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  Discussion on New donkey- insulin resistant, cushing’s disease, diet and treats? Overwhelmed- help!
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Member:
dsmith6

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 9:06 am:

We got a new donkey last Saturday as a companion for my horse. He is 7yo, very slim, fit, no fat and very well behaved. If you read my previous posts, we have been thru h--- and back with losing our 1st donkey, but for my horse’s sake, got another buddy. We have since learned a lot about donkeys and their diets. My farrier told me that donkeys should not eat apples, carrots, grain or really anything except hay and pasture. Pasture and/or grass can only be consumed between the hours after noon and before dark due to the sugar content. From what I was told, the sugar content of the grass is at its lowest during this time.

I contacted skodes horse treats and and witcheyladycreations.com in hopes of finding treats my donkey can have. Witchey lady resonded saying no treats at all, but if you must, give prunes, timothy hay cubes, celery, lettuce or sugar free candy (in moderation). I’m waiting to hear from Skodes and may place an order based on their response. Does anyone know of SAFE, low sugar, low carb treats to give donkeys or an animal that has cushing’s disease or insulin-resistent? Any advice on this would be extremely appreciated! We just want to keep our donkey, healthy and happy to the best of our ability.
Member:
martina

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 1:02 pm:

Hi! We have 3 mini donkeys who are out on grass pasture from about 8AM until 1PM. We never put them out on the grass without hay (which they will always eat FIRST, before the grass, and we have never had a problem (knock wood). Other than grass and hay, they each get 1 peppermint LifeSaver (not sugar free) each evening as a treat. I like the idea of using timothy hay cubes, but be sure to break it into small pieces if you're feeding dry. Other than Skodes, I don't know of any other low sugar/low carb treats. Even if there were more choices, though, it is safer (and better for the donkeys) not to get them used to treats. I use lots of hugs and grooming as a reward, as they seem to love it.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 3:06 pm:

dsmith6, congratulations on the new herd member. I find the itchy spots on each of my horses and foals--they all have a favorite and you'll find each by trial and error. I've found that to be almost as appreciated as a treat. I've had some that would do remarkable things for a scratch. Much better and safer than treats.
As to the grass times, there is more recent research that is very different from what your farrier told you. I remember hearing that same advice years ago, but science has really defined the times when the sugar content is highest. Go to https://www.safergrass.org/ and you will find the safest times for your donkey to graze.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 5:07 pm:

Hello DSmith6,
Too much is made of the "timing for the nonstructural carbohydrates" with the possible exception of horses with a confirmed history of spring grass founder. More important is maintaining proper condition, which for a burro ought to be a lower 5. Do this and you can treat then however you please...as long as the condition does not go over a 5. I do think the timothy grass cubes best, they can have more without weight gain.
DrO
Member:
dsmith6

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 5:25 pm:

saftergrass.org just totally threw me for a loop! Now I'm reluctant to let my donkey out with my horse in the evening. How do you "maintain a proper condition" in a burro? I'm assuming exercise and nutrition management. I'm in the process of switching him to a handful of Blue Seal Carb-guard from the high calorie Triple Crown his previous owner had him on. Just to appease him while my horse gets his grain. Maybe I can use less of the C.G and more timothy hay cubes? So if I keep him fit- I shouldn't have to worry about his health Dr. O? How can I keep him slim trim and beautiful? I've got to set up some sort of nutrition management and exercise program for him- and just don't know where to start. He can be ridden and drive a cart so I plan on exercising him. what do you other donkey owners do??? appreciate all the feedback and any advice!
Member:
dsmith6

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 5:26 pm:

Also- I'm considering getting my hay tested to see how much sugar is in the hay. Also want to determine if my donkey and horse needs specific supplements to make up for what they are not getting in their hay? Does anyone have any experience with hay analysis? If so, what do you do?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 6:46 pm:

I've also read on safergrass.org, and as a self taught barefoot trimmer who has also studied Pete Ramey's DVDs, let me add a few things I remember.

The lowest sugar content is from 3 a.m. to 10 a.m.
Many horses, and probably donkeys too, can handle grazing 24/7.

There is much more to be learned about the sugars in grasses, and why some equines are bothered by them and others are not.

Most of our hay & pasture was developed for cattle. To fatten them up!

horses are meant to MOVE and graze on more sparse grasses, not stand knee deep in clover.

I am currently using the concepts from Jamie Jackson's Paddock Paradise in my quest for slim, healthy horses with good hoofs.

What is your pasture like? How many acres?

My PERSONAL OPINION is with lots of movement, proper hoof care, the type of grass, and time of grazing, isn't an issue. Even with founder prone horses.

I've considered testing my hay also but haven't done so yet. The safer grass website should have links & directions on how to do that.

I think I read that there are so many factors regarding the sugar content of hays that it just don't seem like it'd be worthwhile to test for that. Analysis of nutrients maybe, but I don't know about the sugar.

I just try to feed the lesser green hay this time of the year with pasture, and save what I think looks better for winter time.

Right now, for what it's worth, I think a person can go crazy trying to remember when the sugar is high in the grass, or if the hay was baled at the right time,etc. There are just too many variables with temp, sun/cloudy, DrOught, etc.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 7:31 pm:

Danielle, Ann Firestone at saveyourassrescue.org could probably provide you with some excellent advice and resources. She has posted on Horseadvice in the past, but I don't know if she is currently a member. Congratulations on your new donkey. Pics please when you have time!

I think that the safegrass site has information about hay analysis.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Monday, Aug 31, 2009 - 9:22 pm:

There are two miniature jennies where my horse lives. They get very little hay and move around the enclosure quite a lot. Still they are fat Their owner feels "sorry" for them and won't cut the feed more than she already has. Anyway, both of them LOVE being groomed, and it is a treat that doesn't add calories.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 3:21 am:

Dsmith6,

I moved my yearling to a farm that has a burro and as part of my responsibilities, I feed the farm, including the burro in the morning.

The burro survives very well on about 8oz twice a day of Purina's equine Adult. This burro ( from her previous care) does have IR and cushings and the only thing that sets off an episode now, is when her owner "feels sorry for her" and puts her out on grass. She almost immediately gets the fat deposits and cresty neck and comes very close to foundering in all 4 feet. Once I told him about the sugar content in the grass and explained why she gets like this so quickly, he understood and has kept her off the grass and she is much better off for it.

I am not a firm believer in treats because I do not think horses or (burros) need them and it leads to other problems when used incorrectly.

Triple Crown has a forage solution that may solve your nutritional issues. I just started feeding it to my horses. Its called Triple Crown Safe Starch and its meant to be used by itself and contains all the necessary nutritional ingredients that a horse (or burro) might need. Its fed by percentage of animal weight and can be adjusted up or down based on body condition.

In my area I am faced with ever rising hay costs, inconsistent quality and different types of hay that I pay money for and then my horses either don't eat it or it doesn't agree with them.

This product so far seems consistent, my horses love it, my shavings bill has gone way down ( because I don't have to waste the bedding when I have to clean the hay out of the stall) and so far I have not seem any detrimental effects of using it.

Since the problem here is the possibility of your burro getting too much grass, can your burro handle a grazing muzzle?

Rachelle
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 4:48 am:

Hello All,
dsmith6 you ask, "So if I keep him fit- I shouldn't have to worry about his health Dr. O?". The answer is no you still have to worry about your burro's health. But if you keep him trim and fit you have a whole lot less to worry about.

Then you ask, "How can I keep him slim trim and beautiful?". You do this by feeding him appropriate feeds that are balanced with appropriate exercise. You judge your efforts by monitoring the burro's condition. This is is the whole thrust of the article Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses. The main difference between horses and asses is that asses tend to be more efficient with energy and protein and therefore do better on stemmier forages than most, but not all, horses.

Though safegrass.org has some valid points as you read the site it is hard to remember horses have lived off grasses for tens of thousands of years and it is the best food available for all equines. The site overstates and therefore misstates our understanding of the connection of equine glucose metabolism and founder. It also confuses folks over the issues of digestible sugars and non digestible sugars and their respective role in founder induction and our members comments above are good examples of this. For another point of view I recommend Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Forage (Spring and Fall Pasture) Associated Founder. In the meantime as you ride the country highways around your home note the number of perfectly healthy horses grazing cool season grasses around you. I find monitoring hay nutritional values a bit like chasing your tail: by the time you are about to grab it, it moves. And even if you do catch it, what are you going to do with it now that you have it. It does not change the basic premises of good feeding practices as outlined in our article I reference above. Of course suspected nutritional diseases thought to be brought about by deficiencies or toxicities in the forage need investigation. But by physically assessing your forages and maintaining a proper condition for your horse you are doing 99% of what is needed to keep him healthy.
DrO
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 5:22 am:

DrO,

I love your "chasing your tail" comment. Excellant summary there.

I am only 2 weeks into my inner perimeter "track" (Paddock Paradise) concept, but I do feel in my gut that it makes SO much sense: Movement, movement, and more movement!

Which will lead to proper body weight, and other positive health benefits.

Rachelle,

I am in the same boat here with poor quality hay, and rising costs. I may get some of it tested to verify it is from THIS year! You make a good point with feeding the low starch feed, I know I was told I could feed Safe Choice like that also.

Maybe in the future you could start a discussion after you've fed it awhile, and share how it's working out, if you still feed hay, how much, etc.?

Dsmith,

How about a picture of the donkey? I bet he's adorable!
Good luck with keeping him fit & healthy...I am sure he'll be just fine.
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 3:59 pm:

Danielle, I see you are posting on the Equine Cushings site and probably getting conflicting advice on the hay, aren't you? If you are worried about the hay being too rich, you can always soak it before feeding it to your donkey. They are pretty easy keepers from what I can see. My neighbor has three mini donkeys and they are not on pasture nearly as much, or as long as their horses. Toss in some human vitamins ala Dr. O's advice and you're probably going to do okay.

BTW, the neighbor's donkeys are thrilled to be scratched. No treats needed.

Angie, would you remind us of your Paddock Paradise track and how you did it? I vaguely remember it was a way of making strips around the field, no? I saw a pony nearby in an odd setup that sounds kind of like what you're talking about. I think a lot of us would be interested in a rerun of what you did.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 1, 2009 - 5:17 pm:

O.k., I'll start a thread on it. "Making Tracks..."
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