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  Discussion on Severe Founder in one Front Hoof
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Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 11:13 am:

We have been fighting abcesses and founder in the left front hoof of our 27 year old stallion for four years. This year, it has suddenly gotten worse. We tried the styrofoam pads recommended in the article from this groups, but his foot has gotten even worse. The styrofoam pad results in severe wetness that softened the soul in the first 24 hours of wearing the styrofoam pad. He has only 5 mm of soul at the apex of the frog and only 10 mm at the toe. On Friday, he could not even put his foot on the ground. The vet came out and found nothing to cause the lameness. Took X-rays. X-rays were not good enough for an interpretation., Came back Saturday. Took more X-rays. Found an abcess. Opened it. Put ichthamol on the abcess. Rewrapped with the styrofoam pad. Abcess drained, but hoof still too painful to walk on, even with styrofoam pad. Wraoping with elasticon instead of duct tape does not help as the elasticon is too stretchy and allows the pad to shift under the hoof when he walks. Does anyone have any other suggestions to help this poor horse? He has 17 degrees of rotation in this foot. Thanks, Arden
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 2:50 pm:

Arden what kind of styrofoam are you using? The construction grade styrofoam should not make the horses hoof wet. That said I know how you feel when Hank had an abscess and the thin soles adding anything that put pressure on his sole made him terribly painful.

So I used a diaper wrap, it worked very well at keeping him semi-comfortable and his hoof did not get soggy....

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/185158.html
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 2:50 pm:

One must wonder whether there is still a remaining pocket of infection in there.

Did you find no relief after the abscess was opened?
Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 8:20 pm:

There was some relief after the abscess was opened, but not much. Our vet ordered soft-ride boots with orthotic inserts for him. I was able to get one boot on his bad foot, but cannot get him to lift his good foot off the ground to put the other boot on. I had actually gone to the store and purchased the diapers. We were on our way home when I got a call from the vet telling us the boots had arrived and to come pick them up. Please check out these boots at www.soft-ride.com and let me know what you think. I am extremely worried about this guy. We have had him since he was born and would hate to lose him due to founder. I am deathly afraid that his coffin bone is going to come through his sole. If anyone has any ideas whatsoever, please let us know. My vet really seems at a loss as to what to do next.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 9:17 pm:

If one of your main concerns now is to get the other boot on to protect the good hoof, and keep him balanced, could you rig up some sort of sling? Or perhaps putting hay bales under him, if he is a good calm boy, perhaps he'd rest on them long enough to get the other boot on? I just went through some painful front hoofs with one of mine, not as serious what your guy has, and I know how hard it was to wrap the "other" hoof.

From what I've read, those are excellent boots for your situation. Did you get the gel inserts?

Founder/laminitis and rotation are very serious and you need a farrier who specializes in the treatment, who will work with your vet.

DrO will have advice and probably more questions: One I have is what caused the founder in one hoof only? The untreated abscess?

Probably a silly question, I've never dealt with abscesses. So I'll wish you the best in getting him treated and sound, and sign off.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 9:31 pm:

Hi Arden,

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties. I have been working hard for some time now with my 22 y. o. mare who has chronic founder.

When she had a very bad episode last winter, I also tried styrofoam and boots, although not the soft-rides. I was going to go to those next, but we found the best relief with just plain old deep bedding. I used a combination of pine pellets and pine shavings to give her the most comfort.

Do you know what is causing the founder? If you can remove the driving force behind the laminitis, and provide adequate pain relief while the hoof heals, hopefully the laminitis and abcesses will resolve over time with corrective trimming.

BTW, a friend of mine had excellent results with the soft ride boots. They appear to be a very good product. Does your horse lie down? Perhaps you could apply the second boot when he is recumbent.

Best wishes to you and your horse.
Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Thursday, Sep 10, 2009 - 11:46 pm:

We believe it was the abscess that caused the founder. This was four years ago and we had a very wet winter. The foot kept abscessing all winter. He foundered and has been lame ever since. We actually spent over $3000 that year, trying to "fix" this foot. He has limped, ever since, but not so severely that he couldn't be managed with bute. However, recently , the lameness was so bad that even 2 gms of bute, twice daily, would not relieve his pain. So, we thought that maybe the styrofoam pads would help. The very next morning, he would not even put his foot down on the ground. It seems he had another abscess, but it was not obvious at all and was not even located until the next day (so, 48 hours later).

The vet came out, this evening, and it took three of us to get the boot on his "good" front foot. We did get the purple soft gel inserts to replace the turquoise ones that come with the boots. This is what the manufacturer recommended to our vet.

Both the farrier and the vet were out yesterday to work on his foot. There is not enough wall to even put a set of shoes on him. That is why the vet decided on the soft-ride boots.

Beau does lay down at night, or at least he did three nights ago, as I saw him on the ground when I got up at 5:30 AM. He does not lay down during the day, at all. Consequently, his other three feet are starting to give him problems. We are hoping that having gotten the boot on both front feet, tonight, that he may get some small amount of relief by tomorrow.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 8:51 am:

Hello BlkMgk,
To help your horse you are going to need a accurate diagnosis of what is going on and there seems to be some question about this in your post.

Whether the horse is still suffering from the solar abscess is a particularly critical point. If the abscess is not drained completely, and the infected areas flushed, he will not get better until it is. This possibility must be aggressively pursued as correction can lead to a rapid turn around.

Unfortunately a horse with 17 degrees of rotation and a very thin sole almost always has recurrent problems where the pressure of the tip of the coffin bone lies on the sole. If this area continues to be painful because of the pressure on the tip of the coffin bone the area must be protected by using soft bedding and bandaging. I am not a particular fan of Styrofoam but some have had success with it. For our recommendations on treating the founder component see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview.

If the problem is abscessing do to solar pressure by the coffin joint derotation as described in the article associated with this discussion may be helpful at this time. However, if active founder is going on the foot may not be strong enough to derotate at this time.

By answering these questions correctly and pursing appropriate treatment will you have a chance to recover from this but the combination of age, degree of damage already present, and the complicating factors are likely to make this a hard row to hoe, for you and your horse.
DrO
Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 10:49 am:

There is definitely another abscess and it is draining. We are soaking the foot in Epson salts and betadine daily. Is there something else we should be doing?

"Unfortunately a horse with 17 degrees of rotation and a very thin sole almost always has recurrent problems where the pressure of the tip of the coffin bone lies on the sole. If this area continues to be painful because of the pressure on the tip of the coffin bone the area must be protected by using soft bedding and bandaging."

Do you think the soft-ride boots with soft gel inserts are sufficient as padding? He is stabled in an open paddock with very soft ground. We are reluctant to confine him to a stall, as he will stand in the same place all day in a stall, will not lay down, and will stock up and become lame on his back legs.

We do not believe there is much in the way of active founder, in that he has had the same degree of rotation for years, unless the new abscess is causing more rotation that is, as yet, not able to be seen on the new x-rays.


Arden
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 12:31 pm:

BlkMgc,

Here is a suggestion for you that might work. A friend of mine has a broodmare that has a similar problem in one front foot. According to the mares xrays, the exact point of the coffin bone was identified and a hole was cut out of the boot to relieve the pressure at that exact point. In effect, the rest of the foot was supported by the boot, but no direct pressure was put on the tip of the coffin bone. The mare without this boot is an absolute cripple, but with the boot has been able to raise several foals.

Of course, the underlying cause of the abcesses should be taken care of, but while this is being done, you could possibly give your horse some relief. I also think that if this works with your horse, you might find it easier to get the other boot on because he will be much more willing to put weight on the bad foot.

In some cases, any type of padding even very soft puts pressure on the spot that hurts, so not having anything touching this area, should help resolve at least some of the pain issue. The soft-ride boots look like they can be modified, so you would be able to put a hole in them where you need it.

I wish you good luck.
Rachelle
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 12:45 pm:

If you are concerned about stocking up due to stall rest, you can always wrap the other legs. Stocking up is the lesser of 2 evils (at least IMO) vs the foundered foot. In fact, it may not be a bad idea to support the other legs anyway, since your horse does not want to weight the bad leg.
Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 1:17 pm:

Maybe stocking up was the wrong word to use. In addition to the swelling in his legs, his right rear leg actually goes out from under him and he cannot walk at all, after being stalled for more than a day. Because he will not lay down in a stall, he ends up putting so much weight on his rear legs, to relieve the front foot, that his back feet become painful, also,
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 8:18 pm:

If there has not been improvement in the 48 hours following opening it always suggest to me that it is not draining properly, for more see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels where we cover treatment of refractory abscesses.

Without examining the horse I cannot know if the padded boots are necessary or if they would be helpful. If there are areas of the foot that need pressure protection and the boots can offer that protection then I guess they would be helpful but I don't know if either of these conditions exist.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 9:17 pm:

FME rotation and thin soles usually make for a sore horse with any kind of firm pressure on the sole. The styrofoam works well for an acute case of founder, which doesn't sound like that is the case.

My horse was very comfortable in Old Macs with the comfort pad, so the soft rides should help him, if the abscesses are resolved. Once he was able to be shod routing out the rim of the shoe(wide web to protect the sole) and we added a light layer of equi pak he was good to go.

What makes me wonder is why is your horse getting so many abscesses? As Dr.O. suggested maybe working on de-rotation once he is stable may help keep him from abscessing so much. Does he have a long toe and stretched WL?

Can you post pics of his hoof?

I really feel for you founder and thin soles is a battle I have been fighting for YEARS. Luckily I have only had 2 abscesses along the way, which were right after his founder.

I have soooo many posts in here about our long battle, but I think we have finally started to win! The folks on here, Dr.O. and his outstanding articles are a good place to start. Don't give up hope and educate yourself the best you can. It can only help your horse

Good luck
Member:
blkmgc

Posted on Friday, Sep 11, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

In the past, when this horse has had abscesses, they were commonly in the sole, closer to the toe. These abscesses would always drain well. This current abscess is located at the rear corner near the bars, right in front of the heel. (almost where the frog meets the white line. The vet opened the abscess to the point where it bled (bright red blood, not black). Over the next day or so, there was a yellow serum looking fluid draining. Then a smelly reddish brown. Now, it seems to me the hole has sealed up with granulation tissue. I have been soaking the foot, daily, in Epsom salts, with betadine, but the horse is still extremely lame, even with the soft-ride boots. He has worn the boots, now, for 24 hours. This morning, he would put a little bit of weight on the foot, but this evening, he will not even touch it down to the ground. I am truly at my wits end and feel so badly for this horse. I know he ia in a lot of pain, even with bute, being given twice daily.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 8:16 am:

Arden, since you say it looks like he has proud flesh there I wonder if it is prolapsing?

From Dr.O.'s abscess article

"Once pared and cleaned the sole defect should be packed with betadine soaked cotton. The packing should be firm but and come up level with the sole to protect the exposed sensitive corium"

Anything I have read about that says it can be extremely painful. Have you had recent x-rays?

Sorry just saw in your first post that you did just have xrays
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 8:38 am:

DrO,

Would an oral antibiotic be helpful in this case?

Arden,

I like Rachelle's idea of making a hole in the boot to get pressure off the end of the coffin bone.

The horse must be made as comfortable as possible to encourage at least some movement to help the abscess drain, and the circulation in the hoof.

I would like to see pictures too, pictures of the x-rays would be helpful if you can post them also. I am not an expert; I am just a self taught trimmer who has read a lot, seen tons of pictures of founder, etc. Maybe pictures would help someone see something else to do to help.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 9:23 am:

BlkMgc, If this is a abscess and neither has the purulence drained or the horse improved then the abscess remains.

In general Angie antibiotics are not helpful with solar abscess for more on this see the article on Sole Abscesses.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Sep 12, 2009 - 1:00 pm:

Dr.O. how can one differentiate between the pain of founder and an abscess? When Hank had a gravel pop and an abscess blow out his heel at the same time a couple years ago he remained painful for quite some time. It never drained anymore after the vet pared it away. Once it cornified he was better, but it seems that took quite awhile.

IF Ardens horse has a gravel is there anything that can be done for it until it pops? The few gravels I have had made my horses look like they broke their legs, the vet couldn't get it all pared away because the sole was undermined so much.

Arden is your horses hoof hot? Any bulging at the coronary band or swelling in the pastern/fetlock area?

When Hank had that gravel I used the diaper wrap and put icthamol on his coronary band, when it finally popped he was much more comfortable, but it took awhile until he was sound (part of that was poor trimming)

IF he has an abscess still brewing the pressure of the pad from the soft rides could make him VERY uncomfortable. I found the Davis Barrier boot to work much better.....no sole pressure, yet protected the hoof. I put a lil swimmers on first with meds so his hoof wouldn't get wet. I never really found soaking to help my horses with abscesses... A sugardine paste seemed to help better plus kept the hoof from turning to mush. It seemed to draw the heat and infection out.

As Dr.O. said tho you really need to figure out what is going on for sure, I'm just giving MY experience with abscesses and what helped.

Hope your boy is feeling better today.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 14, 2009 - 7:20 pm:

In horses with a history of chronic founder it can be difficult to figure out where the abscess ends and the founder begins. But usually the unilateral nature and degree of lameness separate the two.

The reason a horse remains very lame with an abscess is it has not been completely drained and so it was with your horse Diane. Yes if large amounts of sole are exposed these areas will be sensitive and need some protection but the lameness from exposed sole, and I have exposed as much as 2/3rds of the corium of the sole in a horse that had been lame for months with recurring abscesses, is nothing compared to the lameness of infected corium. The good thing about horn is that it heals from the inside out not side to side so no matter how much is exposed, it is lightly covered in 12 days or less and has good cover in 20 to 30 days. For these reasons my credo in treating abscesses is "when in doubt, cut it out". Time after time for years using this rule I get horses much more comfortable in a day or two and on their way to soundness.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 15, 2009 - 6:56 am:

Dr.O. as I am always trying to learn more about hooves and there pathologies, Ardens horse has only foundered in one hoof, the one that is abscessing.

She stated that just this hoof is foundered with 17 degrees rotation and thin soles. If the abscesses were drained, wouldn't the above pathologies still make him sore? Would you pare away sole on a horse with such rotation and thin soles?

I realize that abscesses make a horse VERY painful, but so does an acute founder, especially in a horse that already has 17 degrees rotation with thin soles. If he was foundering again, it wouldn't necessarily show up on x-rays just yet would it?

Just trying to learn how you would differentiate the 2 since only one hoof seems to be involved.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 16, 2009 - 8:03 am:

Diane, if you don't pare away the abscessed areas to the point that they drain well you run the risk of continued infection further undermining horn, the unilateral founder does not change this fact which should be foremost in your mind whether foundered unilaterally, bilaterally, or not foundered at all.

The article on abscesses and the article on founder describes historical and physical findings in each disease. In short, using those guidelines, I would start paring in such a situation when the exam and history makes me think there is a good chance of subsolar infection. I would stop paring when I thought there was no longer a good chance of infection present. As to the particular historical and physical findings, they may be very different case to case. For instance above it sounds like the horse graveled when she states a second abscess started draining. This makes for a high probability that there was continued infection following the initial paring and that subsolar and now deep to the wall there is continued infection.
DrO
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