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  Discussion on IR/EMS soaked hay experiment
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 12:33 pm:

Side experiment of https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/334719.html

So now I don't know if I think soaking hay to get rid of sugars works. I fed the horses early this morning their regular hay, put one leaf of the calfs hay in a muck bucket, filled it up with cold water at about 7am. went out around 9am dumped and rinsed the hay and re-filled with cold water. It makes me wonder about that mare I mentioned in the other thread, I soaked her hay and it didn't seem to do any good. Here are the results. I think my experiments are paying off, the boys are moving wonderfully!

coming in for dinner, there are five leafs of hay out there...the soaked one is in the middle of the top row, which Hank lands right on..I think he has a nose for sweet things! Notice how Sam goes from leaf to leaf to find the best one, that's usually what Hank does too, but that boy didn't move off the soaked leaf.
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20091018SoakingHayExperiment#5393971210160062738

Sam wandering leaf to leaf
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20091018SoakingHayExperiment#5393972113911624034

You can just see hank hopes Sam doesn't discover this good stuff
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20091018SoakingHayExperiment#5393972113911624034

OH but he does to Hanks dismay and he doesn't move either until it is completely gone
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20091018SoakingHayExperiment#5393973388955117170

The horses hay is on the right, the calves hay is on the left...LOOKS the same doesn't it?

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 12:53 pm:

Go AWAY this is mine!
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20091018SoakingHayExperiment#5393983660753241 730
Member:
klowe

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 3:18 pm:

And it was all the same hay, Diane?

I tried soaking per the vet, when Paint 1st became IR...I just couldn't handle it physically, or time wise, although I tried. Fortunately, Paint seems to be doing great in spite of me.

Kathy
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 3:37 pm:

Kathy no the soaked hay was a leaf from a cow bale that Hank fell in love with last night...guess I jump around too much

Here's what led me to this experiment
From my other experiment!

My forever teaching me IR horses, most definitely brought home the hay differences. Very interesting indeed!

Since hubby has been working dusk to dawn I have to feed the cows, too muddy out for round bales, so I had to go get a pick up load for them, it is from one of the suppliers I use for my horses, but didn't get any from him yet this year ( and don't think I will!)

I left one bale on for PIA the orphaned calf, this hay LOOKS just like what I'm feeding the horses, maybe a little coarser, it is 1st crop.

I gave PIA a half of leaf and left the other outside the gate by the horses hay. I threw the horses their night hay before giving them their "grain" they were eating peacefully at their leafs of hay. I decided to throw the calfs half of leaf over otherwise it would just blow away. Hank meandered slowly over to it, took a bite and boy did his eyes light up! I went in and got their "grain" which they love and they also get a third of a carrot each at night. Hank didn't want his "grain" and carrot the hay was BETTER!

He finally came in and ate with the other 2 leaving a handful of the hay, Sam got done first and discovered the Delicious hay and was scarffing it down as fast as he could. Hank came galloping out of the lean-to and fought him for it Both the boys finished it off quickly and went leaf to leaf of their night hay thinking maybe I had put some more out.

This hay had NO clover OR alfalfa. Obviously it was sweet as sugar tho to be chosen over "grain" and carrot! I guess testing hay for these IR types isn't a bad idea, tho my taste test works pretty well also!

Tomorrows experiment is soaking this sweet hay and seeing if they still prefer it over their regular stuff, that will tell me if soaking is really good enough to remove the sugars, I have read that sometimes it isn't depending on the horse and hay of course.

We have had multiple frost and a couple freezes, I have gotten brave and am letting the horse out all day for about a week now with no ill effects. Now working up to 24/7 bravery again...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 4:38 pm:

I guess my point is it would appear you can't always soak the sugar out and make it a "safe hay" for IR horses. The way I chose my horses hay this year was to get a bale from a couple different suppliers and chose the hay they liked the least...not scientific, but according to this experiment I chose well. They prefered the soaked sugary stuff to their regular hay...which looks almost identical to each other. Could be the way it was put up, when it was put up, ect. Both are 1st cutting hay...just different suppliers.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 6:44 pm:

My fat horses are sooo smart!
They are even backed by science!
https://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wsclam.htm
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 9:26 am:

Diane, you have way too many uncontrolled variables to draw such conclusions. Fortunately there is already research that specifically measured the changes with soaking which is why we make this recommendation giving specific techniques at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Forage (Spring and Fall Pasture) Associated Founder.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 5:51 pm:

Dr.O I'll never be scientific enough for you. After my experiment I did look around at latest research, and it does show if the hay starts out high enough in NSC's it may not be possible to get it down to a safe level for a horse that is already foundering OR very prone. OF course soaking is going to help lower it, but will it be enough for that particular horse/hay?

IOW a person with a foundering/prone to founder horse should not RELY on soaking to lower the NSC's enough to really help....it will depend on the hay and where it starts to begin with.

My little experiment was just to see if soaking would make a difference, I also gave it to them dry with their own hay they didn't move off the "calf hay" soaked or not. I KNOW my horses love the sweet stuff and that will be their 1st choice over anything. I wish I had the bucks to send a leaf of each hay to be tested, I would bet my bottom dollar(which isn't much!) the calfs hay is way higher in NSC's. My horses sweet tooth's don't lie often. Of course that's my horses and my experiences with them.
Member:
erika

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 - 2:07 pm:

Diane, according to Dr. Elinor Kellon, soaking for an hour removes about 30% of the sugars--pretty significant amount.

BTW, I use the same hay for all my horses, but I do notice that they all prefer the soaked hay to the unsoaked. Could be the novelty, as Dr. O says, but even Sugar who has been eating it for a while prefers it. Perhaps because soaking makes it softer and it's more pleasant to eat instead of scratchy stuff.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 - 8:36 am:

No argument from me, soaking hay helps and may be enough, but then again it may not for IR horses or those foundering or prone to. To get to the desired 10 ish% NSC's even after soaking 30% out you have to start with a hay that is already below 20% NSC's, any hay I have ever had tested years ago ran well above 20% NSC's. I have had laminitis in the winter. Now that I let the horses pick the hay I haven't I trust their sugar tooth.

I just am thinking now it is not wise for us to feel "safe" because we are soaking the hay, depending on where the NSC's are to begin with it still may not be enough. The mare I lost to founder was getting soaked hay, which was a new concept to me at the time and I thought it was safe for her, retrospect would have it I bet it wasn't as it made no difference...she was IR.
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 - 8:06 pm:

If you are having trouble finding hay that your horses can tolerate, here is a product I am told is very good for fragile IR horses: Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes.

You can google the company to find out who carries them in your area. Hope this helps.
Erika
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 - 9:04 pm:

I don't soak my hay Erika, it seems to be just fine for them, even free choice.

The calfs hay would not be fine for them in any amount IMHO because they liked it too well soaked or not.

I do feed them alfalfa/timothy pellets for their treats tho If they developed a clover pellet I bet that would be their favorite
Member:
erika

Posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 - 9:47 am:

Sorry, I guess I was confused as to the "why" of your experiment. I have read lots of posts about your horses getting sore feet often, so I assumed you were looking for ways to fend that off.

I do know that some people soak hay before testing if they are looking for low NSC. Seems that would be a good idea rather than testing it raw, if that were what one planned to feed.

Also, goes without saying that there are many causes of founder. Not always related to diet. But that's another thread, isn't it? LOL!
Erika
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