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  Discussion on Small colics or Pica?
Author Message
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:12 am:

Dear all, I have a problem with my seven year old mare wich is bothering me for a long time and I would love to hear if anyone has experience with this.She paws the pasture and then starts to eat the roots of the grass or lick the sand.She does this infrequently in all of the pastures,stress enhances the problem, wet weather also seems to be a reason.She always has access to good quality grass and fresh hay and a mineral lick.During winter she is stabled at night during the fly season stabled daytime at tthe moment 24/7 out. None of this seems to affect the pawing[ and ofcourse the real troubling part the ingestion of sand]I have consulted 3 vets two of them obviously thouht I was nuts and told me to stable her,when told that she would start boxwalking if I would do that they thought I should get rid of her. The 3 vet thought perhaps she was slighty colicky when pawing and went over her routine and feeding regime with me and could not think of anything to change. She stated as much as she disliked it she had patients who regularly got colick and she could not find out why.She advised to let the horse be until it would get to a real colick and then treat her.
I agreed with this point of vieuw. we try to limit the intake of the sand check her regularly according to the advises of this site I do not feed psyllium because there seems to be no scientific reason to do so.
Did we overlook something? Does anyone have a suggestion which could improve this situation?Do you agree it looks like colick and is not Pica? and if so should I react differently?
I would like to add the horse is extremely healthy looking beautiful and having a very difficult temperament which is why we did not sell her as a showjumper but keep her as a 'pastureornament'.
Could be that I am overeacting,due to the fact we had to put down two of our horses within the last two months. If you think so please tell me.
Thanks for everyones time in advance
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:42 am:

Jos, what was the cause of death in the other 2 horses? Also what type mineral block are you using and is your area know for any natural mineral deficiencies?
DrO
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 11:07 am:

Her mother died in november2004 , torsion of the colon after a strange series of real bad gas colics unexplained high fever a strange attack of not being able to put her head down to the ground and incordinate movements[ lasted about 8 hours] vet thought a sore neck because of antibiotica injections.Since her return from France 3 years ago I hadn't seen her 100% allright sometimes a small gascolic[she had these attacks as long as we have owned her age 3 to 16]but they grew more frequent and intense.She had a light attack of laminitis may2004 but I think she has had one or more of these in the 2 years France[state of her front feet]COPD was a problem and as long as we have used her as a broodmare she sometimes had trouble with her progesteron level strangely all throughout pregnancy not only the first months which on two occasions resulted in a dead foetus[ 6 weeks and 4,5 months] After consulting the vet of Zangersheide we decided to use Regumate. He told us the other option would be to continually check the level which meant she had to stay at the studfarm.All in all a mare with a lot of strange problems and each time she got sick during the last years I half and half expected her to die, as especially the colicking grewe worse. Apart from that she traveled very badly and got quite upset in a strange environment so if she had to go to a clinic and had no accompanying foal we would send another horse she knew with her. In august 2004 this companion of hers had to be put down because of artrosis in her neck left front foot combined with extreme tying up. We had been able to keep her relatively pain free and happy for the last 2 years but decided she was in to much pain.
The other horses always have been doing fine,no other colics although on the same feed and pasture.All of them big warmbloods in all ages like the 2 others.
The pasture was acidic when we bought it 3 years ago low in magnesium ,calcium and natrium.copper was low too. All of these have been added slowly and last march the groundsamples were ok. Until this had been achieved the horses ate bought hay[and silage for the allergic ones] from good pastures,and in summer apart from their Rockie minerals salt lick they got added minerals from Pavo [ dutch horsefeed manufacturer]and in winter vitamins and minerals ,both a complete mix specifically for horses who do not receive much pellets or sweet feed.What frightens me most about the 7 year old on which I started this discussion is ofcourse will she act like her mother and have gradually worse colicks. If I cannot do anything about it I will accept that only I don't want a horse to become ill because I overlooked anything.
Jos
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 12:15 pm:

Whenever a horse (or human) eats the dirt it's because they are instinctively looking for some mineral they are lacking. Can you have your hay and pasture tested to see what might be lacking? In our area we have to supplement selenium, even though farms not far from us have enough. There is a big difference in minerals from mile to mile it seems.

Personally, I don't agree with the theory of just waiting until the mare has a serious colic to treat her. Can you have some blood work done to see what she might be lacking?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 1:03 pm:

There are 2 problems with Sara's post. First, while salt (NaCl) is one of the few nutrients (water, calories, and maybe protein are other ones) that we know there develops a craving for when deficient this is not true for other minerals that we know. Horses may consume dirt despite receiving good levels of minerals. Second many mineral deficiencies cannot be picked up from routine blood work and others require difficult to find or very expensive tests (for more see the article on meinerals for the tests required). It is more practical to evaluate the diet first.

It sounds like you are doing a super job of monitioring mineral intake and perhaps some of the mineral additions you added are actually flavorable to the horse. I would think that such deficiences under such conditions would be unlikely but check the mineral supplements you are ginving against the article on minerals.

Next time you see such the pawing behavoir walk out and offer some grain if the horse has an appetite colic is unlikely.
DrO
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 2:12 pm:

Sarah,thanks for your reaction, the pasture is tested an at the moment within every level needed for a horse[even young growing horses should get adequate supply]Hay is tested and ok for cows but they only eat small amounts of it due to an abundance of grass.
DrO, the minerals seem to be ok when checked against your articles. She immediately stops pawing when she sees me and accepts happily anything to eat [including a piece of banana!] Which explains why the vet doesn't worry to much.Bloodwork was normal faeces negative test of her liverfunction[done 2 years ago] allright all x-rays excellent no OCD.
Jos
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 4:58 pm:

Clay licks have been a way for mammals and birds to deal with toxins in their system throughout the ages. Even man has been known to ingest clay when forced to resort to food sources that are toxic (Indians reportedly ate clay to allow them to eat acorns). One of my boys has eaten clay or dirt from time to time, when he had all the free choice minerals he could want, as well as plenty of hay. He has done it especially when he had a belly ache (including a colic that required Vet. care) or when he was just fine, happy and relaxed. It seems they can eat clay or soil or sand for a number of reasons, or for no apparent reason. And with regard to psyllium, living on a Florida sand hill and knowing of horses that die of sand colic every year, I DO give my boys psyllium one week of every month and if the Vet. hears sand in their intestines on a routine visit, I will do a few extra days as well. It seems psyllium can act as a digestive aid, and I have monitored the amount of sand in the manure over the course of a 7-day treatment, finding more sand exiting on day 5 than on day 1. There may be no scientific basis for it, but if you pick up the manure balls they do feel sticky during the course of psyllium passing through their system (theory is, it picks up sand as it passes through). I also have one horse that has a long-standing digestive problem. I give him a cup of psyllium EVERY day (and a cup and a half one week a month) to avoid watery manure that creates a mess on back legs, butt and tail.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 4:23 am:

Hi, Jos,
I have seen this recently with two horses. My yearling, for a couple of months around 5mo of age and his crazy mother full time. Both very healthy looking and with a challenging character.
I do not think there was any deficiency in their food. This is just my feeling, however, as we have no laborartories to analyse things around here.
The mare died about a year ago to salmonella, so I do not know how or if this behaviour could have been corrected. She was, however, a very cranky animal, not inspiring the best hopes for any modification of character or behaviour.
The colt stopped this at around 7-8mo. This could be from a new supply of clover we got, but I think it was mostly due to castration, growing up and subsequent calming down in general. He was chewing a bit on the barn (and on people) during this digging period. He was also very "expressive" with his front hooves. All this was straightened more or less by itself as he grew up a bit, so I think it was behavioural.
The mare had a self resolving gas colic once in the two years I was with her. It can be that her general foul attitude was because of minor colics, but I didn't manage to track anything down.
The little one hasn't been anywhere near a colic as far as I know.
I do not think this digging-with-a-purpose habit is because of colic. Pawing yes, but I think this is different. However, it can be that the nervousness or stress that triggers this digging also triggers a colic, so you may see these together.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 4:43 am:

Forgot to say that I can't remember a horse digging after work. Pawing impatiently to be untacked yes, but no digging for roots and such when turned out after work. Not that I remember, anyway.
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:32 pm:

Vicky, I have fed her two different types of 'medicinal clay'[vertagil and veendrenkstof]and didn't see any improvement. The psyllium though I could try, the article on this site made me decide against it bat as it doesn't seem to do any harm[except financial] it is worth a try.
Christos, I am afraid your description of your mare comes close although I would not say mine has a foul character[being the owner i wouldn't would I?] she is the most intelligent horse i have worked with in about 30 years,alas she also is very easily annoyed and then reacts really agressive. On the other hand she has an exceptional working attitude as long as nothing goes wrong and she approves of her trainer[ she got rid of 2 in 2 weeks time last year]As the article on colic states horses only in pasture have less chance on colic which is why I stopped lungeing her.If this is boredom like a stable vice I could start again she seems to enjoy it.Thanks so far for all these reactions it is comforting to me I do not seem to make very obvious mistakes and she is not the only horse in this world with such ridiculous behaviour.
Jos
Member:
Canter

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 8:30 am:

Jos,
I'm thinking that perhpas your mare is bored and needs more to do? Based on your statements and my own experience with my mare last fall, it sounds like a possibility. Last fall when my mare was on stall rest with handwalking only, I noticed her licking the dirt as I let her graze. I'd never noticed it before and have not seen this behavior since after she was pronounced sound and I put her back to work.
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:56 am:

Fran, I'm afraid you are right. She should be ashamed of herself 9 acres of pasture, her brother to keepher company, all different kinds of horses dogs people and agricultural machinery passing each day,trees in her pasture access to an sand arena what more could a horse desire? The problem is she is to dangerous for most people to work with and a professional wants her in an environment where she should be stabled more and then she starts boxwalking and messing around with het water etc. I guess I will have to lunge her myself and try tomake it varied enough to amuse madam.I was advised to breed her to give her something to do but we think a charcter flaw also is a reason to not breed a horse.Maybe I should consider a stallion with a phlegmatic attitude. I first wanted to be as sure as possible this is not a fysical problem but general consensus seems to point to pica, and I tend to agree with this after reading all these reactions.
Jos
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:01 pm:

A lot of people suggest breeding a mare to change her personality, but as a breeder, I have personally never seen it happen. Infact, it sometimes seems to make a nervous horse more nervous (now about the foal on top of her "other worries") and a "vicious" horse even more so because she's now being protective of her foal. So, I would consider carefully before deciding to breed your mare.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:42 pm:

Jos, do you mind explaining a bit why she is too dangerous for most people to work with? Will she bite or kick unprovoked, for instance?
I believe that being too much of a horse is not a character flaw and may actually be a reason to breed her, not cull her.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:17 pm:

Good point, Christos. I was automatically assuming the "worst."
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:41 pm:

Sara I agree a horses personality will not change by breeding,the idea was to give her a 'job'.I will not breed her however until she has worked with me for at least 6 months and proves herself 'sensible'when approached correctly.
Christos the problem is if the rider or person who lunges her makes the smallest mistake,wrong aid or not very clear in what is asked from her she will immediately stand still and put her ears back,repeat whatever went wrong in her opinion and she will get rid of her rider jump the fence of the outdoor arena[1.30 m]and go off and ofcourse then panicks and galops around like an idiot and exhaust herself completely, I saw this happen last year.The trainer in my opinion didn't 'breath'enough with her hands[she has a very sensitive mouth]but did urge her forward.[treatening with her whip]I thoughtthe horse was right but overreacted dangerously. After that I asked someone who works with standardbred and tb's hoping she would be able to handle such a 'hot'horse better. She didn't even start working with her she was afraid to be with the horse even in pasture[She laid back her ears and threatened to attack]I must add this was shortly after her previous experience so she wasn't to happy about strangers at that time. After this she started shaking whenever I tried to just walk her in the arena and got upset.I broke down the wooden fence replaced it with just one electric wire[no elektricity whenever we worked there] and worked a few days calmly with her on the lungerein.As she accepted this and stayed calm though not enthusiastic I stopped working her for a few months she now reacts quite pleasurable even enthusiastic as long as I work her myself.The two riders from the showjumper stable who worked her for about 4 months liked working with her but warned me the grooms couldn't ride her same story one mistake and she wouldn't move anymore [she jumped their fences around the arena to but with less disastrous results because she was at that moment just being lunged. She would have gone back there if it hadn't been for her behaviour in the stable[ very nervous boxwalking losing weigth etc.]which made me decide she would be better off at home.
Jos
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:05 pm:

Jos, imo this is not a "horse" problem, but a "trainer" probllem. Sounds to me like there is nothing wrong with your horse other than being very sensitive and terrified of her bad experience. I think you did the right thing by bringing her home and working with her yourself. Later, though, she probably needs to learn that she can trust other people ( at least some of them!) and you need to find a sensitive (and sensible) trainer willing to spend a lot of time with her and go slowly. Sounds to me like your mare could turn out to be quite a jumper, at least ability wise! Did you say how old she is?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:23 pm:

Jos,
Sounds like this mare is an exceptionally difficult challenge. If she can't be ridden, what about a little bit of lunge work, as you suggest, and then start her on some sort of "games", such as the Parelli training. I do not personally have experience with it, but from what I have heard (and read here on HA), it may help to build trust plus keep your mare interested enough to prevent bad behavior/habits.

Good luck...sounds like you will need it!
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:59 pm:

Sarah, she is seven years old and I agree with this being a 'traainer'problem,but you shouldn't get the impression the trainers were completely ignorant one had her own to horses ridden from 'green to Z dressage[includes counter canter travers legyielding and simple flying changes]and Z jumping[1.30m] The problem is some horses need 'Ludger Beerbaum'level but are good but not good enough jumpers for such riders. Apart from that her stable behaviour in my opinion prevents areal showjumping career, all the traveling and being in different stables would be her biggest problem. And at home I cannot provide a good enough rider.
Fran, lungework is working well right now, normally I like to work my horses also loose in the arena which I suppose is a variation on what you call 'round pen 'work,at the moment I like to keep the lunge on because I still am afraid that if she gets excited she will forget herself and[again] jump anything in her way which would mean I could start all over again. Too bad there isn't much information available[apart from books]on these games over here,I would have been interested.
Yes I will need luck, and patience and all of my gathered experience. Someone once said to me:trouble starts when your horse has more ability then you have, I couldn't agree more.
Jos
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:14 pm:

Thanks for your reply, Jos. Your description of this mare, reminds me so much of my lost love...

Member:
Lilo

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:34 pm:

Hi Jos,

I have worked for about 2 years with a Parelli trainer. I still use a lot of the techniques, especially with ground work. I am giving the address for a website in the UK - do not know if that helps. Quite frankly, even though one can get the video tapes and "teach oneself" from them, I really believe that working with a Parelli trainer is preferable. The trainer should be at least at Level 3. Every horse is different - and your horse sounds as if it would be a real challenge.

https://www.parelliuk.com/

Best of luck,
Lilo
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:22 pm:

Thanks for the pareli site lilo,even if I won't be able to use some of the techniques for the mare[ with her i think I will stick to things I am experienced in] I am certain her little brother will enjoy himself with this kind of work. I agree working without a
good trainer on something new is not wise.
Christos if I am really fed up with her I will by her a planeticket to Greece and tell her to go become one of your new loves.
I would like to thank all of you for your responses, especially Dr O for his never failing common sense answers, I now am reasonably sure I am not dealing with a sick horse[at this moment!]but with a 'pasturevice'.Talking about this problem made it easier for me to decide how to proceed.
Jos
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 2:58 pm:

I'll be in Aachen for the winter, Jos. DrOp me a line if you are really fed up with her by then.
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:03 pm:

To everyone who took the time to react on my post:meet the subject of the discussion. Rennaissance Z V.RexZ[ratina x full brother Rebel 1]M.Corona HSP stamm474a Reichsgraf-Aldato-Warthburg.





Margotklein
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:09 pm:

You are killing me, Jos...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:47 pm:

jos - she's lovely!
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 3:49 pm:

No Christos but perhaps she would.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 5:04 pm:

Come on, Jos, such a magnificent animal can only add years in my life. I honestly hope I can meet her some day.
Seriously, now, at what pressure do you inflate the hindquarters?
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 7:52 pm:

jos, she's beautiful!
Member:
Redalert

Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 9:22 pm:

Just want to reiterate ... BEAUTIFUL HORSE!!!
Great picture,lucky girl!
Nancy
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:29 am:

Perhaps my English is deficient but I don't know what you mean Christos.
Yes Nancy I know I am lucky if only because she gives me a headache from time to time with such trivial problems. Each day I read the new posts[very informing]and count my blessings.
Jos
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 6:27 am:

Your English is fine, Jos, it may be my humour that's suffering.

I am just joking about her hindquarters, it is so round and beautifully big that may be you inflate it with a pump.

PS: That boy on your profile is magnificent too!
Member:
Canter

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 9:21 am:

Wow! Absolutely lovely, Jos. Best wishes in "taming" her wild temperament. I can only imagine what her potential could be...
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 11:16 am:

The boy on my profile is her little brother Caretano x Corona [little 1.70m she is 1.72]The only thing I have to tame about him is his desire to follow me around like a curious puppy never had a horse with such a sweet disposition.
Christos if you had those lush Dutch pasturesyour horses would look the same [FAT]
Jos
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:48 pm:

Jos, what beautiful horses! Your mare has such a sweet delicate and intelligent face.

I'm sure you'll be able to get through to her. Thanks for sharing them.
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 3:38 pm:

Jos, What a gorgeous horse! And at first glance I almost fainted. She's the exact image of what Sierra was, right down to the short forelock, white back ankle and white spot. Same neck, shoulders, mane, etc. Unbelievable. Lucky girl!
Best to you both, Shirl
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Friday, Dec 29, 2006 - 7:39 am:

Update on 'mild colics or pica' : in may 2005 I was worried about my mare Renaissance Z because she kept digging holes in her[very large ] paddock and ate sand.
She is now living with me in Normandie and has a walk in stable which is the only thing changed from her way of living in Holland over there she got stabled [in a very large outdoor box next to her brother] during the night and during the day she was in a padock. After the first stress of moving[she was for two weeks kept in Holland at the firm who transported them both she and her brother refused to eat or stay in the paddock until they were accompanied by two shetlanders.The people of the transport firm made a special trip for them to Normandie to deliver them as soon as possible because they were afraid they would get sick from stress/homesick!] At their arrival over here they started eating immediately and after a few weeks I stopped enclosing them for the night. From that point on the mare NEVER dug any holes in any part of their fields or tried to eat sand.
It seems to me some horses just do not like to be locked in!
Jos
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Saturday, Dec 30, 2006 - 11:43 pm:

Thank you, jos, for the closure. So thoughtful of you and I'm so glad it actually resolved itself. It helps so much to know the ending!
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