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  Discussion on A pigeon fever question
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Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 12:29 am:

I was re-reading the pigeon fever article and have a question about how it is spread. When the article says flies spread the infection by getting on open wounds, I assume the infection then spreads through the blood stream throughout the body? Is it possible for a horse to get pigeon fever if the horses has no wounds? Can it be contracted if flies are around mucus membranes?

Thanks.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 11:14 am:

Hi Sara,

I have had two cases of pigeon fever at my place this year (so far), and the second case appeared long after we seemed to have lost our fly population, on a horse with no visible sores/wounds. Sooo, I'd say you can't rule out PF just because the horse has no open sores, or you haven't seen a fly.

PF has been everywhere in northern Colorado this year, and some of the presentations are not "typical." My second horse has a high chest abscess, with almost none of the low pectoral edema we associate with the "pigeon-ness" of the illness. Initially I thought she had been kicked in the pasture. I've heard rumors of horses with facial abscesses, but haven't seen one, and don't know if they confirmed PF or just guessed it.

I found with my second case that anti-inflammatories seemed to improve her comfort and reduce the swelling dramatically, if that helps.

- elk
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 12:30 pm:

Thanks,Liz. I got a call while I was away saying my old mare wasn't eating. I got home yesterday and she's just picking at her food. (She's done this before and I posted about it on HA) She's really DrOpping weight. I took her out and hand grazed her, was feeling her all over, and she has fluid buildup between her front legs, kind of in her "armpits." She has no fever. I have no idea if their is any realtion to the swelling and the not eating. Lonnie thinks she could get fluid from just standing around, but I've never seen fluid build up in that area from inactivity. I have the mare on 1/2 ML of Pergolide as vet here thinks she's Cushings, but didn't test her, just put her on the Pergolide saying it would help if she was. She does have a heavy coat, but never laminitis or other symptoms. She grazed for several hrs off and on. During the night she did eat a "soup" made from very wet beet pulp and eq. senior with some flax meal and vitamins and ate a little soaked fine stemmed grass hay. I'm thinking she might have something going on either with the Cushings and pergolide dosage and possibly something with her mouth/teeth (although no quidding or slobbering) and now am worried about possible Pigeon Fever too. There were quite a few cases in the valley this late summer. I have an appointment down at the clinic in Las Vegas for her tomorrow a.m. Hopefully, they'll be able to figure out her porblem(s).

Maybe I should put her on bute for today and her trip down tomorrow (a 2.5 hr. drive.) ??
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 1:56 pm:

Hi Sara,

Well, it's a pretty non-specific set of symptoms-- dependent edema in front, loss of appetite, depression. What are her vital signs?

It *could* be PF, but also many other things at this stage. It does sound like an exam is in order. I'd check with my vet about bute, since it may mask symptoms for the exam. Hope they figure it out and have some good guidance for you. Let us know how you and she get along.

- elk
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 2:08 pm:

Sara, sorry you are having more problems. You are sure getting your share of puzzles this year too.

Did your mare seem to get worse with the addition of pergolide? Hope your vets can figure it out, and it is nothing serious, let us know how it goes.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 9:26 pm:

Sara - I am sorry about your new troubles with the old mare. Hope you can figure it out quickly.
Good luck,
Lilo
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:13 pm:

Actually Sara we do not have the answer to your question. As the article states, how infection occurs remain conjectural. There are three possible scenarios that could account for what we see if we assume the insect transmission is the method and the only method of transmission:
1) A local infection occurs shortly after exposure.
2) The organism becomes dormant only to break out later.
3) The organism can travel by hematogenous route to elsewhere.

I have no reason to believe this is the only method of transmission. Concerning the use of the bute, it may help but without fever or pain in evidence it is not clearly indicated.
DrO
Member:
erika

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:03 pm:

Sara, I hesitate to conjecture on the Pigeon fever, but just thinking that Beau has not been feeling right for quite some time now, has she? Seems if it were PF she would have become acutely ill by now.

Don't you wish they could tell us how they feel? Tough to watch an old favorite suffer. Best wishes for improvement.
Erika
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:06 pm:

For sure this mare has Pigeon fever. All four legs were swollen and she has swelling between her front legs. No appetite. No fever and all vitals are good. This is the same mare I posted about on another thread, I think the title had to do with possible Cushings. Her appetite has been on and off and she's been really pickey for quite awhile. It's gotten worse over the last week and now she barely eats. To get her to eat at all, I'm hand grazing her on the lawn and she'll eat a bran mash with senior mixed in it. The last two days she won't eat her beet pulp at all, but would slurp the liquid up from it yesterday, but not last night or this a.m.

I had an appointment this morning to take her to the vet clinic in Las Vegas, which has several good vets and a lot more diagnostic equipment than we have available locally. However, our old dog had a stroke or something (not positive about what) and had to get him to the vet first thing so cancelled her appointment and hope to be able to take her in tomorrow. I think there is more going on than just the pigion fever.

I cold hosed the mare's legs and rubbed them down with liniment and gave her some bute at our local vet's suggestion. The swelling seems better this afternoon. If she is swollen again/still in the a.m. will it hurt her to trailer her for 2 hrs. to get to the clinic? Any good ideas on getting her to eat? She's lost quite a bit of weight. I think we can cope with the pigeon fever, but am very concerned about the not eating. Thanks.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:32 pm:

Sara I wonder if it would help to drizzle something sweet like molasses or applesauce on her feed or beet pulp heck even her hay. I even resorted to a little brown sugar once! I know mine aren't suppose to have sweets, but I HAD to do something, the horse actually ate with the brown sugar sprinkled on everything.

How are the rest of her vital signs? Is she drinking OK? Best wishes for a quick recovery and nothing serious.
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:34 pm:

Sorry to hear about Austin Sara, how is he doing? And you have so much experience with what Beau likes to eat it is hard to beat that, but if she likes handgrazing perhaps rasped carrots with something sweet might tempt her? Rasped apples and carrots were about my last resort from time to time..
Jos
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 10:55 pm:

Sara, quadrilateral swelling is really not very diagnostic for pigeon fever which is usually a local infection, this sounds more systemic but the possibilities are still many.

One possibility is many of the common viruses cause swelling from a primary or secondary immune mediated vasculitis. Inappetence is common and sometimes the fever short lived though keep checking as it may come and go. Congestive heart problems, kidney failure, are also on the list for the symptoms you describe. The horse needs a good exam for a diagnosis and proper treatment.
DrO
Member:
shirl

Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 11:37 pm:

Sara,

So sorry to hear of your new worries. Prayers coming your way.

Love, Shirley
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 12:38 am:

Thanks Dr.O. I had an appointment for her today but was unable to keep it, as I see I said above. The clinic called me today and I can bring her in tomorrow. Lonnie is going to take care of Austin so I can take Beau down to L.V. Although our mare that had P.F. yrs ago had no other swelling other than the lump on her chest, the tech at the clinic said her old horse that had P.F. got swollen legs and so had some of the other horses in the area. So, I jumped to the conclusion it was another indicator that Beau could have P.F.

Her legs looked almost normal by this evening, the swelling below her chest is still very soft and fluid filled feeling. She will eat the grass on the lawn, which she did for several hrs off and on, but turns up her nose at the pasture grass and any other feed. She can chew and eat horse cookies however, so I don't think her problem is her teeth. Still no sign of fever; membranes and eyes look good imo. Hopefully, we'll get some answers tomorrow.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 7:17 am:

Sara, just wanted to send along my best wishes for both Beau and your dog. I will keep my fingers crossed for both of them.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 10:51 am:

Sorry to hear about Beau and Austin, Sara. I hope you soon get some answers and solutions.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 11:00 am:

Hi Sara,

I hope she continues to improve, and that you get some helpful guidance from your vet soon.

Neither of my 2 PF cases (so far) this year presented with leg swelling or loss of appetite, but there are certainly variations among horses. If she's mending some on her own, that's good news regardless of the cause. Let us know how you do, and good luck!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 7:58 pm:

Hi Sara - I hope you get a definite diagnosis tomorrow and some effective treatment options. Sorry to hear about your dog.

All the best,
Lilo
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 12:42 am:

Dr.O is right, Beau doesn't have Pigeon Fever; I wish she did instead of what her condition really is. According to her blood work, it's a wonder she's alive and bright eyed; she probably is only because she's a rough old broad.

She has no ulcers, her teeth and mouth look like they belong to a much younger horse, she has no masses or tumors that could be detected, other than the pituitary one that causes the Cushings.
She does have a serious heart murmur.

Part of her blood work is as follows:

Beau Norm

Protein 4.9 5.6-8.0
AST(SGOT) 409 180 - 570
GGT 64 2 - 30
BUN 99 10 - 25
Creatinine 13.3 1.2 - 2.0
Phosphorus 1.0 2.0 - 5.6
Calcium 15.2 10.0 - 13.7
Potassium 6.2 3 - 5
Cholesterol 254 70 - 150
WBC 3.4 5.5 - 12.5
RBC 6.1 6.5 - 10.5
HGB 9.9 11.0 - 19.0
HCT 31 35 - 52
Lymphocytes 612 1500 - 5500

Other values were more or less normal. The plan is to try and keep her happy for a while longer, but I believe her days are very numbered. As soon as the light leaves her eyes and she becomes depressed, or she quits eating entirely, }I'll call our vet and have her put down.

Meanwhile, I let her graze a little until after dark and then gave her crimped oats with chopped apples and corn oil...just trying to get her to eat something, anything for as long as she will.


Austin layed on his bed all day with one or more of the cats keeping him company. Lonnie said he couldn't get him up. As soon as I came in and went over to him, he got up, followed me outside and tottered around after me. He also ate a little soft food for the first time since his incident. So, he's holding his own for the time being at least.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 12:43 am:

umm I meant "laid" of course. too tired to think straight.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 6:54 am:

Sara I'm so sorry about the diagnosis. I don't even know what to say.

Hugs to you and I hope Beau continues to be comfortable for a while.
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:14 am:

Sara, I'm very sorry to hear of Beau. I know she is particularly special to you. What was the diagnosis, other than poor bloodwork. Did I miss it? Is it indicative of a specific disease process or is it simply old age?

I hope the "tough old broad", as you called her, is able to enjoy life and your company for a while longer.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:45 am:

Sara I don't see a diagnosis in your post. She does appear to be in kidney failure, but it remains unclear why. The WBC count suggest viral infection but in very old horses there is often a chronic inflammatory kidney disease that had no symptoms associated with but slowly destroys the kidney an then active failure is precipitated by a normally nonfatal event like a minor infection.
DrO
Member:
erika

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:37 am:

Sara, I'm sorry you have both animal friends ailing. Sad times. You are all in my thoughts and hopes for more good quality days together.

Lucky, lucky horse and dog to be yours, as I know you have always provided them the best life any loved pet could have.
Erika
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 9:39 am:

Dr.O, I guess the diagnosis was kidney failure and liver problems which would lead to her not being able to process her food, other organ failure, etc. There was no mention of any kind of virus or infection and I was given no hope.Her temp was 100 degrees. I have been checking her temp, and she's been normal here at home. (I contributed the slight rise in temp to it's being in the mid-80's in L.V. and her long coat.) I don't recall him using the term "chronic inflammatory kidney disease" or anything like it. He just said that in a lot of these old horses they develop kidney problems and that looking at her blood work in March, Aug., and now, she was in an acute stage. He said you could hook her up to IVs and flush her system, but that it would be very short term help and that soon she'd be right back where she is now. He said that since she isn't eating much, she will get to the point where she won't eat at all or enough to prevent digestive system shut down problems.


Do you think there is anything I can do that will improve her condition and help balance her bloodwork? Do you think antibiotics would help her? Chasteberry? Othere supplements? Obviously, I'll do whatever I can for her, but was pretty much told all I could do is try and keep her happy as long as I can. The clinic I went to is the best I can get her to without a 10 hr. drive and such a long haul would be very difficult for her imo.

btw, when she goes into the field with the other horses, she stands and licks the mineral/salt block for a very long time. She's been getting MaxPlus vitamins as the suggestion of our local vet, plus a glucosimine/chonDrOitin supplement, rice bran, beet pulp, and senior feed up until she wouldn't eat any of it anymore. I'm headed out to see if she ate her oats last night. She's been getting .5ML of Pergolide also, but I'm going to up it to .75ML starting today.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 9:44 am:

Sara - so sorry to hear that Beau's blood work showed problems. Of course I don't understand what the numbers mean.

It is so hard for animal lovers to watch their trusted companions failing - we went through that with my daughter's beloved quarter horse.

Hugs,
Lilo
Member:
stek

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 10:53 am:

Sara,

When my old dog had kidney failure we did the kidney flush then put her on a very low protein diet and supplemented with B vitamins to help her appetite. She did pull through the acute attack, gained weight back and had about another month of good quality of life. Though honestly I think I did all that more because I wasn't ready to let her go than anything.

Big hugs to you all and just listen to what she says she wants to do, your tough old girl will probably make the decisions for you.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 1:42 pm:

Sara I'm so sorry. Do any and everything to keep her happy and comfortable and she'll let you know when it's time. Trust me on that one. The kindest thing we can do for our beloved horses is letting them pass when they say it's time.

Hugs and prayers,

Shirley
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 3:39 pm:

Beau and Austin are so fortunate to have your loving care, Sara.

And I am sure that they have brought you much happiness.

Wishing you all comfort, joy and peace in the days to come.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 6:39 pm:

Dr.O, do you think that upping the dosage of Pergolide from .5 to .75ml will help Beau? The vet suggested I do this, but I am wondering about her appetite as one of the possible side effects of pergolide is anorexia. Or, do you think her lack of appetite is due to the kidney problems alone?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:32 pm:

Thinking of you Sara. Sorry to hear about Beau.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 1:04 am:

Very sorry Sara, it seems many hearts are aching for you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:11 am:

Sara, your veterinarian is in a better position to make this call than I am. What was the reasoning for this change?
DrO
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:09 am:

So sorry to hear this sad news, Sara.

Hugs.
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