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Discussion on Is it time for pergolide?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 17, 2009 - 1:18 pm:
Dr.O. my arab gelding Sam has had almost all of the classic symptoms of cushings for the last 7ish years. He does not shed out and his hair grows back quickly, he urinates way more than normal, he seems mildly depressed in the spring/fall and I would say from the looks of his hooves this year he has been having mild laminitis quite often (many rings) and gimps around. This fall he seems worse han usual, I have taken them off grass since their necks "blew up" he doesn't have DP's or heat in his hooves but he does look foot sore and miserable. His appetite is good (too good) he hasn't lost any weight. I tried giving him some bute, but that doesn't seem to make him feel better.
The vet has said I could manage him with diet and close observation, clipping, and we have done pretty well these last 7 years. This fall just seems different, he doesn't seem himself at all.
I called the vet this morning and he said it was probably time to try the pergolide, he gets his from a compounding pharmacy. The only thing I wonder about is he said he would start him out at 2 MG's, I would rather try 1mg and go from there.
Would that make more sense? He said I can do what I want...because he knows I will anyway
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 17, 2009 - 10:10 pm:
Diane,
Without any good reason not to, I would recommend you follow the recommendations for indications or use and dosages in the article. I do.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 17, 2009 - 11:00 pm:
Dr.O. I have been trying to put this off as long as it has been feasible. He has done VERY well the last couple years, but I have noticed spring and fall are getting worse for him every year.
I think I am going to try it on him, as much as I don't want to.
I have a couple questions
I have read that geldings with cushings can have much more secretions in their sheaths, could this problem I have been having with Sam's "tumors" be related to Cushings if indeed it is exfoliating skin? It has gotten really bad again and the vet just cleaned him about a month ago.
I have also read that some people just give pergolide in the spring/fall with success....what are your thoughts on that?
According to your article suggested starting rates is .75 mg's for a 1000# horse. Sam weighs about 750-775#'s is dosage based on weight or symptoms? I believe I will start him at that suggested dosage and up it if needed.
Thanks for any answers you can give me, for some reason starting him on pergolide bothers me, but I think it is time, he seems to be slowly falling apart...Thanks
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Friday, Sep 18, 2009 - 12:53 pm:
Hi Diane, sorry to hear Sam is doing worse. My oldest boy, Paint, has become more and more clearly Cushingoid during the 3 years I've owned him. Posting here last year convinced me not to do Pergolide yet, but this summer he developed a hoof abcess that required the vet.
I had already noticed that he was drinking huge quantities of water, eating salt all the time, and peeing huge lakes. Being a med tech, I had planned to take a urine specimen to work and test it for glucose, although he doesn't have the hard crest, fat deposits, etc. that I could see, and his condition is good.
Anyhow, the vet drew some blood and I also got a urine specimen. His blood glucose was 250 mg/dl and his urine glucose was 500 mg/dl! The vet at first recommended putting him on 2 mg of Pergolide (he weighs around 1000 lbs). I happened to still have a month's supply of 1 mg Pergolide that this site persuaded me not to use last year, and when I asked the vet about using that and also why he was thinking of starting at such a high dose, he said that it was due to how high his glucose levels were. However, he told me to go ahead and just try the 1 mg.
After a month on 1 mg, Paint's urine glucose was zero, and the vet decided to leave him at that dose for now.
My personal opinion is that possibly Paint's glucose was additionally elevated by his infection...at least, I know in humans, infections can increase insulin resistance and elevate serum glucose. I think that unless the vet has a really good reason to start Sam at such a high dose, you are correct to want to start him at the lower dose. After all, all drugs have negative side effects as well as good effects.
Good luck with Sam. Let us know how it goes.
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 18, 2009 - 4:00 pm:
Thanks Kathy, Is Paint still on pergolide? Did his "symptoms" (urinating alot) Sam also licks the salt block more than normal too. resolve? I just picked Sams up at the vet and am going to start him on .75 mg's tomorrow and see how that works.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, Sep 18, 2009 - 8:31 pm:
Hi Diane.....hope you don't mind if I chime in here...after having had a horse on Pergolide for 6 years.
Banner is the horse I lost a year ago to a torn aorta...a situation related to her age of 33 and nothing to do with her Cushing's. She was diagnosed with Cushing's when she was 27ish and based on her blood work, she was dosed at 1 mg. with chromium added at the pharmacy in Kentucky. To help keep the cost down, her meds came straight from there.
My experience with Pergolide was all good. She perked up after about a month and as time went on, she had no more problems with abscesses or inflammatory reactions to her spring shots. Although some take them off of the drugs from time to time, I never did and in the 6 years she was on it, I never had a problem with it.
Towards what turned out to be her last summer, I did notice that she needed help shedding out...but heck, at 33 I was expecting that. She did lick her salt and pee a bit more but all in all, I felt she did well on Pergolide and wouldn't hesitate if I needed it for another when the time came.
I know it comes in higher doses and I did read somewhere that some horses can hallucinate from it however, when I questioned the hallucinations, I was told that that is usually only seen in the higher tier doses. Fortunately, I never saw any signs of hallucinations but jeeze Louise, can you imagine what a hallucinating horse looks like? Noooooo thanks.
Hope the info helps you make a decision. I had her on it for 6 years and am glad I did it to help her have a happy retirement.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 18, 2009 - 10:39 pm:
I guess I need to learn about pergolide now
Vet got me a liquid suspension 50ml if my math is correct that should last 2mos. and 6 days at .75ml a day. I just read the article AGAIN and it states that liquid pergolide seems to loose it's effect after 35 days and that's if it is kept in optimal conditions...sigh. He got it from Wedegewood pharmacies and it seemed rather expensive to me with shipping I believe it came to $113.00 which is $1.71 a day. He said he would write me a script if I found it cheaper, I know I have seen mention of different places in here that people are getting it, and if I recall much cheaper!
Sam seems like he may have an abscess brewing in his Rt. hind and is just looking miserable lately. I hope it works for him and with any luck cures that problem with his exfoliating skin or "tumors" on his penis in the process! When I was looking around the web at cushings sights there was a picture of a horse with the same sort of "tumors" as Sams and the pergolide did help that too.
Thanks for your success stories at first I was hesitant to do this, but feel better about it now
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 12:43 am:
Diane, check out the prices here:
https://toddspharmacy.com/
This is where I get my Pergolide capsules. They have very good pricing. The caps are readily eaten by a picky eater and have better stability than the suspension.
Erika
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 1:32 am:
Diane: I just switched to Wedgewood because the cost was more reasonable. My 30 yr old mare is on 2mg daily. I was paying:
Vetinary Pharmacies of America: 60 2mg chews
$126.40
I switched to:
Wedgewood Pharmacy: 100scoops @ 2mg/level scoop
$95.00
It is a powdered pergolide and I really like it. I mix it with some applesauce and syringe it into her mouth. I've found, with my mare, that she'll find a way to avoid ANY medication, so I mix everything she ever needs to take with applesauce and syringe it.
Do you think, perhaps, that the liquid is more expensive? I think that I would be a bit concerned that Sam might not get all the medication ( unless you're syringing it instead of spreading it over his feed ).
My mare has been on it for four years now. Before she started it, we were considering putting her down. She did nothing but drink and urinate all day, and when she wasn't doing that, she was lying down. Her coat was a mess, she'd lost all the muscle on her topline, she had no appetite, and she was miserable. Then her feet got hot.
I had been resisting the idea of Cushings, but the hot feet lit a stick of dynamite under me. We got a diagnosis and started her on .5mg. We got a minor - but decent improvement quite quickly, and began to check her ACTH with spring and fall shots. Her numbers were higher than normal that first check. She was upped to 1mg. There we saw REAL improvement. Her symptoms pretty much disappeared, there seemed to be much less general malaise and pain, and she moved around constantly. Her eyes were bright and her ears alert - for the first time in years.
When she began to get lethargic and depressed and started to leave her feed, we tested again and raised her to 1.5 and, finally to 2mg where she has remained for about 2 years now.
I have found the difference in her to be so marked, that I'm ashamed that I resisted having her tested earlier. It wasn't until her feet were involved that I got serious. She actually felt so much better that she bowed a tendon at 28, from leaping around on her own doing rollbacks and slidestops on frozen ground. The only trace of Cushings in evidence is some extra hair - but not that much.
I wouldn't look at pergolide with dread, I would look at it with wonder, and be prepared to up the dose as necessary ( you can always decrease it ). A couple of years ago, I started riding her again ( bareback - she also has stifle problems and navicular )and a few times a week we explore the woods for about 30 to 40 minutes.
I forget how old Sam is, but it's really about making them comfortable and happy. Don't be afraid of using pergolide
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 7:16 am:
Thanks, I wonder if the suspension does cost more? the vet said he likes it better because he has seen horses leave the powder at the bottom of the feed bowl, I wet Sams "feed" so that wouldn't be possible, but I don't know if he would eat his "feed" either. The cost of the pergolide itself was $88 the rest was shipping. He had it over nighted, since it shouldn't be sitting around. I'm going to check into the granules next time.
Have you guys used the suspension beyond the 35 day suggestion? At that price I sure would hate to not use it!!!! I did see in my searches that there is a place that makes a suspension that lasts 3 mos. but is pricier then wedgewood.
https://www.islandpharmacy.com/site/1420401/PAGE/768342
Sam is around 24yo. and very IR Too, I don't know if pergolide will help him with that too. Of course I am going to remain vigilant with his diet.
I will check out Todd's too...thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 7:32 am:
BTW Lee I see you tested your mare in the spring and fall. I have read that you shouldn't test them then because the ACTH rises naturally at those times and can get a false reading? That's why I didn't test Sam since fall has arrived. His "symptoms" are quite classic tho and have been for years, very manageable until this fall it seems, so I don't think I need to test him???
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 8:25 am:
Diane - I used Todd's Pharmacy also - the prices were better than and if I'm not mistaken - they paid for the postage. Really nice people to work with.
Cheryl K
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 9:09 am:
The nature of the sheath secretions are often somewhat "gooier" with more odor in a Cushings Horse just as the skin may be somewhat "oilier". From what I have seen, if that is exfoliated skin you don't have a problem as it is normal for it to "appear" to come back quickly following a cleaning so this would be normal. Once reestablished it appears to quit but really the rate of loss is close to the rate of formation so it appears to be forming less exfoliated skin.
It is very difficult for me to comment on other peoples practices without having seen their horses, Diane. It has become common practice to begin pergolide treatment based solely on rather mild clinical signs and the results of lab testing. Not infrequently I wean a new horse in the practice off pergolide because of this practice. None of these horses develop any problems when removed and I don't remember having to place one of these horses back on pergolide.
Though we know their is a seasonality to the lab findings, prior to the discovery of pergolide use in horses I did not notice a seasonality to serious signs of Cushings. In horses that have needed treatment to maintain good health I have not noticed a seasonality to their problems before being put on the pergolide.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 10:00 am:
Thanks Dr.O. Is founder/laminitis due to the CD the only reason you usually use pergolide? Sam does seem to be having re occuring bouts of laminitis...when Hank isn't. Hank is way more prone than Sam to founder or at least always has been. He doesn't seem to get "full blown" founder, just foot sore and laminatic. I did have him x-rayed a few years ago and he didn't have any rotation, however his rear hooves seem to be way more prone to lamintis. He is terribly stocked up in back with mild DP's a little heat in RR. It is bilateral so I don't think it is an abscess. RR seems much worse tho. His fronts seem fine This is how he presents spring and fall....grass or no grass. It seems to resolve itself in a month or 2. His back hooves look like a "foundered" horses hooves. Bute nor banamine seem to help it. In the winter/summer other than his hairy coat you would never know there is a thing wrong with him.
I just think we are to the point that I don't think it fair to him to let him suffer through 1 or 2 months every spring and fall if pergolide can relieve him. Worth a try anyway. Vet said I should see improvement rather quickly if indeed this founder caused by CD. I started him this morning on .75 ml's, He also said he thinks CD can be controlled through good management for the most part. Last time he saw Sam (about a month ago) he said I had done a wonderful job with him and he looked great (and he did). I THINK he is finally beyond good management, of course I will continue to manage him appropriately, the vet said a lot of people use pergolide because of poor management and as a band-aid, he said he knows that is not the case with me. I'm not sure though, I do try very hard, but I could tighten up their diets a little further I suppose. Whether that would help with a CD horse I'm not sure, he is IR too tho.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 2:01 pm:
Diane, I feed the capsules in with a handful of Safe Choice. Sugar doesn't even notice them, and she will notice ANYTHING suspicious so I figure they must have no taste. I leave the caps intact because then I can tell immediately if she misses eating one and I can hand feed it easily in some grain. I, too, would worry about leaving some powder at the bottom of the feed bowl.
I know you like to research like I do. There is a Yahoo discussion group that is only devoted to Equine Cushings. You might want to check it out. Tons and tons of Cushings and IR specific info. I often see that some other HA members are registered there also:
https://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
There is a seasonal rise in ACTH in Cushings horses. Like Lee says, don't be afraid of the Pergolide. It can save you some laminitis heartache IF your horse needs it. Read up on it as much as you can.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 - 4:07 pm:
Thanks Erika, I have been a member of that group for quite sometime. Just haven't visited it much, it is almost too much info!!
I e-mailed Todd's pharmacy and they already ans. .75 mg capusle is 48 cents That is MUCH cheaper, their shipping is $5 for 1st class mail, which of course you can use since you don't have to worry about spoilage!!!
I put Sam's pergolide in his feed this morning and he licked it right up (spearmint flavor) One thing about my pig horses it has to be pretty bad before they won't touch it. I'm sure he would eat a capsule in his "feed" with no problem.
I am going to try that next prescription time, IF everything goes well. Thank you very much everyone for your suggestions and success stories I hope I have one to tell in a few weeks. We are going to clean Sams sheath again after he has been on the pergolide for awhile and see if it makes a difference in that respect too.
Dr.O. his "secretions/tumors" do have an off smell to it and the "gray stuff" does appear oily and gross. His skin seems to be ok though.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 7:56 am:
Is it possible for the pergolide to start working in 3 days??? Sam is moving much better today (not 100%) by any means, but MUCH better. He isn't doing the "laminatic walk" anymore. Is this just coincidence?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 8:48 am:
The most common reason I start a horse on pergolide would be problems keeping a condition above a 4 and depression. And yes you can begin to see improvement in as little as three days.
DrO
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 12:12 am:
3 days is about the amount of time that went by when I began to see a definite "perking up" in my mare. I remember being shocked. I just couldn't believe that it could be the pergolide.
Good luck with Sam, Diane, and I hope you see continuing improvement.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 6:16 am:
Thanks Lee, that's good to know
Yesterday afternoon when I got home Sam seemed worse again. He's been dry lotted for 2 weeks now. When I put them in the dry lot he was fine for a few days and has continued to slide downhill after a couple days in there. I put him in a stall last night (it takes a lot before I will stall a horse)
Something is going on with that horse, I can't figure it out tho. Weird symptoms. I will have the vet out tomorrow if he doesn't seem better today (vet is off on Tues.) He is bright, with good appetite, but he seems to be foundering (I think). After all of the founder I have seen you would think I would know it when I saw it. He is presenting strangely tho, if it is founder. He is still peeing A LOT, like once an hour. Now that he is locked in I will be able to tell how much he is drinking. His back fetlocks are swollen and sore to the touch. His hooves don't have any heat, but I did detect a DP for the first time yesterday. He is standing stretched out on the fronts like he is trying to take weight off the hinds. He has been on a very low carb diet. He is shifting weight in the hinds quite often. reluctant to move without resting a back leg every 10 foot or so.
He HAS gotten like this before in the spring/fall even when dry lotted, it just is more extreme this year. He was trimmed last Fri. the farrier did find bruising in his WL, he walked off ok after his trim, but has gone down hill since then. I find it hard to believe a trim did this (he was a little off before his trim) AND there is the post hole hubby didn't fill in he may have fell in. Bute doesn't help. I did try banamine on him last night and that did seem to help some.
He really is very miserable all around, he is worse than the mare when she bowed her tendon, and Hank when he foundered. Put the 2 together and you have Sam! I hope he is better this morning.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 8:01 am:
Sam drank about 15 gallons last night (8hrs.) is that excessive for a 13.2hh horse(pony) it seems like it. If he drinks that much again today that would be 30 gallons in a 24 hr. period...
He does seem much better again this morning, but he did have some banamine last night ... a minimal dose of paste, I gave him the #500 dose. Too dark out to tell if he urinated a lot, but his stall wasn't soaked. I let him in the paddock while I cleaned the poop out and he was moving MUCH better...we had rain overnight and the ground is soft....HMMMM
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 9:59 am:
One of the symptoms of Cushings is drinking and peeing excessively DianE but I don't know if this is Sam's cause. If this is a recent change it may be due to other causes. For more on this see Diseases of Horses » Urinary System » Excessive Drinking and Urination, Polydipsia / Polyuria (PD/PU).
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 10:37 am:
Diane, excessive peeing and drinking can also be the result of a renal problem. I think I'd get some blood work done if you haven't already. I'm sure Dr.O will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the swelling can be indicative of renal problems also when it's combined with excessive drinking. Of course, if he was shut in a stall, he could just be badly stalked up; our old mare gets that way when she's in her stall overnight. Once she gets out and moves around, it goes away. And, can the stiffness of movement be attributed to arthritis? How old is Sam now? You might have more than one age related thing going on at the same time, which in my experience often happens with older horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 6:43 pm:
Hello Sara, that is certainly one of the possibilities along with several other causes and they are covered in the article I direct her too above.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 7:49 pm:
Thanks,I have been reading those articles for the last day. The excessive peeing is not out of the ordinary for Sam, he has been like that for a few years and I have attributed to the CD. He seemed healthy otherwise, same with the stocking up in back, been there for quite awhile, even when out 24/7 sometimes it just seems to get worse when he is having a hard time with what I believe is the CD.
He didn't drink quite as much today and I would put his water consumption over the last 24 hrs. between 18-20 gals. Sam does love his salt, I did not take it away tho. He seems to be stabalizing. His urine out put in his stall was normal, not excessive., Maybe the pergolide will help with this. He is not depressed, appetite seems normal, definitely not as spunky. Hooves seem to be bothering him and I have a suspicion he may have put his RH in that hole. I have been noticing a limp on that side, and the RH is the one he rests all the time after taking a few steps.
The poor guy has a lot going on, I am not 100% sure he doesn't have a problem with his urinary system, and those stupid "tumors" are getting awful close to his urethra.
I am going to see how he does over the next few days and if he slowly continues to improve that will be great. If not I will get the vet involved.
I am off next week, so will have the vet out to "clean" him again and see what comes of that problem.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 8:07 pm:
Since he's on a dry lot, try soaking his hay for a bit before feeding. If he is having trouble with IR along with the Cushings, it could help keep his blood sugar stabilized.
I almost always have to take Sugar off pasture this time of year or she will have mild foot-soreness. I am having her blood tested next week when vet comes for shots to see if we have a handle on the IR. Might be something to ask about for Sam when your vet comes out.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 8:10 am:
Normal water consumption last night! About 6 gals. He seems happier, still foot sore, but more willing to move a little more.
Of course he has to throw something new into the equation....diareha ( I can never spell that right)
I thought I read somewhere that pergolide can cause the runs, I didn't see it when I just went through the article again quickly...can that be a side effect of pergolide? I took the salt away this morning, he can have access to it for a couple hours a day when I get home. He does lick it a lot, but has NEVER had diarreha
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 5:58 pm:
Dr.O Sam seems much better all around, his urinating is normal, water consumption is normal, footiness is improving greatly. Much happier, his eyes look brighter BUT he has diarrhea still, quite watery. I looked at side effects of pergolide and found gastrointestinal problems...I suppose diarrhea would be included in that??? His appetite is good and no other problems. He is getting .75 ml of pergolide, should I lower his dose to .5ml and see how he does??? OR wait and see if the diarrhea resolves?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 8:53 pm:
Diane, imo you might want to give it a little time with the Pergolide. When our old mare was on it, she had loose stools for a while, then they returned to normal.
Have you changed his food at all? Our girl got to the point where she did much better on beet pulp with Senior food and rice bran than she did on hay. She'd eat the hay (grass) most of the time, but her weight and condition stayed much better on the beet pulp mix.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 10:10 pm:
Thanks Sara, this whole pergolide thing is rather confusing, I THINK dosage is based on symptoms or whatever works???
I think Sam is responding to the pergolide, but would .5 ml suffice I wonder? I let him out in the paddock for a couple hours today, he is actually looking much better. It was a great relief to see he wasn't urinating every hour. The only time I saw him pee was when I put fresh bedding in his stall (He HAS to pee on new bedding)
Sam is fat and IR his appetite is NOT lacking! He is getting 8#'s of decent quality pure grass hay, a half of a handful of alfalfa pellets and a 1/2 cup of ration balancer a day. He won't eat beet pulp, either will Hank, I think it is the only thing the hogs WON'T eat. The mare likes it though. I think his diet is ok it's not changed at all. He hasn't had any grass for a couple weeks. I've mentioned in many posts regarding different things through the years how Sam goes through a fall funk (usually late Oct. until Jan.) Same symptoms he has now (except he's a little early) and they are worse this year. That's why I thought maybe it was time to try the pergolide. He already has long, course, thick hair growing in patches all over his body. Hank and Flash are still pretty slick and shiny.
I just don't have a real starting point for the pergolide, and I suppose the least you can get away with using the better. If I lower him to .5 ml. and he continues to improve and the diarrhea goes away then I suppose .5 would be the thing to go with, I do hate to mess with it since he is improving so quickly BUT........
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 10:28 pm:
We started our mare a .5ml per our vet's suggestion, but then we upped to 1ml. She did good on 1ml for about a year, then started to loose her appetite, so we gradually backed her back down to .5ml where she is fine. I think I'd leave it at 1ml for awhile at least and see how he does; then slowly back off if you need to. It's been quite a while since I've read the HA article on this, so I don't remember what was suggested. With our mare it seemed almost to depend on the season now that I'm thinking about it. I do know our vet said to make any adjustments gradually.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 23, 2009 - 10:43 pm:
HMMMMM interesting Sara, I guess as long as Sam's diarrhea doesn't get out of control and nothing else happens leaving him at .75 ml at least during the fall/spring mos. would be a good idea.
I have read of people using the pergolide just during the spring/fall and taking them off of it (slowly) in the winter/summer. Sam seems to be quite seasonal, fall actually being worse then the spring.
He has never had diarrhea, he has had cow patties with change of diet before. But this is pretty much water, it has to be the pergolide, nothing else has changed.
What were your mares symptoms, I remember reading about her, but don't recall the details.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 9:34 am:
I have not seen diarrhea as a side effect in horses that I can remember and though it is listed as one for humans it has to remembered that humans are taking average doses 10 to 30 times greater than horses on a per weight basis. That said it is certainly not impossible and with humans the recommendation is that this is not a contraindication for continued use.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 24, 2009 - 8:56 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I am lowering his dose down to .5 ml slowly. His poops were better this afternoon. I gave him .65ml this morning, So it is probably transient.
I really am floored how his urination and water intake has normalized already. Used to be everytime I looked at him he was peeing.
He is still walking a bit tender footed, but at least he is walking! Everyday he seems to be getting a little better, he is already off the stall rest and allowed in the paddock too., hoping he will be able to go back to the dry lot soon.. I don't know if it is my imagination but his body is even starting to look better, he looked like he was holding all that water he was drinking and looked bloated. I did take a picture of him the day he started the pergolide so I will be curious if he looks better in a month...of course he will have enough hair by then to put a Yak to shame so may be hard to tell
Thank you for the informative articles and the members help, if I hadn't known better I would have started him on 2mls of pergolide as the vet suggested...I don't think that would have been a very good idea!
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 2:57 pm:
Diane, Paint is still on the 1 mg. Pergolide (about 7 weeks now). By the end of the 1st month, I did see a distinct change in his salt consumption/volume of urine. He will still, once in a while, pee a pond, but no longer great big lakes...so to speak. Just before he had his abcess, I had changed the mineralized salt blocks for plain ones, because he was eating so much salt I was afraid he would poison himself on one or more of the trace minerals. My other horse never eats salt and drinks & pees much less, so it's hard to compare them.
Paint has always had a good appetite, and the vet thought he was in good condition for a Cushing's horse. He does seem to have mild diarrhea since starting Pergolide, but nothing extreme. He has low ringbone in his RF, and abcessed in his LR. His efforts to stay off his LR seem to have stressed his RF and caused a flare-up of pain in the ringbone joint. Other than the diarrhea, I have not seen any negative effects of Pergolide.
All medications have side effects to a certain extent, though, and I also would not let this determine whether to medicate or not, unless the side-effects are worse than the condition you are trying to treat! I also use the capsules, they are more stable than the liquid. I have been getting them through ThrivingPets.comat $15 + $5 shipping for 30 capsules. Paint is quite willing to eat them in his a.m. bucket, I always check carefully, but he never leaves a crumb of anything.
Good luck,
Kathy
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 7:06 pm:
Diane,
I am happy to hear that Sam is improving. Hope the improvement continues.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 7:45 pm:
Thanks Lilo! Sam got to go out in the dry lot today for a couple hrs. he was glad to be able to get a good roll in the mud in. The ground is soft from the rain and he is walking nicely, he actually trotted into the paddock for "supper"
I think his front hooves are fine it's his back hooves he has something going on with, especially the RH. I clean his hooves every night and tonight I did detect a pretty good pulse in his RH with a tiny bit of heat. LH has a DP but no heat. Over all he has improved GREATLY. Next week I am having the vet out to clean his sheath again and I will have him check his hooves too.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 25, 2009 - 8:14 pm:
Kathy thanks for sharing your experience Hope Sam does as well as paint
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 12:32 pm:
I hope these pics will show the difference in Sam in just a weeks time. I am very glad I started the pergolide, even tho I was resistant at first.
EVERYTHING about him has improved...including demeanor. I didn't think he was depressed, but now that I see him this way I think maybe he was mildly depressed.
The day I started the pergolide, he was standing stretched out, looked bloated, and his "weird fat" had gotten huge He was in the beginning stages of founder... even tho dry lotted and was peeing every hour. The weird fat on his sides is gone and the rest is slowly melting away. (maybe I should give some of this stuff to Hank )
Absolutely nothing has changed in his diet. He is walking and trotting showing his unhappiness about being locked in the dry lot with out his buddies...before he didn't really care.
Lee you were right this is a miracle drug for these horses. Maybe he he will even shed this spring!
The day I started the pergolide...last Sat.
Today 1 week later
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 3:05 pm:
Great news, Diane and thanks for posting the photos.
This is a very helpful and informational thread for those of us who have horses who are aging and beginning to show some signs of needing treatment.
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 26, 2009 - 3:33 pm:
Diane, I just got this month's prescription and I see that ThrivingPets.com & Todd's Pharmacy are one and the same.
Next month the vet is coming to float Paint's teeth, and I plan to do more blood work at that point to assess the dose (i.e. his glucose level). Paint has never seemed depressed, but last week the farrier found a place on his RR sole where an abcess was possibly starting (he called it like an abcess, but not). So I guess we will reasses the dosage at that point...
Let us know how it goes!
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 3:13 pm:
Well this finally one thing that has turned out well in my horsey world.
Sam was released from jail today and is back in with the herd...he went galloping through the pasture like he never had a think wrong with him..I thought he was on his last leg last weekend
Peeing is normal
drinking is normal
sound as he gets
Hank was so Happy to see his "dad" again! They itched and itched each other...see the difference between Hanks coat and Sams
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 3:33 am:
That's great. They look oh so happy together
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 12:32 am:
I found the change in my mare unbelievable. Sam looks good, but the decrease in urination and drinking is the same thing that blew my mind. It took a couple years for my mare's coat to straighten out, but it did show great improvement the first year. Isn't it nice to see your baby doing well?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 8:02 am:
Thanks Lee, Yes it is great to see him "normal" again. His diarrhea is even gone now. I lowered his dose to .65 and it went away, I don't know if the pergolide was giving him diarrhea for sure, but the timing suggests it.
Thanks for your success stories, it really did help me make up my mind to use this drug. Poor Sam doesn't have to suffer until Jan. now.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 3, 2009 - 9:04 am:
A little update on Sam. He has went from a horse that looked 40yrs. old and couldn't move to a 10 yr. old arabian. He beat Hank in a gallop through the pasture yesterday, that does not happen often!
All signs of his CD are gone other than the long curly hair...he got wet yesterday and I could see just how long and curly it was (in patches)
I cleaned his hooves out yesterday, Sam has really been prone to thrush the last couple of years, his hooves looked really good with no sign of the stinky thrush and it has been wet here again.
He was strange with his dosage tho, .75ml seemed to give him diarrhea, .5ml the excess urination and drinking returned a little. .65ml seems to be a perfect dosage for him at this point.
Dr.O. could as little as .10 ml really make a difference?? Obviously this is a powerful drug so I suppose it is possible, this has peaked my curiosity.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 10, 2009 - 8:51 am:
Dr.O. I was reading through the cushings article and thought it had changed a little! Thanks for the updated article
I could kick myself in the butt for letting the vet order the liquid, I thought he would have known about the 30 day thing...of course he wanted me to give him 2ml a day so it would have been 30 days.
I also would think the pharmacies would be up to date on such things....Sam's bottle has an exp. date of 12/13/09 which is about when it would be used up at the dosage I am giving.
He obviously is a horse that responds well to this treatment, everyday he looks better. All of his symptoms are gone, it even appears that the Yak hair is slowing down. His fat pads are even about gone.
In the article it says the pergolide will turn a different color when dated, what does it look like? I have noticed Sam.s is now a milky yellowish color...no matter how much I shake it.
This stuff was VERY expensive, BUT if I need to get some fresh stuff I will
Thanks
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 10, 2009 - 12:12 pm:
Hey Diane (& other Cushings horse owners), just thought you'd be interested to know...Paint has started shedding, 2 months into his Pergolide journey! I know it's the wrong time of year, but in spite of my efforts to clip (much worse hack job than yours, Diane) he still has like a 3 inch coat in places. Since it doesn't usually get very cold here, and then not until Dec-Jan, I am not too concerned. The vet's comment was...in season or not, when you get shedding in a Cushingoid horse, you should take it and be happy!
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 10, 2009 - 12:35 pm:
Kathy I find it hard to believe your clip job was worse than Sams!
Good to know he is shedding! Sam has enough hair to get him through the winter already, but the long Yak hair is really slowing down. He just has patches also, instead of the full fledged Yak look!
I hope this saves me a clip job...I can hardly stand doing it anymore his hair is SOOOO long and thick it takes me days to finish, then my patience wanes and well you saw the finished product
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 10, 2009 - 1:30 pm:
I hear you, Diane! I spent a good part of my spring "vacation" clipping Paint...misery in NM, spring is really the wind season (under 25 mph they just call it breezy, which I find totally hysterical) and after the first session I realized I had to wear a mask to keep the hair out of my mouth and nose. After the last marathon session, I had to visit the chiropractor 3 or 4 times to get some of the kinks out. Then I gave up, except for doing his legs after he had an abcess 'cause I kept imagining swelling when it was just hair!
Luck to you and Sam. Here's to no clipping next year!
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 8:36 am:
Dr.O. Sam has been on pergolide for 2 mos. now, nothing but good things have come of it His edema in his back legs went away, he pees normally now...that peeing every hour was a bit worrisome! He hasn't grown anymore Yak hair, not depressed, no gimping around...this continues and I LIKE it!
Question, as I stated above the vet gave me too much pergolide suspension. The bottle isn't even a 1/4 gone. SOOO if it only is good for 35 days should I get new stuff OR wait and see if symptoms start returning? I am still giving him the "old stuff" The pharmacies exp date is 12/13/09 on the bottle.
Here's a picture of Sams yak hair this is exactly how much he had when I started the pergolide in Sept. The rest of his coat is thick..but normal, shiny, and dapply.
I circled his Yak hair, funny how it always comes in so much lighter than the rest of his "normal" winter coat.
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 11:03 am:
Yak hair or not, he is a cutie.
Shirl
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 11:11 am:
Diane, if the medication is making important changes in your horses health and it is only good for 35 days what do you think you should do?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 2:54 pm:
Dr.O. I wasn't sure it was as simple as that I guess research says it is only good for 35 days...YET my bottle says 12/13. This stuff wasn't cheap! So I guess my question would be if it has lost it's "power" wouldn't the symptoms return?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 7:26 pm:
Diane, it depends on how much efficacy has been lost, how bad the pathology of the horse is, secondary factors that may induce or worsen clinical signs, and how long you go without proper dosage. I see no way to predict what might happen given the information available.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 17, 2009 - 6:46 am:
Dr.O Is the powder or capsule form suppose to be more stable than the liquid form? Before I go ordering this stuff again I want to get it right!
Here is a quote from the article on the horse
"Pergolide mesylate POWDER is known to be unstable when exposed to light, and factors affecting the stability of compounded pergolide products are unknown," said Davis. "The purpose of our study was to evaluate the effect of temperature and light on the stability of a liquid form of pergolide mesylate.}
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 18, 2009 - 6:37 am:
Diane we cover this in the Formulations section of the Pergolide subtopic in the article on Cushings.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 18, 2009 - 7:06 am:
Thanks, I guess it isn't really known how long the other forms are stable for sure and they also degrade in light and temperature?
From your article
Pergolide is sensitive to temperature and light so prone to degradation (over time).
SOO a person is probably best to get it a month at a time regardless of composition?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 18, 2009 - 12:59 pm:
Not really Diane, I don't think that is the implication from the article. The problem with light, if it is a problem with the solid too, is simply addressed by using a dark colored container and/or storing it in a cabinet or refrigerator. These compounding companies buy the product from the manufacturer (Eli Lily?) with a expiration date that reflects when it was manufactured. When they repackage it as a solid the date is still accurate with proper handling, as least far as we know at this time. Hopefully they will put this date on the container so you will know. Because of this it is very important that you deal with a reputable compounding company.
What has been found out just this year is that no matter how fresh the product is once placed in an aqueous solution it rapidly degrades. It may well be the folks who compounded those bottles were unaware as of yet of this fact and you could try approaching them about replacement.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 18, 2009 - 9:16 pm:
Here's what I don't understand and maybe once again it is my terrible mathematic mind again.
The bottle I have says it is 50ml, I have been giving Sam .65ml religiously everyday, he started it Sept. 18... 2mos. ago. 60 days.
IF he is getting .65ml it should last 77 days Right?? 50 divided by .65.
I still have well OVER half of a bottle left more like 3/4th's of a bottle....wonder what's up with that??? I fill the syringe that comes with it up to .65 is my math off OR is something screwy???
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 7:05 am:
0.65ml multiplied by 60 days = 39ml used so far, thus 11ml left? Would that be right?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 7:05 am:
OK this is really bothering me
I studied the bottle it says 50ml then it says (50x1) I was suppose to give him one ML but decided on the lower dose....the syringe that the vet gave me, has .01 all the way up to 1 ml I am drawing it to the .65 line, am I doing something wrong?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 7:09 am:
LL that seems right. BUT the bottle is still about 3/4'ths full. If 11 ML was left out of 50 it should be way less than that
I'll call the vet today and see what he says if I can get a hold of him.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 8:02 am:
OH BOY so I went to fill Sam's syringe this morning, looked good, decided to squirt it in the garbage to make sure it was in there, you really can't tell through the syringe. Squirted into the garbage...NOTHING did it again...NOTHING! I squirt it on Sams feed which is wetted down so I really didn't notice nothing was coming out
WOW what a brain I am huh? Anyway obviously he has been getting it eradicaly lately(if at all), I'm sure he was getting it regularly the first month. so now I am toying with just eliminating it and see what happens.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 8:08 am:
Dr.O. one more question and I'll go to work I gave Sam SMZ's about the same time I started the pergolide, is it possible that could have cleared a UTI? His peeing is still quite normal as is his drinking, even tho it would seem he hasn't been getting any pergolide for awhile.
Thanks
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 2:01 pm:
Diane, I don't know what liquid they mix the pergolide with, but certainly the possibility exists that the un-expelled solution dries in the syringe and gums it up. You should rinse it with water regularly, for sure. Plus syringes do get worn and less accurate.
In NM we can get syringes at the feed store. I would get clear, 1 mL syringes and rinse them daily and discard them when the plungers get too tight or too loose.
I have been very happy using the compounded capsules, which do come in a dark container. Paint is not at all a picky eater, and he actually will (delicately) pick the capsule out of my hand and eat it, with or without pellets on those occasions when I forget to put it in his bucket. Maybe he can smell the apple flavoring that's in it? I don't know, I did wonder what the point is of flavoring in a capsule!
If Sam isn't a really picky guy, is there some special reason that you want to mess with the liquid...especially given the stability issue? Or is it just what the vet ordered for you? I am sure you could actually have .65 mg capsules compounded, if that's what you think the correct dose is and if the vet writes it that way.
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 7:07 pm:
Kathy the suspension is what the vet ordered, he thought it was the best way to dose them to make sure they get it...YEA right! That syringe must have lost it's sucking power somewhere along the way. Geeees I'm stupid!
I called the vet today and told him to order me either pills or granules, he said most horses won't eat it...HMMMM. I told him my pigs will eat just about anything so order me a moths worth at .65mg and we will see how it goes.
So that's where we stand now
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 19, 2009 - 11:41 pm:
My liquid came in a brown bottle with a replacement cap which was blue and had a hole on the top just big enough for the syringe to fit into. I could just turn the bottle upside down and pull back the plunger and suck up the pergolide. It will help if when you first stick the syringe into the bottle the plunger is pulled back, then push it forward to express all the air and create a vacume,then pull back to suck liquid up. Of course, syringes can get worn out, too.
I liked the liquid because I could just put in on the feed or shoot it in the mouth with no objections. It didn't seem to have any objectional taste.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 12:12 am:
Diane: I think it was a couple of years ago that there was a hurricane that swept thru Texas - where I ordered my mare's pergolide from ( they came in small alfalfa chews, by the way ). She was without medication for almost 3 wks and weathered it well.
I've since changed to a pharmacy in my state to avoid that worry again. They only sell it in powdered form, and we've done very well with it. I mix it with a bit of applesauce and syringe it in her mouth. She's had it in pill form ( I think that was the human medication before they stopped it ), alfalfa chews and this powder. All three worked fine.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 6:59 am:
Most things are possible Diane. But does UTI explain what you and your veterinarian have seen?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 6:59 am:
Lee, my vet was saying something about he didn't like the powdered form especially, something about it being dangerous for the human if they inhale any particles he adamantly didn't want to order the powder for that fact, maybe Dr.O. knows something about that.
I didn't mind the liquid form, except the stability issue, which makes it even more expensive because shipping is high on the stuff and I would have to get it monthly. Plus obviously I don't know how to run a syringe! I just threw out what was left it was well over 35 days old.
I told him to get me whatever was cheapest between the granules(no dust) and pills.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 7:09 am:
I don't know Dr.O. I have NO doubt Sam has CD, and maybe getting the pergolide occasionally continued to help him.
I have noticed some "symptoms" returning slowly. I have ordered more pergolide because of this.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 7:39 am:
Dr.O. IF Sam had an UTI is SMZ's something that can clear the infection? I didn't see it in the article. I never really suspected an UTI just took for granted it was the CD causing his problems, he was given SMZ's because of his "tumors" I do wonder if coincidentally we did clear an UTI
Just curious if it is possible for SMZ's to clear an UTI?
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 3:52 pm:
The vet called me back and said the cheapest deal at Wedgewood he could find for me were the gourmeds (anyone try them) He said they are scored so he could get me 100 at 1.5mgs. and that would be two doses easily broke apart. SOOOOO (here we go with math again)! the would last him 200 days and I believe the price was $120, which would be almost 7 mos. worth, which would be about 60 cent a day ( I think) BUT I wonder if it is a good idea to get that many at a time???
I told him about Todd's pharmacy so he is going to check that out for me also.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 5:03 pm:
Diane,
The only problem I can see is that the scored 1.5 mg pills, when cut in half will be .75, which is a little more than you came up with for Sam's optimal dose.
Have you tried the online stores like Petmeds.com.
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 5:36 pm:
Interesting about the powdered perigold. Makes sense.
Never a dull moment on the farm, Diane.
Thanks for sharing and helping us to all learn from your myriad of experiences.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 6:04 pm:
Rachelle the vet said they only make them in .25 increments so if I don't use the liquid it is either .50 OR .75 vet said he would go with the .75.
Vicki never a dull moment is right but at least I finally have all my horse problems resolved for awhile!(shouldn't have said that)
My vet said something about getting the powder on yourself is bad too, but I suppose that is true with any form of the medication, I suppose it would just be easier to get the powder on yourself due to the "poof" affect
I'll have to look it up, my vet is a little goofy sometimes and his new baby is having problems so he is lacking sleep.
When I talked to him today I asked him if he was aware that pergolide suspension becomes unstable after 35 days according to new research...he said NO it doesn't Said he just got off the phone with Wedgewood Pharmacy and they said it was good for 2-3 months??? No wonder us owners get so confused!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 20, 2009 - 6:12 pm:
This must be where the vet got his powder info..since he deals with wedgewood
https://newsroom.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/pergolidegranules.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 11:44 am:
Diane, refer him to
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Feb 1;234(3):385-9.
Effects of compounding and storage conditions on stability of pergolide mesylate.
Davis JL, Kirk LM, Davidson GS, Papich MG.
Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA.
Comment in:
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Apr 1;234(7):873, author reply 873.
OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of temperature and light over a 35-day period on stability of pergolide mesylate after compounding in an aqueous vehicle. DESIGN: Evaluation study. PROCEDURES: Pergolide was compounded into a formulation with a final target concentration of 1 mg/mL. Aliquots of the formulation were then stored at -20 degrees, 8 degrees, 25 degrees, or 37 degrees C without exposure to light or at 25 degrees C with exposure to light for 35 days. Samples were assayed in triplicate by means of high-pressure liquid chromatography immediately after compounding and after 1, 7, 14, 21, and 35 days of storage. RESULTS: Mean+/-SD concentration of pergolide in the formulation immediately after compounding was 1.05+/-0.086 mg/mL. Samples exposed to light while stored at 25 degrees C had undergone excessive degradation by day 14, samples stored at 37 degrees C had undergone excessive degradation by day 21, and samples stored at 25 degrees C without exposure to light had undergone excessive degradation by day 35. The decrease in expected concentration corresponded with the appearance of degradation peaks in chromatograms and with a change in color of the formulation. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Results indicated that pergolide mesylate was unstable after compounding in an aqueous vehicle and that storage conditions had an effect on stability of the compounded formulation. Compounded pergolide formulations in aqueous vehicles should be stored in a dark container, protected from light, and refrigerated and should not be used >30 days after produced. Formulations that have undergone a color change should be considered unstable and discarded.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 12:03 pm:
Dr.O I'm thinking maybe I should send it to Wedgewood! They are the ones telling him it is good for that long. They HAVE to know better wouldn't they? When I asked the vet about about it he mumbled something, then said he just spoke with Wedgewood 3 minutes ago and that is what they told him! How can I argue that? I will refer him to that next time I talk to him.
Thanks
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 1:19 pm:
Diane,
It sounds to me, that the scored pills wouldn't work because of the dosage, but if you got the granules or powder and a graduated scoop with .5mg increments, you would be better able to regulate the dosage of the medication. I'm thinking that this amount is so small that Sam wouldn't even know if it was or wasn't in his 'feed' and you could increase or decrease the dosage as needed.
Also, according to Dr. O's reference study. The degree of degradation starts as soon as it is produced, so that would make the expiration come much more quickly depending upon how long it was on the shelf, how long it took to ship and how long the customer had it on hand before use. That is a pretty small window of opportunity for customer use.
After I posted to this thread last night I started to look up Pergolide at a variety of online retailers.
I was thinking that if you could find this in a formulation for dogs and cats and if it was the same strength. That it could possibly be bought in a smaller pill form that you might be able to use in conjunction with the scored pills ( to give you the correct dosage.
Then, I thought of my compounding pharmacy. They buy the raw materials and then compound it into pills at whatever dosage you need/ per the vet's prescription. That might be a way for you to go.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 4:31 pm:
Thanks Rachelle, they don't make pergolide for dogs or cats, I think horses are the only "consumers"
The pharmacys are compounding pharmacys, seems .25 mg is the increments it goes by. I may go with the granules, that way I could give him the .65mg. The vet is still looking around, but I think I will call him and tell him to order the granules and see how that goes.
I noticed today Sam is "hanging out a lot" and starting to pee more. So better get it ordered.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 6:07 pm:
Diane, maybe they have evidence that is different and can provide it.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 6:44 pm:
OK Dr.O. I have been motivated to e-mail the company and ask them, if they reply will let you know what they say. I also included the above study you posted in my e-mail....
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 22, 2009 - 1:58 am:
Gee, Diane, unless you're throwing around the powdered stuff, you're not going to sniff it up. After all, it's just like the powdered form of bute. If you're throwing that stuff around in the air enough to sniff some in, then you're gonna be wasting a lot of money considering the price of the product. I refused to sprinkle it on the feed in the tub for just that reason....the price. It was just too easy for my mare to push her food around and refuse to eat it. Then that meant the dose of pergolide was wasted.
When I mix it with the applesauce, I mix it carefully in a small bowl and put it in a large syringe. Yeah, it's a fine powder, but you're not working with heaps of it and poofing clouds of product into your face. I have to say that I worked nearly 40 years in dentistry, handling a lot worse than pergolide. I hate to recall that, in college, we all had our little stores of mercury to play with along with asbestos that we packed on models to make custom trays. Heck, we're around dangerous substances every day and we make sure that we avoid inhaling it, ingesting it, or immersing ourselves in it.
Any one of us can go out to our barns, clean a few stalls, shake out some hay and groom a few horses then drag the arena. After all that, blow your nose and see what comes out. Now, THAT is inhaling a dose of particulates!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 22, 2009 - 6:44 am:
Lee it was my vet who said he wouldn't order it, maybe he thinks since I couldn't run a syringe I wasn't capable of not sniffing the powder He may be right!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 22, 2009 - 4:17 pm:
Some powder products are ground so finely that they "poof" when you open the container making it virtually impossible not to inhale some when handling it. Wearing a mask helps somewhat but is not a perfect solution.
Exposure to such powders can certainly contribute to health problems (allergies, asthma, breathing difficulties, not to mention ingestion of contents that may not be good for you), as can exposure to moldy hay.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 22, 2009 - 6:07 pm:
Here is a trick that my step mom used to use with instant coffee. It helped give level measure and kept the coffee fresher longer.
If the jar of granules or powder comes with a seal on it. Do not take the seal off. Instead, use a knife and cut the smallest possible hole that will let you get your scoop in the jar. Cut it straight across one end. Any poof of particulates will hopefully stay in the jar.
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 23, 2009 - 11:18 am:
Good idea, Rachelle!
Thanks.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 23, 2009 - 1:31 pm:
Well Wedgewood e-mailed me back and here is their response... as I said now wonder we horse owners get so confused!
Dear Customer
There has been a lot of controversy about the expiration date of Pergolide. We sent our compounded medication out for testing and the lab found that our compounded Pergolide was stable for 90 days. We only dispense a 60 day supply out due to shipping, etc we want to make sure that the medication is well within the 90 days BUD that we give to our preparation.
Hope this information helps
Dean DeRose RPH
Wedgewood Pharmacy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 23, 2009 - 5:32 pm:
YA know I just re-read that e-mail carefully, when I asked them the question it was specifically about pergolide suspension.... the above e-mail from them just says compounded pergolide HMMMMM
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 25, 2009 - 9:29 am:
The vet called and we decided to try the gourmeds at 1.25mg. cut in half that will be real close to the .65 mg.
He said he told them I was being indecisive between the granules and gourmeds so they said they will also send a FREE 100mg of the granules for me to try! It does pay to be indecisive sometimes
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 11:56 am:
Got the apple flavored gourmeds today(Wedgewood pharmacy), broke one in half and gave it to Sam with a small piece of carrot no fuss no muss...I LIKE them! Much easier than the liquid and I know he is getting it this way.
So for price comparisons...goofy vet got me 1.5 MG sigh.... so I broke just a tiny bit off the one half.
60 day supply(1.5mg broke in half) of Gourmeds is $60(with shipping).... 50cents a day and much easier to prepare and store than the liquid AND cheaper!
Will try the granules when the gourmeds run out. I got a free months supply of that too, so don't know the price for sure. The exp date for the gourmeds and the granules was in the fall of 2010 so they are much more stable too!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 29, 2009 - 3:59 pm:
I was wrong he HATES the gourmeds
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 1, 2009 - 6:21 am:
I tried melting Sams Gourmed and mixing it in with his "feed" when I fed the horses he was pushing it around a bit and picking at it. They never leave their designated feeding stations, but with horses never say never!
I went out to get hay and he must have booted Hank out of his spot and there was Hank scarfing down Sams feed with the pergolide He thought it tasted OK and proceeded to devour it, I couldn't get him off of it before he had ate it all! ( I hope a horse that doesn't have cushings won't get sick from it)
Going to try one pushed in an apple piece today! He really hates the stuff. Even the liquid form, last time I put that in his feed he wouldn't eat it either. I don't want to resort to syringing if I don't have to, he already is suspicious of everything I feed him tho. If I have to start syringing I bet he will become hard to catch.
Never thought the pig would turn up his nose at something, he even thinks de-wormers and bute are good.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 1, 2009 - 5:08 pm:
Dr.O. I got the gourmed down Sam in a piece of apple, but it seems like everytime he gets pergolide he quits eating, he isn't getting a very big dose, .65mg. One thing that always worries me is if one of the pigs go off feed because it is very, very unusual. He also is acting "slow" lethargic...hard to describe, but definitely not himself. His hair is growing like crazy again, but the urinating and drinking seems normal at this point.
He did fine with the liquid pergolide at first, after I discovered he wasn't getting any, I started giving it to him again and the same thing happened(quit eating), so I threw the rest of the bottle away thinking maybe it had gone bad.
I am in a bit of a quandry because I don't know if he feels bad because of the pergolide or because he wasn't getting any before.
It really seemed to help him quite a bit when I first started it, but now I am not so sure it is.
Would stopping it cold turkey for awhile be alright to see how he fares without it and if his appetite and personality will return??
The hair I can live with!
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 1, 2009 - 8:03 pm:
Dr.O. I am learning, went back out and took TPR everything well WNL.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 2, 2009 - 6:50 am:
DianeE, I would not expect anything much worse than the problems you were expecting prior to the introduction of the medicine. However the article gives several other possible recommendations for if you experience mild adverse side effects from the medication and could be considered also.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 2, 2009 - 7:15 am:
Thanks Dr.O. I think I will skip it and see what happens. He has always done well in the winter months. I will keep a careful eye on him to make sure he doesn't start "going downhill"
There is also some major diarrhea in the pen, Splattered all over the fence! I can't swear it was from Sam, but am suspicious since he got it when he started the pergolide also.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 2, 2009 - 5:34 pm:
Read the article again Dr.O. and decided to try the granules (they definitely have a "poof" affect. I could see it floating in the sunlight.) I handled it carefully too! There is no covering to just slit and use. Anyway I gave him .5mgs. of it and he ate it right up. Then went to boot Flash off her feed, so he seems to accept the granules right now.
I see in the article it says it is alright to divide the dosage, I would prefer to do that I think. There must have been some after taste to the gourmeds and liquid he didn't like. Hopefully he will continue to accept the granules.
Is it better to split the dosage?? I kind of makes me wonder if it would be as effective given smaller doses twice a day? Any research on that?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 2, 2009 - 6:31 pm:
I don't know of any research on the subject Diane.
DrO
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Friday, Dec 11, 2009 - 2:58 pm:
Diane, I was just looking at ThrivingPets.com, and their pergolide caps come in 0.375 mg, so if you are still set on 0.65 mg, you could give 2 a day, at once or divided dose, even. Prices have gone up a tad, but for 30 1 mg caps that I get, it is $16.50 w/$5 shipping, which is very reasonable, I think. As I said before, Paint will eat them out of his bucket, or out of my hand plain or with pellets.
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Dec 11, 2009 - 8:06 pm:
Thanks Kathy, I had my vet check prices at Tim's he said they were slightly cheaper then wedgewood and since he has a relationship with wedgewood it wasn't worth the difference...I believe it was less than a dollar a month.
Sam is eating the granules, I'm not sure of the price of them. It is pretty cheap tho.
The gourmeds were a little more expensive.. and going to go to waste..he won't touch them no matter what I do to disguise them.
Anyone need any gourmeds out there????
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 - 12:19 pm:
And in any case, Diane, my math brain (such as it is) was dead. I was driving to work when I realized that 2 x 0.375 is 0.750...duh!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 12, 2009 - 2:31 pm:
Kathy don't go to the figuring total protein thread then...have to be a mathematician for that one
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 6:24 pm:
Diane, I started my gelding on pergoglide and he has watery manure after 3 days. I saw that happened to Sam - how long did it last? Did you do anything about it
My horse weighs about 1400# and we put him on 1.5 mg of pergoglide. He's been on Fasttrack since the laminitis episode a month ago.
Thanks,
nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 6:53 pm:
Nancy I split his dose AM PM until the diarrhea went away, then slowly started making the morning dose bigger until he got it all in the morning. He hasn't had a recurrence of the diarrhea since, except this winter when he poisoned himself.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:09 pm:
OK, I'll try that if it doesn't go away in a few days. Thanks for letting me know. He is staring to shed out already, so hopefully that is a good sign!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 1, 2010 - 10:57 pm:
My oh my a year goes by fast, Like clock work this time of year proves to be very hard on Sam. I looked to see when I started this post last year and lo and be hold same time of year, and he went through the exact same thing he is going through now.
Sam was trimmed about 2 weeks ago or around there, ever since then he has been lame and going down hill quickly. I have taken him off all grass and started watering down his hay, he is on 1.5 mg's of pergolide, and in the lean-to/paddock area with Flash, deep bedding in the "stall"
Dr.O. should I up his pergolide or see if he stabilizes without doing so? He is not horrible as I was watching him carefully knowing the end of Aug. was the beginning of his problems in the last few years. I did up his pergolide the beginning of Aug. from 1 mg to 1.5 mg.'s hoping to stave this off... I think the trim set him over the edge, even tho it was not a bad trim, I had the farrier be very conservative knowing Sam is quite sensitive this time of year.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 2, 2010 - 5:38 pm:
Dr.O. is there anyway I can distinguish if this "lameness" is due to Sam's cushings disease. I am starting to wonder now.
Here's the history, farrier trimmed him a couple weeks ago and he was immediately lame afterwards, he didn't improve much over the last couple weeks (VERY hard ground) He had been fine up to that point. I have been watching him carefully because this is the time of year he can get "weird" for lack of a better word. This is his first fall on pergolide so wasn't sure if the weirdness would appear or not.. a long with acting strange he usually becomes lame and laminatic.
He will not come out of the soft shavings, but other wise seems good. I do not feel a real strong DP and maybe a little heat in one hoof. I decided to put his easy boot RX's on him and boy did he come to life he was flying around that paddock having a total hissy fit about being locked up, even the turns looked very good. I decided to let him in the dry lot and he went out with an extended trot I didn't think he was capable of and looked very good doing it Those boots did make a difference when he foundered before, but nothing like this, he was completely normal with them.
I had examined his hooves before I put his boots on and he really has very little wall above the sole...if any
Question...even if this isn't related to his cushings disease, should I still have him locked up and on a "diet" I can see his ribs easily, he does still have his "weird" fat on his butt I would rate him a 5 bcs, if not taking the "weird" fat into account. I DO watch his diet very carefully, but have taken it to a more extreme.
I think he may have bruised soles like Hank did. As much as I hate them having bruised soles it is easier to deal with than founder.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 2, 2010 - 6:03 pm:
Diane, this could be completely coincidence, but my 8yo QH is acting just like Sam. It turned out that he has/had a bruised sole from the hard ground a rock or whatever. As soon as I put his boots on him he went from dead lame to a canter, lol!
Anyway, I'm sure Dr. O will have some insight into this, but since this has happened to me this summer with more than one horse (abscess, bruise, trim issues, whatever), maybe Sam is OK. IN the long run, you're the one there with him and Dr. O can only conjecture.
One thing you might want to try is to have his glucose/insulin ratio tested again, as the most recent scientific publications indicate that the severity of IR can be linked to the severity of future laminitis. This doesn't mean you can let your guard down, but my guy went from severely IR to almost "normal" due to a loss of weight, and having that information tells me how careful I need to be with the diet.
good luck - nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 2, 2010 - 6:38 pm:
Thanks Nancy, Hank did the same thing this year, I am certain he didn't founder (Hank). Sam just scares me this time of year, with this being the first fall on pergolide I don't know if it will help him or not... I can count Sam's ribs he is not fat, he is IR. I think I have his diet down (before this last episode) I think I will continue to be conservative...JIC. After some thought tho, his lameness did occur with his trim...not out of the blue.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 6, 2010 - 10:06 pm:
Founder from Cushings looks like any founder. But when a horse has Cushings, it should give you a high degree of suspicion they are related. If after treating it as you would any founder things don't improve you and your vet should consider increasing the treatment.
DrO
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