|
|
Discussion on Beginning Treatment of Sarcoids
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 2:33 pm:
I have read all the threads about sarcoids. I was hoping to find something on Cansema but there really is little here on that specific cream. I have ordered some of it and plan to try it on my mare. I have two mares actually with sarcoids.
The first is Biscuit. She is some sort of draft cross. She has the body of a haflinger but not their color. She has a round flat but bumpy plaque on her face. But she also has a crusty growth that gets oozy and bleeds on the base of her ear. We have not treated the flat plaque other than to try an anti fungal with no improvement but she has received injections of a chemotherapy drug 3 different times with no noticeable improvement. She has become somewhat head shy where the ear is concerned but not extremely so yet.
The second mare that has them is Candy, a haflinger. she originally had one on her chest area. It was treated with chemo injections - twice and fell off only to come back. Not only did it come back but she now has 5 or 6 of the same type sarcoids. They also get bloody and ooze.
We tried burnt lime with little effect though it did help "cap" the oozing properties somewhat. We also tried the toothpaste but did not do it twice per day. Still we saw little improvement. This was over the summer and I was trying to find a way to cap the oozing nature of the sores in case flies do transmit this awful affliction. I also have them pastured separately just in case. I know everything you read says they are not contagious but I have a personal opinion that it makes sense that oozing viral wounds could feasibly be transmitted to other horses and that perhaps it is only those with challenged immune systems that are adversely affected. I don't really know the truth of it but I did not want to risk it in fly season. I would be interested to know if anyone is aware of any progress on a vaccine for sarcoids. It's a miserable problem to deal with and I feel like my horses are lepers. Friends are afraid their horses will catch it from mine!
I read a testimonial with successive pictures from someone who used Cansema successfully. I ordered some based on her testimonial and an email conversation. I figured it probably can't hurt to try it and it's cheaper than what I've tried so far. I am starting this thread to record my progress and pray I have good results on both my girls. My pictures of Candy are not very good. I hope to get more before I start the actual treatment and I will post them when I do. I am still waiting for the cream to arrive but it should be any day now. Here are the pics:
 
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Hello Robyn,
The problem with your horse's being infectious is multifaceted but nothing is known for sure. We don't find these oozing lesions containing infective viral particles, we instead find evidence of parts of the virus within the tissues. It is possible that while the virus "does something" to take over the cell's machinery it may not complete essential steps to make it contagious to other horses. And we are just beginning to recognize that there are some horses carrying evidence of infection that don't get the disease. So there is probably an immune function to the development of sarcoids.
It is also a frequent and wide spread observation that sarcoids on horses are not associated with sarcoids developing in others unless their is a common exposure to cattle.
That said I do not know anything about Cansema other than what I read on the www and I disagree with your assessment it cannot hurt to try it. It is a commonly found characteristic that unsuccessful treatment makes further treatment harder. There are two possible explanations for this observation: they were resistant in the first place or the treatment itself makes them tougher. Because of this I would recommend you take your best shot first.
DrO
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 6:29 pm:
Thanks for the input and the new information Dr. O! I did not know there were no active virus particles in the lesions. I had read a couple of different articles that said there was a correlation between fly season and outbreaks and assumed they carried it. We had a hard time keeping the flies off the sores this summer. Most things just slide right off the open wounds. The lime worked best for keeping them somewhat covered though that also wore off after a little time.
The reason I want to try this treatment is our vet does not want to remove the sarcoid. I agree too based on all I've read, that can really cause it to go into high gear. He did say he would leave us the supplies and we could give her the chemo injections every so often for a period of time but honestly, I do not think we would be able to give her the first shot ourselves and having the vet out to do it each time would be cost prohibitive. I am sure she would become a lot for him to handle after the first couple of shots too.
I suppose I could learn to twitch but I really hate the thoughts of that. I know from an intellectual standpoint it is not as bad as it seems on an emotional level but it is still not a path I'd like to trod unless there are no other options.
I have also read testimonials where this stuff has worked really well, written by people not selling it so they seem to be at least impartial to some degree. If it is permissible, I can post a link to the story of a particular donkey that includes pictures as the lesion changed over time with this treatment.
I know it's not THE best way to go but I am hoping that we are one of the lucky ones that the salve actually helps. I have come across so many stories with no pictorial evidence and I am a bit of a skeptic. So whether it works or doesn't, I wanted the story and pictures to be here for others to reference in the future.
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 7:40 pm:
Robyn,
You haven't mentioned considering cryotherapy (freezing). Have you talked to your vet about it? Our gelding Yogi had a large sarcoid on the side of his withers - about 3" diameter. One vet recommended a salve, can't remember the name, but neglected to tell me that once you start you could set it off worse and have to stay up with it. Our regular vet used cryotherapy 3 times and it never came back. I have documented it with pictures if you are interested.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 11:11 pm:
Robyn, I did not say there are no infective viruses just that this has not been found. There certainly are infectious particles in cow warts however and flies probably figure prominently in transmission, but this is all covered in the article as are a number of treatment options.
DrO
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 3:42 pm:
Dr.O we do have one cow that has warts. That particular cow is going to the next sale just in case. Can the other cows be carriers if they do not show evidence of the warts themselves? Also, the haflinger mare Candy absolutely loves the cattle. She almost let a lost baby calf try to nurse! That is likely how she got this I think. The other horse - Biscuit - had the one on the side of her face when we got her but not the one on her ear. So far she doesn't have any others.
Kathleen, I believe I did see your thread but please post the links just in case I am thinking of a different one. Our vet did not recommend freezing or removing surgically, only the chemo shots. But I will try to investigate the freeze option more thoroughly in the coming days beginning with your thread. Thanks.
Robyn
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 4:01 pm:
Robyn, my arab gelding Sam had a sarcoid on his ear, almost exactly where your horses is. We did not treat it, he was kind of cranky when it came to bridling, we were just extra careful not to hit it.
He had that sarcoid for a couple of years, then it slowly went away.
My horses are also kept by cattle, Sam had those weird growths on his penis and I asked my vet if he thought it was possible it was sarcoids. I don't know if this is true, but he said once horses are exposed to it they usually develop an immunity and he doubted at Sam's age that was the problem since over time he had been exposed so much.(and it wasn't) Other than the one sarcoid on his ear(20yrs. ago) I have never had a problem with them and my horses are a fence line away from the cattle. BPV is also fairly self limiting in cattle, and normally disappears over the winter.
Your horses are beautiful!
|
Member:
kathleen
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 6:41 pm:
Robyn,
Here is the link to the discussion with the pics of Yogi's sarcoid:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/76055.html
That was right after the first treatment (don't think I have any 'before' pics). There were three in all. I have a series of pics of the whole process from 1st treatment to 3rd and then till it healed.
No matter what you try, do not stop treatment (even if you decide to change treatment type) until the sarcoid is gone..dead. It will come back with a vengeance. It's almost like you make it mad. If you want any more info from me, I think my email is in my profile.
Kathleen
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:40 am:
Diane, I'm glad you have not been plagued by those sarcoids. It seems the haflinger's areas are getting better and growing hair back in some of the places she had them except for the one on her leg. Biscuit's however was bleeding some yesterday like she had rubbed it on something. We also share fence lines with the cattle but we have an odd shape to our land so that they are not as exposed as they could be I suppose. Still it's worrisome. Looks like the creme came in the mail yesterday and will be delivered today! Thanks for the compliments on my horses. They are pretty good girls, the both of them.
Kathleen, thanks for the link! I don't have time now as I am off to work but I plan to check it out fully this afternoon and thanks for the advice and offer of more info! With luck, I will be able to start treatment by the weekend.
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 8:15 am:
I got the cream in the mail with no instructions. I found them online but am a little annoyed that they were not shipped with them. I got more recent pictures of the sarcoids. Candy has only one left on her leg and it is not oozing. Biscuit on the other hand has seen a marked increase in the size and in addition it has broken open and began oozing again. I am not certain whether the friend we had who wanted to ride her broke it open when bridling or if it broke on it's own.
The directions do say to remove the old cansema after 24 hours and re-apply but I'm not certain that is practical. Any thoughts? Here are the pictures. Biscuit first since she is the worst. One thing to note the size increase and the bloody appearance is a recent event. Also, we have had very warm days here - 60's so the flies are out in numbers. They look disgusting I know. We are not going to treat the flat one on the side of her face at this time. The amount of cream is very small and we want to have enough to do both horses if possible. We will order more if it works on these two. Wish us luck!
And now Candy:
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 6:16 pm:
Good Luck Robyn, keep us appraised.
DrO
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 7:38 am:
Well I have sort of chickened out trying the salve on Biscuit. It's such a big area and when I read the directions they only want you to use it on a small area. Then I realized how close we are to Thanksgiving. We have a trip planned and will be gone a week. It is not something I would ask caretakers of my animals to do.
So my new plan is to wait on the salve treatment until after the holiday and then try it on the small sarcoid on Candy's leg. In the meantime, I am going to take Biscuit to a different vet and see if they can freeze her sarcoid off first. Maybe if they can and it starts to come back, then I can use the salve.
Of interest to the subject; I was made aware of a website with horror stories where people have used cansema on themselves with disastrous results. It has powerful corrosive effects and really should be used with a lot of caution in my opinion. I have always approached its use with caution. Now I'm really glad I did.
One last observation. It seems a lot of the ill effects coming from the use of this product stems from infection. I think being extra diligent in preventing infection will increase the chance of success. I will keep everyone posted on both Candy and Biscuit and thanks again for the support!
Robyn
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 9:13 pm:
Biscuit had her sarcoid frozen off today. It had developed a foul odor and I was worried about infection. The vet said it was the scab and parts that had fallen and stuck around it that were causing the smell. It took the better part of 3 hours on and off to get it all frozen off. He sent part of the mass off to be sure it is not malignant. He said we'd probably have to repeat in 4 to 6 weeks. There was also apparently a smaller one nearby that he also froze off. Keep your fingers crossed and thanks again everyone for sharing your experiences and for the advice!! Here are the after pictures. She is on stall rest for a few days but hopefully will be fine. I really hope this will wipe it out for good!
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 17, 2009 - 7:53 am:
Thanks for the update Robyn,
DrO
|
Member:
frances
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 17, 2009 - 9:29 am:
Good luck, Robyn. Hope that's the last you see of it - let us know how it goes!
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 6:32 pm:
I wanted to update my thread. We have still not tried the cansema on the haflinger mare. She actually ripped the one on her leg completely off! But she is getting the spots back that she had last year. They stayed hairless and are small. We may try the Cansema, we have not decided yet.
Biscuit has responded very well to the Cryo therapy. Her sarcoid on the ear was frozen off twice now and our vet says it may need to be done another time or two but it looks to be healing and making scar tissue. Here's a recent picture from a trail ride from April 18th this year. We have not done anything about the plaque on the side of her face. I'm unsure of the best way to treat it. It's mostly flat with some small upraised nodules. I don't really want to use the acid type treatment. Any suggestions? Would cryo be as effective or doable with a more flat lesion?
 ,
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 7:13 am:
I think cryo might be a bit tougher on such a large lesion but certainly doable. Also consider the topical and infiltrative therapies described in the article and I would consider this more like the verucous form but that is just a guess.
DrO
|
Member:
xl47
|
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 9:59 am:
Thanks Dr. O! I'll update maybe this fall sometime. So far we haven't treated it with anything and the bad one at the ear is seemingly gone.
My husband tried some sort of home remedy a neighbor recommended - burnt oil- on Candy, the haflinger. He said it is working but I have not looked at it. I will try to report back whether or not I feel it worked ;o)
Robyn
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 4:15 pm:
Thanks for the update, Robyn.
Good luck with finally beating this stuff.
|
Member:
heidim
|
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 2:35 pm:
I wrote about our newer gelding's sarcoids on his ear last fall. My vet came out and suggested we leave both alone, as neither are in obtrusive locations, and wait to see if they go away on their own. He said that some horses can develop an immunity if that does indeed happen. As mentioned earlier, he also pointed out that failed treatment can send the problem into overdrive. Ironically, the smaller sarcoid dried up and fell off shortly after his visit. The larger one does bleed from time to time, but the vet said only to do what we can to keep the flies off. I'm planning on using a roll-on repellent that can be applied near wounds. I realize this doesn't relate exactly to the originally posted problem because those sarcoids are in troublesome locations. Since others read these post for information, though, I thought I'd pass this along. As unsightly as Hugo's sarcoid is, it seems better to begin with the path of least resistance in his case and wait to see if the problem corrects itself, especially since this post contains a similar success story.
|
Member:
jones
|
Posted on Thursday, Jun 9, 2011 - 5:03 pm:
My girlfriend had her horse's sarcoids frozen off a year ago and the vet recommended she put the mare on APF to keep them from coming back. So far so good.
The APF website has quite a few "testimonials" regarding sarcoids on it but seems to be used quite a bit for IR horses.
APF has Eleutherococcus senticosus (Siberian Ginseng) as the first ingredient which is supposed to help immune function
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2963645
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Jun 11, 2011 - 3:22 pm:
Hello jones,
Though the above Pubmed study is certainly interesting it is not good evidence of APF efficacy for Sarcoid prevention or treatment of IR. I do not know of any well conducted studies on this product.
DrO
|
|
|
