and it has done wonders for her, I still have an occasional cow flop, probably from too much grass, but she has been very solid at all other times, even in the race paddock where it used to be the worst. I also find it to not be a hot feed, so there is no more getting nuts and nervous. I figured if it was good enough for the Olympic Horses it was good enough for me.

I know what a frustrating problem this is, so I wish you a lot of luck.

Rachelle
Member:
carol64

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 10:27 pm:

Thanks Rachelle, that is kind of what I am thinking since I am nearly 100 percent sure there is nothing seriously wrong. He is on Patriot Easy and 2 flakes of grass hay now, so we'll see how the month goes.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 8:18 am:

ann, you came to this site because you were confused over the changes made in your horse's diet and treatment and their significance. You state the horse is getting better under the current regimen yet here you want to change what you are doing. I still recommend you go the course of 4 weeks so you can get a good feel for what is happening then if you wish to wean off the meds that would be fine but it should be noted that recurrence with ulcers is high in cases of early withdrawl. For more on this see the article on Gastric Ulcers in Adults.
DrO
Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:14 am:

Thank you Dr. O. We'll give it some more time. Let me explain that the original ulcer diagnosis was made by accident not any test. He was given the medicine and the previous owners saw good results for a period of time (which is true for all the things we have tried) but I had him scoped and the vet said it was IBD. That is why I am questioning the omeprozole usefulness.
I will keep him on it for the 4 weeks and see what results we get. THank you for your help.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:37 am:

Considering the history I think there is a question about whether this is a problem but without performing confirming diagnostic work does it make sense to stop and change directions in the middle of the river or will that introduce more questions than answers? Be sure you understand all the implications by studying the article on ulcers.
DrO
Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 10:47 am:

I agree that I need to stay a course to really know what is going on, which is why I was concerned when I found out that the hay had been increased. My issue now is the omeprozole will run out before 8 weeks and as you know is very costly. I usually get a 100 day supply at around $300 which I know is better than the Gasto-Guard. If I get enough for another 4 weeks (which would make 8 weeks) what should I expect to see if the omeprozole is working well- return of normal stools? And by confirming diagnostic work do you mean have him scoped again or use the Succeed test? I do know for sure that he gets along much better with grass hay and not a lot of it.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 11:47 am:

Ann,

I noted in your post that you are using omeprozole, which I will assume because of the price for a 100 day supply is not gastrogard or ulcergard. Are you buying the OTC pills or are you buying a mixture from your vet?

I too looked into buying the OTC pills, but when I talked to my vet about this he said that Gastrogard/Ulcergard had proprietary ingredients in them that worked in a complimentary fashion with the omeprozole and thus worked much better than the pills alone. The reason I tend to believe him is that he did not make a much of a profit on the gastrogard/ulcergard he sold to his clients and he was ok with purchasing the product elsewhere for as cheaply as we could get it.

I did use it( ulcergard) on one horse for a full month, did not see much of a change if any and had much better luck putting her on Succeed and changing her diet.

A few years later, I happened to be in my local feed store and a Succeed representative was in there with a demonstration of the New Succeed test and explained to me that sometimes the reason Gastrogard/Ulcergard does not work is because the ulcers are located further down the gastrointestinal tract ( colonic rather than stomach) and that the omeprozole worked better on stomach ulcers and that the Succeed worked better on the colonic ulcers, but overall improved the horses entire digestive system.

Since your vet has made a diagnosis of IBS on your horse maybe what you have is a colonic ulcer and not a stomach ulcer and you might want to look into using Succeed rather than omeprozole.

The Succeed also improved my horses appetite and her attitude improved.

Just my thoughts
Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 3:52 pm:

Rachelle, very interesting about the Succeed vs. Gastroguard. I've never heard that before. Good info.
Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 3:55 pm:

That is very interesting. Yes, I am using a mixture made up from the vet (previous owner's) because they said that it worked although I have not seen great results yet. I have read up on both gastric and colonic ulcers and what you have said I find to be true as well. I have thought it was very possible that he has a colonic ulcer which is why he was put on slippery elm bark and other supplements and as it was suggested by the literature, decrease or eliminate hay. I started the omeprozole based on the Succeed test. Is Succeed and Biosponge the same treatment? I know my mistake was to take him off the program and introduce Biosponge and omeprozole before I knew that the hay had been doubled. If I had known that I probably would have held off until I got him back to the original program.
Member:
carol64

Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 4:45 pm:

I also found that SmartDigest Ultra and Succeed were comparable in what they provide, but Smart Digest Ultra was less expensive.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 8:49 am:

I hate to be a spoiler here but it is in keeping with my Holy Grail of trying to keep you guys pocketbooks full while keeping your horses healthy: looking at the ingredients, with its Swedish tiger oat oil, oats, killed yeast culture, glutamine, and threonine would be a waste of money unless the cost per lb compared on an equal energy level is less than commonly used fats and oils in the horses diet. Looking forward to a lively discussion on these subjects but note that most of the issues with these ingredients (fats and oils, killed yeast, proteins) are discussed in the nutrition sections. The nucleic acid claim is so off the wall as to not warrant discussion.


If you wish to discuss this I would like a bit more information. No where on the Succeed® site can I find the concentration or a guaranteed analysis of these substances in the product. Is it on the container? If so I would like to have these information along with:
  • weight of the container
  • cost of the container
  • recommended dosage rate

DrO
Member:
carol64

Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 9:39 am:

From my research through this site and others, the recommendation for hind gut repair is: frequent feedings, decreased grass hay, extruded feed with at least 30% fiber, then: 1 cup of sucralfate, a psylluim supplement like Metamucil, 1 cup of corn or flaxseed oil.
Here lies the problem if you board- not many places go for all of these additions so some of us go for a product that we think we accomplish the same to try to make it easier. I'm not saying it is right, but for those who aren't directly involved with the feeding, it may be our only choice.
Here is the information on Succeed:
https://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=2755#fulldescript ion
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