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  Discussion on Diagnosis: Lyme Disease
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Member:
martina

Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 3:01 pm:

Hello! My horse Ranger has tested positive (220 + Western Blot) for Lyme. My vet now has him on oral doxycycline for 21 days. Original symptoms were difficulty walking (lame front) and moving/placing feet (hind), a stiff gait, and general lethargy. I inspect my horses every night (ears to toes to tail) and have never seen a tick on either one. Wouldn't the tick have had to have attached itself and fed for awhile? Is there a length of time between the tick bite and the onset of symptoms? Just curious if anyone else has had a similar experience.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 3:53 pm:

Tina,

Even with close daily inspections it would probably be impossible to find every tick that attached and fed on a horse that spends time on pasture or is ridden in grassy or wooded areas. Deer ticks are small.

Your state appears to be one of the higher risk ones for Lyme.

Here is the map from the Lyme Disease Foundation and also one from the CDC:
https://www.aldf.com/usmap.shtml
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 4:27 pm:

Vicki's right, Tina. I live in NJ too and almost everyone I know has or has had Lyme's and not one of them ever saw the tick. (My barn help arrived to feed at noon today--said he couldn't get out of bed because he has Lyme's.)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jul 3, 2009 - 9:19 pm:

I would note that in experimental infections of horses with Lyme disease, even using tick vectors the time from exposure to the onset of clinical disease is basically infinite: horses have not developed clinical disease experimentally. The nature of Lyme Disease and horses essentially remains clinically controversial and scientifically unknown.
DrO
Member:
amara

Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 6:09 pm:

In endemic areas, it is very common for animals (and humans) to have a positive response to the lyme test, whether or not they have lyme disease. I am from the northeast, and will maintain that I have seen horses (among others) get lyme disease - or at least something so similar to it that it responded to the same treatment! I have had lyme disease myself (and still have effects from it, nearly 10 years later). My understanding of lyme is that the tick needs to be attached for approximately 24 hrs for the transmission of the disease. the ticks are quite small, and can be missed, even by the most persnickety horse owner. Vague flu like symptomscan develop within the week, or take as long as 2 months. In humans, the bulls eye rash only appears about 50% of the time. Stiffness and general lethargy are one of the more common symptoms, as well as travelling lameness. Honestly, if there wasnt a travelling lameness I would wonder if it wasnt another disease.

Good luck
Member:
martina

Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 9:08 pm:

Thank you, all!

Dr. O, I understand when you say that Lyme disease in horses is "clinically controversial and scientifically unknown" but is it the tests themselves are questionable? Or what is the basis of the controversy?

As Melissa points out from her experience, is there something else that could "mimic" Lyme and respond to the same treatment?

I am happy to report that just after 2 days of oral doxycycline, I already see a small improvement in Ranger's gait, although he remains lethargic.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jul 4, 2009 - 11:00 pm:

The test is a reliable indicator of horses that have become infected. We explain the controversy in detail in the article on Lymes Disease.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 11:31 pm:

My horse was recently 'retired' to a new farm. For the last 3 weeks, he was observed to be on/off lame in the field. Yesterday, he would barely walk. I thought he was foundering. I called the vet out, found a temperature of 105.2 degrees, and he was covered with ticks. After his first treatment of IV tetracycline, almost back to normal this morning. A blood test is being done for lyme, but is now on doxycycline treatment. I am convinced his on/off and then extreme lameness yesterday was caused by lyme or some other tick borne disease.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 8:28 am:

Amy,

I would not put much stock in the fact that your horse has recovered from his lameness because of the Tetracycline. If your horse had a temperature of 105 deg, most likely your vet gave him bute to knock down the temp and it is the anti-inflamatory properties of the Bute that make him appear better.

Try and see if there is something else going on other than the Lymes Disease that is causing his problem.

Dr. O has some good articles on Lymes and the controversy of its occurrence in horses.

My entire family including all my domestic pets have been tested and treated for Lymes disease in a variety of different organism based forms. However my 22 year old gelding that has lived in my backyard (for 15 years) in the middle of a paddock where everyone else's ticks were picked up, does not show any symptoms of the disease. I've picked ticks off my other horses and none of those horses show any signs of Lymes disease either.

I am not saying it does not happen in horses, but it may be a completely different organism that reacts differently in horses versus humans and other animals.

Rachelle
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 8:57 am:

Hello Amy,
Many equine viral diseases can give you 105 fevers but it is not reported as a common physical finding in horses with experimental infections or who have naturally acquired positive Lyme titers. A off/on lameness this is a common presentation in almost any cause of mild lameness.

It is always a mistake to concentrate on a single possible cause with such general symptoms as you describe here, this might prevent you from finding the real cause. Always consider all the common disorders as a range of possibilities and if necessary ways to differentiate them. Unfortunately a positive Lyme test is a common finding in healthy horses in endemic areas making it difficult to assess it's significance.
DrO
Member:
paladin

Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 1:49 pm:

I live in an endemic area and am one of the few that screens my 2 horses/1 dog for titers once or twice a year.

Over the past 6 years, my 2 horse's titers have fluctuated between 0-360, often returning to 0 after a moderate titer without treatment. If I get a moderate titer, I test again in 6-8 weeks to see what it's doing. If the horse were symptomatic, I would retest more quickly.

I know of several people that have had a positive titer, treated, and it seems any time the horse is off, they test and treat again.

I don't see how you can protect a pasture/trail horse from exposure in an endemic area. I fear it has become somewhat of a default diagnosis.

Is there any danger of routine treatment interfering with a horse's natural immune response to this organism over the long term? The research I've read regarding treatment suggests that 30 days of doxy is not adequate to eliminate the organism in newly established infections (Cornell/ponies), let alone well-etablished infections that are probably the case with horses in endemic areas (assuming they are affected by the disease).

When I read the accounts of humans diagnosed with persistent Lyme's and the years of treatment with advanced drugs, mutation of the organism, dormancy, etc., the bacteria sounds like a pretty bad bug. I can only hope that horse's are fairly resistant to it and we get more research soon.
Member:
besis111

Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 8:13 pm:

My horse was barely walking on Friday. I thought for sure he must be foundering. He's a 20 year old, healthy TB who moved to a new farm with 3 other horses in his large field in March. I was unable to determine if any one particular leg was the problem. It was like he was extremely lame on all 4 legs and was extremely reluctant to move forward. Since he's been retired, I haven't been grooming him regularly. But the farm owners told me a lot of their horses were covered with ticks. That's when I checked him and realized that he was indeed covered (we're in Maryland). I thought maybe the tick bites themselves had made him 'sick'. In any case, I don't think one shot of banamine would make a horse that could barely walk almost sound within a 12 hour period. He has only had 2 doses of banamine (Friday night and Saturday morning), and while he looks a bit stiff still, otherwise completely sound.

If not lyme disease, what other illnesses do you think could make a horse extremely lame, produce a high fever and respond to antibiotics? If not lyme, I would like to make sure I have him tested/treated in the appropriate way. By the way, his CBC came back today -- all normal. His lyme results will be back by the end of the week.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Amy
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2010 - 2:37 am:

Amy, I know. I've treated one mare of mine twice, with Doxy. She's had the same symptoms each time. The temperature, the misery, the lameness and the history of tick exposure. Each time, her titers were increasing. Each time, the vet thought it looked like founder at first....and it wasn't. We had her shoes pulled, the digital x-rays taken...and her feet were fine. Both times.

If it's not Lymes, then it's something that the course of Doxy helps. My mare was never given Bute or Banamine because she's had such a bad ulcer history.

And if anyone wonders what I'm doing up at this hour....it's the PBR World Cup!! The stoopid HOCKEY playoffs knocked it back to 12:30AM!!! Looks like Brazil takes it!! Mike Lee, USA...LOVE YA!!
Member:
besis111

Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2010 - 10:06 am:

Hi, Lee. I wonder why people are so reluctant to believe that this set of symptoms is caused from either lyme or some other type of bacteria transmitted by ticks. Maybe if we just called it "a bacterial infection that has systemic effects (including lethargy, fever, stiffness and lameness), transmitted through a tick bite or other means, and responds to tetracycline" --that would be more acceptable.

Amy

PS: Hope the game turned out the way you wanted!
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 11:08 am:

I don't think anyone has trouble believing that the symptoms can be caused by an infection. I don't think we know it is cause by the tick bite or that it is Lyme. I think the distinction is important because knowing the source of the infection and the agent can lead to better preventive care. Ignorance cannot. So, while it may be clear that these horses immune systems are responding to some bacteria. The source and the type remain unclear.
Another important point is that a positive for Lyme may not identify the cause of lameness. So, you could start treating for a bacteria but not be treating the cause.
Member:
besis111

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 11:22 am:

Hi, Guy. As I said, he was on/off lame for several weeks before progressing to severe stiffness/lameness which resembled founder. He responded within 12 hours to a dose of IV tetracycline. He also had a fever. He also is in an area covered in ticks and he himself is covered in ticks. Any suggestions on what else I should be looking for in terms of his lameness and fever? Of course I'm interested in treating the cause of his symptoms.

Dr. O. -- what are the differentials I should be considering?

Thanks for you thoughts.

Amy
Member:
paladin

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 1:45 pm:

Hi Amy,

If my horse were ever covered in ticks, I would treat him immediately (endemic area). Ticks carry a number of diseases.

I can't imagine being covered in ticks, because he reacts strongly to a single tick bite, I fear he would be very sick as well.

It seems to me that so many tick bites would be such an overload for the immune system, it would probably benefit from some help in your case.

I didn't mean to sound like I'm against treating horses for tick infections. I'm just leery of treating every time a horse tests positive for Lymes, which is often recommended in my area. The reasons being, it is not clear to me how the disease affects horses and if treatment is effective beyond short term relief from symptoms. I worry about frequent treatments detracting from the horse's natural resistance to the disease and/or enhancing the organism's resistance to the treatment. Especially when they live with near constant exposure.

I don't know if my worries have any basis in reality or not. I've never studied the immune system and I've only read some research on this disease.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2010 - 12:22 am:

Well, the research shows that the disease, so far, can't be clinically induced in the lab setting. So the doubts are very understandable. Also, in an endemic area, where they are constantly exposed, they will always show antibodies. It's tough.

There is one thing I've noticed, and I'd be curious to see if anyone else with affected horses has seen it. I have 3 mares. Two of them have bad reactions to certain tick bites ( especially Lone Star ). There is localized swelling that ends up as a walnut sized abscess that I treat with hot soaks and antibiotic ointment. Their other tick bites are red welts that itch horribly. Those two mares have never gotten sick. The third mare, is an appendix QH with many thoroughbred characteristics. She has the fine skin and hair coat. Although she gets just as many bites as the others, she has no local reactions to the bites. All she shows is some minor itching. This is the mare that has been treated with doxy twice, for Lymes. She's the only horse I've ever had that is susceptible to rain rot, and there are other things that make me think that her immune system might not be the greatest.

Sooo....my question would be: could her non-reactiveness to the tick bites point to a weak immune system which would leave her more susceptible to a the generalized infection?
Member:
paladin

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2010 - 1:27 pm:

Mike Lee, I have two geldings. Their titers most recently (last 4 years) have been (0, 120, 0, 0, 0, 360) and (60, 240, 60, 0, 240, 60, 227).

The first horse does have the stronger reaction to the bites (swelling, oozing), although they both develop good bumps/irritation. He's also hypersensitive to lots of things...lots of seasonal allergies, some issues with scratches, allergic to penicillin, rashes that appear typical of sweet itch although allergy panel does not indicate culicoides hypersensitivity (I believe he is though). So he might be considered to have a hyper-active immune system.

I've never thought to differentiate the reaction to the type of tick. Both of mine show a good, maybe healthy response to the bites, and both have seemed to be able to return to a "zero" antibody titer (whatever that may indicate). Neither has ever shown symptoms of Lymes (that I've been able to distinguish).

Because I live in an endemic area, I keep pastures cut low, trees limbed high, natural repellents applied, and 2X tick checks daily. I'm pretty sensitive to when they're not feeling well.

I also have 6+ years of tracking a Siberian Husky. He received the vaccine before he ever tested positive, was never symptomatic, ran much higher titers, was treated every year (which was hard on him), died at 15 of an oral melanoma. He did not even show any age-related stiffness until his final year. He was exposed much less and had the benefit of Frontline Plus. Finding a tick on him was extremely unusual and he was not allowed to roam free.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2010 - 1:43 pm:

Hello Amy,
It is difficult to come up with a list of differentials for a case where you have not examined the horse but the influenza virus causes all the symptoms you list including generalized muscle soreness. If you would like a list of possible causes of fever check out Diseases of Horses » Fever of Unknown Origin. Any infectious process and fever can precipitate founder but usually it is associated with bacterial infections that release toxins.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2010 - 1:59 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O. I didn't realize why my vet was so distraught over my horse's 105.2 temp until later, when I realized that a high fever can cause founder! I should have known that. I suppose it's possible he could have had the flu, except for the fact that none of the other horses are sick and he was vaccinated for flu/rhino in the late fall. Also, it seems as though his white count would have been up on his CBC test. I've read your article on fevers of unknown origin (from a time when my daughter's horse had a high fever). I'll re-read it.

Thanks!

Amy
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 21, 2010 - 11:42 pm:

((SIGH))Had my large flat coated retreiver to the vet today for lethargy, joint pain and stiffness and inappetence. Erlichiosis again...despite the frontline, and Deep Woods Off. A few ticks got through early this year. My mares are all good so far. I treat all the perimeters of my pastures and paddocks each year with Ortho Maxx for Lawns. It's supposed to be "all season long", but I find I need about two more applications to really keep the ticks down. My problem with the dog is, that I have elderly neighbors "next door" that I help out daily with their livestock ( cattle, horses, goats, and chickens ). My dog "lives" to help move the cows and horses around, over there, and the shortest route to the farm next door is through the woods.
Yeah...we've pulled quite a few ticks off her...Darn it!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 5:52 am:

Neither perimeter treatments or repellents are likely to be effective Lee. Ticks do not tend to travel far from where they are DrOpped, instead they are spread by other mammals including wild life (rodents, deer, etc...). And repellents like deet and pyrethrins are not going to protect 24 hours a day. Frontline has not been well studied but to apply a weighted dose is prohibitively expensive. Religiously treating the dogs and cats with Frontline, discouraging wild life, and mowing the grass and horse areas very short are the most effective preventives. If you are getting breakthrough with the dogs discuss the use of a Preventic collar with your veterinarian.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 9:25 am:

Scary stuff, and so hard to avoid. I have a dog who was lame (do you call dogs lame when they're limping??) and not eating well. Took him to the vet and he tested positive to lyme. I was skeptical as to whether or not his symptoms were indeed related to the lyme (as we've discussed here). But they checked his records, and 6 months earlier when he was in for a regular check up, they'd done a routine lyme test that was negative. So I was more convinced that it was in fact causing his symptoms. He was treated, and got mostly better, although he has remained a bit gimpy. He's a large 14-year old shepherd mix, so I guess it's normal at this age to have arthritis regardless.
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 1:50 pm:

Frontline used to be effective here but there is now a lot of resistance to it. K9 Advantix still seems to work really well. Expensive though if you have a lot of dogs.
Member:
besis111

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 3:31 pm:

I just got off the phone with my vet. She said that my horse is positive for lyme, with all 4 bars on the western blot positive and a titer of 440. I'm not at all surprised, based on all the evidence that supported that diagnosis. I know Dr. O. is not convinced that his symptoms were caused by the lyme bacteria, but I am. :-) We're going to vaccinate with the dog vaccine to try to prevent another infection down the road.

Amy
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 3:59 pm:

Good luck, Amy.

Ticks are a real pain!
Member:
besis111

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 4:36 pm:

Thanks, Vicki. I'll keep everyone posted on his progress. He still looked a little stiff when I last saw him on Sunday. I'm hoping this weekend he's back to his beautiful, normal self.

Oh, and a trick for feeding doxy... he refused to eat his feed when crushed and mixed in with his grain. The farm owners weren't crazy about the idea of having to dose it, so we tried just throwing the tabs into he feed, and voila. He ate them all up! Here's a picture for anyone that's interested. It was taken a few years ago.
Member:
paladin

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 5:13 pm:

Hope your horse is feeling better soon! I'd enjoy hearing about his progress and whether your vet checks titers post treatment?

Tina, how is Ranger doing?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 6:01 pm:

Amy,

I had to give this drug to my horse Lance when he was gravely ill so experimented with what would work for him.

We believe that his malady was quite likely an extremely bad case of the tick-borne Ehrlichiosis.

Ultimately he ate the drugs when I ground the tablets and mixed them with a minimal amount of applesauce and then added it to his pelleted feed.

If there was too much applesauce making the mix too wet, he rejected it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 7:34 pm:

Amy I am skeptical about the diagnosis of a disease (Lyme Disease) caused by a etiology (B. burgdorferi) that despite repeated experimental attempts to recreate disease and many carefully conducted epidemiological studies do not find an association with an increased incidence or any disease. You would be wise to be skeptical too.

However that is not the same as not deciding to treat a fever of unknown origin with doxycycline. For more on my real thoughts on this see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Lyme Disease, Borreliosis, in Horses.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 12:08 am:

Dr. O. --I respect and appreciate your opinion. However...my horse showed symptoms of lyme disease (as described in my above posts); he was diagnosed with lyme disease based on those symptoms; he responded to treatment of lyme disease (tetracycline and doxycycline); and in fact his test results were positive to lyme disease. I understand that there is uncertainty as to the correlation between antibodies and symptoms based on the the study that was done. But in my opinion, my horse did contract lyme disease from the tick bites he received, and his symptoms were a result of the disease and not just a coincidence. And my feeling is that it is just as much of a disservice to horse owners to say that lyme disease is not a possible cause for lameness, fever, personality and performance change, etc., even in the face of overwhelming evidence. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks.

Amy
Member:
paladin

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 10:51 am:

Amy, I'm glad your horse is feeling better.

I didn't read anyone saying that Lyme disease is not a possible cause for lameness.

Since you live in an endemic area and you've retired your horse to include at least some field board in a tick infested area, what is your long-term strategy for this disease?

This is where I really get troubled by the science vs. the current protocols (in my area at least) for treating this disease.

Science:

They have been unable to induce the disease in horses by infecting with the bacteria.

30 days of tetracyline has been shown to eliminate the bacteria in a study done on newly infected ponies. 30 days of doxy did not. I don't know that any studies have been done on horses with long-standing infections or with the 1 week of tetracyline followed by the doxy treatment.


Observations:

If my horse's screens have been accurate, a moderate/high titer will come down on its own and I'd be interested to confirm if maybe it's not as quickly as with treatment. What impacts may treatment have on that natural response and what are the implications of that impact for future response? What are the impacts of an ineffective treatment on a rapidly reproducing bacteria?

So if there truly is no harm in repeatedly treating the symptoms (I'm not convinced), that's probably what I'd do. That's not practical for owners that have large numbers or limited funds. Otherwise, I believe you have to consider stall boarding with limited turn-out which is a huge sacrifice in quality of life as well as creating many other health issues.

My biggest concern as stated above is potential negative impacts of such casual, scientifically unsupported treatment that we see in the endemic areas (not by all vets of course). Others are more concerned that a quick diagnosis, treatment, and temporary relief from symptoms often causes owners to miss the real problems.

Your case is a bit different though. I would classify that many tick bites at once and that high of fever as an emergency. Your decision to treat is much more clear-cut and supported. And, I think you're a very caring owner and your horse is lucky to have you.
Member:
besis111

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 11:15 am:

Dr. O told me I should be skeptical. But to me, my horse's case is cut and dry. If he's skeptical about MY horse's symptoms being caused by lyme, than in what instance would he NOT be skeptical?? To me, that's the same as saying that lyme doesn't cause lameness, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

I understand and agree with the concern of over treating for Lyme disease —both from the standpoint of potentially lessening the horse's own natural immune response and general concern over side effects/risks of long term antibiotic use, as well as a risk of missing other causes of the horse's symptoms. I would definitely NOT treat a horse who didn't have symptoms. My posts above, however, were directly in response to the situation with my horse.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. It's a good discussion to have.

Amy
Member:
besis111

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 11:25 am:

Paladin-- I considered my options for my horse's boarding situation in light of the horrible tick problems that come with living out in the country with fields of grass. However I decided I'd rather him have a couple good years being happy and living the life he deserves after 20 years of being a racehorse/show horse, than move him back to a stalled living environment where he'd more more 'safe'. So I agree with your point about that in your above post.

Oh, also --thanks for saying I'm a caring horse owner :-). I'm sure all of us here are -- just some differing of opinions. But it's important to lay all concerns/ideas/science on the table.

Thanks again.

Amy
Member:
martina

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 3:58 pm:

Paladin and Amy, having started this post originally (back in July 2009) I've been following the discussion with interest. Paladin, thanks for asking about Ranger. He fully recovered after the 21 days of oral doxycycline and has not shown any repeat symptoms. As horse owners, I think we need to listen/absorb as much as we can from various sources, but then weigh that with our experiences, our specific situations, and our particular horses to arrive at the best course of action. At least that's worked for me thus far.
Member:
besis111

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 4:11 pm:

Hi, Tina. I'm in 100% agreement with your philosophy. Great news that Ranger is doing well!!!
Thanks for the update, and sorry to have high-jacked your original post!

Amy
Member:
paladin

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 8:00 pm:

I'm very glad to hear Ranger is doing so well, Tina and thank you for the update. Did you get a titer after treatment? What was the time interval between the two titers?

Amy, I hope your horse is back to his old, happy self soon.

Good discussion and thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 7:04 am:

As an addendum to this discussion and only because this is the first year in many years that I am trying this on my dogs( Previously used the spot on treatment). I started an experiment.

Instead of using Frontline or Advantix on my dogs, I bought flea and tick collars that profess to have a 5 month efficiency and are able to get wet @8.99. When the ticks start coming out, I am constantly checking the dogs and picking off the ones I find.

Usually by this time with the warmer weather, I would have quite a collection and would be into the second monthly treatment @ $55 a pop for both dogs. So far, I have not picked off one tick and my one dog that usually starts itching right about the time it starts to warm up, has not started the itching cycle. I have been monitoring their necks and eyes from any irritation from the chemicals in the collars but so far I have not seen anything.

Hmmm, do they make flea and tick collars for horses?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 12:24 pm:

Maybe you could take the dog ones and hook them together or use them around legs, tail head, and cut off to size?

No doubt some individuals would experience irritation, but others might do just fine depending upon their degree of skin sensitivity and type of coat.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 10:13 am:

Hello Amy,
From Merriam Webster's online dictionary, the number two definition best describes my meaning above: Skepticism: the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain.

The article I reference in my earlier post gives a set of diagnostic characteristics I would look for. I think the strongest cases are those with typical signs of Lyme disease, chronic polyarthritis, that have positive western blot tests from synovial samples of effected joints.

Amy your horse did not have typical signs of Lyme disease as defined by those in the Northeast who do diagnose this disease, among others I would reference Thomas Divers excellent reviews of the subject that appear almost yearly for the last decade in numerous publications. High fever is not a typical symptom of Lyme disease. And unlike your statement suggests, there is no uncertainty about the fact that titers are common in horses in endemic areas in horses that have had no history of undiagnosed disease or unexplained fevers, at least not in higher incidence than horses that do not have titer to Borrelia.

As others have pointed out Amy we are not arguing against your choice of treatment or even the idea this might be a case of disease caused by Borrelia. I would argue it is unlikely from the information you present to us and the scientific knowledge available at this time.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 8:29 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O. I understand that you are skeptical and understand the case you're making against lyme disease. But if his set of symptoms is not related to his high titer and positive western blot, it's one hell of a red herring. I know there is hesitation to treat a horse with antibiotics without a definitive diagnosis, but considering that my horse has responded so well to the treatment, I would argue (based on all the information you've provided) that owners with horses that have chronic polyarthritis (with or without fever, lethargy, or other symptoms), might save themselves a lot of money by not running a test for lyme which is apparently useless (unless you're willing to test their joint fluid) and go straight to treatment. I'm sorry if it feels like I'm being hard headed or difficult--that's not my intention. And I do appreciate being made aware that this disease may not be the correct diagnosis in many instances. However, in this particular case, I feel like you're the juror refusing to believe that the matching dna, fingerprints, and smoking gun in the hand of the defendant makes him guilty. But skepticism is a good thing, and I do appreciate all of your thoughts and information on studies that have been done on the subject. I hope that you, too, are finding our 'anecdotal' experiences at least food for thought.

Amy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 - 4:30 pm:

amy your horse got better as to whether it was the antibiotic is unknown. Almost all horses with unexplained fevers get better on their own. The problem with your analogy is the DNA is a acute infection with high fever, this is not Lyme's DNA profile, the fingerprints of Lyme is that of chronic arthritis and are not present at the scene, and that the majority of scientific investigation suggest that Lyme disease is a gun with no bullets whether it is smoking of not.
DrO
Member:
besis111

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 - 4:50 pm:

Okay, you've kind of lost me now, but that's ok. I get your point, and you get mine (I think). I readily admit that I don't have the scientific and medical knowledge that you have. So I'll let you have the last word. Thanks again for the advice.

Amy
Member:
kshayden

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 - 9:48 pm:

I just want to note that a couple of years ago, my male shepherd showed signs of a tick born disease. The vet didn't think so (because I live in CA) but I insisted on the $ 400 of blood tests to test for every variety and also to start him on doxy right away - I was so convinced.
Happy to say, the doxy did the trick, along with rest and attention - and that $ 400 was a waste of money because every test came back negative -

Doxy is a great antibiotic for some stuff and really makes a world of difference in 24 hours - for many different situations - just like I feel amazing when taking prednisone...LOL.

I also have to add - when canine influenza was going around, I 'insisted' one of my young shepherds was stricken with it. I insisted on IV fluids and to treat her as if even though the vet didn't think she had it and statistics said it 'wasn't in CA yet...the sample took 2 weeks to get the results back from Cornell - but sure enough, she had it, and so did a few other dogs she had been exposed to. 2 had died, which is why I insisted <wink>.

Kathy
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