|
|
Discussion on Thyrol-l and Chromium for EMS Horses
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 12:08 pm:
Hi All,
I know this is a bit controversial, but really want to get as many experiences of HA members (and DrO of course) using Thyro-L for weight loss with the following criteria:
1) Thyro-L alone (plus amount fed)
2) Thyro-L in conjunction with Chromium (plus amount fed)
3) Was anything changed, such as exercise/diet - before, during or after starting treatment? - very important.
Am mainly interested in those who have actually tried it and what the results were. I realize that there will be a myriad of experiences due to other contributing factors.. In previous threads, I have read of horse who was on Thyro-L alone with mixed results and later added exercise/diet with the result of weight loss, and it was conjectured that the Thyrol-L was not a contributing factor. I have also read of experiences that horses lost weight while just on Thyrol-L without a change in exercise/diet, those who it did not help at all, and those who lost weight with only exercise and diet. I really want as much honest information as possible.
Thanks,
Kathleen
|
Member:
zarr
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 1:15 pm:
Ellie went on Thyrol after her founder episode but also a diet and off green grass for 6mos..She lost weight founder left and it took mom a long time to let go of Thyrol-L. Vet kept saying she's OK now, but she was so close to a huge problem I was terrifed to stop giving it to her.It helped her lose 100lbs and she has kept it off for 8yrs now, Wish I could say the same! 
|
Member:
cheryl
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 8:49 am:
Fox was put on Thyro-l by three different vets - I never saw any change in her at all. She is currently in dry dock - getting 13 pounds of timothy/clover mix hay a day. I just started riding her again after her 16th or 17th founder episode. Hopefully the exercise with the 13 pounds of hay will take the weight back off her.
Cheryl
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 7:09 pm:
Cindy, Cheryl
What was the dose of Tryrol-L and how long were your horses on it?
Cindy,
What do you mean about her being so close to a huge problem, and why did she need to be taken off of the Thyrol-L?
Thanks,
Kathleen
|
Member:
cheryl
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 8:55 am:
I'm sitting here going duh - how much was I giving her - Kathleen - I'm thinking it was a tablespoon full - either that or there was a little measuring cup in the container - I ordered the 10 pound container - I think from State Line - don't remember for sure - just that it was half as expensive as getting it from the vet. Seems like she stayed on it for a year the first time - didn't make a dent in her neck or the fat pads around her tail head. I never saw any change in her from the Thyro-l - the only thing that really helps her take weight off is exercise - period. I won't put her back on it - will instead just keep starving her and trying to keep her sound enough to get her some exercise.
Cheryl
|
Member:
zarr
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 2:20 pm:
Ellie has 5degree rotation in left front and the vet was worried it would not stop there but it did.She never abcessed either.She had heat and elevated pulse in all 4 but it all subsided without any other rotation. She was on it for 6mos 1 scoop a day after intital loading. I kept her on it another 3 mos. because I'm a coward!
She weighs 900 give or take and that is on less than high quality grass hay, 12 lbs a day, plus what meager pasture grass we have.
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 3:51 pm:
Thanks Cindy and Cheryl.
Anybody else out there who has tried Thyrol-L? I was sure I had read many accounts of people trying it.
Kathleen
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 9:05 am:
My older mare, Sugar, has been on a small amount (one tiny scoop, a teaspoon?) for many years, possibly around ten years, following an episode of fall founder. No, I didn't notice any change in weight, or anything else, but my vet was insistent, so I continued.
The only thing that has helped with the weird fat deposits is the Pergolide that she has been on for a year or so. But it seems to have diminished her appetite, which probably helps the most. (although it makes it harder to get her to eat her hoof supplement and daily wormer--not too enthusiastic). I am able to keep her around a 4 which seems to be problem free.
Erika
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 9:43 pm:
Erika,
It is interesting about your experience with Pergolide helping with the fat deposits. Never heard that before, is that a known benefit of Pergolide? I will add your experience to my 'quest for knowledge' on this subject. There are so many differing scenarios that so far it is impossible to get a feel for whether or not this stuff works because I see no consistency in the dosage, exercise, diet etc of the horses we are hearing about. One thing that seems to be consistent from reading posts and from the above responses, is that in almost all cases, the doses given seem to be in the lower range. Hopefully I will get more responses, or will have the time to monitor other discussions more closely so as to be able to ask questions when it is mentioned. Thanks for your help.
Kathleen
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 10:04 pm:
Kathleen, I believe that appetite suppression is a side effect of pergolide. Sugar's weight loss is not simply from the meds, though. I am careful to keep her food consumption down, but the lumpiness has gone with the administration of pergolide.
She didn't look overweight for years before, but she had odd fat deposits and muscle wasting that goes with Cushing's.
I never noticed that the Thyro-L did anything, but then again, not scientific, by any means.
Erika
|
New Member:
duek
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 12:48 am:
Hello, I have a 12 year old Friesian that has been on Thyrol-L for 5 years. 1 and 1/2 scoops for 2 years, his blood work continued to show low levels. My Vet put him up to 2 scoops for the last 2 years. We tested him again on May 12th and he again, was low. We put him up to 3 scoops of Thyrol -l and he is perfect as of June 22. He also was very anemic during this time. We show Dressage @ 4th level. He just received his Bronze Medal. He really gives his all right out of the box! He was trained by Steffen Peters, (flying lead changes.)
When he was 3 he went to Mexico to shoot the movie...Zorro I don't know if that had an effect on his anemia - thyroid issues??? Water - Stress?
Who knows?
His coat is incredible and his weight is perfect. Now. He is on pasture 6 hours a day. He goes on the Euro- walker 3 days a week for 30 minutes. He is ridden 4 days a week for 45 minutes. He eats tim/ alf 2x a day. He also gets Platinum Perf. and Dynomite minerals. Plus PGR- Dynomite supps. 2 cups a day. He weighs 1290-1300. Alot of muscle. He is 15.2 in height. He lives in So. Cal.
I hope this helps on the Thyrol-L questions.
Please let me know if anyone out there has the same issues with Friesians!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:16 am:
Hello All,
I would like to comment on some of the above statements that seem to be getting a bit off track.
Erika, inappetance is not a side effect of pergolide administration but instead should be considered a toxic effect from overdosage. Indeed improved appetite with proper dosage occurs as the horse starts to feel better. Hard keeping Cushing horses become easier to keep. Concerning the odd fat dispositions this appears to be part of the body's response to the endocrine changes in Equine Cushings Disease which are directly treated with the pergolide.
KU, I would like to point out that serum thyroxine (T3 or T4) levels are not diagnostic for hypothyroidism and therefore not useful in the decision of whether this drug should be supplemented, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Hypothyroidism in Adult Equines.
DrO
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 12:57 pm:
Well, Dr. O, I have seen on numerous websites that it does cause reduced appetite, and my own vet said it does that sometimes. Most say it;s usually when first starting or upping the dosage. But then, Sugar has always been a picky eater so perhaps it affects some individuals more than others.
We started with a very small dose and now she is up to 1mg/day. Would that be enough for toxic effects? Or is she just a delicate flower?
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:14 pm:
Yes Erika and a reduced appetite is an indication you may need to lower the dose as the next step in toxicity is increasing depression. Yes adaption can occur so a more slow rise may prevent it but this is important to understand: pergolide is not a appetite reducing drug. If used to that point you are probably overdosing.
DrO
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:07 am:
Well, then, thanks for the eye opener! I certainly didn't intend to use it as a diet aid--I will talk to my vet about it and see if we need to reduce the dose. I don't recall why we upped it in the first place from .5mg.
Kathleen, sorry about side-tracking your thread.
Erika
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:23 am:
Erika, the article explains the indications for pergolide or at least how I see it. Where you loosing control of one of the symptoms that effects the quality of life of your horse?
DrO
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 11:13 am:
You know, strangely I can't remember why she upped the dosage. She looks and acts like a new horse since we began treating though. I will see if the vet has records of why we increased. Poor Sugar had so many health problems in the last few years that I am having difficulty remembering what went with what!
But she did go from a lumpy, hairy, inflammation-prone drudge with tender feet, to a sleek active girl again. I have even gone back to riding her occasionally. She is 20 years old and I thought she was old before her time. The Pergolide made such a difference but I'll re-read the article and talk to my vet about the possible overdose. Thanks so much.
Erika
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:33 pm:
Erika,
Don't worry about sidetracking. Please keep us up to date on your experience with Pergolide. My mare lost weight when put on Thyro-L/Chromium; but her dose was much different than what I am hearing from others. Her initial dose was 4 tsps (little blue scoop that come with it is 1 tsp). She lost 100 lbs in 3 months and then continued to lose, but much slower and she is now stabilized and vet said she is now right where he wants her. If she continues to lose, we will lower the dose. He (and other widely respected vets) believes that Thyro-L combined with Chromium increases the metabolism which is a problem with EMS horses; but the dose must be higher than previously thought.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 10:06 pm:
Kathleen since I am an owner of easy keepers with 2 definitely being IR these discussions always interest me.
Were you able to get weight off your horse through diet and exercise? Though it was extremely difficult to get the weight off mine I was able to do it rather quickly and safely. Though I do have a CONSTANT, very tiring battle on my hands.
I can't exactly remember when, but a few years ago when I had a different vet he had me give Sam thro-l I believe it was 2 scoops...he is an arabian and probably weighed about #750's he did not loose weight nor did it help his "fat lumps" I quit giving it to him after about 6 mos. with no difference seen.
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 10:48 pm:
Diane,
The weight came off without exercise, just 24/7 turnout. We had already cut her feed intake to the point that we felt that it was not in her best interest to cut it further. She had mildly foundered and was a little sore so she had not been ridden for some time. She lost the weight and now I am able to ride her and she is showing no sign of founder. We battled with her weight for years and were not able to get her to lose enough with just diet/exercise. The only time that exercise really helped is when I was conditioning her for competitive trail. I was working her 4 days a week for 1 to 5 hours/day, mostly at a trot, up and down hills, through water, etc. How many people can devote that much time and effort just to get their horse to lose weight? As you know these Arabians live on air and IMO it is not safe to restrict their diet to a point where they are getting little nutrients. The 2 tsps of Thyro-L, according to my vet, is not enough. I think that it is possible that the lower dose is why so many people who try Thyro-L have had less than good results. I believe that in some/most horses diet and exercise is all that is needed to lose weight, but in some horses that is not enough. I believe that mine is one of those. But I understand not wanting to use a drug to accomplish what may be able to be accomplished with diet and exercise alone. This is one of the reasons I started this thread. I really appreciate those who have posted and hope to see more and hope to be able to devote more time to reading threads on HA and other sites where others are dealing with the same problems that you and I have been dealing with.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 11:12 pm:
Thanks Kathleen, be sure to report your findings here. My vet really wants me to try thro-l on Hank, I will say it is tempting. I wonder if there would be any side effects later on down the line...that is one of my concerns.
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 1:22 am:
Diane,
Per DrO:
"I have not seen any evidence that the drug causes permanent damage and have gradually removed horses that have been on Thyro-L for longer than 4 years without complications."
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 6:47 am:
Kathleen, I do wonder if that was at the higher dosages that seem to work better.
Another concern, maybe Dr.O. can ans. this. Hank can be rather high strung and I wondered if speeding up his metabolism could make that worse. I asked my vet that when he made his suggestion, and he didn't really know, but didn't think so.
Instead of Chromium he is prescribing Cyproheptidine with the thyro-L he said the IR horses he has in his practice are now on pasture with no problems and NOT fat.
I did ask him how much Thro-L I would have to give Hank and he said 2 scoops, but I didn't ask how much Cyproheptidine.
Since your mare's weight is "leveling off"I wonder if that means their bodies start to adjust to it and it will take more eventually to keep the weight off...
Thanks for bringing this thread up, as I have been considering it, but hesitate. Managing these type of horses is very frustrating at times. With the continual worry about founder. If they could live like semi-normal horse I am sure they would be much happier and so would I!
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 9:13 am:
Diane,
Good point about the higher dose and coming off. My vet seems to think that is not a problem. He said that if she continues to lose weight that we will DrOp the dose. She is on pasture and is getting a little more hay when the pasture is not producing due to DrOught, so that is part of why she has leveled off. We no longer have to worry about her being on pasture, but continue to adjust her hay according to quality and quantity of pasture. You probably have more pasture than we have now because we are in a serious DrOught and the pasture only greens up when we get a few days of rain. As to the higher dose, they have just recently found out (through the research of very competent vets) that the lower doses do not work and that is why they recommend the higher dose. My vet has put a few horses on this dose as a test before recommending it to more clients (my interpretation) and he said that all are responding. We were his second client to be put on this dose, because of the long standing problem of trying to get her to lose weight and the slight founder she experienced last year. As I said, she lost 100 lbs in three months during Nov, Dec, and Jan 2008-2009. And in case anyone would think that the winter had something to do with it, remember we are in San Antonio where there essentially is no such thing as winter. I read on the label of the Chromium that it works on insulin in some way (forgot exactly how) and that is probably why they are combining the two. Don't have any info about combining Thyro-L with Cyproheptidine. I will call my vet and ask him if he knows anything about that. As to to Hank being high strung, will ask my vet about that also. I have noticed that Mona is acting more frisky, but when I ride or drive her she is normal. She is 23 and I am glad to see her feel good enough to run and play and actually buck in the pasture, haven't seen her do that in a few years. Could be that she feels better because she is carrying no extra weight. Unfortunately she still has the fat deposits behind the shoulder and at tail head, but her crest is much smaller. Will continue with the 'research' and will keep you posted.
Kathleen
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 5:07 pm:
Thanks Kathleen I would appreciate being kept up to date on this. Hank has never lacked energy...fat or skinny.
I have read somewhere, about the cresty neck and fat pads are some sort of allergic reaction. I wonder if that's where my vet has come up with Cyproheptidine. He keeps up to date on weird things. I can't believe he made the combination on his own, but who knows with him. He was pushing the chromium before he got on the Cyproheptidine kick and said it works MUCH better then chromium with the thro-L.
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 6:29 pm:
Diane, having come fresh from the article on cushing's, I see that cyproheptadine is an alternate treatment for cushing's instead of pergolide. Maybe your vet thinks it would benefit the fat lumps that way?
Erika
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 9:49 am:
The use of cyproheptadine in Cushing's horses is discussed in the Cushings article Diane. Through its interaction with some of the CNS histamine receptors it is anticholenergic and antiserotinergic.
As to the behavioral effects, most antihistamines but particularly first generation ones like this are sedating.
DrO
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:07 pm:
Dr.O I was wondering about the Thyro-L as far as making him a little more "UP"
If it speeds up their metabolism, could it speed up their "motor" too. I just got Hanks "motor" under control and speeding it up isn't a side effect I would appreciate!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:36 pm:
I did not notice horses on Thyro-L where harder to ride or lead.
DrO
|
Member:
pattyb
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 12:11 am:
I don't know if this helps or not but my Arab/Saddlebred, that was diagnosed with Cushing/s when she was 27, lived to be 33 on Pergolide and 1/2 dose Thyro L. The thyroid med was due to her having half of her thyroid removed when she was 24. In the end, it's wasn't Cushing's, no colic, no founder that ended her life......it as a tear in her aorta at the pelvic split. Sadly, there was nothing we could do.....
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 12:20 pm:
Guys,
I'll check all of this out, but probably not be on HA for a while. Got a call this AM and my mother died last night. Just waiting till it is time to go to the airport to go to NM.
Later,
Kathleen
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 12:28 pm:
Kathleen my condolences.
|
Member:
shirl
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 1:49 pm:
Kathleen,
Sending my sympathy in your loss. Prayers will be with you.
Shirley
|
Member:
pattyb
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 1:57 pm:
So sorry Kathleen.
|
Member:
leslie1
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 2:42 pm:
(BIG hugs)
L
|
Member:
canter
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 3:46 pm:
Very sorry for your loss, Kathleen. My best wishes are with you at this difficult time.
Fran
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 4:27 pm:
I am very sorry to hear of your loss, Kathleen.
May your trip to NM be safe.
|
Member:
lilo
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 5:39 pm:
Kathleen,
I am so sorry to hear about your loss.
My sincere condolences,
Lilo
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 9:00 pm:
(((Kathleen)))
|
Member:
erika
|
Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 10:57 pm:
Oh dear, Kathleen, So sorry for your loss
Erika
|
Member:
jowidner
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 12:29 am:
(((Kathleen and Family)))
I'm so sorry. Take care of yourself during this difficult time.
Jo Ann
|
Member:
mjq1
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 8:59 am:
I put my 11 year old Arab mare on Thyro-L for about two months each winter when her weight creeps up. She does lose weight and I feel it is worth keeping her weight down with it when the weather does not allow me to exercise her. I give her one scoop out of the container, it is a little blue scoop. I work her up to two scoops which is the prescribed dose, and when she starts to lose weight, I DrOp it back to one scoop which does the trick.
|
Member:
cheryl
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 9:30 am:
Ah - such a lonely feeling. Prayers are with you Kathleen.
Cheryl
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 11:02 am:
Hi Kathleen,
As you know, I lost my mom a little over a year ago. It is a difficult time. Being with family and friends in NM will be a good curative. I hope you're all able to remember good times together is ease your mom's passing. Many hugs and my condolances.
|
|
|
