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Discussion on Could stiff mare equal pigeon fever?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 6:28 pm:
Hi Dr.O,
One of our mares has been very sore and stiff for about a week now. She has a previously laminitic foot (from a years ago bout of hemographica pupura) so I thought it was a flare up of her foot that was causing a relunctance to move, and called out the farrier. She's been wearing a protective pad and shoe on that foot. Farrier pulled the pad and couldn't find anything wrong with the foot; no sign of abcess, bruising or soreness.
I can't get her into our vet until the 27th unless it's an emergency. She has no fever. There is a pigeon fever in our area, with horses about 1/2 a mile away that have it. I felt her all over and can't find any swellings or odd bumps or sore spots. The farrier checked all four feet; and I've run my hands over her legs. Nothing that I can find. She is eating and drinking normally. The only symptom is a real relunctance to even move, especially in the morning. It gets a little bit better by afternoon, but she's still very stiff and sore acting and won't move a lot on her own. She isn't camped out at all. She just moves like it hurts her all over, very tenative and stiff. The only other odd thing is that she is working her mouth a lot; I don't know if that's related or not. I gave her 2 grams of bute this a.m., and it helped a little, but not a whole lot. Could pigeon fever present like this? Or, do you have any other good ideas about what this could be?
Thanks.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 9:54 am:
Hi Sara - so sorry to hear about your mare. I have no answers for you, but have been through pigeon fever with my mare, Moonlight. Yes - she was reluctant to move, but it was very obvious why. She had an abscess in her lower chest, right where her left front leg attaches. So, it was obviously very painful for her.
With no swellings anywhere on your mare, it certainly makes it difficult to figure out.
Good luck with finding out what ails her,
Lilo
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:04 am:
A deep abscess, particularly in the neck, can cause a generalized stiffness Susan but until a painful structure causing your symptoms is found we are all just guessing.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:26 am:
The mare is where she can go in and out at will, not shut in the barn at night. Last night I put a blanket on her and when I went out to feed this a.m. she seemed to be moving a lot better than she has been the past several mornings. I'm going to go back out and check her throughly in a little while. If being kept warmer seems to help her, I'll shut her in at night with a blanket on her. Would warmth helping be a sign of arthritis? Again, no swelling in joints that I can see or feel, but I'm wondering about in her shoulders or spine?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:34 am:
Weird Sara, you would think if it was arthritis the 2 grams of bute would have helped her more. My mare with arthritis does 100 times better when given banamine (don't know why) but bute doesn't seem to make much of a difference. A day or 2 of banamine and she is usually back to normal. Might be worth a try, although I would give it orally so a shot wouldn't make her stiffer.
These horses love a good mystery lately, normal owies are looking pretty good to me anymore at least they are reconizable
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 12:17 pm:
Diane, I know what you mean about "normal owies!" In my case I think the problem is that several of our horses area starting to get pretty old, so there are more age related problems. I may breed again just so I can have some young, healthy horses around! Of course, they're the ones that always get hurt!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 1:02 pm:
I was thinking of getting a "young one" again too, or at least young middle aged. My two old cronies aren't rideable anymore and Hank always has something wrong with him it seems....except in the winter when I can't ride HMMMMM. His fetlock ruined my whole summer season of riding. At least no founder this year anyway!! progress!
I wish Julie M were closer I always like her projects she gets.
If you figure this out be sure to let us know, I have old ones that will probably do something like this someday too.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 1:24 pm:
We turned her out in the field after her breakfast and she'd definetly moving a lot better than at this time of day yesterday, although still a little stiff. I'm going to try putting her in the barn tonight and see what difference, if any that makes.
Diane, btw, I know where there is a really pretty 2 yr. old Arab gelding. He's a rescue you could have for just a few hundred. He has even been started with Monty Roberts. I'm going over to pick up a rescue mare in mid-November, so could bring him at least as far as my place for you.  He's a very pretty light chestnut with flaxen mane and tail.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 1:57 pm:
OH Sara, he sounds nice, I love those flaxen manes and tails as much as palominos. Unfortunately all we have is an old cattle trailer that isn't reliable for long trips. Do you have any details of him? or know where I could see a pic or anything. Maybe Cyndys Walt might be going that way at sometime.
Off topic again
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 3:37 pm:
Sara, there is a "Stiff Horse" subtopic in the Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse that covers the most common reasons horse develop lameness characterized by a stiff appearance.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 9:00 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I've just reread the articles. Nothing really seems to fit, at least not with the wobblers in an older horse. She isn't uncoordinated when she moves. She is very relunctant to move, esp. in the early morning. She improves as the day goes on. If I was to guess I'd guess arthritis in the shoulders; but I don't know what would cause this. She has never been ridden, only been a broodmare.
What would you suggest for treatment until she can get into the vet? I gave her 2 gr. of bute the other day and didn't really see any difference. I only gave it to her the one time. Would it work better if I gave it to her several days in a row? I've turned her out during the day, would it be better to keep her in a stall, or a 20' x 20' sand pen?
Another question: her appointment is with our local vet. The only x-ray equipment he has is a portable. Do you think that would be enough to diagnose if it is her shoulders, or should I just make an appointment for her down at the clinic in Las Vegas where there is a stronger x-ray machine and also a large ultra sound unit?
I guess it's possible it's her front feet, but she has no heat, no strong pulse and isn't sensitive to a hoof tester on either front foot.
Thanks.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 6:55 am:
Sara,
Maybe old age is catching up to her. It happens to all of us, eventually.
Is the weather out there getting colder. I know you are close to Vegas, but I've been in Vegas in January, where it was 27 degrees and snowing. I am not sure what its like in October.
If you think the blanket helped her and you think its her shoulders. You might want to try a light mixture of Blue lotion( Like Bengay, only for horses) mixed with Glycerine to cut the strength. This will bring extra circulation to the area. You can adjust the strength of the blue lotion depending on how sensitive you think your mare is.
Here is another trick I use to loosen up muscles works on the entire body.
I give my horses a very warm bath and put two coolers on them and let them cool out by themselves, as soon as I remove the coolers, on goes the blanket. I know my aches and pains feel a lot better after I get out of a nice hot shower and crawl under a nice warm comforter. So why would it not work for a horse.
Back in the day, when I worked for a big time trainer in Florida. We used to cool out our horses very slowly, 2 coolers, 8-10 sips of water every 10 minutes and walked for at least an hour. I don't remember as many cases of tying up or sore muscles back then as I see today ( I do realize things have changed drastically)and I also realize you are dealing with an aging broodmare and not a racehorse, but sometimes simple things work just as well as more complicated things.
As far as the ultrasound and xrays go. I think that might be difficult with a portable machine, so hopefully you won't need to do that and the vet will be able to do an exam and guide you from there.
I wish you a lot of luck with your mare.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 8:21 am:
Sara, if necessary you can get a obliqued lateral of the shoulder joint with a little cooperation of the horse but most of the rest is obscured by the thorax but let's determine the cause first, then consider diagnostics. Acute onset bilateral shoulder arthritis would be considered a rarity.
Phenylbutazone is more effective when given over time but even if you just get a little help like you report I don't see anything wrong with helping a little. For more on treating lameness of unknown cause see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse. Certainly anything you can do to make the horse more comfortable is sensible.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:26 am:
Thanks, Rachelle and Dr.O. I'll put her back on a steady dose of bute for awhile and see how she does. I really like our local vet, but he is limited when it comes to diagnostic equipment. The first opening they had was in the afternoon, and so he won't be seeing her at her worst.
Our weather fluctuates wildly this time of year, which probably isn't helping her. Last night our lows were in the low 50's. Last week we were down to 17. Days are between low 70's and the high 40's.
When it's cold and windy I'm hesitant to get a horse wet unless I have to, but I will try the linement on her and see if that helps. Part of the problem is I can't pin down where the stiffness/soreness really is and neither could the farrier. From the way she moves, I'm guess anywhere from the mid-back forward, so kind of thinking shoulders. I'll try messaging them with the liniment for lack of a better place to start and see what happens. I didn't blanket her last night since she has a good hair coat and it was so warm. I will tonight as it's supposed to be cooler. I just wish I could get her into the vet sooner and that he could see her when she's really stiff. There still are no swellings anywhere or any other symptoms, so I'm assuming it isn't pigeon fever, which was my original concern.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 6:08 pm:
Good luck with this, Sara. Let us know how she does.
I'm seeing a bit of stiffness and arthritis in my oldest guy with the weather having just turned cooler and drier.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 2:16 pm:
Well, so much for my suspecians about her shoulders. Lonnie took the mare to her appointment while I was in Tulsa. She was given a through exam and x-rays were taken of her feet. She has abcesses in both front feet! I would never have guessed this from the way she was moving, especially given the fact Troy had used hoof testers on her with no reaction. The abcesses are high up from what I understand. She is on bute, in a deeply bedded stall, with feet medicated and wrapped. I just got home last night and won't be able to talk with the vet myself and look at her x-rays until Monday. I think it's weird that somedays she was so much better than other days. Seems like with high abcesses she'd be consistantly sore. I'll ask the vet his opinion on why/how she got them. I've got to talk to Troy today; he was going to try and get by the vet's yesterday to look at the x-rays and talk to doc about what, if anything, he can do with trimming/shoeing to help her. I'll keep you posted.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 2:42 pm:
HMMM Sara how strange is that bi-lateral abscesses. I didn't think abscesses were usually visible by x-ray. Hank had 2 "high abscesses" if you mean an abscess that has traveled and is going to break out the coronary band (gravel). We actually could see the track of one on the x-ray. He was on again off again lame with them for about a month until they came out the coronary band. Sometimes he hoof tested sore sometimes not. They followed a bout of laminitis with no rotation...was the beginning of "our hoof problems" Keep a good eye on hoof form with her, and watch for a stretched WL. Could be with her age she is becoming cushingoid?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 4:05 pm:
I haven't seen the x-rays, and won't be able to until Monday or Tuesday, so I don't know what the vet saw for sure, and don't know where the abcesses were, only that they were "high." That's the report I got from Lonnie and over the phone talking to the vet tech. 10 or so years ago this mare is one of the three that we think got into hoary alysium and had the 2nd worst reaction of the three. She developed laminitis in one foot and had swollen legs and has had reoccuring problems with the one foot. Not in the other front foot though. And, the way she was moving made me think she was just sore all over. She wasn't "camped out" or putting her weight towards the back. And, I suppose with her age Cushings is always possible, but she doesn't have any symptoms that would make me think so at this point.
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