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Discussion on Narcolepsy? New Horse, 6, went down at a big ride yesterday...
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New Member:
equestra
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Posted on Monday, Sep 21, 2009 - 7:37 pm:
Hi everyone,
I just joined the site - it's really wonderful! I've been thru quite a horse learning adventure this year, having had some spook / trail misadventures with one horse, and becoming very afraid, but I recently found my wonderful trail companion who helped rebuild my trust and is just a bombproof angel.
Scout's a Rocky Mountain horse, big healthy 6 year old critter, my new love. I've been riding him around a month now 3-5 days per week, arena and serious trail.
My problem was yesterday at a big community "poker" trail ride. I was a nervous mom, and nervous with my new endurance saddle for trail (I usually ride english). Western rigging still eludes me a bit, and I may have tightened my cinch too tight. We were in a totally new place with so much going on... people, horses, music, a generator, dogs... tacking up and riding on the street... going with two unknown horses my friends were riding... over stimulus central.
It was a hot day, but we'd barely done anything save ride 50 yards to the sign up spot for the ride. After standing for 20 min or so, my horse went over like a sawed down redwood! I had no idea what was coming! The medic was right there as well as a vet student, everyone said he seemed alright, maybe he fell asleep? So we went cautiously out on a nice, slow walking ride.
We passed many other horses, made it past a soccer field with a few stray balls, had a few neighboring horses flip out, and Scout was my little rock of confidence. 2 miles later, stopping for one of our tribe to go to the bathroom, we were standing around again - 5 minutes into it, Scout parked out and began to tremble like he might go down again. I leapt off him, loosened the cinch, and he seemed 100% fine again. No increase in breathing / pulse / body temp, no visible sweat except under the saddle pad. We had a great friend came to pick us up to bring him home rather than continue on.
Now it's everyone's great debate - maybe I should get the seller to buy him back, have the vet run 100 tests, maybe he's got a heart murmur, maybe he's narcoleptic (my suspicion)...
While I'm waiting for my vet to call me back, I want to know if there's a possibility it's mom error? I'm certainly hoping so! Between a major cinch and so much new stimulation I want to believe it was not a serious health issue. I so love my new baby and want to keep him even if it means learning to cope with a problem - as long as I don't kill myself in the process.
I've never had any other problems, cross ties, tacking, bathing, in stall, in turnout... he's a healthy critter with plenty of get up n go.
One thing I have noticed - when he's a bit nervous he can get a wheezy sound in his nostrils.
Can a horse have anxiety disorder?
All responses will be ever so welcomed. I'm still relatively new to keeping large horses (prior to this year, I had only minis and rode friends horses, etc) and am such a worry wart mom! This warrants serious concern obviously though.
Thanks so much,
Robin
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 1:01 am:
Oh Robin,
What an experience! I hope this turns out OK, it's not easy to find solid trail mounts, and Scout sounds like a good fella.
RE tightening this type of cinch:
Many people tighten the cinch more than they need to. A western type endurance saddle that fits a horse with good withers can be mounted with no cinch whatsoever by a skilled rider. (mounted, not ridden)  Personally, I tighten the cinch enough to keep the saddle from sliding back from my horse HB's withers, and he has a nice, well-sprung ribcage, which is important.
IMHO these saddles slip because: they do not fit, or they slide back too far, or the rider gets way off center and the cinch is waaay loose.
I have seen one horse faint from a tight cinch, but have seen a number of horses lie down, roll, or wash out with sweat for that reason.
I hope things work out for you and Scout. I like Rocky Mountain horses a lot; such a deluxe trail riding choice.
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New Member:
equestra
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 2:30 am:
Thanks for the response Suzie, still waiting for the vet to ring me back.
Yes this endurance saddle is an Abetta - my saddle in waiting while waiting to get a Clinton Anderson endurance saddle = which I think is going to be my one of choice after riding one that was awesome. It seems to fit alright, but he's a lower withered horse, and it does slide a bit - I use a breastplate with it.
And admittedly I'm still figuring out the measurements for the tack. My english gear with my other horse I had on lockdown with measurements.
Scout is also quite round - very healthy boy - so my friend was saying it's very easy to overgirth such an animal.
The previous owners had him since 18 months, and he's never had an episode such as this. So I want to believe it was mom's fault.
I'm pretty tired, will check back tomorrow, hopefully this is congruent and makes sense. =)
R
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 6:16 am:
Welcome Robin,
Based on the lack of abnormalities by the examining vet who was right there and that the horse could be aroused out of a second episode, I too think these sound like narcoleptic episodes. All my clients with narcoleptic horses have been able to safely ride their horses as meal time was the most common reason for the episode and the problem did not happen under saddle. If the horse is having episodes under saddle there are obvious safety concerns. Did the horse spend the night at the campground possibly causing him to be unusually sleepy that day?
I disagree with Suzie's interpretation of events she has witnessed. There are horses that faint (have narcoleptic episodes) when the girth is tightened but it is not because the girth has been overtightened, it is a medical problem with the horse. I have been responsible for tightening the girths of my two girls horses and their friends when we go riding for well over a decade and on a variety of different horses. I always tighten the girth just as much as I can get. Being a big guy use to handing livestock, that is pretty dang tight yet have never witnessed horses sweating or going down in discomfort from an over tightened girth. Where this has occurred it would suggest to me something else is wrong.
I have seen other folks horses that had their own opinions on how tight their girth should be and quick to let the owners know their opinion with pinned ears and even sometimes a nip (bad horsie). There may be a horse out there that dives to the ground if he does not like the way he is being tacked I just have not seen it.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 10:42 am:
I have a horse that will sink down and stretch out if her girth is too tight; but I haven't seen her fall over.She looks like she might, though, if I left her as she is. Of course, I jump right over and loosen it the minute she shows signs of discomfort. (no, she's not spoiled at all!)
As an experiment, if you can safely do so, you might try riding your horse with a looser girth, or the girth in a little different place and see if that makes any difference.
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New Member:
equestra
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 11:14 am:
Hey Doc (and everyone else),
Yes they happened under saddle (and I"ve been observing him and it hasn't happened at all since), and only when we stopped. He was a bit flighty standing around this time, with all the commotion, so while I waited for friends I found a tiny patch of grass to let him munch. After standing in place over 10 min, boom!
Wouldn't this happen at other times while not under saddle? Is that one chemical test the only one that can be performed to find out if that's what is wrong? The colic potential is frightening.
I was figuring if this was going to be the case, when I stop I'll hop down? He's a hand shorter than my former horse, so I can hop up and down w/o drama. It is scary though, this potential danger.
I'm going to tack him up today and just watch him, while tied, to see if I can repeat the episode WITHOUT being on top of him.
There isn't some serious artery or vein I might have pinched off? I had the cinch close to the shoulder... of course I was *really* hoping that could be the case.
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New Member:
equestra
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 3:54 pm:
Hi everyone,
Well I got a huge dose of relief today - my vet (one of the most respected in Los Angeles) said that he has most definitely seen a too tight saddle / breastplate combo DrOp a horse- his *daughter* did this once! So the Rx is for mom to quit working out so damn much - I'm a former powerlifter / strongwoman. =)
Of course if this happens again, then something is up. But I'm SO relieved. I feel bad that I cut the circulation off to my new baby's poor brain, but we lived... and I learned quite a lesson!
More soon.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 22, 2009 - 6:25 pm:
Hello Robin,
Though I hate to contradict your veterinarian, and believe you may have misunderstood what he said, there is no physiological mechanism where a girth could cut off the blood to the brain no matter how tight you pull the girth. If such a event were possible it should have caused abnormal findings by the veterinarian who first examined the horse as the event was occurring.
Hmmm...is there something unusual about your breast plate that makes it ride up around the jugular furrow of the neck? All the breast collars I have seen keep the connecting lines over the shoulders.
If your veterinarian has made this statement Robin, I would be interested in the mechanism by which he believes this might happen.
DrO
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 8:31 pm:
Hi Robin,
I think you should really look at your breast collar. I was watching a program on RFDTv and Cameron, I can't remember the rest of his name talked about how improper fitted breast collars can cut off a horses air when their head is low and since it happened at rest I assume his head was down.
Cynthia
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New Member:
equestra
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 9:30 pm:
Hey y'all - yes after contemplation I believe it was the breast collar - that I'd just tried to fit right (and if memory serves well, tight) - and it was higher than normal.
We went on a ride today and did a lot of just standing around (with my new refitted gear), and my little Scout was just fine! I am so thrilled that he's ok...
I am watching him like a hawk and he's had no other symptoms or episodes. I've been so nervous I've been up 3-4 times per night to check on him. No narcoleptic behavior, no cuts or scrapes.
So yes I'll have to look for that breast collar video as I'm assuming that's exactly what I did by mistake. How embarrassing! =(
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:37 am:
Let's note carefully that a horse with his air cut off will display symptoms of extreme distress upwards to 30 seconds before passing out.
DrO
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:43 pm:
Could the breast collar being high and tight affect the blood flow to his brain? Could affect the vegus nerve?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:32 am:
Not easily Susie, see my post above asking about the possibility. But if the collar occludes both carotid arteries fainting after a few seconds of swooning could occur. These thick walled vessels lie very deep in the jugular furrow and protected by overlying muscle laterally and to some degree the trachea ventrally. I have never seen a medical report of this happening. We do a lot of mountain riding and often use breast collars. Looking at their designs I would have to say it strikes me as very unlikely as the ones we have ride considerably ventral to the carotids. Perhaps a picture of the horse tacked up would help answer the question.
DrO
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Member:
equestra
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 6:07 pm:
It makes sense that he would have shown signs of distress, but then again he was grazing... and that is the most important thing in his little keg shaped life! lol. After going over my tacking regime with a more experienced friend, it seems I'd had the plate RIGHT at the attachment between neck and chest... so the two times he had the freedom to put his head down for periods of time, kaboom.
A friend did take a photo that day, I'm going to see if she can email it to me. I doubt I could recreate that stupidity from the other day - at least I'm counting on that.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 11:54 pm:
Robin, do you have a breast collar that is a strap that crosses his chest or one that makes a "Y" on his chest with the bottom leg of the "Y" down between the front legs and attaching to the cinch? I suspect that the "grazing at the time" detail is significant.
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