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Discussion on Founder? Perhaps
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Member:
estrella
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 11:58 am:
Hi! I need some advice please. 17 year old Arabian mare. I have done alot of reading here. I have never been down this road. I will try to give the readers digest version.
Mare lame 3 weeks ago. Started right front, never did the front legs out, back legs under. No heat, no pulse, temp everything else normal. No reaction to hoof testers. Now moves to left front. Walking slow. Call vet..pivots turning with front. Diagnosis, mild founder. Suspect Cushings. She doesn't drink alot or urinate. Not long hair, but does have cresty neck. Changed from bute to 3 days of 1000 lbs banamine. Off banamine, does pretty bad. Now shoe boil (she is barefoot, I have her in boots) Also prescribed Isoxuprine 12 pills 2x a day for 14 days. Didn't see any improvement. Add antibotics for shoe boil because she had a 102.7 temp. It was hot and sore. Appetite decreased and didn't drink alot of water. Moving slow again in pain. i add back in bute, she feels much better, but not comfortable. Vet re-check. Now back feet sore. Bute for 2 days 2 grams. Isoxuprine back on then told to end the bute (after 2 days on Isoxuprine). She feels horrible on that stuff, without bute or banamine..quits eating/drinking. I took her off the Isoxuprine, back on 1 gram of bute. She feels much better. The vet doesn't want the pergolide started until testing is done. But does not recommend testing until after Feb. Does not want to give pergolide until testing done. Where to go from here? Seems to slide downward on Isoxuprine (I have read about Isoxuprine here) Is there a risk of pergolide if no cushings. So here's what I am looking for. Anyone had a similar experience? is pergolide safe without the test. Is Bute OK to give. Are we heading down the wrong path. Do I ask Dr O to fly out to sunny so california? oh yea, she got pudgy. She eats hardly anything, no alfalfa, no grain, just orchard grass. No pastures here.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 1:46 pm:
Estrella, Your horse doesn't sound like a typical cushings horse, but one never knows
I just started my gelding on pergolide without testing, but he is a very typical CD horse. I'm sure there are plenty of horses out there on pergolide that aren't really cushings, but it isn't a drug I would want to give if not necessary.
Your mare sounds as if she may be IR, and that can be tested for at anytime, and may be a good place to start. In the mean time put her in a stall with LOTS of bedding, cut down on as much sugar as you can...carrots, apples, grain...ect. and read the article in this header. Equine metabolic synDrOme is not the same as cushings, tho a horse can have both. With my IR horse getting his weight in normal range is about the only thing that keeps the founder away.
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Member:
estrella
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 2:19 pm:
Wow Diane, I took your advice and read the article. Sure seems more like the symptoms we are having. Thank you, Thank you! My vet is coming out again tomorrow, have to love this web site, now I am little bit more educated and now perhaps better dialog with the vet. Some mornings, she is feeling pretty frisky..I think goodie, a change in a positive direction. Next morning, she is back, but not as bad. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. To make matters worse, 105 degrees out. The weather is supposed to get cooler tomorrow. At least she will be more comfortable.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 27, 2009 - 4:41 pm:
It takes a horse awhile to recover from founder even if it is mild. Always remember that the bute can make them look and feel way better than they are, which in turn can make them do more damage to their hooves (been there done that). Keep her quiet while on bute, remove it 24 hrs. before the vet comes so he can give her a good evaluation. Bute can mask alot of pain and actually sometimes the horse won't even react to the hoof testers.
Read the articles on founder, they helped get my horse sound again, and I was able to be semi-educated on things to ask my vet and farrier. Hank and I just had a wonderful ride (bare foot) and he had 8 degrees rotation and a little sinking) 2 years ago
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 8:29 am:
Hello estrella,
To answer your direct questions, we cannot say what is safe medication for your horse or not without examining the horse. However we have articles on phenylbutazone in the medication section and on pergolide in the Cushings article where you can educate yourself so you can discuss this with your veterinarian.
I see from above you are starting to think this may be more of a Metabolic SynDrOme than Cushings disease but note that treatment of the primary founder is the same as described in the Founder overview article up until you decide this is Cushings disease at this point the addition of pergolide is the only effective treatment we know of.
DrO
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Member:
estrella
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 12:38 pm:
Thank you Dr. O!
The first time I had the vet out, they asked if I wanted the limited blood work test or the grande. I opted for the Grande. 45 vs 95. So I asked about the possibility of IR, she told me that was included in the test and she is in normal range. Last night she coliced. Mild colic at the time, but the vet said it would have probably been a whole lot worse in the AM. it has been 105+ out here. We watch her water consumption, give electro's. Appears it wasn't enough. Dry manure. Vet is going to start her on pergolide. This was interesting, last night I mentioned that she had coliced last year and we took her to the equine clinic. It was pretty bad. She made it through. She asked if it was the same time last year. I looked and yes it was. hmmmm Vet thinks she has chronic laminities going on, most likely from cushings. She also developed an abcess 1 1/2 weeks ago.
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Member:
estrella
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 12:51 pm:
Thank you Diane, I replied to Dr. O before this so please read. It sure is getting complicated. She seems to be falling apart. The colic last night pretty scary. I lost my beloved mare 2 years ago, she laid down in the same spot. That was horrible. She seems much better this morning. Everyday is a new adventure. I have read so much on this web site. Learned alot. I was really worried that it seemed to be taking so much time, I thought right after treatment we would be all better. I am glad your boy survived and is doing well. Gives me hope. Thank you!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 28, 2009 - 1:39 pm:
Estrella I don't know if you saw my thread on pergolide, but my arab gelding seemed to be foundering for no apparent reason. My vet told me if the founder is being caused by Cushings disease I should see results fairly quickly and boy did I After a week of pergolide he is back to normal. He has most all symptoms cushings horses get tho. He is also IR and his diet has to be monitored closely too. Once you figure it out it gets easier. I was able to not use pergolide for 7 years...BTW he was 17 when his symptoms started too. Colic was never one of them tho. I feel for you in that heat it is terribly hard on the older horses, we battle the cold more than the heat...had to turn my furnace on for the first time today
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 29, 2009 - 10:50 am:
I to do not find chronic colic likely to be directly caused by Cushings. If something about the Cushings leads the horse to eat irregularly or effects the dentition it may have some secondary effect.
DrO
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