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Discussion on Hoof breaking away after seedy toe *pics*
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 10, 2009 - 3:07 pm:
Hi Dr O,
sadly i am writing again about my warmblood horse - recently hes been doing really well with his treatment of Natural Balance shoes and navilox after being diagnosed with compression of P3.
Unforuntately, 4 weeks ago, at his last shoeing, the farrier noticed seedy toe under where the NB shoe goes at the toe, around a 3cm diameter hole. He packed this hole with an antibiotic putty which he believed would fix the problem, and did NOT shoe NB in front, only behind.
4 weeks on and i have noticed that his hooves seem to have broken on the inside aspect of the front feed - behind are fine. I am trying to figure out whether this has been caused by the seedy toe and it has in fact spread - OR wether it is because he has had 2 shoeings NB and one not NB.
i would love to hear your thoughts. He is not lame, but is still on bute every other day as per his rehabilitation regime.
 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 11, 2009 - 8:56 am:
Hello dxangel,
Going back and looking at the shoeing in June I sure prefer what was being done then that to what I see above. Can that shoe be as small and run under the hoof as it looks in the above photos.
As to the seedy toe and what it means I cannot be certain: is there normal appearing white line that is developing some focal areas of thrush or is the white line becoming distorted by being stretched wider? The above photos show areas where wall has broken out at and around the old nail holes. I wonder if the very close nail pattern in one small area of the toe is creating weakness. Besides answering the above questions, can you shoot me conformation shots of the front feet?
Conformation shots will ideally have 5 views with the horse standing square on a hard surface and have his head up. Every shot should frame the hoof(ves) and leg(s) up to mid cannon. Better is too be back as far as possible and use the optical telephoto to frame the shot as long as it does not introduce movement artifacts (blurring) into the photo. The light should be coming from behind the photographer who is kneeling. The five shots are:
1 and 2) Lateral aspect of both legs: position yourself directly off the side of the leg.
3 and 4) Frontal aspect of both legs: position yourself directly in front of the direction that the point of the toe of the leg is pointing. For instance if the toe points out you will not be directly in front of the horse but rotated somewhat outward to be directly in front of the direction the toe is pointing on.
5) Front of the horse: position yourself directly in front of the horse.
DrO
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 11, 2009 - 11:53 am:
Dr. O, thanks for asking about those shoes. I looked at the pictures and thought they looked so much too small and set so far in front of the heels but didn't want to post because I seem always to be complaining about farrier work!
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 14, 2009 - 1:15 pm:
Hi Dr O,
firstly, id like to apologise with the time it has taken to get these photos to you.
I hope these will suffice - unfortunately he is not brilliant at standing still or square, but we did our best.
The farrier, as i understand it, set a rolled shoe back underneath the hoof to simulate Natural Balance.
   
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 15, 2009 - 10:59 am:
Hello dxangel,
Unfortunately the angle of your photos foreshortens the hoof and hides the shoes. We need these shots taken with the camera closer to the ground and about half the apparent distance (or better is further back with some optical zoom so that the images of the foot are larger? Remember we only need a bit of the lower cannon to be sure the horse is standing square. Also having the light coming from behind you will greatly increase there readability. I know you have worked hard on these images and apologize for the details but it is hard to say much about what is in the photos above.
DrO
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 6:23 pm:
Hi Dr O,
Ive tried once again to get the pictures in the correct manner - i hope this suffices. i was on my hands and knees to take these shots - which was rather scary because he is a horse that doesnt stand still. ever.
these photos have been resized due to image requirements on this site - i am happy to upload or send you the larger images
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 9:09 am:
Much better at least for the feet imaged.
Going back to your original post you list as the problems breaking out on the inside quarter and seedy toe. When I look at the above images I think the problem is evident: there is significant distal flare of the hoof wall starting about 1/2 way down the wall. This flare stretches the white line and weakens the wall. The shoeing places the outside edge of the shoe inside the margin of the wall.
The shoeing may be contributing to the break out by not supporting the the wall. But the role of the shoes in this flare is complicated depending on whether the flare formed while shod this way or is he being shod this way because of the flare. It may be your shoers attempt at addressing it.
There is an old adage that the "feet will find the shoes". Or in other words you shoe where you want the walls to grow to. In fact there is some logic behind this thought. For instance in your above images by shoeing as they have above you unload the walls so they will not flare so badly. However the break out is probably due to weakening on the wall by the flare then pushed by the shoe.
I have never liked this theory much and prefer to shape the foot like I think it should be in an ideal world. But proponents of the above thoughts, Ric Redden is one I think of, would say yes but as you rasp those walls you weaken them. I concede that. Balancing the needed strength while shaping the wall to the proper shape is truly where the skill of the farrier comes in.
DrO
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:17 am:
"But the role of the shoes in this flare is complicated depending on whether the flare formed while shod this way or is he being shod this way because of the flare. It may be your shoers attempt at addressing it."
Ah, so i believe this is a 'chicken or egg' type situation. Interesting.
I too noticed the flare and wondered the same thing - however it seems to be a recent occurance as i have not seen any such flair with the previous shoeings.
The farrier believes the seedy toe has been caused by dirt getting under the NB shoe, and for that reason put a rolled shoe set back underneath the foot to provide the same support to the tip of PIII that the NB shoe was giving. However it does seem to have caused the hoof to flare out. He is due his next shoes on 29th of Oct and i will try to address it with him then.
My main concern is that he is meant to be coming off bute and navilox as soon as the ground softens some, and i am concerned that he will go lame again but i wont know if it is still the PIII issue or wether it is the seedy toe.
I am also concerned because i noticed yesterday he doesnt look 'right' while warming up, in front. There is no head nod, but he just doesnt seem even. Once hes warmed up hes 100% sound. I feel getting the vet out again would be a waste because i think the vet will only tell me to shoe him NB which the farrier doesnt want to do and i will find myself in a vicious circle again.
Ho hum.
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:21 am:
oh i should also say that there is worse seedy toe in at least one of the back feet - and some in the other back foot. Neither back foot is showing flare and they are shod NB.
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:24 am:
PPPS - and definitely Off-topic
you may also notice that this horse has 'wry nose' or 'deviation of the muzzle' but that it goes all the way up his face so its almost like he has 'two faces'. it doesnt seem to affect him in any way though other than having to have the bridle on different holes.
He also has an innocent grade 4/6 systolic heart murmur - no abnormalities detected on investigation though!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 - 6:26 am:
If you are dealing with small spots of thrush in the white line without the complication of a stretched white line check out, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Thrush it has recommendations for dealing with such white line infections.
DrO
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 - 6:45 am:
i have no idea what im dealing with - i guess i will know when he is next shod.
will try to update you.
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Member:
dxangel
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Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 7:14 pm:
hello, just to update you,
his feet are looking much better - the seedy toe is almost gone, and the flaring is due to a lack of clips when he was shod NB - he is back in NB-type shoes, but these ones have side clips. the farrier doesnt seem to worried.
fingers crossed as always!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 7:23 am:
Thanks for the update dxangel.
DrO
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