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Discussion on Premature Waxing and Milk dripping
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New Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 6:47 am:
My warmblood mare is at 320 days gestation. At day 290 (7 weeks before due date) she started developing an udder which by the end of last week was quite full and hard. I expressed a little milk which looked like skimmed milk. By this Monday (Day 316) she had started to wax up and on Tuesday she was dripping (I could see it clearly on her legs).
My vet advised me to milk off the colostrum and freeze it so that I can bottle feed it to the foal once born. I have milked about 550ml. He performed a rectal and says the foal is alive and kicking but suggested putting her on antibiotics as a precaution against placentitis.
Sabrina (my lovely mare) is 10 years old, in good health and good body condition and has had one foal before, 5 yrs ago.. My concern, in addition to the premature lactation, is that she doesn't seem very big considering her gestation.
Has anyone else had anything similar happen to them. I am really worried that the foal is not thriving? She is showing no other signs of foaling ( belly not DrOpped, softening of croup etc).
From a very worried, first time breeder!!
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Member:
mitch316
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 1:47 am:
Cathy, not to insult your intelligence, but you are sure of her gestation period right? If the Vet checked her out and said the colt was fine and moving ok, I would not worry so much about that. Colts can be small, as a matter of fact my dad's mare just had a colt and noone knew she was pregnant at all, but she is a big horse though, with a small colt. She was in a pasture with a stud, but she was supposed to have been "sterile". As far as the premature lactating goes, milking it is probably a good idea to prevent what they used to call "milk fever" (although that is something totally different in cows) but was basically an inflamed mammary system, and if you've had kids and breast fed, then you know what it feels like to have a full "udder" with no relief.
Dr. O will have to chip in on the disease or problem area, because I haven't seen this. I have seen mares give milk that were not pregnant when they were on lush pasture, called grass milk, or sweet milk. I have been around horses my whole life, and deliver quiet a few now, and those symptoms you are mentioning always meant "times a coming soon", but could be a week or so out. Thats why I asked if you were sure about her gestation dates.
Hey all, can you tell the long winded Pentecostal Preacher/Horse obstetrician/ Psychologist is back with time on his hands to write essays on all the post's, ha!
All joking aside, I am eager to hear Dr. O's theories on this, and until then, expect a colt to fall out anytime...just kidding, I do that too. Don't freak, it sounds like you are doing a wonderful job helping Mom out.
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New Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 5:23 am:
Jesse, Thanks so much for your reassuring post. I am sure about Sabrina's date, she was inseminated only once on Aug 3rd last year and confirmed in foal 2 weeks later. She had a couple more early scans after that and all was fine in terms of growth at that stage.
Yes, I've had kids so I know exactly what you mean by having that full feeling!! I have stopped milking Sabrina now as most of the colostrum has probably gone but I will keep an eye out for mastitis. She is still dripping milk, mainly at night when she lies down I think. It's not a constant stream or anything like that.
When she first started to develop an udder at Day 290, my vet was not concerned as he thought it was related to the unusually lush pasture this year (I'm from the UK). He had seen quite a lot of edema around the udder in many other mares at an early stage. It was only when she started waxing up, then dripping that we became a bit concerned and took the precaution to milk off the colostrum and administer the antibiotics.
Am really looking forward to Dr O's comments on this. As of today (Day 321) she is still looking well, has no temperature and there are no other signs of impending foaling.
I will try and download a couple of photos later so you can see her size!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 7:04 am:
Welcome Cathy,
If I understand your post correctly I don't think you can infer anything from the way the mare looks: some mares carry pregnancies much higher than others. Indeed many foal problems might be associated with a more DrOpped appearance.
I agree that the irregular premature lactation is a concern but this does happen occasionally yet normal foals often are born. If I suspected placentitis I would also recommend antibiotics. I presume the mares vital signs are all normal for this stage of pregnancy?
Concerning the premilking...I have never been much of a fan of this idea. There are as many downsides as possible upsides and I figure when it comes to this particular aspect of birthing mother nature probably knows best. Premilking encourages more milk production. The milk formed well prior to birth may not have a good antibody profile, so it should be tested before given to the newborn. After all if you discourage normal nursing you may actually lessen the intake of IgG during the first 24 hours. A mare streaming out colostrum just prior to giving birth probably should have this collected but even this is uncertain as to whether it makes a significant difference to the foals final IgG concentration.
DrO
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New Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 9:32 am:
Thank you very much for your comments Dr O. I must admit I was concerned about milking her off at this stage but my vet and also the stud vet who inseminated her both advised to do so. I had assumed that as she had very definitely waxed up, that it was colostrum that I was milking off. It was definitely yellow in colour, sticky but not very thick and not as sweet as I had imagined from descriptions that I had read. I should have got some tested before freezing it.
I have stopped milking her now and she is still dripping. Her vital signs were fine when last checked by the vet. She is eating well and had no temperature this morning.
A couple more questions if you don't mind DrO; My vet has also suggested giving my mare Regumate until close to her due date, again as a precaution. However, the stud vet seems to think that it is not worth doing so at this late stage and may actually cause difficulties at birth? Also, given that I have possibly milked off all her colostrum, which may not be of the best quality, have you any suggestions that would ensure the foal, when born, gets the best chance of antibody transfer?
Many thanks, Cathy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 10:05 am:
At 322 days of pregnancy, I tend to agree with the too late to start Regumate but as your conflicting vets show, this is not a firm call.
The colostrum does not enter the milk until just prior to birth so it is very unlikely to have been milked it away. Note that any physical characteristic of the milk can be misleading as to IgG content. Testing the colostrum at birth and then the foal 24 hours later are your best assurance of successful transfer.
DrO
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New Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 4:43 pm:
Many thanks DrO. I will keep you informed of her progress.
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New Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 11:55 am:
Well, believe it or not, Sabrina foaled last night with no problems. The placenta was fine and she seemed to have plenty of colostrum for the foal. Bloods will be taken tomorrow morning for the IgG content - hopefully it will be ok.
We have gorgeous coloured colt which we are going to name Harlequin.
Thank you for your advice and support
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 12:33 pm:
Congratulations, Cathy! They tend to know better than we do and always keep us guessing.
Pictures please!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 12:43 pm:
Great news, Cathy. And yes, please post pictures.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 4:02 pm:
Congrats Cathy on the new baby. Don't you just love those broodmares! Never can tell what they are going to do.
My trotting broodmare had 5 foals, the first was was a little early, the next three were overcooked, late and foaled between 2:30 and 5 in the morning, the mare had all the classic signs before she foaled. The last one no signs of impending foaling, no bag no milk nothing. She foaled at 6:30 at night with no one there out in the field on a breeding farm in the middle of a severe thunderstorm. I got there at 7:30 not expecting anything, did her stall as usual and went to bring her in. She had foaled, the placenta was still hanging out of her and the baby had rolled under the fence into the next field with two other mares(I thought he was dead). The mare was frantic and I couldn't figure out what to do. Luckily, the guy that helped out on the farm, DrOve up the driveway, he got the foal and carried him into the barn, the mare settled down once she realized, no one was going to hurt her baby and the foal was fine. That foal is now 22 years old and was Standardbred Pleasure Horse champion several years in a row.
It just goes to show you, you just never know with them there mares.
Good Luck and post pictures.
Rachelle
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 11:47 am:
Pictures! You folks with new foals have a moral obligation to feed the "foal longing" of those of us who aren't having any this year!
Congratulations!
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 12:02 pm:
You tell 'em SAra!!!
no talk of foals without pics please....its just mean
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 5:56 pm:
Hi Everyone. Thank you for your posts and sorry not to have replied sooner. The colt has taken up more time than I'd imagined. The IgG count was very low so the colostrum was either not there (after the dripping) or very poor quality. We had to do a plasma transfusion today which was quite traumatic for him. Poor chap has seen more needles in his short life than most horses in a life time!!
Any way, he has coped well and hopefully will now have a healthier immune system. We have named him Harelquin Summer Solstice, Harley for short. I promise to post a picture as soon as I work out how to download from my camera! Give me a day or so (the wait is worth it, especially if you like coloured horses).
Thanks everyone.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 7:38 am:
Great to hear he is doing well and you were on top of things. I too like the pictures.
DrO
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 5:48 pm:
Sorry guys, still no pictures. The plasma transfusion didn't lift his IgG very much so he has has had to have two more transfusions today. I am not sure who it was worse for, Harley, his mum or me! I am desperately hoping that the blood test result tomorrow will show a big improvement. He seems very tough so hopefully he will be alright. A bit worrying though.
Will keep you posted
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 6:48 pm:
Hi Cathy, just a word of encouragement: we once had a foal totally rejected by his dam. She never bagged up, and after she foaled she tried to kill him. Luckily, we were near by and able to rescue him. He had to have two plasma transfusions. He not only survived, he thrived. And although born under weight and small, he soon caught up to the other foals his age and grew into a very nice horse. I hope your foal does as good. You're certainly giving him every chance.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:44 pm:
Hang in there, my thoughts will be with you until Harley gets better.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 5:28 am:
Good luck to Harley, his mum and you. Hope the blood test results will be excellent.
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 2:06 pm:
We had good news today - after the plasma transfusions yesterday Harley's IgG level rose to an acceptable level. We can now sit back and enjoy him.
I have tried downloading photos today but even by cropping the pictures I can't get the files small enough - any ideas on what I can do?
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 2:55 pm:
YAY! Im so glad!!
I use photobucket to resize. When you upload your pictures from your computer onto Photobucket, you can resize to medium(320X240). That 'usually' works for me. Sometimes I will crop a tiny bit too.
Cheers
L
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 4:21 pm:
Great news Cathy!
Photobucket is good for pictures, as well you can download a free program call Pix Resizer that works great. Or, I'm always happy to resize and post photos or resize and send them back to so you can. My e-mail address is in my signature.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 5:34 am:
So glad to hear it Cathy!
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 2:08 pm:
Thank you for the advice on posting pictures Sara - I have used Pix Resizer so hopefully it will work now.
Thank you also to all of you that have shared your own stories with me and given me reassurance about Harley. It really helped.
I hope you like the pictures,
Cathy
ps Sabrina has an intermittent brownish discharge from her vulva which I assume is normal after foaling? She doesn't have a temperature and is feeding well. 
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 2:24 pm:
How cute!! I bet this is a PAINT?
Really what in nice foal!
Jos
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 2:37 pm:
Nope Jos, technically he's not a Paint--that's now a specific breed. He's a warmblood cross and if you just want to really get technical, he's a tobiano (coat pattern) or a pinto. Cathy can tell us if he's really a Spotted Sport Horse or something else. I can only imagine how confusing this all is to you! Paints must be of either thoroughbred or quarter horse lineage. Don't worry Jos, many (most?) Americans would refer to him as a paint. Regardless, cute is cute in any lexicon!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 3:16 pm:
I always thought paints and palominos were a color breed and it didn't matter how you got one. I can't see what difference it makes if since usually you can't breed a paint to a paint( or can you) and get a paint or a palomino to a palomino and get a palomino.
A while back I wanted to breed my trotting mare to a paint stallion. So, I looked for one that threw color 100% of the time. I wanted quarterhorse and thoroughbred in the immediate gene pool for the speed factor because I was interested in racing the baby as a non-standard standardbred. I had a very hard time finding what I wanted and ended up selling the mare so it became a moot point.
Any way the baby looks great and so cute. You picked out a great name too!
Good luck
Rachelle
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 3:25 pm:
He is adorable, Cathy. So glad he's doing better!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 3:44 pm:
It's my understanding that when the Paint registry first opened, color was a deciding factor. Now the parents must be registered as either QH, Thoughbred or Paint. And yes, you centainly can breed a Paint to a Paint--it's often done--and get color. Usually, breeding an Overo (coat pattern) to an Overo is iffy because Overos tend to carry the Lethal White gene--we had a thread on that recently. As I understand it, if you breed a palomino to a palomino you may get cremello, but that is another matter. Just to confuse the issue further, a new registry for any breed with a pinto coat pattern is open--Pinto! And a Paint could be double registered Paint/Pinto. And, new QH color rules allow some to be registered AQHA as well as APHA (Paint). The fun never stops..........
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 4:27 pm:
Isn't it funny how so many posts end up trying to figure out how color works?? Cathy, you're quite welcome for the Pix Resizer info. I love that program...free and simple to use.
It was definitely worth the wait for the pictures. What a cute little guy! I glanced back through the thread but didn't see mention of the sire. Who did you breed to? Do you have plans for this guy?
And to answer your other question, yes, in my experience the brownish discharge is normal for a few days after foaling. As long as her vitals are normal and the discharge is not bright red you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Of course, if it lasts longer than you feel it should or you're worried you should always call your vet for advice.
Congrats again on such a handsome guy!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 5:21 pm:
So what are the bloodlines.. ??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 6:49 pm:
Beautiful foal! Although she's a warm blood, can she be double registerd as Pinto? I understand there is a color registry for Pintos.
I agree with the "other Sara" re: the discharge. It's just the mare's body "cleaning house" so to speak. If it continues for more than a few days or becomes red like new blood I'd call the vet.
O.K. Is there ANYONE in the horse world that can figure out the colors! No wonder so many posts come back to color and breeds. I'm going to start another post on Paints and QH because now I'm confused AGAIN!!
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 7:18 pm:
These are the American Paint Horse Assoc guidelines for Paint registry. Sarah
The American Paint Horse's combination of color and conformation has made the American Paint Horse Association (APHA) the second-largest breed registry in the United States based on the number of horses registered annually. While the colorful coat pattern is essential to the identity of the breed, American Paint Horses have strict bloodline requirements and a distinctive stock-horse body type. To be eligible for registry, a Paint's sire and dam must be registered with the American Paint Horse Association, the American Quarter Horse Association, or the Jockey Club (Thoroughbreds). At least one parent must be a registered American Paint Horse. To be eligible for the Regular Registry, the horse must also exhibit a minimum amount of white hair over unpigmented (pink) skin.
Each Paint Horse has a particular combination of white and any color of the equine spectrum: black, bay, brown, chestnut, dun, grullo, sorrel, palomino, buckskin, gray or roan.
Markings can be any shape or size, and located virtually anywhere on the Paint's body.
Although Paints come in a variety of colors with different markings, there are only three specific coat patterns: overo, tobiano and tovero.
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Member:
digger89
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 7:21 pm:
These are the Pinto Horse Association of America guidelines for registry. As you can see, all Paints can be registered as Pinto, but not all Pintos are Paints. Sarah
Just approved by the Pinto Horse Association of America Inc. - Any horse, pony or miniature, currently registered with an approved outcross registry, with documented Pinto characteristics on the outcross papers, is eligible for registry with the PtHA.
In order to simplify the registration process for qualified Pintos, the PtHA registration department will begin evaluating applicants who are already registered with an approved outcross registry and who have documented color on the outcross papers. Documented color such as “Pinto markings,” “belly spots,” or “high leg white” will serve as qualification for PtHA registry in lieu of the required 4 square cumulative inches, provided that all other qualifications (i.e. appaloosa bloodline, mule or draft characteristics restrictions) are met. Undocumented animals and animals with no color documented on their outcross papers will still be required to meet the current PtHA color requirements. Photos are still required.
Examples include any horse accepted into the regular registry of the American Paint Horse Association, any miniature with registration papers that document "Pinto," or any horse registered with the Arabian Horse Association with a belly spot or high leg white documented on the registration papers.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 26, 2009 - 8:17 pm:
Cathy
What a cute, sweet eye he has!Congratz on the beautiful foal.
L
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 5:15 pm:
Gosh, my photos seemed to have triggered a great discussion on colouring.
In fact, Harley is a pure bred Warmblood. Sabrina is a dutch warmblood, whilst the sire, Utah Van Erpekom is Belgium warmblood. It is Utah that carries the Tobiano gene and has passed on his colouring to Harley. He is a well known show jumping stallion in this country ridden by John Whittaker. If any of you are interested Utah has a website:
www.utah-van-erpekom.co.uk
Another couple of photos for you. He is marked on one side but not on the other (apart from a splodge on his bum!).
As for our plans for him, well I hope that he turns out to be as a good as his dad but only time will tell. In the meantime, I'm just going to enjoy the fact that he's now healthy and thriving.
Thanks again for all your posts.
Cathy 
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:01 pm:
He is handsome , and i personally like less white on the paint horses.... so you got perfect, especially with them long stockings..
So what are the bloodlines of your Dutch mare.. ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:24 pm:
Well unless your mare has 'Samber' blood to you have a real odd chance!
Samber is about the only warmblood that [through his mother Tina his father Pericles xx was a dark brown TB]gives paints/pintos
Samber performed Grand Prix Dressage. Rest of the 'Belgian' blood is Holsteiner Landgraf and Landetto[also Landgraf I think] and they usually threw bays
Jos
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:35 pm:
Wow Jos! according to his website/pedigree he has all those you named!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:35 pm:
Cathy, again, he is really knockout!! Color is great, obviously, but he also had beautiful conformation from what I can see in the pictures. And, no wonder, with Utah blood. He is an amazing horse!
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 3:33 pm:
Samber is on Utah's dam lines.
My mare's blood lines aren't so prestigious as Utahs. She is by a dressage stallion called Havidoff (Clavecimbal) but her dam lines are more showjumping - Wolfgang and Farn. I hope Harley inherits her temperament as she is so chilled and friendly - a joy to own.
As for conformation, not sure Harley's forelegs will be perfect but I guess I need to wait a little while before making judgements
Thank you for all your compliments about Harley!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:38 pm:
Wolfgang gave on average more dressage then showjumpers, very good characters to on average] Wolfgangs Father is Farn.
Havidoff and Clavecimbel gave from time to time 'loud'chestnuts, but with these lines it is really extraordinary you getting this color!
Jos
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Member:
cathy33
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Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 11:06 am:
Thank you very much Jos, you are obviously very knowledgeable on the subject - are you a breeder from Holland?
I am very glad, despite the odds, that we bred a coloured horse. That was my hope from the outset
Thanks again
Cathy
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 12:17 pm:
Yes I am Dutch Cathy and though I have bred for the last 15 years mostly Holsteiners I had Dutch mares to. If you want to know more about the dams side just ask, resonable chance I will know something if only the'gossip' about the lines
Jos
PS I personally like the color of mummy very much, it's MY favourite!
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