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Discussion on Help! Allergy?
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New Member:
adante
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 12:43 pm:
I am desperate need of help with my morgan horse, Dream. He is an 11 yr old stud who pretty much lived on pasture until 3 years ago when I purchased him. He is a show horse. I have both of his full brothers and neither of them have a similar condition.
In Sept of 2008 I noticed what looked like a couple of bug bites. I bathed him, and watched over a couple of days as the bumps progressed. They seemed to be spreading to his face. My assumption was because the skin is thin on the face, that is just where they were more prone to come out. I decided he was having an allergic reaction to something. (Had never in the previous 2 years I had owned him had an allergic reaction but knew an allergy could pop up any time.) I called the vet and had him come out and take a look. He figured the same, an allergic reaction, and put him on a steroid powder to be added to his feed. Within 24 hours the bumps were gone. I kept him on the powder for about 5 days to make sure all reactions were gone. Within 24 hours of taking him off of the meds, the symptoms returned, only fast. Not one or two bumps to start, by the next morning his face was covered, his eyes were swollen, and the bumps were seeping. I immediately put him back on the powder.
Every time I tried to wean him off of the powder the symptoms would return only more violent than the last time. I have 24 show horses so I am a creature of habit. Nothing had changed in his environment, his feed, nothing. But now I was trying anything. I changed him to straw for bedding...nothing. I moved him to a different barn...nothing. I changed his brand of grain, nothing. By winter and months of changing things, the weather had changed to cold and pretty much eliminated any air born source of allergen. Yet still, he had to stay on meds. I started taking him to a very highly esteemed equine clinic for tests. They took biopsies, ran blood work, etc... Everything came back normal except for "Inflamed tissue". He was tested for auto immune diseases, infections, bacteria, etc... This skin reaction had progressed to literally sacs of liquid hanging on him along with the seeping bumps, swollen eyes, his entire dermis swelling to extremes. I had to take him off meds before testing and the longest we could go was 3 days or he was a swollen, puss encrusted, blind, miserable boy. Like I said, every time I took him off meds it came back worse and within hours.
The vet gave up and decided even though it was the worst reaction he had ever seen, it had to be an allergy. We treated him with an antibiotic, kept him on his steroid, and waited for the results. Of course he came back with sensitivity to numerous things. Some being oats, timothy, and orchard grass. Pretty much the diet of every Ohio raised horse. I was just finishing up the antibiotic, and I want to add Dream did appear more alert, more energetic when on the antibiotic, when we got the allergy report. The vet seemed very comfortable with his problem being oats. I took him off of any feed that was oat based. No oats. I was amazed. We finished the antibiotic, took him off of oats, started weaning off the steroid and to my amazement no bumps, no swelling...nothing. This was in March 2009. A whole Summer, Fall, and Winter after the first onset of symptoms. Within a month I had him back in shape, back to work, his weight came back on, he looked like a million bucks.
For 3 months......He was fine. In June.......this year...... it returned. Started with a couple bumps on his shoulder. I prayed they were bug bites. By the next day they had doubled. By the 4th day he was covered. I put him back on the steroid. I called the vet clinic and they again reiterated that my horse has an allergy. Apparently he has developed another one or oats wasn't it or something. That all of his biopsies were clean and I have to figure out what it is he is allergic to.
He is so bad now that I have to inject the steroid, the powder no longer is enough to keep the swelling at bay. I have several theories that I want to run by someone who has dealt with similar issues. He is sick. Really sick. On the steroids his skin stays fairly bump free....but he is quiet and lethargic. He always eats. Never misses a meal. But he has no energy and is losing weight again, and miserable.
If I can not figure out what is causing this I am afraid I am going to have to consider putting him to sleep. I love this horse. He is absolutely my baby and I can't even imagine giving up. I do not have a lot of money as my husband was a victim of companies moving out of the country. We had a major life style change after 28 years of a steady income. I have spent thousands of dollars already and still have no answers. I am terrified this is something more than an allergy. If it is an allergy I am begging for the answer to what.
Below is a time line of the events and procedures tried and what meds he has been on. I am hoping somebody can look at this and have some idea or a different idea as to what is going on. I am really convinced this is not just an allergy. However, if it is something more severe I would think it would have killed him by now. I know I am keeping the symptoms at bay with meds but whatever is going on inside of him is still going on. Is there another test that can be run? I know there is an allergy test where the allergens are directly placed in the skin. Would this better narrow down our search? What is your opinion on dust mites? I have been washing his hay, to no avail.
September 2008 Small bumps. Bathed in antifungal shampoo. Bumps grew began seeping maple syrup looking goo.
Put on Dex Powder. !/2 packet twice a day. Every time tried to wean off the bumps came back worse.
Developed low grade fever. Started on antibiotics. (Assumed secondary infection of some kind)
October 2008 Took to Valley View Vet Clinic. Was a full blown disaster cuz I kept him off meds for 3 days. Vet administered Bute, Dex, ran CBC Profile, Punch Biopsies. Prescribed SMZ and Dex. 3 cc. On tongue. I was not a shot giver at the time.
All tests returned negative, inflamed tissue, etc... nothing. The blood profile showed Bilirubin down, Glucose down, Fibrinogen up. Vet seemed to think this was a;; explained away by his seeping sores.
Tried changing to straw for 2 months. Changed to alfalfa hay. Changed brand of feed. Moved to different barn. (I have 3) Nothing worked.
Took back to vet clinic. Losing weight. Lethargic.
Did allergy blood allergy test and put him on Noxcil and cont...Dex.
Took off all oat products because of allergy results. Put him back on tim. Alf. Hay. Weaned off Dex. And YAE.... no bumps. Thought oats must be the whole problem.
3 months clear.
June 2009. Returned bad. Tried everything we did last time. Antibiotics, Dex, changed hay, changed feed, did homopathic med regimen for 3 months, Outside stalls, inside stalls, washed hay, tried Cough Free because of a blog I seen on this sight, Tried no grain, tried alfalfa cubes, now trying pellets.
If Dream goes without Dex, which is now being given in shot form at least every other day and at least 4 cc...... within days he will be covered in bumps, eyes swollen, will have sacs of liquid hanging from arm pits, belly, genital area, his testicles swell, his entire dermis swells, glands swell, and yet...... he will still eat.
HELP!!!!!! 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 1:08 pm:
Yikes what a mess and a puzzle. I'm sure Dr.O. will straighten me out here, but what kind of de-worming schedule has he been on?
They have been doing some experimenting over on COTH and your horse kind of reminded me of it. Interesting to say the least, AND LONG. I hope Dr.O. don't mind me posting it here, but I have always wondered what he would think of it anyway, so here goes.... as I said LONG! and not scientific by any means
https://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=155469
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 2:12 pm:
Hi Cheryln, I don't know much about allergies in horses per se, but I have a dog (German Shorthaired Pointer) who developed a similar issue at the age of 9 about 9 months after I moved to a new location 25 miles away from the last one, but w/slightly different flora.
I am convinced he has a pollen allergy, based on the timing of the cycles of hives, etc. After the irrigation ditches close at the end of October (he loves to swim) he gets a lot worse, then gradually gets better. During his allergy season, which in NM seems to be spring/summer following rain and into late fall, it is only kept under control with cortisone tabs and antihistamines. Last year he was on the anithistamine year-round, and I am hoping to wean him of the steroid again in a few weeks.
For dogs, and I assume horses, there is a new med called Atopica, which theoretically is given for a couple of months at full dose and then gradually decreased as much as possible. It's an immune suppressant and is used in human transplant patients. I only know 1 person who has tried it on a dog, and even for a large dog it is, unfortunately, outrageously expensive at full dose- for my 55 pound boy, something like $200 a month.
Good luck.
Kathy
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 4:17 pm:
Cherylyn, welcome to HA and sorry it is under such dire circumstances. I hope you can find the answers you are looking for.
I read something recently about a horse (I believe in the UK) who was allergic to grass. Some googling around might turn it up. I mention it because you mentioned along with the oat sensitivity was reported allergy to timothy and orchard grass. Have you tried this horse on a no-hay no-grass diet yet?
I can't give recommendations on a specific diet but your vet or the articles here could probably get you started.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 4:19 pm:
Just found the article here:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1164067/She-says-neigh-hay-Meet-P andora--horse-thats-allergic-grass.html
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 6:59 pm:
Cherylyn, check out the article here, too. Don't wish to scare you, but I just thought there were some similarities:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5495.html
Good luck, hope you figure this out. As a suggestion, if you still think it is a food allergy, maybe try beet pulp instead of hay to see if it makes a difference. Only because I would imagine it would be very difficult to get "pure" hay of any particular species without other types sneaking in.
Very curious to hear what Dr. O says.
Erika
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 8:08 am:
Welcome Cherylyn,
I must say that nonseasonal progressive unexplained inflammatory episodes in the skin sure sounds like autoimmune disease. There are several different common types and potentially dozens of rare types, it just all depends which cells or tissues are attacked by the immune system and how the immune system chooses to attack. It can be difficult to diagnose. Exactly what tests were run for AI and what were the results. Was care taken that the horse was off the steroids for a month prior to the test being taken.
Until we can figure this out continued palliative medication will be necessary. Dexamethasone comes in a number of different concentrations, what does he say on your bottle? The hives and edema show a strong histamine type reaction so it may be possible to add an antihistamine to the regimen and lower the dose of steroid needed. Unfortunately many of the OTC equine antihistamine products are not effective. For more on this and to see our recommendations see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Antihistamine Use in Horses.
DrO
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New Member:
adante
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 12:34 pm:
Wow.... thank you everybody for your responses. gave me a lot to think about and of course a lot more to ask. First of all.... i Love this horse. He is my pride and joy. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and ideas.
I have some things to add to my previous discription of what is happening after reading some of your responses.
The worming thing. I have always alternated, made sure to get a tape plus twice a year etc... In Dream's case, when we started the homopathic meds I also did a rigorous worming recommended by my vet and pumped him with wormers. No need to get into the variations and dosings... you get the point.
Dr. O.. I did not not know there was 2 different preds. as in prednisolone and prednisone. We did try to control Dream's condition with one of those instead of Dex but to no avail. You have me wondering which one now though. I think it was the prednisolone but I will double check with my vet and ask him to be sure. Can you clarify the difference and why one would work better then the other.
To answer your question about Dream being off of Dex for a month prior to tests. This sounds crazy but Dr. O there is no way he can be off meds for a week. He gets sacks of fluid hanging off of him. His eyes swell shut. He has goo pouring out of bumps all over. He would die. It is bad. His legs swell upp like a draft horse, he is swollen from head to toe. No meds for a month is not an option. The pics I attached were of Dream 3 days off of meds.
The dex he is on says Vedco Dex 100ml, 2mg/ml. Is that what you needed to know or do you need the whole list from back of the bottle. Let me know.
I read the skin auto immune attachment. Scarry. The Bullous one, he has never had a bump one on his mouth, or the face. Only above the eyes, around the ears etc... not on face or mouth area. Never gone off of feed even when he was blind from swelling. The pemphigus one describes legs and corenet band symptoms and he has never had a bump on his legs. Nothing from shoulders down. Weird now that I think about it.
He gets them on side of face. Jaw line, jaw bone area, ear area, poll, neck, back, rib cage area. Some on top of rump and down along side tail. Never legs, front of the face or chest for that matter. Weird. Are we thinking circulation areas?
Dr. O, the med in the article called azathioprine...used with systemic glucocorticoids. Could you elaborate some on that whole treatment for me.
The whole grass allergy article and info. Thank you so much for that one. I have noticed that when Dream is on 2nd cutting he is bad. I changed hm to as pure alfalfa as I could fine and he was much better. I do not know what beet pulp is or where to get it so could someone help me out there. However, I did contact my hay supplier and my grain provider and we have decided to try alfalfa pellets and wheat straw for fiber. Dream was not thrilled with straw but he did eat it. Again, on the pretense that if we eliminate all hay product we might figure it out. Someone tell me if alfalfa pellets are really pure alfalfa? I am not against taking that out of his diet too. He might lose some weight but if it answers our questions it would be worth it. How long before you think I will know? Is this beet pulp more nutritional? What form does it come in? Bag feed?
Okay, I have flooded this blog with info. I will hang tight, get some answers to all of this I have just entered, check on that prednisolone question I have with my vet and see which Dream was on and go from there.
Please keep feeding me info. I am oopen to all suggestions. Dr. O should I take him somewhere and have him tested for those diseases specifically?
Again, thank you everybody. I am sitting her crying I am so overwhelmed with worry and so grateful for the help. I love this big bumpy mess of a horse. Cheri
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 2:05 pm:
Oh poor Cheri, poor horse! Hang in there, keep brainstorming, you might come up with the answer.
Beet pulp comes in bags. Your feed store should be able to get it for you, and they probably already carry it. It's actually quite cheap. You need to soak it before feeding, it will swell up a lot. It is used by a lot of horse owners as forage. It is the left over fibrous part of sugar beets after they extract the sugar. Don't know if it will help or not, but it could help you rule out some grasses.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 2:42 pm:
Cheri, I really feel for you. I'm sure you've already stopped using flysprays, shampoos, etc. on him? I've had horses that got serious hives from such things. Do you have flies or gnats in your area? I've known horses that had severe reactions to their bites. I'll be interested in your boy's progress. I hope you're able to figure this out.
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 6:13 pm:
Hi - Cheri - been there.......no fun!! Keep your mind open and keep exploring. Beet pulp is normally sold in a 50# bag. It comes either extruded pellets or shredded. The shredded usually has some molasses in it. The overall protein is about 8.4%, so it is certainly not something they will get "high" on. I personally prefer the extruded pellets. I would usually soak, depending on the temperature for 6-8 hours. I would not leave it out in 100 degree weather and just sit there to ferment or get rancid. I would keep it in the house during the winter so it would not freeze, and generally use "controlled" temperatures for it. I only had one horse over the years that hated it and simply would not eat it. It is generally a horse friendly product, fills up the tummy and they like it. You will need to start a list of things you have tried, and things you want to try. Note any effect, how long you tried it for, etc. You will wake up at 2:00 in the morning and write down something you forgot to try. My horse was HORRIBLE, and right now, we are under control, which is not a place I ever thought I would be again. You begin to take one day at a time, and I know you feel like you should be doing more. You should read all the articles on hives, etc, in this forum. They will also help you to keep suggestions to try in your mind. There will be something to help you - you need to find it. It will take time, and know others here have been through the same thing, with your exact feelings, and the hopelessness and helplessness of it is awful!! Good luck - and let us know!!!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 7:55 pm:
Many years ago I saw a program on allergic reactions in people where a thimble full of hamburger meat caused an arthritic reaction so severe that within minutes a set of normal looking hands became twisted and painful. The person had an allergy to red meat and this thimbleful of hamburger meat was part of finding out what the person could eat and drink without getting a reaction. The testing started out with a fast. The only thing the person could do was drink water. His system needed to be completely cleared of everything before they could slowly reintroduce different things and also to see if his arthritis symptoms got better ( which they did). They did time lapse photography to show the symptoms clearing and how quickly the symptoms returned once the offending allergen was introduced.
This reminds me of your horse and how quickly his reaction happens. Whatever this allergen is it may be in such a small amount you may not even know about it or it may be a combination of two different things. My step mom broke out in hives when she took aspirin with orange juice. She could drink OJ just fine and take aspirin with anything other than OJ and she was fine, but the combo was bad news.
I had a horse that was allergic to alfalfa, it affected his breathing. We did find that with allergy tests, it was the only thing he reacted to. The difference once we found it was amazing. He went from not finishing his racing and training miles, very labored breathing and almost collapsing to winning his first start back after the introduction of his alfalfa-less diet (less than a week later).
I have had horses break out in hives from a change in shampoo and from not rinsing off the shampoo completely.
I have even had a horse that was allergic to specific kinds of laundry detergent ( Now this one took me a while to figure out).
There is one more thing. Many hay growers use preservatives on their hay and some horses have problems with the preservatives. I would ask if there had been a change. Perhaps the hay he was getting from March to June had no preservatives and the hay after June ( and when he had his attack before) did. Actually, the preservatives seem to be a problem in horse vaccines as well ( did your horse have any shots around the time of his latest episode?
I wish you a lot of luck, I am just trying to give you some ideas that you may not have looked into.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 12:02 am:
In every other animal than the horse prednisone is changed to the active form of the drug by the liver, the horse does not process it.
Cherylyn the article on AI diseases presents a pretty complete picture of Azathioprine including how it is used and dosages, side effects, mechanism of action, availability...do you have a specific question?
As to testing for AI that would certainly be the ideal to try and establish a firm diagnosis but I do not think you can get a reliable test without keeping him off steroids for a period.
DrO
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New Member:
adante
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 10:41 pm:
Update: Well I tried taking Dream off of all hay products. I put him on the beet pulp and back on grow and win and threw him straw to eat for some ruffage. He looked at me like I was nuts. ha ha. He picked at the straw eventually.
The more I thought about it the more upset I got. I called the vet clinic back and talked to the vet in charge of Dream's case and we decided my best route was to bring him back to the clinic. I suggested Dream stay there for a change in environment and to help wean him off of the steroid while the vet could continue to use other meds to keep him comfortable.
The vet called me 4 days into taking him off of steroids and said he HAD to put him back on. He said he had never seen anything like it. Shocked and horrified at the same time. The oozing bumps were one thing, but he said he looked at him as he went by and one hour later he walked by and the horse's head had swelled so much he was afraid of him losing his airway. He immediately put him back on dex. I had warned him that 4-5 days was all he would go without it. Within 48 hours the bumps return. Within hours of the first bump there will be 80. He will continue to ooze and seep as the bumps grow more bumps on top of other bumps and then suddenly he will just blow up all over. Everything swells.
This vet said he has never seen anything come on so fast and so severe. He is now quite interested in Dream and what in the world is going on. He agrees Dr. O that although everything pointed to allergies and none of his previous tests sent up alarms for auto immune, after seeing this reaction to being off of steroids he is definitely alarmed.
However, as I have claimed, there is no way to take him off of them. He will die. The vet, Dr. Contini is a wonderful man, by the way. Very concerned and has a lot of compassion for what Dream and I have been going through together. He was also quite shocked that I have kept him as healthy and strong as I have managed to do through all of this. Of course, I kept him on steroids....
Dr. Contini has calls out all over the country he said trying to find help or a suggestion or something. He is also in contact with several labs trying to find a way to run biopsies and other tests with Dream on steroids and still be sure they are accurate. He doesn't know what it is, but he is sure it is bad.
I know it is bad. I know I am going to lose my big stud man because of whatever is going on. But we want to know why. Why is this happening. What is happening. And is there any way we can reverse it.
I will update again as soon as I hear anything. I am glad I am not crazy. He even sent the vet into shock... Again, if anybody has had a similar experience please share your story with me. This has been devestating and now my vet is even overwhelmed. He says that there are like 6 different bumps, noduals, etc... skin eruptions forms..... he has never seen a horse get all of them on top of each other, all at once. And sooooo fast.
Dream is back on steroids, we have no answers, but he is once again comfortable and thinks he is a perfectly happy, healthy, handsome man. That is the other thing....he does not act sick. He gets down and lethargic etc... when he gets bumps all over cuz they itch unmercifully and make him miserable, but he eats, drinks, high headed, alert, not sick. Just his skin. Everything is centered within his skin.
Again, I will update again with the next plan we come up with. Cross your fingers and pray for Dream. He is a beautiful guy and I miss him every day that he has not been here with me. Cheri
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 7:57 am:
Hello Cheri,
I am sorry to hear things have not improved. The facts as I understand them are rather simple and the conclusion, though serious, straight forward.
When the horse is on steroids he remains healthy, when off them he develops severe inflammatory reactions of the skin. This seems to happen no matter what the environment or the feed. There is only one disease that I know that conforms to these facts: an autoimmune disorder of the skin.
DrO
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 11:54 am:
My daughter has Crohn's. Her Doctors brought it under control with Prednisone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prednisone
Then they started treatment with Azathioprine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathioprine
They were not able to wean her off the Prednisone, because her symptoms returned.
They switched to Methotrexate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methotrexate
It was effective and allowed her to live without Prednisone.
Autoimmune disease is so very difficult. You have my sympathy. I hope you find an effective treatment. It may take some trial and error.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 4:37 pm:
A few decades ago my Mother was given an injection of Butazolidin (Bute) after sustaining a broken sternum in an automobile accident.
This seemed to trigger a cascade of extremely bad allergies resulting in hives and itching, which went on for years.
Things that she had never been allergic to (berries, tomatoes, for example) before caused hives and itching.
After a few years the situation calmed down but she still remains subject to outbreaks at times.
She is still very sensitive to shellfish and cannot wear any kind or amount of wool against her skin -- not even cashmere.
I also have a friend who routinely erupts in hives and has to take steroids for them, and once had a sales manager who could erupt in hives before our eyes during a short meeting if there was any stress or strife involved with the meeting.
I post this wondering whether there could have been an extreme triggering event for your horse, as there was in my Mother's case.
Also, stress of any kind, physical or mental, seems to exacerbate the problem in the human individuals who I know that are sensitive in this way.
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New Member:
adante
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Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 10:43 am:
Well it has been awhile again here. Dream stayed at the vet clinic for 33 days in a clean room. No change in outbreaks of bumps. So dust spores, bedding, wood are all eliminated as causes.
The skin biopsies, scrapings, blood, etc... all went to Ohio State University where they were analyzed by one of their experts and he came up with nothing. They were so perplexed they sent everything to a university in Florida to someone who specializes in auto immune and skin. He too, had no answers. They have all determined that Dream does not have an auto immune disorder, cancer, or anything else of fatal consequence. They are back to some form of allergy. Apparently to oxygen. lol
Okay so here are my next string of questions. I would welcome any input or advise and agreement or disagreement. I apologize if this gets long but I want to cover everything because it is the only way to get accurate input.
Here goes.... My gutt says antibiotics antibiotics antibiotics. Reason being, I have seen improvement in his moods and energy while on antibiotic. The antibiotic being perscribed to battle secondary infections that are arising from the seeping sores. The one time he cleared up for 3 months was after a 20 day dose of antibiotic. 10 days of SMZ and 10 of Naxcil. What if it isn't SECONDARY? What if it is the problem? I am referring to something like MERSA. An antibiotic resistant infection, bacteria, something? Reoccurs or gains its strength back every time it is triggered by something. Stress, allergic type reaction....whatever. Following my gutt, I have put him back on Naxcil and have 2 more different antibiotic waiting in the wings to hit him with ten days at a time. Going to go for a month and see what happens.
Next.... and Dr. O might be able to give me some insight on this. A friend of mine is BIG into homopathic medecines. To the point of being a nut case in my opinion. But, some of her points are worth looking into. She had a hair analysis done on Dream and we just got the results back. According to the tests Dream's metals are all thru the roof. Ex....and thru the roof I mean the high side is supposed to be 8 and his is 86. Some of the words she used were thallium, thorium, aluminum, arsenic, cadium, lead, nickle, and titinium. Have no idea to spell them. On the reverse side his copper, iodine, zinc were all bottom out LOW.
She quotes a homopathic expert named Lindsey McClain and has called her concerning Dream and they want to put him on a very expensive detox program. If this hair analysis is accurate and all these levels are off the chart... why wouldn't conventiional blood tests have showed this? If it is true wouldn't he be sick? As in very sick? Not just lumpy? Also... couldn't I buy some form of detox with all the ingredients as a supplement from say Valley Vet and not go thru $800 a month of hommopathic complete dietary regimen? If what he needs is to get some of these metals out of his system?
They say I can't buy from the retail sources because the contents of the product are not accurate, could just be powder with no benefits, cheaper means less, and her research is proven and accurate and the only way. I do not want to get into an argument but I feel this is being forced down my throat as my only option and I would really like to find another one. I feel this line of treatment would be yet another experiment and to be honest, I can't afford it.
I would be interested in other people's take on this and Dr. O... please give me your opinion on what this metal detox stuff is all about and if you think it holds merit.
Thanks again for everybody's help and I will return with more info when I have it. If I haven't been committed to a rubber room by then. Cheri
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 12:11 pm:
Cherlyn,
If you go into the room with the rubber walls, I'll be right in there with you. While I do listen to what everyone else has to say, I use their advice along with my knowledge and history of my own horses to make my horse related medical decisions.
IMHO, you have gone the veterinary route, done the tests, even put your horse in a clean room for 33 days with no results or any diagnosis. You have already spent tons of money without any answers.
First thought:
And before I say what I say here, I want to say that I am not a vet, but I am a very observant and analytical person. I am also speaking from experience and while this may not be a very popular opinion it is what I believe. There are certain horses that can never, ever be given any type of steroids because for some reason their bodies do not deal with them very well and their bodies' own natural response gets turned off and does not restart when the steroids are withdrawn, even if they are withdrawn at a very slow rate.
This is especially true with horses that have been on repetitive doses over a long period of time.
Second thought:
As far as the antibiotics are concerned, your gut may be telling you the truth and the fact that you had an abatement of the symptoms for a prolonged period of time after cessation of the antibiotics and the steroids, only to have a relapse a few months later leads me to think that either the source of the allergy was alleviated during those three months, the antibiotics were not given for a long enough period of time and the infection stayed dormant until some unrelated stressful event happened to set him off again.
I would try and find an antibiotic that you could keep him on for an extended period of time ( I have had excellent luck with just the SMZ pills and I have had horses on them for months at a time, I monitored for gastro-intestinal upset and diarrhea and never had a problem)
Third thought:
As far as the hair analysis and treatment. If you feel uncomfortable with the treatment they are describing or the results from the hair analysis seem suspect. I'd take another one and send it to a completely different lab and see what they came up with. I'd also like to know what the normal values for horses are. I would only proceed with treatment if there was nothing else to try first. The problem with detoxifying your horse is that it may cause more problems ( as stated in thought # 1).
I probably watch too many forensic shows on TV, but I'd ask if they can tell when these heavy metals showed up on the hair shaft and then try and figure out what in your horses environment could be causing these abnormal numbers. Another question from my forensic tv shows. Is any body jealous of you and could your horse intentionally being poisoned? Although, after 33 days in a clean room with no improvement, I find this hard to imagine unless the damage was done beforehand.
I wish you a lot of luck, this is not a good position to be in, especially when normal veterinary channels and treatments do not work.
Keep us up to date on the progress of Dream, hopefully your next post will have more positive news.
Rachelle
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Monday, Dec 21, 2009 - 12:20 pm:
Wow, Cheri, you have really been through it with your horse, haven't you. I have a couple of thoughts to share with you, along with my sympathy.
First, in my limited knowledge, I think antibiotics--at least some of them--have anti-inflamatory properties as well. This might explain why you see improvement on them. Or, I wonder if there is some sort of bacteria-produced endotoxin that the horse reacts to? I would be afraid of such long-term antibiotic use, though, because of risk of colitis and other complications.
Did you ever get Dream off the steroids long enough to test for AI? If not, I wonder if that could have skewed the results preventing an accurate diagnosis.
Hmm, the hair analysis...was he analyzed from a standpoint of "horse normal", not "human normal"? Important difference because normal for one species may not be normal for another, of course. Again, don't know much but I would be quite leery of chelation therapies--especially if he is already in poor health. it is very controversial, to say the least, and considering the expense, I would want to know a lot more about it before beginning the regimen.
Funny, but I was just wondering about your case last night and here is your post today! Maybe I should use my obvious psychic abilities to communicate with you horse! 
Thanks for the update. Will be interested in seeing what happens next. Best of luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 7:12 am:
Hello C.
In general if other horses who have been in the same environment as the effected horse are doing OK metal toxicosis seem odd: where did the horse get it and why are the other horses not effected? We often discuss hair analysis on these boards and often we find the reported levels that are supposed to be high within normal limits or of unknown consequence.
So the question becomes what were the metals levels in the hair analysis and what company did the analysis? Best is if we can see the original report.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 8:37 am:
Just curious, did any of the vets mention using ACTH to stimulate your horses adrenal gland during the weaning off of the steroids. When I had a similar problem that's what was recommended to me.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 - 4:57 pm:
What a odd recommendation you received rtrotter. Unless there was some specific information on low ACTH function how much would you know how much to give....and for how long? And if we assume the primary problem is a non-functioning anterior pituitary, and not a inability of the adrenal glands to respond to ACTH, the half life of ACTH is measured in minutes, and not many of them. So any ACTH supplementation will disappear within an hour. Though I have not priced it in awhile the last time I looked it was quite expensive. I do not know of any work to answer these questions particularly in the horse where there is a paucity of information. Most of what we think has to be drawn from work in humans and other species.
If there are symptoms of Addison's due to long term steroid administration withdrawal, upping the steroid and withdrawing slower would be the treatment of choice.
DrO
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New Member:
adante
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 12:08 pm:
Hello everybody. The holidays are past us and time to go back to reality. Hope everyone had a good Christmas. It is sooo cold here. Ohio. Single digits. Ouch.
Dream is doing okay. He is actually at 72 hours with no steroid which is a break thru. At the time he was on Nexcel. I almost had to wonder if the naxcel hadn't run out and I hadn't switched him to the next trial 10 day drug, if he would have stayed clean. My curiosity is kind of squashed anyway though because I could never afford to keep Dream on Naxcel for months. It is like $90 for 7 days.
We are now into the third drug. The first being Naxcel, the second was Tucrapin, and now he is on (shoot) something that is used a lot in lime disease cases. I went blank on the name. Next is SMZ and he will stay on that indefinitely.
I am still at 72 hours between shots but at 72 hours he has bumps. Not seeping, nasty welts, but definite bumps starting. Which I know only means a matter of hours and he will be a mess.
His feet are growing out and I am getting ready to put the shoes back on with some padding. He acts ouchy and sore. Not miserable. He will play and buck and trot and canter. He is definitely concerned though and yesterday I swear I saw him shifting from foot to foot like a foundered horse. I may have been paranoid though. I think if you stare at a horse long enough you can always find something to worry you. Especially in a case like Dream where he already has me a wreck with worry.
I am waiting for this single digit cold to ease up before I do anything too drastic. I get him out and walk him and if he wants to play I let him. When he is done I do not push him. He is definitely bright eyed and hungry non stop. He thinks he feels good. Looks bad.....lol
I have been reading everybody's advise and appreciate it all. I am trying this regimen of antibiotics to see where that takes me. I am also getting ready to tone his feed back down and get him back off of oats. His weight is back up and he is happy so I am going to go back to Milk Plus or maybe even some grow n win for awhile. Grow n win is just so expensive. Okay as a supplement but not as the actual filler food.
I am really shying away from taking his hay away. Just can't find anything he really thrives on. I tried the beet pulp stuff but he looked at me like I was nuts. Maybe if I do the grow and win and that he will thrive okay. I don't know.... I am just soooo weary. I want to find the perfect combo but I swear I have tried it all. I don't see the point in starving him when it doesn't seem to have any positive result.
Well keep the positive thoughts coming our way. I will keep you posted. I am still trying. The cold right now has me not wanting to change anything too much cuz the cold is enough stress on everybody without asking for more stress on their system. And mine. lol Cheri
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 4:43 pm:
Hello Cheri,
Thanks for the update, it is certainly an odd presentation. Would it be possible to look at the complete biopsy report, if infection were the cause there should have been some sign. And if infection were the cause steroids might cause a temporary improvement but the infection spread terribly do to its immunosuppresive effects. There are reported allergies to some staph metabolites in horses, usuall as a form of scratches.
DrO
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Member:
adante
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 12:48 am:
Hi Dr. O. What are metabolites? And do you mean he had a scratch and got an infection? My theory for the antibiotic regimen is because everytime he has biopsies done, they show a "secondary infection". Started making me wonder if possibly it isn't secondary. Plus he shows signs of improvement. I know Dr. Contini said he shyed away from the infection theory because he feels the infection would run a muck being we are not treating the infection at all. Steroids would not supress it. See, I think there may be something in the steroid that is. Plus he has been on antibiotics off and on cuz we put him on to fight off secondary infections after an outbreak and before we try changing something else in his diet or environment to make sure he starts with a clean slate.
Had him out today again and his energy level is definitely drastically improved. He could hardly wait for me to turn him out on the lunge line. He took off before I had the darned thing untangled. lol He wears down fast cuz he is out of shape and his feet hurt but that is expected.
I can check with Dr. Contini and ask him to send me the results of the biopsies. He is open to suggestions though so if you have an idea please let me know what it is and I can ask him. I can even give you his email address and you can knock heads together. This case has him stumped. As it does OSU and the University of Florida.
This horse is healthy. They can not find anything wrong physically. But he gets darned sick when he gets these outbreaks. The steroid holds them off fine. But man, we have tried taking off of everything that could be an allergen. HELP!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 7:09 am:
Metabolites in this context are the waste products left by the bacteria and the horses immune system reacts to. Scratches is the horseman's term for a pastern dermatitis.
Look forward to the biopsy info.
DrO
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 11:43 am:
Cheri, I believe it was stated above that this is not likely an allergic reaction, but I have to ask: did you ever try completely eliminating hay/grasses from his diet for a period of time? You mention that you don't really want to do that but I just keep thinking of a similar case was caused by grass allergies. Just curious if that has been ruled out.
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Member:
adante
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 1:19 am:
Been awhile again. I have Dream home now and the vets have basically given up. I have his weight back up after all of his outbreaks while at the vets. I guess I am back to trying to figure out what it is on my own. Right now Dream is getting a shot every 3rd day which is a slight improvement. Still have him on SMZ's right now. His mood is great and he is full of himself. His feet are tender but I am giving him a low dose of Bute every day so he plays and runs like normal. Now that I have his weight back up I am going to play with food again and yes, I am going to try taking him off of hay all together. I really worry about doing this but I hope he will like the beet pulp if I put enough molasses in it...lol. Have to give it a try though. I have heard from a couple of different vets that hay allergies usually come out in the form of breathing problems, not so much skin. Any thought on that theory? Is beet pulp enough to keep Dream happy and keep enough ruffage in his diet? He will still be getting his grain but I worry about colic..... any suggestions on how to make this a safe experiment would be appreciated. I will keep you posted. Wish me luck. Cheri
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 7:56 am:
Hello Cheri,
I think they are talking about hay allergies do to hay mold spore dust (a common allergy), not an allergy to the hay itself. Such allergies are exceedingly rare if they exist at all. If you are going to remove a horse from all hay I would recommend you consider one of the "complete feeds" based on beet pulp like Equine Senior and would probably not require supplemental grain feeding.
These feeds balance the deficiencies of the beet pulp.
DrO
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New Member:
lant
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 - 5:05 pm:
Hi I had to join this discussion as I am also going through a hive problem. It started in September went through October. No bumps in November then they came back Dec 25th. First episode he did not itch. This time he really itches. I have read everything I can on hives, allergies in horse etc. What I have discovered is that this problem is getting worse (more and more horses are experiencing hives) and really no solutions. My vet sent a blood sample to a Lab in SC results coming back that Hershey is allergic to a lot of things.
The only change for the first outbreak was new hay. Same for the second outbreak. Blood tests confirmed that he is allergic to grass hay, timothy, bermuda and orchard. However he was still eating a orchard/alfalfa mix without hives. Different feed store different supplier. I am now wondering if it is where it is grown, or if some growers are using chemicals on the hay that is creating hives for some horses.
Good news is that I have talked to at least four people in my area that have their horse on the shots and it is working. I am going that route and hopefully will begin this week if they are ready. I will keep everyone posted.
FYI Hershey will be two Feb 23rd. He is a rescue so we are not sure of his breeding. Looks like he could be Arabian at least 1/2. Other than the hives he is in great physical shape. Of the four people with horses on shots one is a friend that has two horses on shots, mother and daughter. The older mare has been on the shots for years with success.
I was always wondering about the hay as it happened with the hay change. I have since read about a case of hives back east that had the same problem her horse came down with hives when the stable changed the hay source. Same type of hay but it came from a different area and grower. I have also read stories about several horses at one barn coming down with hives after a hay change. My vet was sure it was bugs but his tests came back that he is more allergic to grasses and cedar. My neighbor has cedar trees that hang over the fence, oh joy!!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 5:40 am:
Hello Terri,
The problem here is the blood tests are of little value in identifying allergens. As you have discovered yourself the test often identifies allergies to things that the horse does not react to and less obvious is that it may miss true allergens.
DrO
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New Member:
lant
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 10:28 am:
Dr O sorry I was not clear. I know that many vets even my personal vet do not believe in the blood test. However, it is working for many horses with chronic hives. Yes my horse is able to eat orchard, however when it is mixed with the other grasses he breaks out in hives. The orchard grass that he is able to eat without a reaction comes from another grower in another state. Maybe there is something different about this orchard grass or maybe it is when the orchard is mixed with other grasses the combination is too much. My vet also does not believe that antihistamines work with horses. Yet Hershey is now off the Dex and is taking an antihistamine guess what it is working in controlling the hives. No more itching and the hives have nearly disappeared. I am certain this is the answer, not yet. The proof will be if he no longer breaks out in hives. I know my friends mare has been on the shots for years and no hives. She took her horse off once and after six months the hives came back. She is now back on the shots and she told me she will never take her off again. The idea is that after 3 years you can then discontinue the shots this may not be true for all horses. It is worth a try when nothing else seems to be working.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 24, 2010 - 6:12 pm:
Having treated many cases of chronic hives I can say that it is difficult to know why they started and then why they stop but they always do stop, as long as an autoimmune disease is not involved. But this will have little to do with the accuracy of these blood tests for allergens, it is clear that they lack specificity and sensitivity for true allergens. As to the efficacy of these shots you are talking about, I am not sure what the nature of these shots are Terri so don't know what to say about that.
Antihistimines alone can be effective in some cases and will reduce the amount of steroid needed in most cases but proper medications and dosages need to be used which we outline in the article above.
DrO
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Member:
adante
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 2:07 am:
Well this will be my final post. I am very sad to say that Dream past away on February 17th. My vet figures all the meds etc... took their toll. On Monday he was fine and even pretty playful. Tuesday night he broke into a terrible sweat with no other real symptoms. His heart rate was 130 and skipping beats. Of course we are not sure what was happening but with pain killer and muscle relaxer it came back down and he appeared tired but comfortable. 12 hours later he was back at it again. He was in obvious distress and my vet did not feel we had much time left before his heart just quit alll together. I did not want him to suffer in pain and made the choice to let him go. He was euthenized at 3 pm. My friends were here and I got to say my good byes. It was one of the worst days of my life. I have gotten so used to taking care of Dream and worrying about Dream and checking on Dream, and researching things in regards to Dream.... I have a huge hole in my heart and I miss him. I knew Dream was not going to be long for this world if we could not figure out what was causing his illness but this was a shock that I did not see coming. I will forever love you Dream...good night.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:14 am:
My deepest condolences C. Howard.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:18 am:
C. Howard. I am very sorry at your loss of Dream. From your posts, it's sounds as if you gave him the very best of care. I hope you find comfort in knowing that you did what you could to find a solution and in the end, you did what every loving owner should do - let him go with a minimum of suffering.
My sympathies~
Fran
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:21 am:
My condolences C. what a very sad ending, I'm so sorry for your loss. RIP Dream you join many good ones.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 9:54 am:
I want to add my sincere condolences, C. Howard. You tried your very best to help your horse, but in the end you had to make the hardest decision we horse owners have to make.
I am so very sorry,
Lilo
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 10:29 am:
What a sad outcome to your quest. As Diane says, many of us have been in your shoes, Cherylyn. Dream runs with lots of horses who have earned a place in our hearts. So sorry for your loss.
Erika
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 10:48 am:
Cherylyn, very sorry to hear about Dream. He could not have had a better owner.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 11:24 am:
You certainly worked very hard to give Dream the best of care.
Sometimes things don't work out the way that we wish despite our very best efforts.
I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss.
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New Member:
lant
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 1:11 pm:
Cherylyn I am so very sorry to hear of your loss. I do not have any words that would ever begin to help you. From your posts I do know that you did everything that you could have done for Dreamer and I believe that he knew you tried to help him. Only the passing of time will ease the emotional pain you now feel.
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Member:
lant
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 1:25 pm:
This post has been edited by DrO
Terri this is not the place to discuss the diagnosis and treatment of your horse, please start a new discussion.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 2:40 pm:
How very sad, C, and what a shock. I am so sorry.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 2:58 pm:
I'm so sorry. Like many on HA I've been following your posts regarding Dream. Poor boy, and poor you. My condolances.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 5:18 pm:
How very, very sad for you. My deepest sympathy.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 25, 2010 - 7:26 pm:
My deepest sympathies on the loss of your horse.
You tried and did everything you could. Will they be doing a necropsy on him to see what the actual cause of his illness was. I think all of us at HA would like to know, if not. God speed to Dream and blessings to you for helping him.
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 6:58 pm:
My condolences on your loss. You certainly tried everything humanly possible to cure him.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 27, 2010 - 1:00 am:
How awful for you and your dear Dream. So many of us here have endured the gut wrenching struggle, panic, and sleepless nights. We've slammed up against that ugly brick wall of realization.....maybe.....we've done all we can. Each time someone here goes through this...we all relive our own experiences and our hearts break for you. It's time for you to rest now, and heal. You've been through way too much.
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