HorseAdvice.com Equine & Horse Advice: EMS and the cersty neck experiment

Horseadvice.com

Site Menu:

Horseadvice.com

Join Us!

Horse Care

Equine Diseases

Training and Behavior

Reproduction

Medications

Reference Material

This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:

HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Equine Metabolic SynDrOme and Insulin Resistance »

	Discussion on EMS and the cersty neck experiment
Author	Message
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 6:59 pm: Sorry this is going to be long. Another member asked on a different thread if a cresty neck meant a horse was going to founder. I find this cresty neck can tell a lot of things and predisposition to founder is definitely one of them! I have 3 horses with cresty necks in varying degrees, when their necks all the sudden gets bigger and harder (literally overnight) something must change...for me it is taking them off pasture. Interesting enough when I over slept and left the horses on pasture longer than they should be their necks got harder than rocks and grew overnight...they still aren't back to their "normal crestiness" and both were sore footed when the crest was hard. I can not get rid of that ugly crest of Hank's no mater what I do. It will become softer and somewhat smaller, but never goes away....even when he is in good weight. Sam's on the other hand will disappear when he is in good weight and not on pasture...wonder what the difference is there???? Anyway hubby and I had to go to a farm store today and when I saw something it reminded me of what an old horseman had told me about 20 yrs. ago. He said if I give them this stuff the cresty neck will go away and their metabolism will be better. SOOOOOOOOO for an experiment I decided to get some...nothing harmful. That man always was ahead of his time. I am going to take pics of Hanks neck as he is on this stuff( a certain mix of minerals) and see if it makes a difference. I measured the circumference of crestist point of his neck..43.5in UGHHH. I weighed him...#954's... not ungodly heavy for him but would like to see him closer to #900's. His diet and exercise will remain as consistent as one can be with all the variables. The minerals have NO molasses or add sugar stuff...straight mineral and boy did he go after them today! Way more than the other 2. The old horseman (Henry) told me I would see a change in 1-2 weeks in the neck. As you know I love horse experiments 1st day of mineral neck pic.(I hate that neck!) BC pic he is not thin(isn't possible), but not fat either....except for that FAT neck
Member: lilo	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 7:22 pm: I'll be interested in this experiment also. My mare has a cresty neck, always, even when the ribs are showing slightly. Lilo
New Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 7:29 pm: Yea, let me know. Tango is heavy now, and lame, don't know from what, but not founder as far as I know. But he has a big thick neck to begin with, and I've been checking his cresty neck also while massaging him (think his shoulders/neck are sore, not leg/hoof issues, never mind, another whole story in itself!) But I'd love to hear what you see happens, and what minerals you used. I do believe everything needs to be in balance so I've been giving the Sho Glo since you wrote about it...is this in addition to that? Keep us updated.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 8:36 pm: Angie, I took away all other supps. except the mares joint supp. and Hanks biotin. Also don't rule out a mild case of laminitis/hoof issues they are very good at looking like shoulder/neck issues....especially if he is fat. Hank tried to warn me about his laminitis before it blew into a full blown founder, he walked "sore shouldered" for quite awhile first. That's what my horses looked like when they were on grass too long the other day, not at all like the classic founder, just a little "stiff legged" like a sore shoulder....I know that walk well now! Not saying that's your problem...just a FME. I will let you know how the experiment goes along, and if it works will reveal Henry's recipie. If it would shrink to half the size it is I'd be happy!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 9:34 pm: I do want to re-iterate that I think diet and exercise is the most imortant component to controlling IR, with these type of cresty neck horses. I do KNOW that just minerals are not going to help the cresty neck, I HAVE been dieting and exercising Hank on a regular basis....just hope the minerals will help me! Here is an article in the AMJ. VETERINARIAN SEES CRESTY NECK AS A MAJOR WARNING SIGN If a horse you're shoeing seems to be in relatively good bodyweight condition, but still has a cresty neck — you may want to take it as a red flag for possible laminitis. Donald Walsh, a veterinarian with Homestead Equine Hospital in Missouri and founder of the Animal Health Foundation, says he's become more and more convinced that the neck is a key indicator of equine metabolic synDrOme that — with its effects on insulin levels — has been linked to the development of equine laminitis. Horses with EMS typically have excessive hair growth, a cresty neck, and excessive balls of fat in the rump and along the back. Diet and exercises are keys to controlling the condition before the onset of laminitis, but Walsh says he's come to believe some horse owners don't go far enough. "The more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that a cresty neck is the real key," he says. "You need to have that horse lose weight until you see a notch in the neck right in front of the withers." Walsh says getting the neck to that point may well mean that the horse loses a great deal of weight in other areas — perhaps to the point where some would believe the horse is too thin. However, he says that may be because we're used to seeing horses who are too heavy to begin with. Walsh also stresses the need to combine diet and exercise for horses. "Just weight reduction along won't do it," he says. "You have to get that horse out to exercise." Walsh and other veterinarians discussed management of equine laminitis during the Fourth International Conference on Laminitis and Diseases of the Foot, held last November in West Palm Beach, Fla. More on that discussion is included in an article in an article in the May/June issue of American Farriers Journal. For information on subscribing to American Farriers Journal, call us at 1-800-645-8455 or click on the "Subscribe" link on the home page of our Web site at www.americanfarriers.com, or click here.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 20, 2009 - 11:58 pm: Dr.O. I went to look in Hanks weight watcher diet thread to see if his neck had that notch at the withers when he was fatter and crestier and it wouldn't work...got a server error, everything else seems to work. https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/190163.html
Member: pattyb	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 12:19 am: Ooooooh Diane.....a mystery. Two, no three things came to mind as I read your posts: The lady that created Quiessence has a printout about the connection between cresty neck/laminitis also. I also remember reading somewhere months ago that with IR the crest is not just a fat deposit but also lymph fluid....which one takes longer to rid of I don't remember. Ziggy's crest was the last to go and I had to get him to a perfect weight to get there. He is looking real good, you can feel his ribs but not see them unless he turns away from you. With all the rain we've had, I'm weight taping him once or twice a week to keep him there. My third thought was magnesium but then again, that would be too obvious. Hmmmmm, what could it be? (Tapping fingers on chair.) Verrrrry innnteresting. Waiting with great anticipation.....good luck.
New Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 8:16 am: Diane, I am not ruling out anything with Tango's lameness. I got some pics and questions to my hoof gal in Alaska, and she did point out a few things with his hoofs/sole/and shoulder angle. I do believe "from the hoof up" causes so many problems, and I do consider myself as still green on the trimming. The learning never stops,and not just with hoofs! Thanks to the posts and pictures of Hank, I am very concerned about everyone's body weight, and the lush grass issue! Why are we never content?Too much grass, grass is dead, hay is too rich, hay is too dusty, hay is half brown...when did horse keeping become so dang complicated? It seemed we used to let them graze, and then throw some hay as needed. With knowledge comes power...or is it with knowledge come ulcers, anxiety, and insomnia? (Sorry, too much sleep last night, finally got to go on a nice ride! LOL!)
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 8:25 am: Patty, Sam my arab gelding cresty neck will go back to "normal" also when he is in "good weight" Hanks will not go back to normal, or even close. I can feel his ribs easily right now. He just seems to be very IR as far as his body is concerned. He is way more prone than the other 2 to founder, he has the fat on the tail head, butt, and neck...yet the rest of his body is "normal" Surprisingly enough he is the one that is really hitting the mineral almost like he is obsessed. There is nothing sweet in it. Like every good horse owner I had to taste it and it is not good tasting, it don't even smell good! I am not giving it to him free choice at this point, because he likes it a little too much but he is getting plenty. Yes MG. is a component to this mineral mix but only 2% Tho I have tried quiessence and remission (which is mostly Mg. with chromium) and had not seen any difference in his neck OR fat butt! Henry's mix is based a bit on grass tetany in cattle
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 10:26 am: Diane, I went and looked at the file on the server and the only thing remarkable about it is its size, it is big and there may be a setting on our new server preventing external access to such a large file. I will contact Mike tomorrow and put him on this. In the meantime do you have the mapped location you can put up? Concerning your experiment I would suggest you also get a girth reading to help correlate body weight changes and account for other factors. I do think there is some confusion above between the relationship of the crest and founder: the crest is not responsible for the founder but indicative of obesity or perhaps even a horse that at one time was obese therefore may have Equine Metabolic SynDrOme. Though now weight controlled the insulin resistance of EMS predisposes to founder particularly from rapidly growing cool season grasses. I have read though never seen documented that the hard crests that do not resolve with diet are do to saponification of the long standing fatty tissue. This saponification makes breaking the fat down harder or impossible. DrO
Member: vickija	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 11:18 am: I want to thank Dr. O for leading me to this thread. I was the one who asked the question initially about a hard crest and the onset of laminitis. My horse coincidently looks VERY MUCH like Diane's horse. She is a Morgan and very cresty. When I got her 2 years ago she was morbidly obese. Fortunately she has been sound with no bouts of laminitis. BUT it really scares me and I have been trying to get her down to about a "5" in condition. Right now she is about a "6" with fatty deposits on her rear and that cresty neck. Her last weight reading was 974. I would like to get her to around 900 but it seems that the weight has stopped coming off. I would love to know what the mineral mixture that you are using is Diane. I didn't see the formula posted did I miss it? Thanks Vicki J
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 11:19 am: Dr.O. I hope this is what you mean by the mapped location Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Fat or Obese Horse Nutrition..Hanks weight watchers Diet. I understand what you are saying about the crests relation to obesity. What I don't understand is why some obese horses never get one??? And why do some go away and some don't as in Hanks case?? I personally think it is related to IR in some fashion. Sam my arab is IR too. He has had a crest longer and sometimes bigger then Hanks yet his will go back to "normal" or at least very close. I did weigh Hank #954... is that what you mean by measuring the girth measurement? I know that a crest does not CAUSE founder, but can be a good indicator of things to come I find the correlation between grass tetany in cattle and spring/fall founder in horses interesting to say the least, as reported grass tetany is a bit of a metabolic upset in cattle. Hank has been trying to bite his salt block off rather than licking it. If anyone is interested in grass tetany in cattle and horses here is an article. https://beefmagazine.com/mag/beef_dont_short_salt/index.html If I could PLEASE ask a favor...My title to this thread has crest mispelled(cerst) and it really bugs me Could you possibly change it???? Thanks
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 11:39 am: Victoria, I didn't reveal the ingredients, just for the fact I don't know if they work and don't want to encourage anyone. If I believe they help Hank I will post them for sure, but until then I feel uncomfortable doing so.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 8:36 pm: Diane, What exactly is grass tetany? I am not sure from the article. Interesting article, maybe in time we'll know that in the spring we give horses this and that mineral, summer/dry months, we change, and change supplementation again in the winter. Right now, we have vitamins for grass hay, and for alfalfa. Can't wait to hear your results!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 21, 2009 - 11:11 pm: Angie Grass Tetany — Hypomagnesemia. Basically low Mg levels in blood serum caused by "stressed mostly cool season grass" From what I understand of it, it is much more complicated then just low levels of Mg. It is the total mineral upset that leads to the low MG level. Grass tetany is described as a “metabolic” disorder instead of a nutritional disorder because grass tetany is not necessarily associated with a dietary deficiency (low Mg levels in the diet), but instead, occurs when there is not enough Mg circulating in the blood and cerebro-spinal fluid for the animal to function normally. Frequently, there are factors that can reduce absorption of Mg into the blood stream, despite seemingly adequate Mg levels in the feed or forage. For example, Mg absorption is inhibited by high concentrations of K and N, with K being the dietary factor recognized as having the greatest and most consistent effect on depressing Mg absorption in cattle Seems many things can lead up to this, including the type of grass, fertilization, ect. I was telling Hubby about Henry and his mineral theory based loosely on grass tetany. I was very surprised that Hubby hadn't even heard of grass tetany, which is not uncommon around here. Most farmers around these parts provide free choice minerals or mineral tubs and loose salt to their cattle specifically for this reason...hubby got an education today because of Hanks neck Granted cows and horses are definitely different since cows are ruminants, but if lush grass can effect a cow like that I guess it isn't a far reach that horses metabolism could be upset by it as far as mineral imbalance also. We already know that it can cause founder, colic, dihareha ect. because of digestive upsets and fermentation in the hindgut. I can't remember everything Henry told me anymore it was so long ago, but the grass tetany thing does stick in my head, along with mineral imbalances. He swore these minerals would stop a founder cold in it's tracks once the horse was on them for awhile, of course I don't think this is probably true. BUT he was known as the local fellow to take your horse to if it had severely foundered and would not come out of it. He honestly was a legend in his time, people brought their foundered horses to him from 100's of miles away, leave them for a month and take home a sound horse, he didn't charge anything, nor did he touch their hooves.That guy knew more about horses then I could ever dream of knowing. He would not tell his secret of the "cure" I think he enjoyed being a legend LOL. He did tell me of the minerals tho. BTW he owned Hanks sire....explains a lot don't it He was a small time TB racer. Owned a string of stallions, could "break a colt in one day...gently...amazing man!
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 8:51 am: Diane, the only conditions that cause hypomagnesemia in the horse (a very rare cause of clinical signs) that I am aware of would be: hypercalcemia from any cause prolonged inappetance as might be seen in hospitalized colic surgery horses blister beetle poisoning DrO
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 9:06 am: Diane, I find that really interesting! I would love to see an in depth study done on what you wrote about. That guy was on to something, and he probably couldn't explain it in technical terms but I wouldn't be surprised if some time it becomes common knowledge and is accepted with Scientific backing. The only thing is, he may have done something he never told anyone, and the missing link is very important to the results. I am thinking that the difference between horses and cows as far as circulating Mg in blood; that the cows being ruminants wouldn't matter. Both horses and cows would get the minerals from the food, and perhaps both would have Mg levels depressed from the N & K the same because it has nothing to do with digestion? Off subject a bit: Your story reminds me of the story my mentor told me about him trying to develope a timed feeding device for horses. He actually worked with some company on different types. I see they have those timed feeders for hay now; he was just before his time on the idea, and never will get any credit for it. Except I remember everytime I see an ad for one!
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 12:35 pm: DrO. I have to wonder if the reason they suggest Mg for IR horses is the same reason as the grass tetany in cows. I have used supplemental Mg. for the horses and never have seen much of a difference. The newer research..in grass tetany seems to be that it isn't really a lack of mg that causes the problems but the over abundance of K in "lush" stressed grass causing the Mg. to plummet. Being an owner of cattle, I have to say they are much more tolerant of things then horses. It does make me wonder if an offset of the mineral imbalances in horses during the lush time of years would help prevent "metabolic" upsets...that may lead to IR, founder ect. As I said before I REALLY wonder why some horses can be obese and not have cresty necks and never founder on lush grass. There has to be a difference in something. If it is their metabolic makeup it can't be a far reach that they are getting the needed minerals. I have a neighbor that has 2 horses on the lushest pasture you could find, they are NOT exercised or dry lotted ever. She keeps a mineral tub in front of them tho, they aren't even fat! Hubby even commented one day about why doesn't she have problems like me?? The other neighbor with horses, just put 2 of them down because of unrelenting founder. YES they were fat and not exercised. Mine are not obese, just because I dry lot them or they would probably be buried by now too! Something is strange there, I don't know if it is because the neighbor with no problems feeds mineral OH and loose salt...but it surely makes a person wonder. Both set of horses are less than a mile from me and matter of fact the one with no problems actually is using a piece of our property for her horses. I know if I put mine in her pasture they would go 4 feet up in the air and never be able to walk again! When I kept my horses on 40 acres (all ages) and body types I never dry lotted them, matter of fact when I kept them on the east side of town I never had problems like this with founder and IR. Exercise or not! When I moved them to the west side(same horses)...I rented 2 places before buying this one. The founder started immediately almost. This side of town has been farmed and replanted with "newer" variety of grasses that tend to put weight on horses. Lots and LOTS of clover, and rye grass. I don't know it's all kind of strange, but I can't rule out mineral imbalances as a part of the problem..especially with the latest research.
Member: juliem	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 2:14 pm: I've seen cows down with grass tetany. They were nursing calves and on lush, lush pasture. They go down and don't get up. They can give them a shot and I may well be wrong, but I think it's calcium?? At any rate, that fixes them immediately. When that starts to happen in the spring, they quickly get some mineral mix in front of the cows free choice. This is from observation, not experience or knowledge on my part.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 5:31 pm: Well I am sure this has to be coincidence, but it is hot AND humid. Flash has had severe anhyDrOsis for as long as I can remember, she doesn't sweat a DrOp. A few years ago I even posted in here about it and had anyone tried OneAC. I tried One AC on her and it did not work, I really worry about her in this weather, turned the fan on before I left this morning. I just got home and thought I would hose her off....She is dripping sweat!. SO since Flash was sweating I thought what the heck I'd take a pic of Hanks neck and measure it, and weigh him since I was out there. He is/was sweating so I don't know if that could make a difference in his neck circumference or not. 4ins. had come off the circumference?? his weight was about 10 lbs. less, I measured it with his head flexed the same way as the other day...I could not get it to the Sat. measurement no matter how he held his head...i tried really hard! Here's a pic from today, it looks about the same to me, but this is a little closer up, he wasn't real willing to stand still with the flies and heat. I know it is way too early to tell if it is coincidence, on Hanks neck, but that mare starting to sweat is SOOOO great. Just strange! Neck comparison side by side...I tried to get his head in the same position...it is VERY close. There are many, many variables present here, but I am starting to be a tiny bit hopeful Dr.O. if I started them on the minerals and loose salt on Sat. would it already be in their systems??? Could he sweat off at the minimum 4 ins?
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 6:48 pm: Diane, Don't you just love experiments that work? Hanks crest does look smaller and less thick. I also think you may be onto something with the minerals. My racemare never sweated. She could jog or tow 6 miles a day and never sweat. It did not seem to bother her racing performance so I did not think anything of it. About two months ago, about the time she went on lasix, I started supplementing her with Dr.O's recipe for electrolytes ( 1 tbls. 3 times a day of 1/2 table salt and 1/2 lite salt). I noticed that she was sweating lightly. I then found a very large container of Hoof and Coat formula( formerly Tracelytes from Springtime Inc). The mixture contains dichyomous earth(SP?, sea salt, kelp and a whole bunch of other minerals. I replaced Dr. O's formula with this ( only because I had it already and didn't have to pay for it or remember to buy the ingredients). Any way, this stuff has worked miracles. She is now sweating normally, drinking an appropriate amount of water and does not need to be "jugged" with electrolytes after she races (normal procedure for horses racing on lasix). She is also maintaining her weight, her coat looks great and she is racing well. She also has a free choice mineral salt block in her stall that she never touched even before I started her on Dr. O's recipe or the tracelytes. I wonder, is there a test that one could do to find out what minerals individual horses need. I know testing can be done on the hay, grass and feed. Or do you base the supplementation on the deficiencies in the diet after they have been tested? Keep up the experiment and keep us posted. Maybe you've stumbled upon a cure. Stranger things have happened. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 9:54 pm: Rachelle, I think to test for minerals in the blood or serum is pretty expensive for some anyway. I think most people test their forage and go from there. I have to wonder if there isn't a possibility that if they aren't balanced or if enviromental factors can come into play as far as uptake. I just got done standing there looking at that mare in amazement, I was so dreading this week for her as it is suppose to be very hot and humid. The interesting thing is we have had a couple of hot and humid days before I started the mineral, the boys were sweating, but she was NOT. Another interesting tidbit is Hanks eye that always runs no matter the season, no matter what I do, was not running tonight All conjecture as Dr.O. calls it, and I really can't believe being on these minerals for a couple days could help all these ailments. Maybe the stars are aligned right today Time will tell as always
Member: leslie1	Posted on Monday, Jun 22, 2009 - 10:32 pm: Interesting, very interesting.
Member: canderso	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 7:23 am: I don't know if you have access to scientific articles or not but you might want to read: Dietary management of obesity and Insulin resistance: Countering risk for laminitis. Raymond J. Geor and Patricia Harris (Vet Clin Equine vol 25 (2009) pages 51-65.) There are some very interesting points made about linkages of obesity to laminitis, insulin resistance, and about supplementation with magnesium and chromium...
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 8:26 am: Diane the answer as to whether IR in horses in similar to grass tetany in cows is a simple no. They are not related and symptoms and pathophysiology of the two in no way related. Grass tetany in cows, like hypomagnesemia in horses is a disease of the central and peripheral nervous system with mental changes and weakness noted. I see no relation to insulin resistance. As to the difference between obese and thin horses on the same feed / work load there is a difference: they have genetically determined and environmentally modified different metabolic rates. Horses similar to humans have a wide range of metabolisms. But this is all discussed in the articles on Nutrition, Obesity, and EMS. As to measuring minerals, actually most minerals are easily measured but interpretation of what the levels means a bit tougher with some minerals. For more on this see the article on Minerals and the table on toxicity and deficiency. It helps with understanding whether blood levels correlate with symptoms. CherylA, we discuss all of these subjects in the article on Equine Metabolic SynDrOme associated with this discussion. I would note that the generally positive view you read about magnesium and chromium supplementation in the literature is because while you can measure scientifically significant effects in the lab and perhaps across large populations, these effects are not clinically significant to the individual, at least in the animal that is not deficient. While experimenting with magnesium is fairly safe and cheap, chromium is expensive and experimenting a huge waste of money, in my opinion. And that opinion is based on I have spent long hours researching this subject in both the human and equine medical literature and having type 2 diabetes (Human Metabolic SynDrOme) myself. Besides the review of the literature I have experimented personally with both of these minerals, basically dosing and testing my own blood to see the results. The results were no measurable change in fasting blood sugar levels over several months so I have discontinued both of these. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 1:54 pm: Thanks Dr.O. I know grass tetany and IR in horses are not even close. My point basically is how mineral imbalances MAY metabolically effect animals and grass tetany being one of them. I still am curious to see how this plays out with MY horses. I don't know if they have mineral imbalances, but their diet surely lacks since they are such easy keepers. It usually only consists of stemmy hay that isn't the greatest and a handful of alfalfa pellets. As far as Mg. and grass tetany in cows, I find it interesting that K is such a big player in the scheme of things, so as far as Mg. and Chromium supplementation I wonder if the K levels also shouldn't be looked at....especially when horses are on stressed OR lush grass.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 23, 2009 - 9:19 pm: I guess the K theory and salt theory as far as horses and Mg uptake seems to be the same. Interesting thing is whenever I have had any of my horses blood tested the K was always high...the mg low normal. I even asked Dr.O. once about the high K levels regarding Flash I think. I BELIEVE he said it was a fairly normal finding in blood tests, but don't remember the reason. Article about horses and K, Mg. Salt, Sounds a lot like the grass tetany article on the cows?? https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/health/magnesium-121.shtml
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 6:55 am: Similar except for one thing Diane: not one piece of proof is offered of a nutritional magnesium deficiency of horses on otherwise good quality spring grass is presented. Unlike cattle where the problem is commonly reported, there is not one report in the scientific or veterinary literature over the last 40 years that I can find. In fact there is not one report of a nutritional deficiency of Mg during any feeding circumstance. Horses that are severely deprived of proper nutrition and cachectic do not display symptoms of magnesium deficiency. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 7:49 am: Dr.O Would it not be possible for Mg to plummet occasionally when horse are on stressed/lush pastures without ever knowing? "pasture associated laminitis" I know "typical" signs of Mg deficiency are VERY VERY rare in the horse, but would it not be possible for lack of Mg. when horses are on stressed/lush pasture to mess with their metabolism at that time...as the articles say on both cattle and horses it isn't really a "nutritional" lack of Mg.it is the presence of too much K and not enough sodium that keeps the Mg. from being absorbed...when the conditions are "ripe" Cattle do not show signs of "nutritional" lack of Mg either until that time of year when they can not absorb it due to too much K and not enough Na. I find all of this rather interesting and will leave it alone, but remember science is born of conjecture Thanks
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 11:50 am: I wonder if the fact that we add fertilizers, weed killer, and other chemicals to the soils which horses graze might not have something to do with the problems with metabolic disorders? Any feedstuff which horses consume most likely have had chemicals used on them or in the soil at one time. Organic grazing anyone?
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 4:01 pm: When you ask is it possible, the answer is yes. But it is also possible that aliens from the planet Founderis are coming down to the planet and zapping the horses in the pasture with their foundering ray. This may be less likely than your scenario but I will point out that horses with known hypomagnesemia don't have founder as a symptom. Neither is founder a symptom described in cattle with grass tetany. Science and witchcraft are both born in conjecture. The difference is we look for proof of our conjectures in science. Currently I see little proof of the idea that hypomagnesemia is a important process in spring grass founders but I could be wrong. While researching this I became interested what is the difference in cattle and horses and why pastures that induce grass tetany in cattle do not in horses and came across this statement in Lewis's Clinical Equine Nutrition on why this is: "Horses are able to absorb magnesium from the bowel far more efficiently than cattle". The numbers he gives show about a 2 to 3 times greater ability to absorb magnesium. For this and other reasons the magnesium requirements are much lower for horses. Angie, I think the simplest explanation is the same one we have for humans with EMS. We line in a time where a very rich supply of relatively cheap nutrients are available and those with a genetic predisposition to easy keeping suffer from our bounty. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 6:59 pm: Ok DrO. I understand all you are saying...BUT you are not quite addressing my question It is not a "nutritional" problem. If horses are on a pasture that lack Mg. especially at the "lush" time of years it would seem it is quite possible that the high levels of K and lack of NA could interfere with any Mg. available, if said horse is on these stressed/lush pastures. Why is it EMS horses can tolerate warm season grasses...and not "lush" grass...I DO understand carbs come into play here AND exercise. BUT wouldn't it not be a good idea to give them an added boost with the proper minerals at the time grass is stressed. Believe me I would never take the chance of turning the horses out in "spring" or "fall" lush grass...Minerals or Not!! However this brings me back to the cresty neck. WHY do EMS horses necks become very stiff and hard overnight, YES overnight if they have had too many carbs???? IT CAN'T be the fat doing this or could it??? as research is now showing that fat is almost an organ in itself, with a mind of it's own Who'd a thought that a few years ago??? Do I think minerals can CURE EMS well NO. I just wonder if they might help give us a fighting chance. Do I think genetics come into play here, well probably, if not genetics, the way of the family of horses life style anyway. Also your statement to Angie about living in a time of bounty...At this point I have to say my horses are practically starved(compared to "normal" horses anyway and they still exhibit IR symptoms...Hank is now exercised fairly regularly one way or the other, but he still has that BIG neck and lumpy butt He is actually worse than the other 2 who are pretty sedentary (one being his mother) One more question and I PROMISE I will leave this go What is the basis of which people are now feeding Mg. and Chromium to their horses, I can't believe someone pulled it out of the air. Those supplements are VERY popular. I don't know if the Mg. supplementation alone is the key tho(the formula I am using doesn't have a lot). It sure seems from the articles I posted above that K and NA are actually bigger players. Horses can't absorb Mg. when too much K is available and not enough NA??? I don't pretend to know what the ans. is, it is all conjecture....with a little bit of science thrown in, as it would SEEM to be fact that too much K would be a Mg. inhibitor and NA could help with absorbtion. As an aside we used to have a terrible time with pink eye, in the cows/calves. The guy at the feed store and the vet said to give them free choice minerals and loose salt and we wouldn't have a problem anymore. The next year we went this route...we had no more pinkeye and still don't to this day, I do not know the reasoning behind this(other than minerals are an immune booster)...didn't even bother to ask, to tell you the truth I thought it was kind of stupid as we know that pinkeye is caused by an infection usually caused by the cow getting grass seeds, thistles, a scratch what ever in their eyes. Old timers usually have a reason for the things they do and should not always be discounted....as silly as it may seem. Hanks eye still remains clear, the old girl is still sweating....now if that neck would go down...it seems to be changing it's "form". Hank is getting the same exercise... actually a little less due to the heat and humidity this week the same hay, and is allowed to graze a couple hours a day, so nothing much has changed in that aspect. I am going to measure his neck over the weekend and see if anymore has come off the circumference. I can not give him the mineral free choice I found out, he will not leave it alone!!! He will lick that instead of eating hay!!(they have ALWAYS had a mineral and salt block in front of them) The other 2 seem to eat about3- 5 oz. a day of it. Hank licks up his 6oz allotment soon as I give it to him...I hope I have a pic of his fat, lumpy butt somewhere before his supplementation, I do think I see a change in that a bit. Somedays I do wonder if there isn't founder fairies in this area! I just discovered this winter that we have snow fairies! Thanks
Member: pattyb	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:12 pm: Diane......I'm fascinated and following your thread with great interest. In the mean time, your post about Hank eating too much of the minerals reminded me of a story with my old now deceased gelding. He apparently had a thing for those salt licks with a fly larvacide in them and I didn't know it until I found a drunk Buck the next morning....as in "holy smokes Buck, what did you get into to?" Then, I saw the lick was 2/3 gone. I called the vet and he said the additive could have a sedating affect when consumed in large quantities. Needless to say, I threw it away after that little episode. Jeeze Louise, a drunk horse.....from a larvacide lick.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 8:25 pm: Diane, Have I ever told you I love your posts, scientific or not. You think like me. I have no hesitation to try something if it could possibly work. I know soon enough if it does or doesn't. Luckily for me I have not had a founder or laminitis problem, my horses are out on grass about 90 % of the time, but none of them are overly fat even the one that does nothing but hang out in the paddock all day ( 19 years old) Since your horses did not have a problem on one side of town, but did when you moved, then your reasoning for a mineral imbalance makes much sense and the fact that Hank seems to need a higher amount than the others makes sense as well. I think I would split his dose to 2 X's a day and slowly increase the amount you give him to see at what point he stops being so greedy about it. He must think he needs it or I don't think he'd go after it as readily as he is, but I wouldn't want to give it to him free choice either because he could overdose himself. He may also be needing more because he has been working harder than the other two. Have you asked your neighbor what she is feeding besides the mineral tub? What is Hank's breeding, I know Flash is his mother, but I am not sure if you posted their breeding in any of your previous posts. I have watched my own horses who are not restricted out on lush pasture and what I have noticed is that they do not just eat and eat and eat. They come up for air and just stand around swatting at flies and resting. They also have hay that they eat even with the good grass. Its like a smorgasbord to them a little of this and a little of that and once in a while they'll take a slug of water. I think this is the way it is in the wild, they eat whatever happens to be handy. I try and remember this when I deal with my horses, even though they happen to be in a racing situation. I can do what I can to try and protect them, but I have to remember they are horses too. I think if your mineral experiment works with Hank you should try to go back to how you handled them on the other side of town. I think you will have much happier horses and you will quit worrying about how much grass they get. I think Hank is really trying to tell you something and as long as you keep an eye on his weight and make sure he gets what his system needs, he will be fine and so will the rest of the crew. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 9:36 pm: Thanks I was hoping I wasn't driving everybody nuts...including Dr.O. Flash and Sam were kept on the east side of town for years with no problems...Hank was born on the west side of town...the 1st year I had moved them. Hank exhibited a tendency towards IR as a 2 yr. old. I had 3 horses founder the next summer, 2 had to be put down...one was Sam.... who became lumpy and bumpy and weird. He became so weird, that I had the vet out...before he foundered and told him I didn't know what was wrong with him, but he just isn't right! Looking back at this time I now know it is when he became IR. He got the cresty neck, fat butt, goopy eyes, he practically changed overnight. Same with Flash, she had actually been a bit of a hard keeper, even on lush grass(on the east side of town). Their entire bodies changed in a years time. They both got exercised a lot back in those days. The farm I kept them at is less than a mile from here. The reason I joined HA back in 2000 was because of a mare that foundered and asked if a plant could cause founder...I caught a lot guff back then for that. Was told it was because they were fat and I was basically a bad horse keeper. They were fat, they were exercised daily, and had NEVER been fat before! and I had never had that problem on the east side of town, heck I even grained them over there! There was one poster who started talking about stressed grass and rotational grazing all of that was new back then. From the day I had owned horses and ponies (12 yr. old) they were always out in pasture 24/7...why couldn't they be now??? I changed my management over here on the west side (which was mined for lead) where we live now there was a mine called "widow maker" this whole area for miles (on the west side of town) was mined in the "old days" then turned into LUSH pastures to graze cattle. I don't know something is just not right. The neighbor girl just gives her horses the mineral tub, loose salt, and 24/7 pasture. In the winter she feeds them mostly alfalfa. Here is my post from 2000...retrospect.
Member: kpaint	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 24, 2009 - 10:08 pm: I also much enjoy your posts Diane! My husband is intrigued with diet for cervids (we raise elk). Minerals in the soil/forage impact the antler growth in a big way. Of course quality/quantity of forage also...and genetics... He puts out different feed plots for white tail; he enjoys tinkering. Diva Mare will not graze 24/7 if out on pasture much like rtrotter posted, but the two Haflingers will hoover the grass until none is left if they are left out. Once two years ago while I was away, the caregiver left them out for almost four days on lush grass. Egads, they both looked like very pregnant mares when I got back. I was really worried, but they are hardy souls. Neither foundered. IMHO domesticating horses ruined many of their "natural inclinations" about grazing and so many of them don't know anymore "What Is Good For Them"! I base this sweeping generalization on watching the two Haflinger geldings who will eat anything at any time and are not finicky AT ALL. LOL Last winter a worker left a wagon load of STRAW too close to the 4' wall which the Haflingers would reach across...they ate every bale they could reach...ate a hole into a bale and nosed the baling wire off...and continue to eat. I was gone for a week. Couldn't believe neither one got sick eating that much straw. I was gone Sat - Tues night this past week and my daughter fed a little heavy on the hay and all three gained weight. I'm going to have to invest in a scale since others feed when I'm away and no one seems to be able to judge the weight of a flake... Good luck with your experiment, thanks for posting. Doubt if my post helps you any at all, but at least you know I enjoy your posts!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 12:11 am: Have any of you ever tried leaving bins with an assortment of minerals available for your horses? I've heard of that being done, a stable about an hour from me does that, and from what I've heard, the horses may seem to take a lot from some bins, but soon it levels out, they only take what they need. I can't imagine a horse O.D.ing on salt, or magnesium, even selenium, would they eat and eat til they got ill? If they had forage available of course. I think we messed these wonderful creatures up when we started adding grains we concocted and tried to improve on what they were eating. DrO, I was trying to say the chemicals were messing up the horses, not that the chemicals were making the pastures more abundant, thus the horses fatter. Like hormones in meat, and girls are reaching puberty sooner. Has there ever been a study done on horses grazing where no fertilizer and/or weed killers were applied, vs grazing on "man made pastures?" What do we know about the affect of those chemicals in the equine body? If it's put on the plants, or in the soil, it does get ingested. Studies have shown Round Up was found in lettuce, don't remember the time frame, but it did show up in the plant. Makes ya think the next salad you eat, huh? Unless it's organic!
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 3:57 am: Diane, you continue with unsupported hypotheticals about unrecognized conditions in horses. I really do not know what else to say about it than what I have already. You do pose another question in your last post about warm season grasses. And while you list two of the reasons it also needs to be noted, and I think this the really important point, is they are lower in the NSC fructans. Angie, experiments have been conducted to see if horses can regulate and balance their specific mineral intake when given a selection of individual minerals. They were unable to do so. The only mineral horses have a specific taste for that we have been able to determine is NaCl. So it is best to combine the other minerals with salt, for more on this see the nutrition sections on minerals. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 7:30 am: Dr.O. I think most of it is supported It may not be in the literature yet, maybe it is I don't know. Did you read the article I posted above about HORSES and Mg. I know you are a busy man and hate to post articles for you to read, but it sounded very similar to the grass tetany problem in cows. It MAY well present itself differently in horses as a form of metabolic upset and as this happens year after year could it cause prediposed horses to become IR....I am just thinking out loud on that, but PERSONALLY I think there is something more that comes into play other than fat and fructans..though I believe that they do play an important role. Why do I think that?? I have struggled successfully to get Hanks weight down to normal. Yet, as you may have seen from another post he was out for a few hours extra when I fell asleep, he had the stiff legged walk the next day, a HUGE,HARD crest(overnight)He snapped out of it fairly quickly when the what I consider lush stressed grass was removed. Sam was a little slower to come back to normal and at that point I would have said his BCS was a 4. When the vet had come out to ultra sound Flash he said the boys looked GREAT...he is a food nazi and likes to see my horses thin because of their "problems" If you cut off Hanks fat neck and lumpy butt, he would look very good. Vet said he thought he had lost #400 lbs since his diet (which by the way I still can't get that thread to come up) He also suggested I put Hank on thyro-L just because he had DP's and the weird fat. Obviously from all the research and attention that IR is getting from researchers and the veterinarian community they must feel that these type of horses have something "different" about them. What that is is the "Holy Grail". No doubt it is a metabolic upset of sorts caused by many thing I'm sure. As I was VERY tempted to put Hank on Thyro-L I try to avoid any type of "drug". Since Mg.(amongst other minerals) is a player in metabolics in animals and humans I chose to try this mineral experiment, which is NOT really based on Mg. but trying to balance his minerals period. His minerals are mixed with loose salt, and as you state above it would seem they do regulate intake of that....he is obsessed with the mineral/salt mix. He also was trying to bite his salt block before I got this mix. Interesting enough he started biting the salt block when the pasture started turning green. Which it is NOT hot out then(march) and wasn't sweating. ALL conjecture for the most part I know, BUT as you try to teach us to use common sense. If I put 2+2 together something is not right in that boys metabolics. His mother is an easy keeper, yet she has NEVER foundered and it would not scare me to turn her out on lush grass at all from her history. She does not "go after" her mineral/salt mix and I keep it in front of her 24/7 since she is in a seperate paddock than the boys I know her consumption. The boys fight over their mix and I believe Hank gets most of it, because he chases Sam away from it. I do not let Sam out on grass after the last episode, so I put Hank in with his mother in the yard a couple hours to graze. Soon as Hank is out of there Sam heads for the minerals that I re-fill when I move Hank. Hank goes in and starts devouring his mothers (leaving the grass)!!! I don't know it's weird, and quite possibly not related to anything...but I think the "experiment" valid and not harmful as long as I regulate Hanks intake.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 9:29 am: DrO, Thank you for that answer on the experiment. Diane, Anxious to see what you see with Hank in a few weeks time. BTW, I have one mare who will devour anything left in her reach. Is it because she really needs the extra salt/minerals/feed, or because she has high anxiety? Does she have high anxiety because she was starved as a baby? (A walking skeleton when we got her, age 6 months, maybe a yearling) Or does she really need something her body was short changed previous? See how it goes? Is it just a greed thing?
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 10:28 am: Who knows Angie! Hank will leave his couple hours of grass time to eat the mares mineral mix. Grass is his favorite thing!
Member: kpaint	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 11:06 am: There are just too many hours in a day when the Haflingers are doing NOTHING...if their shoulders were in a harness, they wouldn't have time to overeat...:P I still vote that Windy the Hoover Horse is just a pig...
Member: mrose	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 11:20 am: This is all very interesting. My one comment is that I'd be careful about putting a horse on Thyro-L. Our vet put one of our old mares on it and she had to stay on it until she died. As I understand it, it's a tyroid supplement and shouldn't be "messed around with" as once started it alters thryoid output. Dr. O can correct me if I'm wrong. But, I'd never use it as a mineral supplement or just to help get weight off unless blood test revealed thryroid supplementation was needed. As to the herbacides and pesticides in feed, I think that is a valid concern across the board with all animals including people. I also know that minerals vary from area to area and many are often lacking in overused fields that aren't fertilized or don't have crop rotation done. Ideally, it would seem to me that pasture grass as well as hay should be analyzed to see what is lacking and then horses should be supplemented accordingly. I would think, however, how well a horse would make matabolize feed would change with age and maybe stress and illness. As a horse becomes older or is stressed it seems like it would make sense to top dress their feed with a mineral supplement or feed some processed feed that has minerals added. Like I said though, this is all interesting reading.
Member: klowe	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 1:30 pm: Diane, I too have read about MG etc. for cushingoid horses, haven't tried it, though. Paint is pretty clearly an EMS horse although he doesn't appear to have the IR component (yet) & doesn't get the cresty neck, possibly because I have only a very little grass here. So I will be interested in your experiment as well. I can answer the K+ question in regards to blood test results, however. As med tech, I can tell you that we see this often in both human and animal specimens. Red blood cells contain significant amounts of potassium (K+). When the serum portion of a blood sample isn't separated from the red cells in a relatively short period of time, which is done in various ways but which always includes centrifuging them...K+ is absorbed into the serum from the deteriorating red cells. The same thing will also happen if for any reason the red cells are damaged/broken during the blood draw. Since vet specimens collected in the field may often not be processed in a timely fashion, potassium is frequently elevated. Glucose will also be decreased because red cells continue to metabolize available glucose in the test tube. Other blood chemistry tests are affected, but K+ and glucose are the most prominent. (There are special tubes, however, which contain a preservative that can be used for accurate glucose results whether or not the tube can be centrifuged in the appropriate time frame). Let us know how it goes! Kathy
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 25, 2009 - 2:55 pm: Thanks if nothing good comes of this for Hank(other than his eye clearing) at least Flash is sweating like a normal horse again. She completely quit sweating about 7 yrs, ago...shortly after I had moved them to the rented farm on the west side of town. Summers have been tough on both of us. I can't wait to measure Hanks neck this weekend it does look "different" definitely still there tho! Kathy thanks for explaining the K in the blood, I thought it was something like that.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 8:52 am: Diane, I started a new discussion on "New Link for Pete Rameys Articles." I thought of you and Hank, when I read the "Feeding the Hoof" article.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 1:10 pm: Well I measured Hanks neck and weight. His weight remained steady since last week, it was #952 today. He has lost 4.5 ins. off his neck. I took a pic, but couldn't quite get him to pose in the same position as the other pictures.
Member: lilo	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 2:09 pm: Hi Diane, I looked back at the original photos - to me it seems there is a definite improvement. Can you tell me where you are measuring the circumference of the neck? Half-way between throat latch and shoulder, or somewhere else? If I could get my mare to hold still long enough, I would get pictures of her cresty neck and lumpy hindquarters for comparison and post them here. Good luck, Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 2:42 pm: Hi Lilo I measure it at the crestiess point of his neck...in the above photo about where the one piece of mane hair is sticking up. So this is not completely scientific, although he does have a point where the crest is the tallest. When I measure it I flex his neck in the same position as the circumference can vary with neck flexion. I have been measuring the whole neck, but I suppose it would be easier just to do one side.
Member: pattyb	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 4:59 pm: Wow Diane....4.5 inches??? That's great!! I am sooooo interested in your experiment and what you're using. Keep going, you may be surprised. I got to thinking the other day and I went back to the time I swore my cat got a urinary infection every time he got into the dry dog food. I knew there was a link but the doc back then said no. My thinking to this day, when it was later proven I was right, is that just because you can't prove it doesn't mean you aren't right. Just because you can't prove why something works doesn't mean that it doesn't. I had no idea why the dry dog food did that to the cat but I knew there was something in it that did. My point simply being that if you can't scientifically prove why your experiment is working, that doesn't mean that it isn't. Good luck!!!!!!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 27, 2009 - 6:31 pm: This is kind of funny and revealing. We had to go up to an implement store today to pay for getting our tractor fixed. They sell all kinds of things including implements. Hubby had decided not to give his cows mineral this year because of the $$$. 2 things recently changed his mind...pink eye returned UGHHH and He lost a cow in April for NO apparent reason..downer cow fine one day dead two days later. (Was after an abnormally hard freeze) He also has seen how much the horses are going through and thought maybe that was a red herring As we were pulling into the implement store they had some nice new cow mineral feeders on "sale" When we went in we asked the about the feeders, if they had any problems with them, if they had sold many ect. The guy looked at hubby kind of funny, and said yes we sold a lot of them in March and April, because of Grass Tetany...My ears perked! We DrOve right over and got some mineral for cows that were on pasture and now they all have some available to them. As we were driving home the grass tetany thing and founder in horses....(which happens at the same time of year usually).. got the old wheels spinning again.. Couldn't founder be the horses version of grass tetany?? If something like that effects cows so badly as to kill them in a day or 2. I really wonder how it couldn't affect a horse in some way?? At least the ride home went fast as my wheels were turning!
Member: cheryl	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:46 am: Diane - I absolutely cannot believe the last photo is of the same horse! ! ! That is an awesome change. I've been reading your thread since you started it. My mare has a cresty neck - looks terrible - has fat pads along her ribs and around the tail head - She's 14 now - has had them since she was 4. It doesn't matter how much weight she loses those areas stay put. I have her down from 1077 to 1018 now and will continue bringing her down until she reaches about a 4.5 - 5 but I would give anything to get rid of those awful fat deposits. Now that your experiment is working - - - what are the minerals you are giving Hank? I would love to be able to replicate your experiment. Cheryl K
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 9:33 am: Cheryl, as I am sure you know all areas of the country are different as far as mineral need. I do hesitate to state what I am using on Hank and herd, incidentally Sam is just as lumpy and cresty as Hank and he looks much better too actually more so then Hank, but I did not measure his crest or weight. Flash even looks better and slimmer, even though I am letting her graze more. Since we were at a feed store when I thought of Henry's mineral comment, I looked at all commercially available mixes. I am not mathematically smart enough to figure out my own mix. Since this is readily available to anyone I guess it is a do no harm! After looking over all the ingredients I settled on https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/grassplusmineralmix.html Along with https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/harvestsalt.html Along with a little extra Mg. Ox...bought a bag at the feed store. We are Se deficient in this part of the country. So as you can see it is just a commercial mix, with free choice salt, and a little added Mg. The mineral aspect is rather intriguing, and the more I read about it the more I am convinced it could play some sort of small role in IR. Quite a bit of research seems to be going into this, as in the link Angie gave and MANY more. The intelligent thing for me to do would be to test my hay and soils, which I may do next year, along with a blood test of Hank. Have to see how my pocket book is then. Hank and Sam are now leveling out their intake. Flash has had a steady intake all along. I still can't believe she sweats now!!! I don't know if it is because of the mineral/salt mix, but a very odd coincidence indeed
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 10:30 am: Thanks for the links, I don't think we have that up here, so I would have to read labels and see what compares. We are SE deficient also. So, you put this out free choice? The minerals, salt, mag seperate? Just want to be clear on the method. As someone who has battled CFS for almost 30 years, I can personally vouch that vitamin, & mineral intake, along with clean eating, EFAs, affect my health, weight, and well being. (not so much the "cersty neck" ) I have been slacking off, get sick of swallowing pills, and my energy is low lately. I feel cured when I keep up with supplements. So it makes sense to me that any animal could benefit from supplements. IMHO. AND, as I found, blood work don't show all problems. Don't mean there isn't a deficiency, or that a body isn't utilizing something it needs, it just means they are not the right tests, or the docs/vets, aren't looking in the right places. No disrespect to any vets or doctors; just my experience! Good job Diane! Thank you.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 11:23 am: Thanks Angie, At first I mixed the salt in to hopefully slow down consumption..didn't work. So I was afraid of overdosing and now the salt is in one side and the mineral(with the Mg.Ox mixed in is on the other side(free Choice). They seem to be eating the"expected amount" now. I was very surprised to see they offered Buckeye in this area! Henry actually suggested this,https://www.stockadebrands.com/products.cfm?productID=43&cat=15 but I see it has extra molasses and doesn't state it is safe for horses. At that time free choice minerals specified for horses was not available and was the reason I never tried it on the horses, I kind of wish I had, as I believe he was on to something. If it wasn't for the molasses I believe I would try the 14:14 mineral as it does state "livestock mineral" It seems a little more balanced for our area and situation.
Member: pattyb	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 12:40 pm: Diane...thank you very much for posting the links. I'm going to forward them to both nutritionists that have been helping me with Ziggy to see what they would tweak for my area on the east coast. This is very interesting!!! Whilst I was looking at the 3rd link, I noticed a reference to a fly control block. LOLOLOL.....that is very similar to the block my old gelding got drunk off of. Seems it was a bit too tasty and he munched on it alllll night long. My other horse didn't pay it much attention but I did have to heave hoe it for Buck's sake....poor fella, had quite a hang over. Thanks again for sharing the info!
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 12:51 pm: Diane, There is definitely a big difference in Hank's crest. It almost looks normal. I really think you have something here with the mineral and salt mix. One of the things you posted about was that since you started Hank on the mix that his eyes stopped tearing. I have had that problem in the past also many years ago and the vet prescribed a light purple powder containing sodium iodide. I looked at the ingredients in the mineral mix I am using and it contains sodium and iodine. I am assuming that your mix does too. So, this could be a reason for his eyes to clear up. The other thing I thought about was why people as well as horses retain fluid in their bodies, whether its because of some sort of metabolic imbalance or some other reason. I know with my own experiences, when I eat right, I feel better and I do not retain fluid. I would have to think that this same thing would apply to horses too. Once a proper balance is reached there is no need for humans or horses to retain the fluid, so it is excreted from the body in the form of sweat or urine. I think it is the body's way ( human or horse) of protecting itself from times where not enough food or water is around. Your horses may be more predisposed to it because of the hardyness (sp?) of their arabian breeding ( lack of water in the desert). I can compare it to a camels hump. We think we are doing our horses a favor by taking care of them the way we do when in fact it is probably not in their best interest at all. I am not talking about those of us here on HA that do pay attention and try to do the right thing. But I can't tell you how many times I've kicked myself, once I realized that something I was doing for years was not helping my horses in the least. We learn as we go and along the way our horses suffer until we figure out what we did wrong and correct it ( Hank's Horns for example). Lucky for us our horses are very forgiving animals that heal fast, give us pleasure for a good many years and don't hold a grudge. I can absolutely see a big difference in my own horses since they started on the mineral mix they are on. They have that healthy horse shine that Dr. O talks about in his nutrition article without having very much added oil or fat in their diets. This is something I could never get before without oil or fat. It's come since they started on the mineral mix. The feed has stayed the same. Keep going with Hank. He sure has come a long way. Just my thoughts Rachelle
Member: mrose	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 1:26 pm: Some very good points are being brought up here. I think what Rachelle says about how we care for horses is one of the most important points. And, I'm as guilty as the next person. I try to do what is right for them, but I think sometimes we almost "kill them with kindness." Rachelle, my vet has prescribed what sounds like the same stuff for some of my horses over the past years. I remember one horse that had runny eyes and slight cough that wouldn't go away; after a week on the iodine mix, it went away. It was used successfully for other things, too, but it's been so long I don't remember what they were. We also gave it to one of our pg mares for some reason. I feel a good vitamin-mineral mix is necessary for animals and humans alike. I know a lot of people disagree. My feeling is that unless you know your are getting your food from well balanced soil with no overuse of chemicals, and you always eat a well balanced diet that isn't over processed, you need a supplement. Same goes for your horses imo. I used to have mineral/salt blocks instead of the plain salt blocks. I think I'm going to switch back to the mineral blocks. I've been feeding minerals in the feed, but during the summer most of my horses don't get any added feed except pasture and hay. They just don't need it due to their weight.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 2:17 pm: BTW as I stated in Lee's post I hate clover!! As I was researching the carb and mineral content of clover relatively speaking...I know it will differentiate with soils I found that "new clover" contains tyl...something or another and can effect thyroid function. Of course I ran across this in a grass tetany article. I do know the pastures on the west side of town that my horses are/were kept on were all reseeded with a good amount of white and alsike clover. This is from the article and don't know if thiocyanate can effect horses or not There is worse, however, to come. It was stated previously that the new, pedigree strains of white clover 6 tended to increase the level of thiocyanate in the blood serum of the animal, and this substance sensitizes the neuro-muscular system to potassium. These new white clover strains have still more serious disadvantages. The thiocyanate they produce in the organism is an anti-thyroid factor which can have a serious. toxic effect on the foetus; moreover, it passes into the milk.7 Finally, bloat is often frequent on pasture rich in these strains of white clover. In addition, these new white clover strains contain an oestrogen 8 which reduces animal fertility.9 These effects are obviously more marked, the more white clover the sward contains. In conclusion, although a certain percentage of white clover may help to avoid tetany (and this is not yet proven), a high proportion of clover, especially the new strains currently in use, involves the danger of other disadvantages which are perhaps even more serious. Study on humans...just makes one wonder if that clover I hate is playing with the thyroid function in some form https://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN78_05%2FS00071145970 01736a.pdf&code=43063caf7a45d6c201f7ea49a2a202a6 From another study..note thiocyanate is listed and it is about horses! As antithyroid agents, they have four general effects: (1) they may interfere with iodine uptake by the thyroid gland (e.g., thiocyanate), (2) interference with tyrosine iodination, (3) suppression of thyroxine secretion, or (4) function as a metabolic antagonist to thyroxine in the tissues. The article https://www.albertahorseindustry.ca/hboc/2004/proceedings/thyroid.pdf. I don't know what my horses problems are, but they defitnely have some. I am not a bad horse keeper...they are far from over indulged...yet everything is a constant battle with them as far as weight and laminitis! and I am totally sick of it! At this point I am going to try anything reasonable. I just sprayed the crap out of that clover!!!.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 6:21 pm: Sorry I see that link doesn't work on the human study... if you google thiocyanate and thyroid you will get the hits Here is the grass tetany article about white clover and thiocyanate....forgot that one https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010106voisin/010106gtchap30.html I hope Dr.O. doesn't mind me posting these links, they are very interesting IMHO. I am not trying to say mineral imbalances are the horses problems or even the white clover...I do suspect both tho as contributing factors. They can't eat any less and be healthy, yet they remain fat looking with numerous odd ailments ever since we moved to these pastures. No problems before that.
Member: leslie1	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 8:09 pm: D did your horses problems start immediately when you moved to that pasture or did it take time to develope? His neck looks soo much better BTW
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 28, 2009 - 9:11 pm: Leslie I moved them in the fall of that year, the next spring IR symptoms began to develop. The next fall I had 2 founder (when I moved I had 5 horses...Hank wasn't born yet) The next spring I had to put one down due to unrelenting founder. Sam stopped shedding and fat lumps, a swollen sheath, goopy eyes. Flash who was a hard keeper turned into a VERY fat horse. Next spring another unrelenting founder, that led to euth. Sam also foundered, but I was able to save him. Flash quit coming in heat shortly after Hank was born. She also developed anhiDrOsis. That year another founder that ultimately led to euth. NONE of these horse were grained when there, they were all in good weight when moved and always had been...BCS of 4-5 in the east side pasture. I had never had to have a vet for colic, or anything they WERE very healthy...before and kept on 40 acres of nice pasture. NOTHING changed in my management on the west side..exercise ect stayed the same or close. The only difference was the area. I rode all the time then, these horses were worked, I brought in cattle with Sam, went on all day trail rides hauled him everywhere. Flash was usually with us as a borrowed horse. We even took her foals on trail rides with us. Hank was born the second year we were there with no problems. He started out thin as all young horses but by his 2-3 yo year he just plumped right up. I never grained him just 24/7 pasture....and you know the rest of the story
Member: lilo	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 5:14 pm: Diane - I took photos of Moonlight's neck and hindquarter, plus a sideview. Just wanted you to know that you are not the only one with a cresty neck etc. Her breeding is 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Saddlebred, I have had her since age 6, she is 23 now. At one point, when she was about 8 or 9, she became very overweight and her neck was much worse than it is now. Fortunately, I have not battled founder with her - probably because we have very poor pasture, not that rich stuff you have. I hope I resized the photos correctly. Lilo
Member: leslie1	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 5:55 pm: She looks great! just needs a lil' lipo I kno the feeling
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 6:03 pm: Hi all, Talk about timing. I just got the most recent edition of theHorse Nutrition Newsletter and there are a number of articles on just what we have been discussing here. Here is the link https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7207. Rachelle
Member: mrose	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 6:19 pm: Lilo, maybe the pictures aren't close enough to her neck to show the fatty crest. In the pictures, imo, she looks like an older mare that is out of shape, not one I'd be be concerned about otherwise. But, I realize it's sometimes hard to get things to show in pictures like they are in life. Looking at her again before I post, I notice what looks like rippling along the back of her butt, but am not sure what I'm actually looking at. Is she fatty back there? or is it hair ruffled up? or???
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 6:53 pm: Lilo her rear end looks a lot like Sams...Hanks hasn't gotten that bad yet(and it isn't going to!) Does she have what appears to be fat on the side of her hind quarters too(where the ripples are next to her gaskin)? Sam has 3 fat "lumps" there running down his leg and it is the weirdest thing I have ever seen. Your horse is in good weight it seems I talked to my vet today and asked him why he was prescribing Cyproheptadine for his EMS horses along with Thyro-L, he said it was because it fight inflammation and "unusal" fat is an inflammatory response to something or another HMMMM he told me to wrap my head around that because it Works!! I think I touched on that in my vaccinations for reactive horses thread, because he was telling me that back then. Which in a way could make sense because those cresty necks can change for the worse literally overnight. SOMETHING has to make them do that! I don't know maybe it would be worth trying on Sam, his fat pads are worse then Hanks. Very similar to your mares...almost exact! Especially the wrinkled butt and leg fat...I will get a pic of it tonight when I feed. Keep Hank on minerals, and try Sam on the meds HMMMMM
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 8:17 pm: Sams weird leg fat(he's still hairy) But you definitely can see the lumps Sams crest which is getting much smaller Hanks butt Hanks neck tonight..which at first I thought may be my imagination...but it is getting a little smaller I couldn't get a good pic of Sam's butt because of his hair!
Member: ekaufman	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 9:00 pm: Wow Diane, I'm glad no one is walking behind me with a camera! I wonder if there is some objective way to measure something like crest size. I may be alone in not seeing a difference in Hank's crest, but in this series of photos I see nothing that can't be accounted for by lighting, head position, etc.. Of course, it would be wonderful if this experiment succeeded, but I confess I'm a skeptic. Perhaps we need a set of calipers or something, and a way to standardize his head position and lighting....
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 9:34 pm: Yes, Elizabeth that would be the problem, it is hard to get everything exact so this is not scientific by any means. I can go by what I am seeing and I believe it is definetly changing, leveling out so to speak....I am a skeptic too but thought it worth a shot...nothing much else works. When I measure his neck I am trying to be as precise as possible. I put his halter on, have the lead rope marked to where I put it in the center of his chest and flex his neck in as close to the same position as possible. Pictures can definetly be deceiving I am aware. I have no one to hold him so I try to take pics where his head is close to the same position. Other than the mineral I have not changed anything in his diet either. Nothing wrong with being a skeptic, because honestly I don't think anything will get rid of that crest....but then again I never thought he would be anything other than a prancing dancing idiot under saddle either Time will tell as always
Member: mrose	Posted on Monday, Jun 29, 2009 - 10:37 pm: Diane, if you took a magic marker or one of those markers they mark endurance horses with and put one dot along his neck at the most cresty part, and put another dot directly below it along his actual neck, maybe they would help you make sure you are measuring in the same spot. Actually, if you used calipers to measure, as Elk suggested, I wonder if that would tell more accurately? You know, measure like they do in health clubs with they are measuring your body fat? The calipers might allow you to measure the width or thickness of the crest, also, which would be telling imo. Does hubby have any of those things lying around in his tool box? It would be interesting, imo, to see the difference in thickness as well as the height from the neck....just to make this as scientific as possible for all of us who are watching this "case" Also, is Hank getting worked any more than he used to be? Could that be making any difference in his fat deposits? How about Sam?
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 7:22 am: Hank is getting worked about the same, if anything a little less because of the heat and humidity we had. Sam is not being worked at all, tho sure could use it! Hank also has been getting grass time with his mother in the yard. We do not have any calipers. When I measure his neck last time I put it in every position possible to try to get it to the original measurement, I couldn't. I have been marking the tape measure when I measure it. If I go by where I measure it, the least he lost is 4.5 in. I did not measure last night I want to measure it every weekend, so as not to get discouraged if he doesn't loose any. I KNOW this is not scientific by any means, it is just meant to be exactly what the title says a backyard "experiment" Though the mare is definetely sweating normally now, I have no idea why after all this time she would all the sudden start again, I tried all the supplements available and they didn't work. I even got desperate and tried beer, which I have heard help some sweat!
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 7:36 am: Forgot, I did put a small dot with a magic marker where I was measuring his neck...it sweated off! I even used the permanent kind hubby uses on the calves. It is very, very faded, but I can still see it, I will re-dot him today before I can't see it.
Member: cheryl	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 8:43 am: Diane - thanks for the links - Buckeye isn't available here - Idaho - but there is a place in Oregon that sells a free choice mineral - I'm going to take pictures of Fox today and will use calipers to measure her neck - Will get her started on some minerals just as soon as I can. Is the salt mix you are feeding different than the salt block with minerals? She already eats a lot of that. This is going to be interesting. If Fox loses her crest and the fat lumps on her butt that would be absolutely great. She has other problems too but the foundering - over and over - is the most difficult to deal with. I'm so glad you are doing this thread. Cheryl K
Member: kathleen	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 11:08 am: Cheryl K, I feed free choice minerals and free choice salt in separate containers mounted in my mare's stall. I have been feeding this combination for about 9 years. When I first started she ate the minerals until they were gone, every day. So we gave a measured amount every day in the container until she quit eating all of it. We were then able to fill up the container. ABC specifies that these minerals should NOT be given mixed with feed, but should be given free choice. Mona has always eaten the salt when she needs it, and also does the same with the minerals. She will go long times without eating the minerals and then eats some consistently for a while. She is pretty consistent with the salt when you would expect it, ie summer when she sweats a lot and winter. I get them from Advanced Biological Concepts. Website is: https://www.abcplus.biz/ Click on online store (upper right), then click on equine free choice (left side of page), will get list of free choice "stuff". Check out "free choice box stall kit". It contains a two hole feeder and a small amt of Rush Creek Minerals and Redmond Salt. That allows you to try it out without investing a lot of money up front. That is what I started with 9 years ago. It is my understanding that when you first start the free choice, if they eat a lot of the minerals, then they are deficient and need them. Like I said I measured a small amount and put it in the feeder two times a day and after abut two weeks she slowed down on her consumption and we were able to fill the container and have done that ever since. She never ate the salt like she ate the minerals in the beginning. This is just a suggestion based on my experience. ABC also has many other products and you might want to check them out. One interesting product that I saw, when I was checking out the site so I could help you navigate to the minerals and salt, was a product called Cushings Plus MG and CR (Magnesium and Chromium). I looked at it and it specifies that you must confer with your vet about feeding this supplement. It looks interesting but I know nothing about it. These are just my opinions and experience. Kathleen
Member: melis2	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 11:13 am: Diane, The grease sticks/markers used on cattle work well and don't disappear quite as fast.
Member: mrose	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 11:23 am: Diane, see what you've started! I should have known you'd be smart enough to use dots on Hank. Too bad we can't all use the same mineral mix and then report back results as it would make for a more through "study." I do appreciate your reporting all of this. Like I said, it is interesting and I really wonder if you aren't on to something.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 11:28 am: Kathleen, Thanks for the link, and sharing your experiences. I printed the ingredients from the Buckeye minerals to compare to what we have here; nothing close. I don't want to start mixing my own ingredients without guidance.
Member: annes	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 3:49 pm: Diane, my husband feeds his cattle the high mag mineral for grass tetany every Spring between Valentine's Day and Mother's Day. (just a way to remember when to feed it). Anyway, I was told by my vets NOT to let horses get into it, that it could kill a horse. For that reason, I do not let my horses in the field with the cattle during the time the high mag is out since it is fed free choice. What worried me was the people at our Coop store didn't seem to be aware of this - did your store give you any warning about horses getting into it? Good luck with your experiment.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 30, 2009 - 4:28 pm: Ann, some cattle mixes have anti-biotics in them also, I wonder if that's what your husband feeds...they will kill a horse pretty quickly. If it is for livestock it usually lists what it is safe for. I don't feed the "livestock mix" anyway. The one hubby feeds is considered safe for horses. Years ago hubby used to be in charge of the "livestock" stuff at a feed store so he knows what horses can and can not have that is related to cattle. Certain protein/mineral licks for cattle will kill a horse also. I just want you all to remember, all horses needs are different, and their situations unique what works for one may not work for the other.. Cheryl I know what you mean about the foundering, It seems it just takes a change in weather to set either Hank or Sam off. The salt I am feeding them is high in Se. and Iodine + a few other trace minerals...we lack both. I also add 2oz of Mg. Oxide to every 6 oz. of mineral. I have the mineral feeders with 2 sides and just screwed them into a board in the Lean to. I started this mineral experiment about 1.5 weeks ago and am almost out of the 25lb. bag (of mineral). They have slowed their consumption to what I would expect to be normal. I have been debating putting them on gro' N win mineral for grass. It is top dressed on their feed or can be fed alone. It is a bit pricey, but I figure if they are fed that I can DrOp the alfalfa pellets, vitamins/min. supp I have been giving them and come out just about even...it is a low starch mix for easy keepers.OR would that make my experiment even LESS scientific??? I can't believe we have buckeye in his neighborhood,we don't have anything else....I just happened to see this feed store when we were going to pay for the tractor. https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/GNW%20product%20manual.pdf I would be interested if the correct mineral supps help your horses any. I do see a difference in Hank I have no doubt, but whether it is due to the minerals only God knows
Member: lilo	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 1, 2009 - 9:38 am: Hi all, Thanks for your kind comments on Moonlight. I will try to get her neck position like Diane does, with her neck flexed somewhat. Sara - those ripples on her rump are fat deposits. She has had them for about 3 years now - is not getting as much work as she used to. She also has some fat pads behind her withers, but they seem to be smaller now. I have started her on Purina Nature's Essentials 32 (lots of vitamins, minerals and 32% protein) at my vet's recommendation. She still gets a little Purina Senior along with that. Lilo
Member: mrose	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 1, 2009 - 10:11 am: Lilo, has she been diagnosed as IR? Seeing Sam's pictures, your mare and Diane's Sam have identical hind legs! I've seen fat deposits at the tail head, withers, and neck, but don't recall seeing them at the rear of the rump/top of the gaskin. Weird. My old girl can't keep weight on anymore except when getting senior. Most of her diet is Senior now.I love the stuff.
Member: lilo	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 1, 2009 - 3:30 pm: Sara - the vet has never drawn blood to test for insulin resistance. He would if she started having problems, but, so far so good. She has the cresty neck and fat pads, but I can see her ribs. Go figure. She has plenty energy when I ride her (to the point of bucking if I hold her back too much) - but she could use more regular exercise. Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 8:40 pm: Well here is a collage starting with 6-20 going through the weeks until today. I did tape his neck tonight and total he has lost 5in. Approximately off his neck. He hasn't lost any off his weight and may have gained a few pounds but he likes to bloat when I tape him so hard telling for sure! Good thing he can't bloat his neck! I try to take the pics now when he is eating so his neck is flexed in ABOUT the same position. I will say for the most part the more it is flexed the bigger his crest looks. In the last 2 shots the last being tonight it was probably flexed the most. I ran out of free choice mineral so started them on Gro N win ration balancer which seems to fit their program better anyway and I control what each one gets. Here he is with his neck straighter just to show the straighter it is the less the crest appears. His exercise and diet have remained fairly consistent.
Member: mrose	Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 10:17 pm: I hope his progress continues! He does look better. What about the butt on Sam? Have you seen any difference in him?
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jul 2, 2009 - 11:07 pm: Sara, I shaved sam's butt today (what a mess) new clippers are going on top of my Christmas list this year. His butt doesn't seems as lumpy and he seems a little "happier" lately. The "dry lot" they are in has some clover in it, they suck on that day and night. I am in process of killing my clover I've been wanting to do that since we moved here. Sam is already DrOoling From the little bit they are able to get at . It also appears at least half of it is alsike clover. I have to put them somewhere tho while I am killing it, so I am doing it in sections, until I am done they can get at some unless I lock them in the paddock 24/7. I really don't want to do that unless I have to. I have another spot I could put them, but then Flash couldn't see them and would have a tizzy fit AS You KNOW Nothings easy! I hope his progress continues also, despite not loosing weight he LOOKS thinner.
Member: lilo	Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 11:24 am: Diane - you are the champ when it comes to posting photos. I think Hank's neck looks better. I will try to take a shot of Moonlight's when she is eating from her manger, might give a better view of her cresty neck. Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 11:50 am: Thanks Lilo, I can NOT take good hoof pics tho! While Hanks neck remains cresty it is getting leveler. It may take months to see a big difference if there is going to even be one...at this point I am happy with the results and am going to continue the Gro n Win. So SO many variables come into play with these beasts. I am going to do all I can short of meds to try to get their metabolism to "even out" I have not taken away their "grazing in the "dry lot" and I am sure it is full of carbs very stressed grass and clover stubs. I didn't want to change anything in their diet as my experiment was going on. Today I am making them a new pen in the other pasture....no clover....just overgrown grass. They will be allowed to graze this a few hours a day, and taken off the "stressed grass" Wonder what the results of that will be???? I am going to take pics of Sam and Hank before I do this and weigh them..HMMMM I wonder if I should take them off the mineral for the "stressed grass" high carb test??? Opinions?
Member: cheryl	Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 1:59 pm: Will try this again - had a post completed yesterday and lost it. Kathleen - thank you for the ABC website. I had been looking for it. I measured the crest on Fox's neck - 3 7/8 inches- didn't tape around it - probably should have. Hope these photos come through: The first photo shows the fat deposit on her ribs, the second around her tail and the third requires no clarification. We are in the middle of haying right now so won't be able to get her on a mineral supplement until that is finished. Again Diane, I am so glad you started this thread. I've been fighting this for years. Cheryl
Member: cheryl	Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 2:01 pm: Guess I need to correct the date on my camera - these were taken Thursday. Cheryl
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 9:23 pm: Cheryl report back when you get your results Hank has that fat pad over part of his ribs also...I hate that as much as his neck! May I ask what does Fox's diet consist of? Here is a pic of his side fat I outlined it as it is kind of hard to make out, it is regressing and is smaller then it was.
Member: cheryl	Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 9:10 am: When the equine nutritionist told me to give her free choice hay I knew she was wrong - but I was so sick of starving them to death. Fox paid for it with another founder episode. Fox now gets 3 pounds of timothy clover mix hay - really steamy - in the AM and seven pounds at night - she gets a coffee cup of crimped oats at night. I let her out to graze for 30 minutes at noon and 30 in the afternoon. I've started riding her some - but that's another problem - WA State diagnosed her as possible wobbler at the same time she was diagnosed with EPM. She is NOT a fun ride but running her is circles on a lunge line is not going to happen. As soon as things settle down here some I will pose some questions to Dr. O in a new thread. Cheryl
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 10:12 am: Cheryl, I know what you mean about sick of starving them to death. I'm trying everything at this point to see if they can live somewhat normal lives and yet not become obese and founder...what a balancing act! I was able to feed mine free choice PURE stemmy grass hay in the winter mos. this year, but I had to find the "perfect" hay. For MY horses I am starting to think clover is a NO/NO. One thing the pastures didn't have on the east side of town was clover. When I moved them to the west side I had 4 "pastures" they always wanted to be in one of them (the one they would founder in) and would stay there even thos there was plenty of grass in the other pastures, I even commented to the owner how I wondered why they never left that pasture even tho it was one of the smaller ones. I looked one day and it was pure clover pretty much. I didn't really think nothing of it I thought clover was good for horses (and it probably is to an extent) I thought it was a weed or tree or something else causing the founder.(hence my first post on HA). My horses have had mostly clover pastures since then and my trouble continues. I DO NOT over feed them anymore! They stay relatively fat on 6lbs. of hay a day...PLUS the clover they suck on continuously in their "dry lot" it don't look like much but something is keeping them in a continual state of IR. The minerals are helping them I think. Now I am taking away ALL clover and stressed/short grass. If that don't do it I may have to try the vets concoction of Thro-L and chyphro....He swears by it. I wish I knew the difference between the geldings and the mare. She has been fat since I moved them actually quite obese...she DOES NOT have rib fat, butt fat, tail head fat. Tho she does have a cresty neck. She has NEVER foundered unlike the other 2. and eats on lush grass/clover in our yard for a couple hours a day and never even gets a DP....the boys would! She is Hanks mother. IF I were rich I would run some blood tests on all 3 of them...including glucose and insulin to see if there was some kind of difference.
Member: pattyb	Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 12:54 pm: Hello and good afternoon. Diane...I wanted to chime in about two things you mentioned. Yes, clover is a no/no but I never thought to mention it until you brought it up. My vet told me years ago to keep my Cushing's horse on grass hay, no clover and due to her age when diagnosed (27), she was fed late cuttings so it was softer for her to chew and digest. As far as the clover, that is also true with Ziggy and his IR however: To get his weight down, they had access to the over grazed arena and barn for 7 hours/day plus, I really had to cut his hay well below the rec. maintenance amount. I remember running across an article where a vet had written that certain hardy breeds had to be cut waaaay back to get them to lose weight and I found that to be true for him. Anyway, any horse I've ever had on a diet was not allowed clover in their pasture or hay so I would avoid that as best as possible. As for the cipro/thyro approach, for Ziggy the thyro is a no go for him because some horses can become hyper on it and God knows he doesn't need to go there. Wish I could because I still have most of a canister leftover from when I lost Banner last August. I've been willing to give it away if the vet had someone who wanted to try using it before buying some.....but it's still here sitting on the back of the piano; I can't bring myself to disgard it, right along with the leftover pergolide and chromium in the fridge. Once I got the weight off of Ziggy, he has for the most part returned to a more normal diet and turnout routine as long as I keep in mind that I have to cut back some when it rains and freshens the grass again. It was pretty amazing to watch, it's as though his metabolism returned to normal once the excess weight was off. I still weight tape him weekly and do notice he gets grumpy when the grass is green green, otherwise, he has made tremendous progress since last year. I'm real interested in following your experiment with the mineral mix. Their Triple Crown has a lot of that added and says not to use one except for a plain salt source. He does get the Quiessence for the magnesium/chromium approach but I know that is still controversial although, he really is much calmer than a year ago and I can't swear why. Anyway, continued success on your experiment! If it works as well as I hope, I just may have to change their feed to be able to add the mineral mix.
Member: dres	Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 3:03 pm: Diane ,have you posted what minerals you are using yet.. ? On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jul 5, 2009 - 4:45 pm: Hi Ann, I started them out on the buckeye free choice mineral and harvest salt...but was afraid they were consuming too much. https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/grassplusmineralmix.html I now have them on Gro N' Win it is topped dressed and low carb grass ration balancer https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/gronwin.html I also mix in 2 oz. of mag ox
Member: pattyb	Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 10:07 am: Good morning Diane. I hadn't seen an update in my email notifications so I came here wondering if AOL was rebelling again or, if your thread was on vacation. It's been a while, do you have any new interesting observations to share? I bet that everyone with a metabolic disorder horse is following your experiments very closely. Also, I have a new issue with my IR horse----> He had been doing great now that his weight is at his prime target weight however, the diet that got him there is now an issue. He has reached his target yet when I increase anything with carbs to maintain that weight, his starvation and bad mood attitude shows back up. That means that I can't increase grass time or his hay to stop the weight loss and keep him at this weight soooooo, off to the farm store I went. Our local farm store has a certified feed specialist so the crux of our conversation brought us to add fat calories to help him maintain his current weight and leave the grass, hay and lite grain as is. In theory, that should help him as long as I don't over do the fat and she suggested 1 ounce of rice oil once daily for his current weight. There is no doubt in my mind at this point that carbs are the enemy, grass carbs being the worse but hay carbs are not all that far behind. So, here I sit hoping the increase in fat works, adjusted up or down by gauging his weight maintenance needs AND following your thread in case your idea seems to work better. I can tell you with all honesty, I haven't seen anything like this horse in my 40+ years of horsedom....baffling, absolutely baffling. In the end, I'm hoping the approach you're taking helps us all deal with IR horses, I'm running out of hair on my own head to pull and will soon have to find a volunteer (victim) to lend me their head of hair. Anyway, sooooooo looking forward to your next update and hoping you are continuing to see progress.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jul 18, 2009 - 10:28 am: Hi Patty, I don't know if you saw I started a different thread...which I am going to update right now! https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/327094.html

Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!

Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC