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| Discussion on EMS and the stressed grass/no clover experiment 2 | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 - 7:46 am: continuation of https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/327094.htmlAs always my other thread was getting long winded, but I want to follow through with this until winter and see how it goes. Hoping I don't bore you all to tears with it, but people with IR horses understand I hope! My 1st "experimental pasture" is starting to get short grass in it and I have been contemplating switching the horses to the other "experimental pasture" It LOOKS very lush. We are finally going to build a machine shed and part of that pasture is going to be trashed in the process. I told hubby he my as well let the heifers out there to eat it down, no sense of wasting the grass and their pasture is getting short. I opened that pasture up for the heifers last weekend, I thought they would love that lush looking grass. NOPE. Yesterday I walked it and it is funny there is just certain spots they have eaten...just one type of grass...the rest they haven't touched and prefer their short pasture WITH the clover. These heifers have pretty much told me where the "sweet spots" are in that pasture. Interesting enough that is usually where the horses are drawn to too, they are not going to be allowed in that area. The clover has been eliminated, but that certain type of grass must be sweet. I don't know my grass types and am going to take a picture later today hoping someone knows. Lesson learned, observe where your horses like to eat, it's usually the sweet spot. Same with hay if they prefer one cutting to another ect. you know it's "sweeter" Not as good as testing your hay, but horses with a sweet tooth don't lie  I have started getting one bale of hay from each of my suppliers and throwing a leaf of each out...the ones they fight over get eliminated. Their last choice is the hay I buy  Surprisingly enough the stemmy, coarse hay is not always their last choice. |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 12:16 am: HI Diane,Glad you started a part 2 here. I can type on this now. I just got home tonight after being gone for 8 days, think Tango is having some trouble with DP being strong, only one hoof warm, ouchiness again. Seems he's fatter than 8 days ago too, drats. Need to start checking for "cersty neck" forgot about that! Guess us horse moms don't get vacations?! I told my son the horses could go in the west pasture, no more than 4 hours today. It is my longest pasture, but it was too much for Tango apparently. He said Tango raced around lots, and seemed fine. But he wasn't fine tonight. Now to work on making my "track" and MY experiment. Maybe DrO will put a new area for "experiments done by fellow members?"
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 8:37 am: Angie, sounds like Tango is following Hanks problems! All I can say is be careful This may sound strange, but if Hanks DP's pick up, I take him down and work him LIGHTLY....at his pace. It does seem to help him....unless of course you have a case of laminitis going on. If I were in your shoes(and I have been) I would try to get him "sound" and DP's gone before I put him back on grass. IF he is getting bouts of laminitis you may be playing with fire. I just say this because you DO NOT want to go there! The more I think about your track the more it makes sense, I really don't have the room because of the cows. They'd trash that track as fast as I put it up, we are going to start calving in a few days and those calves are destructive! Hanks DP's have disappeared since he got his shoes on  and I can keep him exercised lightly...fetlock thingOtherwise I would be working his butt off! He has a spring in his step again and I love to see that. The "experimental pasture" SEEMS to be working so far. I don't think our experiments are scientific enough for Dr.O. He has been very tolerant tho!!! |
| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 9, 2009 - 1:38 pm: No room around the arena. We are getting ready to put up a machine shed and that is going to take away part on my horse pasture too . I don't know if this relates to Tango or not. Hank AND Sam would get on again off again DP's, slower on hard ground, soft ground he could fool me and look ok. We played that game for a few years until he foundered. That could be why you are having a hard time with Tangos Hooves, those little bouts of laminitis play havoc with them. They change shape, want to flare and pancake, really a farriers/trimmers nightmare! You have seen what happened to his hooves after a full fledge founder. 2 years later and they are finally looking pretty darn good. When the farrier put Hanks shoes back on he said his WL looks better then most horses he does. We really did have to accomplish this with shoes because of his patholgy's. He is barefoot for at least half of the year tho and that helps. Next spring I believe he may be able to go barefoot for ridden work....what a long haul! I may have his hooves x-rayed again when we pull his shoes for the winter, I have a feeling he is finally de-rotated, I just have to give that sole time to thicken up now, and they need protection until then. Good Hooves Diet movement That is what these IR types need. Looking forward to your track experiment. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 - 3:54 am: It has finally happened I got brave and have been letting the horses out ALL day since this weekend (about 10-12hrs.) Only good things have come about so far. Hank has no detectable DP at all. I think instead of standing around in the dry lot all the time and moving around out in pasture is really helping ALL of them.At the end of the last thread I said I was going "natural" and removing all supps. So the mare is off the joint supp and seems more comfortable than she has in a long time. Hank is off the hoof supp and MG..(due to peeing to much). Sam is off the Mg.. Diet consists of grass on "experimental pasture"10-12 hrs, 1 flake of hay AM/PM (crappy hay..3lbs.) Ration balancer (Gro N Win), harvest salt, salt and mineral block. When the vet was here yesterday he said Hank looked GREAT!  . The other 2 are also looking better..dappled, shiny, and healthy...for old coots anyway! I haven't weighed them, but just looking at them I don't think they have gained any weight...will check tonight. Mind you they are not thin by any means I'd put them at a 6 bsc. If they start blowing up I will skim back the turnout time. I swear that clover made them look bloated all the time!
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 - 4:04 am: "Normal horses" grazing in the morning fog...Just amazing!
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 - 4:38 pm: Angie glad Tango is feeling better, I'm sure that track will be good for him, ANYTHING has to be better than standing around in a dry lot (tho necessary sometimes)I weighed the horses tonight and they weigh the same as when I started this experiment . SOOOOO tonight I am taking it to the ultimate level 24/7 turn out!!!! I hope I'm not making a mistake, but my gut says it will be just fine...think I'm finally adjusting to normal horses Guaranteed at the crack of dawn I'll be out checking for DP's LOL, so not completely adjusted! I wish I would have done this years ago, not only do they seem healthier, better attitudes, I get to save lots of $$$$! If they can stay out 24/7....NO bedding...Eliminated supplements....No feeding hay all summer. Grass, ration balancer, and water!! How novel and easy! I might be able to pay the vet off, and have time to ride...If Hanks fetlock would get better! Keep hooves crossed for no DP's or sore hooves in the morning. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 3:33 am: Everyone is FINE, now if we can survive a week of this with no problems I will be convinced.
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| Member: leslie1 |
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| Member: pattyb |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 6:36 am: Got my fingers crossed for you Diane...and I'm looking into that broad leaf killer to get rid of the clover in my big pasture as well.How are they doing with your mineral mix? As in, how much do you put out and how often. This thread is soooo interesting, I can't wait to check it each morning.
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: lilo |
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| Member: kjbm |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 11:37 am: Thanks Lilo I appreciate it!!!Kris, I think clover may be high in protein, so it could make them pee more just like alfalfa seems to. The boarding barn where I used to work always fed pure alfalfa hay... their stalls were always very,very wet! When they switched to mostly grass hay the stalls became much more normal as far as wetness. Clover is a legume like alfalfa so I wouldn't think it a far reach. Again if you believe your horse is IR, research says they pee more for some reason I can't remember right now....something like diabetics I think. In my case I have no doubt it was the MG. removal of it stopped it completely, nothing had changed otherwise (as far as I know anyway) Hank has been a great teacher for me. He is coming around so much in his training and willingness. I don't know if the clover made him a little, actually VERY crazy or what, but he is just calm as a cucumber now! When my husband notices a difference that always speaks Volumes to me...he don't even call him the idiot anymore . I should put all his behavioral changes in here, because it still has me completely floored! Tonight while hubby has baseball on I will do that...some are very hard to explain.
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 5:22 pm: Differences in Hank since the removal of clover and stressed grass/ addition of ration balancer.He is a much more attentive, willing horse. He does not FAKE spook anymore( a biggy) When the vet came to clip his fetlock, he said he really didn't want to tranq him...back leg. I said he will not let me get near him with clippers and I have never pushed the issue as I really have no need to clip anything on him. Well the vet started up the clippers, I was rather mortified and said at least let me rub him with them before you go after the back leg! Hank didn't move a muscle, vet clipped his back fetlock with NO issues HMMM When hubby pushes up the manure pile with the loader tractor the geldings take off running like they have never seen one before..I KNOW they are not scared of it.... Last time they stood there with their back legs cocked watching him rather than running around like idiots! He does not go nuts anymore when there is a bug by him...he would literally flip out if a butterfly flew by his face...not kidding! under saddle and in pasture.that habit is GONE He is not buddy sour anymore, he will willingly go anywhere with me without a fuss. Traffic is a non issue....used to go nuts if a car went by us. SOME of this is because of the liberty training I have been doing...SOME of it is NOT. It's hard to explain what a nice "normal" horse he has turned into...he still has his quirky personality that I really do love, but he isn't an idiot anymore. Just goofy. I can't think of one thing he does anymore that "trips my trigger" and makes me want to sell him He does NOT head dive if I take him across the yard or down to the arena. He gets grass now and is satisfied..EVERY waking moment isn't spent wondering where his next morsel is coming from. I REALLY REALLY have a new and improved Hank and he is wonderful, just enough devil to keep him interesting and fun. I took a pic of him tonight and collaged a pic from right before my experiment, he is a little darker in the pic from tonight...he starts changing color this time of year and it was not sunny...He weighs the same, but if you look closely you can see quite a difference in his body, he doesn't look quite as much like an IR horse or bloated. The first pic is from tonight the 2nd was in June 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 - 5:38 pm: As you can see his "back fat" is gone, his withers are more prominent, his shoulders don't look as fat, his belly looks tighter. I think Little bigger pic from tonight  Little bigger pic from June actually the day I started the experiment 
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 18, 2009 - 6:30 pm: I'm very pleased to say the horses have remained on 24/7 turnout with NO issues. I have not been able to detect a DP in Hank this whole week, and I have been more diligent this week then most . Our grass this summer remains VERY green and lush looking. We've had a cool summer for the most part with lots and lots of rain. I walked their pasture(s) today and the clover has remained GONE and doesn't seem to be reemerging. Their weight is remaining steady....not thin by any means but OK. Since they are on pasture 24/7 I have cut their hay back to 2 leafs twice a day split between the 3 of them about (6 lbs.).. They do gobble it up even tho they have grass available and it is not the greatest hay. They are still getting the ration balancer and that is it, other than a salt block and water. Hanks neck seems to grow a little sometimes which I keep a close eye on. Sometimes it looks almost normal...strange thing that neck of his! It hasn't got hard and grown 3 ins. overnight tho like it did with the clover. His hooves never seem tender anymore either...he does have his front shoes on tho. It's so nice to see all 3 of them go galloping across the bottom. they move around way more than they used to, they actually stay pretty active even the old girl...she isn't quite as rambunctious as the boys, but is holding her own pretty well The other night she wanted to stay in her paddock without the boys...I think they wear her out sometimes..but she was raring to go the next day after her rest from them. So I guess I now have "normal" horses that are IR. IT IS possible! (so far anyway)
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| Member: lilo |
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| Member: vickiann |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 6:34 pm: Hank and herd remain on 24/7 turnout(except when it is extremely muddy). Amazingly enough everyone is doing much better than I had expected.My 2 poster children for IR, Hank AND Sam have not had any Dp's. Sam normally gimps around all summer, never really having a full blown episode of founder, but sore and probably laminatic. He started out the spring like that(before I sprayed the pasture) and He and Hank had constant elevated digital pulses, fat pads on their butts and ribs and VERY cresty necks. Hard ground slowed them down greatly, soft ground they would look ok, actually Sam was gimpy on soft ground too. Hank wasn't but he was being exercised then and was probably our only saving grace. They still have all of the above (except no lameness what so ever) BUT all IR symptoms are reducing slowly but surely. Sam has started to really look good, I believe him to be as IR as they get....more so than Hank as far as looks anyway. Hank seems more prone to full blown founder than Sam. Sam just seemed to stay sore and gimped around all summer, the laminitis walk was his mainstay. Not rocked back or anything just short strided and uncomfortable. The grass is still quite lush looking from all of our rain, but seemingly no ill effects! Hank is unbloated, he is still chubby but the bloaty look is gone. He's a good boy, and has lost most of his "idiot" tendencies. He's still Hank tho! I believe I could tighten their diet more and probably get rid of the IR look faster, but the slow method is working and I am too lazy to soak hay ect. They do get 1 carrot split between the 3 of them in their night serving of ration balancer . For treats OR bribery they get alfalfa pellets and they like them as well as anything sweet....maybe better! I have not been able to let my horses live "normally" since we left the west side of town and moved here to where clover is predominant. In my stupidity I used to overseed their pasture with clover. Why I couldn't put 2 and 2 together until now I don't know. For my horses I am convinced the clover has been the biggest problem ...alfalfa Hay isn't far behind. Why they can tolerate the alfalfa pellets I'm not sure, but a good guess would be they only get a handful at a time. Basically Dr.O. and his articles are right. Getting them to good weight and holding it there is the most important part along with exercise. I tried different turnouts day/night/none/some/ nothing worked! With the removal of the clover(and 200LBs. at least over the last couple years). The horses haven't been gaining weight on 24/7 pasture They aren't loosing any either! They move around a lot, and it isn't unusual to see them cantering around the hillside.. I would like to see them shed a few more pounds and I hope to do that over the winter. Right now since they aren't gaining The horses AND I are enjoying 24/7 turnout for the 1st time in YEARS! It is WONDERFUL!!! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 10:42 pm: UGGHHH Hubby decided we needed a machine shed (and we do) the bad part is one of my "experimental pastures got totaled in the process (glad I spent the $$ and time getting it the way I wanted it) never to be able to use it ANYWAY the horses have remained in the other "experimental pasture" and have been doing very well, we have had record rainfall this summer up until last week...the spigot turned off, it has been dry now for about 2 weeks AND warm. The pasture has dwindled down to short no doubt stressed grass. I figured the horses would be OK on it since the removal of clover and I don't quite buy into the stressed grass theory 100%. Well I am becoming a believer, The geldings IR symptoms are returning with a vengence. Their necks are up in the air and HARD again, Sams thigh and but lumps are back. DP's are staying quiet at the moment, but Sam is starting to "gimp" again and look miserable. SOOO to be on the safe side they are going to be drylotted for at least half the day and see what happens. I don't want Hank to start foundering again since I finally have his hooves in better shape.... not worth the risk...that 2 foot tall hard neck is telling me to get him off that short pasture! Nothing else has changed in their diet. The fat, but I don't believe IR mare is doing just fine and looks much better than the IR boys. We are working on getting the horses pasture re-vamped and reseeded, until then dry lot again....was so nice while it lasted!
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| Member: lilo |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Sep 14, 2009 - 9:12 am: Time to make that track Diane!I am in the same situation here; hot, dry and stressed pastures. Today they are on the biggest pasture, and there is not much there. Still following the pattern of morning grazing, and then off it all. So far, so good. Cringing at the thought of feeding just hay already in September though! Mid 80's here most of last week. Same today, and the over night lows have been what our daily highs normally are. Supposed to be in the 70s rest of the week, I sure hope so! Post holes, we have a slew of them from hubby taking the fence out so the guys could build the garage. He told ME to fill them in..oh ya..with the rock hard clay from where they dug the garage out! It will be the end of the week before they move dirt again, maybe then they will loosen it all up enough to stick a shovel in it!
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 4, 2009 - 9:04 am: Well I guess I can wrap this up for the year. It started raining again the pasture started growing, I had been leaving Flash and Hank on the pasture since gimping Sam was locked up. Hank is doing very well and is maybe loosing a little weight. His neck is still a little cresty, but soft, same with Sam.Since the pergolide has really helped Sam he is now out with the other 2. I am not leaving them out 24/7, they are on grass for about 10 hrs. then locked in the paddock area with grass hay. It is so muddy out I don't want to risk pulled tendons and ligaments again. Over all I think the experiment was a success, I still need to develop a learning curve for different times of the year and the state of the grass. I never thought that brownish, dead looking grass would affect them the way it did, more so then the healthy grass. I also noticed the clover is starting to make a reapperance One thing I know for sure, as far as my horses go that is a definite BIG trigger to problems. Hanks hooves have no rings this year which suggests to me he handled this experiment well. That will help in keeping his hooves in better form and hopefully not get sore from the hard ground this winter. He ALWAYS has rings on his hooves suggesting mild laminitis attacks. Sam on the other hand has many rings, I don't know if the CD is the culprit in that or letting him have grass OR both. Until the fall when he always gets gimpy regardless he did very well. It actually was one of his better summers. Time will tell on that one I guess. Since he has been back out he is moving well and looks good. I am monitoring him VERY VERY closely tho. Flash is doing very good also, I decided to remove her joint supplement to see if there would be much difference. With the turnout, rather than being locked in a dry pen she is doing GREAT. She is cantering with the boys up the hills, her bowed tendon looks just about normal, and she doesn't seem as "clicky" We are in a period where we are going to have the "fall flush" with frosty mornings. When that happens they are not going to be allowed as much until we have multiple frosts and freezes. I have seen this frosty weather bring on digital pulses and sore hooves, especially in Sam, but Hank too. It's not worth the risk.... one thing I have learned over the years
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 7:32 pm: My forever teaching me IR horses, most definitely brought home the hay differences. Very interesting indeed!Since hubby has been working dusk to dawn I have to feed the cows, too muddy out for round bales, so I had to go get a pick up load for them, it is from one of the suppliers I use for my horses, but didn't get any from him yet this year ( and don't think I will!) I left one bale on for PIA the orphaned calf, this hay LOOKS just like what I'm feeding the horses, maybe a little coarser, it is 1st crop. I gave PIA a half of leaf and left the other outside the gate by the horses hay. I threw the horses their night hay before giving them their "grain" they were eating peacefully at their leafs of hay. I decided to throw the calfs half of leaf over otherwise it would just blow away. Hank meandered slowly over to it, took a bite and boy did his eyes light up! I went in and got their "grain" which they love and they also get a third of a carrot each at night. Hank didn't want his "grain" and carrot the hay was BETTER! He finally came in and ate with the other 2 leaving a handful of the hay, Sam got done first and discovered the Delicious hay and was scarffing it down as fast as he could. Hank came galloping out of the lean-to and fought him for it Both the boys finished it off quickly and went leaf to leaf of their night hay thinking maybe I had put some more out. This hay had NO clover OR alfalfa. Obviously it was sweet as sugar tho to be chosen over "grain" and carrot! I guess testing hay for these IR types isn't a bad idea, tho my taste test works pretty well also! Tomorrows experiment is soaking this sweet hay and seeing if they still prefer it over their regular stuff, that will tell me if soaking is really good enough to remove the sugars, I have read that sometimes it isn't depending on the horse and hay of course. We have had multiple frost and a couple freezes, I have gotten brave and am letting the horse out all day for about a week now with no ill effects . Now working up to 24/7 bravery again...
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 10:58 am: Dare I do this? I have been really on the fence with this, since the calves have been removed from the picture I can use the back hill for the horses if I put up a temporary fence. It is still VERY green, I walked it the other day and it does have a little clover in it, that has pretty much died out since our freezes. I would just let them in there a couple hours a day, it would be great for movement, IF they move Would save a little on my hay bill, but definitely not worth having another founder! Here's a picture of it. I would consider the track idea like Angie except it is getting too late in the year and the deer move through there like crazy, I would end up fixing fence more than using the track...next spring I am going to try the track idea! What's circled in white is the pasture the horses are in now...the black lines represent where the could go if I opted for this. All went well and still is as far as hooves and founder...other than Sam's episode, which I believe was due more to his Cushings disease. 
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| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 8:56 am: Diane, have they been grazing at all this fall? If not, then I would start with only 30 minutes a day; I'd probably keep it 30 minutes too. You won't save much on hay, but the horses will love the change! I have been hand grazing mine a bit here and there, and man, it's hard to pull their heads up, lol!Your comment about the deer busting the fence, scared me. If the deer bust the inner fence my horses will have access to the main GREEN pasture! I never thought of that in my excitement to build my track. Normally they are confined to the dirt with 3 strands of Horse Guard Fencing. Dang it Diane, you got me killing the clover, looking at ration balancer, rethinking how to deal with the "horned ones."
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 9:53 am: Angie it takes a family to raise a fat, foundered, horned one! The family is doing well too.. no more fat, no more founder, and with any luck most of the horns are gone! and barefoot to boot! I should right a book. LIFE with Hank! They have been in their pasture 24/7...but it is pretty much bare, after some thought I think I will leave well enough alone . I have enough hay and it's paid for so I really don't have to worry about that. Hank staying sound barefoot is more important. I noticed a raised line in his hoof yesterday, which coincides with the start of his barefoot journey.
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 2:42 pm: Just a little update on this experiment, I am QUITE amazed how much better the EMS/IR boys are handling grazing this year. Since we got out of the "stressed grass" period Hank and Sam are handling grazing wonderfully. They have been able to graze twice as long with the evil clovers demise Every night I check their pulses just waiting for the KABOOM, and Hank to start his stiff legged walk and it hasn't happened. They are out about 5 hrs. tho this may not seem like much, it is a miracle here. 1-2 hrs. on the clover would send them "over the edge" into founder/laminitis land. Once this crazy weather straightens out I will be able to ride Hank more, I haven't been able to ride for a couple weeks between the gale force winds and the flash flooding rains. Once back in regular exercise I highly suspect all day turnout will be easily possible. With the removal of clover they don't seem so "possessed" with the grass. When I go out I throw out a couple leafs of VERY crappy grass hay and they run right up and start eating it. When in the clover filled pasture I had to chase them up and it wasn't easy to get them in. This is one thing I wish I would have done years ago. If any of you guys have rid your pastures of clover I would be very interested to know if it helped your horses or not too. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 11:45 pm: Dr.O. I don't know if you recall me going on about grass tetany in cows and the changes in their potassium levels, how it upsets electrolyte balances ect. How farmers feed extra Na mixed with special minerals in the spring to keep this away. I have not let this go in my mind because even tho they are different animals, it only makes some sort of sense that if it can effect cattle so violently it must have some sort of effect on horses. I am not trying to "beat a dead horse here" It just really interests me.Over the years you and the members have had to listen to all my problems with Hank and his founder, his tight muscles and thinking he was tying up or had EPSM, his behavioral problems, from being totally out of control to flicking his head at imaginary things and MUCH MUCH more. My other 2 horses also have had the same things in varying degrees, being retired their behavioral things not being so noticeable. Starting a few years back the mare started constantly flicking her head up and down, sometimes violently, and usually constantly, starting around grass time, which coincides with bugs, even tho I didn't see any they all wear long nosed masks with ears, but she still did this, Hank also, especially when ridden... in a riding mask so no bugs. I thought maybe they had that head shaking synDrOme thing. Funny how it goes away with the grass in the winter tho. Hank has turned into a very nice NON head shaking horse, Flash hasn't started her head shaking, yet anyway and she is WAY overdue. There are no signs of laminitis in either of the metabolic boys with 5 hrs. turnout on spring, lush grass. ( I do still watch it)!! but this is a remarkable feat... for them anyway. They have been in lower BCS than they are now and have foundered in the spring, heck Hank and Sam had ribs showing the last time they foundered in the spring. If you recall, I don't know how you could he has foundered so many times, but I did mention it in one of these experiment threads how the dry lot kept him in a constant state of low grade laminitis that I couldn't bring him out of for a whole summer because of the short, VERY short grass/clover in the dry lot even tho he went down to a 4 bcs... didn't realize that was doing it, seemed almost impossible that he was getting anything. Anyway onto my observations. I still give my horses a product called harvest salt. They hardly touched it all winter. I didn't have to fill their little mineral trays once this winter the salt just sat in it. They do have a salt and mineral block available too. I had actually completely forgot about it until I noticed the salt block was disappearing FAST, I could see they were trying to bite chunks out of it...this honestly happened with the appearance of grass and their grazing early this spring before I started limiting their grazing. It took about 2 weeks and that salt block was broke to pieces and chewed up, now hubby and I don't discuss to each other salt consumption of the cows (which he takes care of) and the horses (of which I take care of). I just happened to notice one day he came home from the feed store with about 10 bags of loose salt and mineral, complaining about how much the cows were going through and he was going broke keeping them in it HMMM I said the horses are tearing through their salt block (not touching the mineral block) and I needed to get a new one. I started filling their mineral feeders with Harvest salt again... they had finished that all off too! They were going through that loose salt like crazy too. this is the ingredients in it. GUARANTEED ANALYSIS Salt, min. 93.00% Salt, max. 96.00% Manganese, min. 4,000 ppm Copper, min. 2,500 ppm Zinc, min. 5,000 ppm Cobalt, min. 150 ppm Iodine, min. 40 ppm Selenium, min. 40 ppm It is empty again as I type, we are low in selenium here, so that is not a big concern, but the way they are going through it I try to pace them a little. I know you have said there is NO connection between Grass tetany and laminitis, I understand that...really I do. I do think that the high potassium in spring/stressed grass does indeed play a part in spring grass founder, a long with other factors of course.. but I think this May be a biggy along with the clover starch in my case anyway. If you have made it through this book (and I did keep it short, I have way more observations)!) I could go on and on about this Anyway I was researching something and came across this, along with many other things connecting the high K to laminitis and many other oddities. This article nailed my horses problems ( that seem to have disappeared for now anyway) Granted it is from NZ and it would seem they are selling products, but took me awhile to see that so they aren't "pushing" them. I was wondering if you would have access to the reference mentioned and it's contents (Reference: 'Nitrate Toxicity and Sodium Deficiency Associated with Hypomagnesemia, Hypocalcemia and the Grass Tetany SynDrOme in Herbivores'. T.W. Swerczek, DVM, PhD.) The article if anyone is interested https://www.calmhealthyhorses.co.nz/laminitis.php#laminitis1 there are many more...very interesting too (this one mentions the don't short the salt article I posted way back when I started these experiments. https://greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.php?page=grass_tetany___hyperkalemia_in_hor ses Thanks |
| Member: scooter |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 1:03 pm: Actually Angie, these articles seem to express that extra MG. is not the solution, extra NA is what keeps the electrolytes in order. It is very interesting anyway, and since I removed the clover I got rid of 2 problems at once extra starch, and extra nitrates.
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| Member: lilo |
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| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 7:35 pm: OHHHH, I( think) I understand what you are saying now. IF a horse was affected with grass tetany he would have a short stilted gait resembling founder??If that is the case this makes more sense than I thought... (but I won't write another book ) One more question if I may, did this article makes sense to you 'Nitrate Toxicity and Sodium Deficiency Associated with Hypomagnesemia, Hypocalcemia and the Grass Tetany SynDrOme in Herbivores'. T.W. Swerczek, DVM, PhD.) Grass tetany synDrOme..HMMM Thanks |
| Moderator: DrO |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2010 - 4:13 pm: Our first spring without clover has proven to be awesome. Hank and Sam are out 24/7 for the most part...unless it gets very muddy. They are holding up very well, while fatter than I like, Hank hasn't had a digital pulse or "the stiff walk" all spring.He did go through a bout of hard ground soreness for a week or two, but turned out that was from his water logged hooves, never had heat or DP's in hooves. I split the pasture in 3 sections and rotate them around so the grass doesn't get TOO short. The clover is making a reappearance, but not much, I suspect I will be spraying it again next year before it really gets going again. I did fertilize the pastures (that took much debate in my mind) but I wanted to keep the grass healthy and the clover GONE, seems no ill effects came from it excepts the grass is a little thicker, which was the point of it. I DID keep them off grass when it started coming in and after I had fertilized it, Hank did start getting DP's and heat in March/early Apr. until removed. I have since slowly worked them up to the 24/7 and it is going well. In his ridden work he has turned into an angel with a Halo, rather than a horned one. This is only my opinion, but I think something in that clover (probably the high levels of sugar/starch) kept him high as a kite. He is a good boy now and I can take him anywhere and trust him..completely different animal and I LIKE this one MUCH MUCH better
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| Member: lilo |
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| Member: vickiann |
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| Member: paul303 |
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| Member: rtrotter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2010 - 7:47 am: Lee I use a 4 wheeler sprayer, it holds 25 gallons and is a HAND sprayer, really wasn't too bad to do since my pastures are fairly small, but they also have booms for the sprayers, think that may be my next purchase I did find out why I had such a hard time killing the white clover, 2-4d AMINE is SAFE for white and lespedeza clover!. Once I switched to the 2-4d LV it died or maybe it was the weed-b-gone max... was hard to kill tho. I am going to try Banvel next time, I sprayed a different pasture this spring with the 2-4d LV and it did ok, but not great. This stuff is suppose to kill clover Dicamba (Banvel®, Clarity®) Broad-leaf herbicide Highly effective pasture herbicide Will also kill clover Can be used as a spot spray in problem areas or general application |
| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2010 - 12:07 pm: Middle of summer and Hank hasn't foundered. I think I have finally broke the very frustrating circle of founder/lameness/ can't be ridden/ summer fun. I know clover is good feed for "normal horses" but getting rid of it for my 2 IR horses has proven to be a miracle. While Mr. Hank is fat, it is a different fat that that when he was eating mostly clover. The bloat is gone, his cresty neck will probably never completely go away, but it stays soft and doesn't grow rock hard in a matter of hours, he does get mild DP's occasionally and while they probably don't mean anything I am still rather paranoid (old habits die hard) If he gets Dp's I put him up for a day or 2 until they are gone, lameness or stilty walk does not accompany these Dp's... but I live by the adage of better safe then sorry when it comes to founder with this boy. I've only had to put him in the dry lot a few times this year and only for a couple days, probably wasn't necessary but who knows. Interesting enough whenever he had raised DP's it followed extremely rainy weather? maybe it put the grass in overdrive. The boys aren't peeing every five minutes anymore, no more DrOoling, no more bloat, 24/7 turnout for the most part, no more "attitudes" Need I say this has turned out better than I could have ever imagined for 2 VERY IR horses. Thanks for listening to me put this together in my head and helping me brainstorm. Thank You Dr.O. for letting me put my "theories" out here regarding my fat, forever foundering, IR boys. 
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| Member: lilo |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2010 - 3:34 pm: Amen Lilo. Just got to get that mare straightened out!!
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2010 - 10:26 pm: Yea there is nothing little about that horse, actually he was in ok weight until Bonesy came and I had to start feeding more, just so Bonesy would get some... I don't have stalls, easy keepers and hard keepers are not a good mix in the same bunch. It is slowly coming off again, I try to keep him exercised as much as possible.
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| Member: cheryl |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 11, 2010 - 10:59 am: Cheryl that's good to hear, I think Hank and Fox were very similar in their Chronic founders. It is so nice not to have any laminitis this year and not to have to micro manage their diets so closely. Because of the wet weather the clover has gone nuts this year, there is a lot in the hayfields, the hay I got has more clover in it than I prefer, but I think they can handle a little, just not eat it at will in a pasture loaded with it. They even bring their heads up when grazing, with the clover pastures they didn't.I still have my fingers crossed too Cheryl as this seems to good to be true . I hope Fox continues to do well Thanks for letting me know, it helps to know I am not completely nuts Yet anyway. I hope you didn't jinx Fox
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| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 11, 2010 - 11:12 am: Me too I think if she founders again I will shoot myself instead of shooting the horse Seriously - I really appreciate all the effort you go to - to chronical your horse problems. They are pretty much universal problems and it really helps to have the information laid out. Good Job ! ! !
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 11, 2010 - 1:24 pm: Angie if you go back in this thread you can see I sprayed the clover in July last year, while from what I have read it is more optimal to do it in the spring while it is in early growth. I sprayed some spots early this spring and did seem to get a faster kill...BUT it seemed to come back too. The pastures I sprayed last July (3 times) have remained clover free, with one sprouting here and there.I have had MUCH better luck with the 24d-LV(mixed a little strong) over the aminine(sp). I fertilized very early this spring and planted grass seed before the horses were grazing much and I plan on killing the clover that has grown this year mid fall and fertilize again. My pastures have been holding up well, I was kind of worried with getting rid of the clover I would have major bare spots and erosion on the hills but the grass has filled in nicely and is holding up much better than I thought it would. The horses don't graze it as short with the clover gone and I suppose the fertilizer helped too. My horse pasture is small, maybe 2 acres and it is holding 3 horses very well right now. They do get a leaf of hay AM and PM...more if they are locked in due to weather. Here is pics of my pasture last year and this was after I sprayed it once!!!! As you can see from the 2nd pic, the pasture was about 80% clover   This year  
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: paul303 |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: frances |
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| Member: ajudson1 |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2010 - 5:08 pm: My horses aren't as fat either and that's grazing pretty much 24/7 (they're far from thin! but hold a BCS of around 6 to 7). When they were on clover for 3-4 hours they were much fatter(BCS of 9+!!!). That stuff must be VERY fattening.. It has been the best thing I have done for my easy keepers since I started horse keeping.
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| Member: kpaint |
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| Member: scooter |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 13, 2010 - 9:30 pm: I forgot Flash is sweating this year still and quite normally! She has had anhiDrOsis for as long as I can remember, I think around 8 years. How weird is that
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| Member: kpaint |
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| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 1:43 pm: A full cloverless year and no laminitis for Hank. Hanks neck stayed pretty good all year, I don't know if it will ever completely go away, but quite a remarkable difference. He grazed most of the summer, there were times he did have to spend in the dry lot when it was very wet and lush, he can't handle that grass either. The clover always persisted through out the whole summer tho and kept the pastures just as green as could be, with it's demise Sam and Hank can graze way more, they live pretty normal horse lifes and that was my goal more than anything, dry lotting all the time just didn't seem natural to me or for them. Collage of Hanks neck from when I started my experiment last year and this years neck...it never got bigger than this and maybe with some luck I can get it even smaller. The 1st pic is from just recently the second pic early last year. 
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| Member: lilo |
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