|
|
Discussion on Sucralfate - treatment duration
|
| Author |
Message |
New Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 1:17 pm:
Hi Dr. Oglesby (et al.),
I am new to the site so hope I posted this correctly.
My vet and I are currently attempting to determine what is causing gastric discomfort and associated mild diarrhea in my 6 year old warmblood gelding. We are a long way from a major vet clinic such that we are trying different treatments as an aid in diagnosing him.
I cannot seem to find any information on this site with respect to the use of sucralfate in treating colonic ulcers. I was wondering what the recommended treatment duration was and how fast one would expect to see an effect.
Thanks
Lynn
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 5:38 pm:
Hi Lynn, welcome to the board!
I have used sucralfate in the treatment of gastric ulcers but am not familiar with colonic ulcers. How are they diagnosed?
When I used it for gastric ulcers it was used in conjunction with cimetadine (tagamet). Course of treatment was generally dependent on the severity of the ulcers, with 1 month being the short end before any healing was seen in mild cases, and 6 months or longer in more severe and/or chronic cases.
That was several years ago, and I've since read that it is not considered to be that effective. I believe there are better drugs on the market today.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 11:37 pm:
We use to have information on sucralfate until the preponderance of experimental information did not find a beneficial effect in either adults or foal gastric ulcers. For more effective treatment see the article on Adult Gastric Ulcers.
DrO
|
New Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 7:29 am:
Hi Dr. O (and Shannon),
Thanks for the information. He is concurrently on the generic version of omeprazole also. I realize that it may not be as effective as the Gastrogard but without a scope this seems to be a reasonable starting point.
Shannon, we were getting no response from the omeprazole and he is not in any distress when eating (OK, he might be a bit of a pig), so we thought the problem might be further back. Whether colonic ulcers due to low ph or other causes such as old parasite damage, it seemed like a reasonable idea. We didn't get any reaction from the sucralfate after 5 days. My vet mentioned that she generally sees a quick improvement in diarrhea and discomfort with this drug.
Thanks again
Lynn
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 12:47 pm:
Hi Lynne,
Welcome to HA. I remember doing some research on the difference between gastric and colonic ulcers and if I remember correctly, the treatment is different from a management point of view.
For gastric ulcers feeding small meals that coats the stomach and keeps the stomach acid down works, but for colonic ulcers the colon needs to rest, so fewer meals are better, so that it is not constantly working and making the horse pass manure.
A while back I started using Triple Crown Safe Starch forage and within 3 days, my horses were pooping normally. This was unusual since my race mare used to poop 12 times within an hour of coming in.
For the past 3 months she has been very normal even on race days when she would get very nervous and have very loose manure. To the point where she does not pass manure in the trailer going to and from the racetrack.
Her total amount of Forage and concentrate is about 20 lbs a day ( 12 forage and 8 concentrate) that she gets in two equally split meals 12 hours apart.
I stopped feeding her regular hay altogether and she seems to be doing fine with just the roughage.
I never had any luck with Gastrogard/Ulcergard, found it way too expensive and found that managing the environment ( what and when they eat) was a lot more successful then anything else I tried.
Rachelle
|
New Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 3, 2009 - 1:18 pm:
Thanks Rachelle,
I am hoping to avoid making any dramatic changes to his living conditions. I board him at a great little stable directly across from a major training barn. He is out all day with 3 other geldings and a round bale of hay (and lots of water). He is in at night and gets a little pelleted feed mix and hay in there for both morning and evening feeding (with water and a salt lick). I have only had him for a year and in his previous life he lived outside with a group of young horses and broodmares. So...isolating him all day in the barn would probably be very stressful to him. However, I do agree that changing the forage seems like a reasonable thing to try, and I might very well end up there at some point.
Thanks
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 8:23 am:
LynnL what generic form of omeprazole are you using?
DrO
|
New Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 9:05 am:
Hi Dr. O (OK, I feel a little silly using this short form),
Let me start by saying I am very impressed with this site. The amount of high quality of information is refreshing and the postings are generally well managed. As a biologist I am often frustrated by the staggering array of "stuff" that people feed their horses, and suggest I feed mine.
And back to the point: I have no information on the generic omeprazole we are using. It just comes in a little white bottle with a vet sticker on it with dosage info. I will send a quick note to my vet and see what further info she can provide.
When I get a little spare time I will dig up all our feed info and post a detailed description of my horse's symptoms. Doesn't make much sense to do it half way. Would you suggest I continue it here or move it to someplace more appropriate. As the major symptoms are abdominal or intestinal discomfort with increased defecation it might be better under the diarrhea postings? Any preference?
thanks again
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 9:12 am:
Hello LynnL,
I am skeptical about the efficacy of such a compounded product, the article on ulcers explains why.
I would continue the discussion here so we don't loose this background.
DrO
|
New Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 10:04 am:
Dear Dr. O (and company),
I have attached a detailed description of my horse's abdominal discomfort symptoms as well as a ton of info that might be pertinent. Sorry for the length of it. Note there is also an attachment(.jpg)that I hope came in properly. Any help you could offer would be much appreciated.
Lynn
Peety – abdominal or intestinal discomfort under saddle
Horse description:
• 16.1 h, warmblood gelding (~3/4 hannovarian)
• ~ 1100 lbs
• Born May 3, 2003
• Purchased and trailered 7 hours to new home on July 27/08
• Shinny, with good coat, very friendly and alert
• Easy keeper with good weight (maybe a little heavy, typical of show hunters)
• Very laid-back willing young horse
Location:
• Horse currently resides in Northern Ontario (~ ½ hour north of Sudbury)
Symptoms:
• Symptoms generally only seen under saddle; however, the symptoms below were accompanied by mild diarrhea in Sept-Oct of 2008 and 2009, which cleared up in roughly 4 weeks (symptoms appeared before fall immunizations and de-worming)
• Very low head carriage (will hang head very close to ground when trotting, even after a few days off)
• Won’t step out, very slow
• Frequent defecation (~6/12 per hour) under saddle, generally a little looser than normal.
• Constant flatulence with tail always up when ridden (feels like hind end is 6” higher than front end – which it isn’t)
• Low energy
• Can get very nappy (not normal for this horse)
• Still able to move well and loose and observers will say he looks nice and relaxed, although carrying his head too low
• Sometimes will be very behind the leg going to the jumps but at others will be great
• When not being ridden (and he is not having a bout of diarrhea) you would not know there is anything wrong with him
• I don’t consider this horse useable as a hunter/jumper at this time.
Seasonality of symptoms:
• Note: I have only owned the horse since late July 2008 so the seasonality information only applies to ~1.5 years
• Symptoms started in Mid August 2008
• Symptoms continued until ~ December then we started having some rides where the horse was back to normal (head up, high energy, normal defecation, reduced flatulence)
• Showed significant improvement in March 2008 and continued until from May-August only had ~1 day/month with symptoms
• Mid August 2009 had a recurrence showing signs of significant discomfort
• Early Sept 2009 (until present) symptoms were always present under saddle and were accompanied by mild diarrhea (lots of loose stools and release of ~ ¼ cup liquid manure regularly between piles of manure)
• Nov 2009, diarrhea resolved but symptoms of abdominal discomfort under saddle continue
Stabling:
• Stabled at night in a 4-horse barn. New and well ventilated with large stalls
• Stalls are cleaned daily
• Until June 2009 horses were bedded with oat hay but now are we are using wood chips. He used to nibble on the straw a bit
• Stall base is sand. Urine soaked area is dug out and new sand is added and packed ~ every 6 months
Pasture/turnout:
• Turned out during the day in a small pasture with 3 other geldings. They like to play but there is no significant bullying. This horse is 3rd in rank in the herd and is very friendly towards other horses.
• Pasture is small (~ 1 ha) and overgrazed but adequate in the summer to keep the horses busy
• Top half of pasture is grass and bottom half is sand with grass patches and trees (balsam poplar and white birch) and various shrubs.
• There is a small low section in the treed portion of the paddock that holds water in the spring and fall
• When the grass is no longer good (I assume, as the horses seem to lose interest in it) and prior to a round bale being added, Peety will eat tree bark, old leaves, and even manure. This usually occurred for about 2-4 weeks both falls (~ late Sept - late Oct).
Current Feeding
• We have been very careful not to make fast or major changes to this horse’s feeding in case this is all a result of intestinal fauna disruption from when he was purchased in 2008
• Liquid Corta-flx – 30 mL in pm feed (DJD in hocks-as per x-rays in pre-purchase exam; shows no clinical signs)
• Clean bucket of water in stall (topped up 3 times per day) and large water bucket in field (heated in winter)
• Hay is generally timothy with brome and a little clover: 3 flks am, 3 flks pm, 1 flk night feed. When there is a round bale in the pasture we cut back his am and pm feed to 2 flks. Starting in late October until the grass greens up, he has access to a round hay bale in the pasture. The hay comes from various local sources but appears to be good quality horse hay.
• Feed a locally developed feed mix prepared by BW feeds (see attached nutrition breakdown). Until ~ Oct 20/09 was being feed ~ 2.5 lb in am and again in pm. Due to a decrease in work and a round bale now available to him in the pasture all day, since Oct 20/09 this has been reduced to ~ 1.25 lb in am and again in pm.
• He has a small salt block on the wall in his stall (rotate between the white and brown versions). He generally goes through one every 2 months. We managed to keep him hydrated throughout the diarrhea by adding a salt mix to his feed in am and pm.
De-worming and pasture management:
• De-wormed spring and fall using an ivermectin+praziquantel combined paste
• In Fall 2008 de-wormed on Oct 31/08 then again on Dec 1/08 with no noticeable improvement
• Manure in the small pasture is removed or kicked apart ~ every 2 weeks when there is not snow cover
Work schedule:
• In training as a an adult amateur hunter/jumper mount
• Generally ridden by one individual (owner)
• 2 X 1 hour lessons per week, which includes roughly half flat and half over-fences
• Jumping usually not exceeding 3’
• 1 – 2 hacks out into the forest per week (~ 30 minutes)
• 1-2 flat sessions per week (~ 40 minutes)
• Since the abdominal discomfort began in September we have reduced the number of lessons to < 1/wk and reduced the intensity of the flat work
Tack:
• New custom made jumping saddle
• Goes well in a simple loose ring French link bit
• Bell boots and polo wraps all round
Thoughts and what we have tried so far:
• Fall 2008 assumed symptoms were due to changes in gut fauna as a result of change in location and feed (and being trailered 7 hours to new home). However, symptoms returned very strong in Fall 2009 (and continue).
• This horse is very laid-back and curious about everything, hence stress is unlikely a factor. Also worth noting is that he was vastly improved in summer of 2008 and showed no signs of discomfort at any of the three horse shows we attended (all large shows on an adjacent property)
• Blood samples taken Oct 25/09 and again on Nov 2/09 – all looks great according to the vet. She mentioned these were some of the best results she has ever seen (I currently do not have a copy)
• Reduced concentrate feed mix to a handful for 2 weeks – no effect
• Removed Corta-flx for 2 weeks – no effect
• De-wormed a second time in the fall 2008 – no effect
• Stopped working horse for 2 weeks in the fall of 2008 and 1 week in the fall of 2009 – no effect
• Generic omeprazole at 10cc per day started Oct 17/09. No apparent effect but still being used – no effect
• Sucralfate (Novo-sucralate) started Oct 28/09 for 5 days at 10 pills twice a day – no effect
Other ideas:
• Might the leaves and trees he is eating upsetting his intestinal function?
• Sand in the intestine causing discomfort with movement?
• Maybe it is ulcers and the generic simply isn’t doing anything?
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 10:57 am:
Lynn, wow are you good at keeping detailed records! Always beneficial when you find yourself in this kind of situation.
The first thing that really jumps out at me is that you say that he only exhibits symptoms under saddle. If that is the case and he is truly asymptomatic the rest of the time, to me that says there is something about the riding experience that is causing or aggravating the problem.
Have you tried changing your tack, riding in a different location and/or discipline (trails instead of ring work), trying him with a different rider etc?
I also note a sand base in your stall and sandy pasture. Frequent stooling and diarrhea can be a symptom of irritation caused by sand in the bowels. You can check for this by taking a few manure balls and letting them dissolve in a mason jar of water. Sand in the manure will settle out to the bottom of the jar.
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 11:13 am:
Hi Shannon,
Thanks for the input. I actually do mix up his work quite a bit to keep that lovely attitude he has. This time of the year we work indoors, outdoors, flat in the rings or in the fields, and hack. I figure this should keep us both having fun. The discomfort is even evident on hacks although I am generally just walking (so the old dog can keep up easily).
I have never heard of an issue of sand colic in our area and have ridden at a large training facility (~40 horses) for about 30 years. But, I will borrow a stethoscope (as per Dr. O's info on diagnosing sand colic) as well as toss a few balls in a jar and see what falls out.
Will keep you posted
Lynn
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 11:17 am:
Hi Shannon,
Forgot two things. The saddle is relatively new and he was great using both the old and new saddles in the show season. I had a friend hack and flat him while I was away for a weekend (about two weeks ago) and she noticed it as soon as she started to trot. And she had never ridden him before.
Lynn
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 12:34 pm:
I've been reading this with interest. One thing that occured to me is that you might have two things going on at the same time, which naturally makes diagnosis that much more difficult.
Is the saddle that's "relatively new" the same saddle he showed in? How long was he in that saddle while showing? I'm wondering if the saddle may not fit right, perhaps tight in the shoulder area, or if it's too far forward. This could account for the head carriage. The discomfort wouldn't be bad at first, but gradually would get worse as he got more sore - kind of like a rubbed heel would feel to you. At the walk, he wouldn't be pushing his shoulders so far forward as he does at the trot. At the trot, he'd be reaching much further forward normally and may be altering his gait to avoid pain in the shoulder. Anyway, something to think about and check out if you haven't already.
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 1:16 pm:
Hi Sarah,
Thanks much for the input. The apparent abdominal discomfort was there all last fall and into the spring using the old saddle. He then started to get better using the old saddle and was good for about 1.5 months with the new one. I purchased the new saddle to give him more shoulder room. I am actually pretty critical of how far forward many people place their saddles so I do try to make sure it is off his shoulder, so I doubt/hope that isn't it. I agree that the head carriage points to the saddle or even the hocks. However, the low head and increased defecation and flatulence do appear to go hand-in-hand. I have never had only one of the two symptoms. I am guessing that if the pain from either was bad enough to cause the stomach upset he sure wouldn't jump the way he does or pull off lovely balanced lead changes (or maybe he is just that tough?!).
Keep 'em coming!
Lynn
|
Member:
mrose
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 2:56 pm:
Nope, you're probably right. I often mention saddle fit because it's usually the last thing people think of and often should be the first.
Hope you're able to figure it out!
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 3:54 pm:
I will be interested to hear how the sand tests work out. From my experience it can be hard to pin down the sand sound in the gut until you have a clear example of what to listen for. You might also ask your vet to listen to if s/he is familiar.
The more I think about this though the more it sounds like sand issues to me (maybe because I have seen it so frequently so am fixating!). Not to be alarmist but do you keep some banamine on hand in case of colic? It can be a life saver in the event of an emergency and would never be without it as part of my first aid kit.
Dr O, at one farm where I worked when we had acute cases of sand colic we would tube with a mixture of a high dose of psyllium and mineral oil and would get large amounts of oily sandy poo out the other end. Are you familiar with this treatment at all? I know small dose psyllium therapy hasn't been proven to be effective, but I wonder about this alternate method.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 4:50 pm:
Twice a year de-worming doesn't seem sufficient unless you have had clean fecals. Those little buggers can cause havoc sometimes.
Why do you only de-worm twice yearly?
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 8:20 am:
Hi Shannon and Diane,
Thanks for the replies and interest.
Shannon, I do agree that sand might be the issue. I will give it a go and call the vet for advice. We do have banamine on hand.
Diane, The de-worming program does seem a bit slack when I read through all of the stuff on this site. However, when I mentioned that my vet thought it was adequate for our area. Obviously, it does get pretty cold pretty early here. We have snow until early to mid May and have had a few hard frosts by mid October. He was just de-wormed on Oct 25th (ivermecting+praziquantel paste), so I will need to figure out when it would be reasonable to do a fecal egg/worm count. Any suggestions Dr. O.?
Thanks
Lynn
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 9:08 am:
Hi Lynn, our weather is similar to yours, I'm sure you get colder, but we already have had several hard freezes and it doesn't thaw out until the beginning of May. I slack off in the winter as far as de-worming, or should say I used to until I ran fecals in the spring. One horse had a very high egg count. The reason I decided to run fecals was because of intermittent diarrhea and very gassy, colic LIKE symptoms. He held his weight well tho.
I was always told I didn't need to de-worm in the colder months, but that didn't prove true with this bunch. I'm not sure, Dr.O. can answer better than I, but I think it depends on where in the larval stage the worms are if the de-worming is successful, and why twice yearly worming MAY not be successful... depending on the burden.
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 9:44 am:
Thanks Diane,
I will definitely take some time to speak to our vet about running the fecal samples and will go through the schedules provided on this site and see what I come up with. Do you do run fecals in the winter? Do you think that parasite burden might be causing the current symptoms? I would think that if they were, the symptoms would be worse in the summer not better?
Thanks
Lynn
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 10:15 am:
Lynn I really don't know Parasites can do some damage if not controlled. I don't know about fecals either, I have to wonder if the little buggers don't go into hiding in the winter, I think I read in here that they release in early spring/late winter so I would think that they could cause symptoms in the winter. It probably depends on where they are in the migration stage.. I'm sure Dr.O's article addresses this? I really don't know much about it...hopefully Dr.O. will chime in
It may be something to address if it is a problem. Process of elimination if nothing else
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 11, 2009 - 10:38 am:
Hello Lynn,
concerning the fecal you can get a pretty good idea of what is going on by doing a fecal prior to the next regularly scheduled deworming. This tells you what is happening with pasture contamination. However diarrhea usually accompanied by weight loss is a effect of heavy parasite burdens so I would recommend a fecal in 60 days. It is good to note that cold winters do not kill parasites, though the infective larvae are usually not active at this time. Remembering the notion is to keep the pastures clean, winter time deworming is often indicated by eggs in the stools during the cold. These points are covered in the deworming articles "Overview" and "Schedules".
Let's return to this history. Do I understand you right that when the horse is not being ridden he never has any signs of gi upset?
DrO
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 8:25 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
I was talking with the other boarders and we hope to organize to send some fecal samples away for testing before our spring deworming. Just a quick note that my horse definitely does not have a weight loss issue.
When my horse is not being ridden, the signs are ever so slight that no one but me would really notice. He spends a lot of time with his tail up releasing gas ("gentle" farting?). Not something that most people would think unusual in a horse. When he is feeling good this does not happen. I am quite sure that whatever this is, is present when he is not ridden but either it gets worse when I ride him or the symptoms become more obvious. I can't help but think the seasonality is a clue.
Thanks
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 6:03 am:
Other than mild flatulence what do you see when not being ridden? While I agree after two seasons there is a suggestion of seasonality I find the change under saddle much more remarkable.
DrO
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 8:04 am:
Hi Dr O,
Nothing other than the flatulence that I notice. In the big write-up you might have noticed that each fall he did have a mild bout of diarrhea for 4-5 weeks. What we got was loose stools that begin and end with a little watery manure then in between these stools he would lift his tail and pass about 1/4 cup watery manure. This was more pronounced this year and started after the horses stopped feeding on the grass and before we added a round bale in the pasture. At this time my horse was nibbling on whatever he could find: fallen leaves, tree bark, manure, etc. The other horses sometimes do this but not to the extent my guy does. We added the round bale about 3 weeks after the horses stopped eating grass and it took another ~2-3 weeks for the stools to return to normal. That is about it. I will take a new picture of him today without his blanket so you can get a look at condition.
I tried the sand fecal test and the only stuff that settled out at the bottom was a ton of hay bits. I will try another this weekend.
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 8:45 am:
Lynn, I only really see one possibility and that is when your horse is under saddle you get an autonomic nerve system response that results in increase transit time of ingesta (flatulence and diarrhea). Such responses can be brought on by nervousness, something you really don't describe but maybe this is the outward manifestation of such a change. If a active disease process (sand, parasites, etc...) was going on I would not have expected several things:
1) That the problem is so clearly associated with riding.
2) That the symptomatology would have remained so static (has not worsened or healed) over the past year.
3) That the overall health of the horse has remained so good.
So why the seasonable worsening? You may be right that there is something the horse is ingesting or becoming exposed to in the fall that exacerbates the underlying process. We might even conjecture that some of the normal underlying hormonal changes that occur in the fall, which we are just beginning to define, may be responsible. There are several experiments you can undertake to try to rule in or out these possibilities:
1) Next fall maintain the horse under lights in the evening, like you would a mare to keep her cycling. See if this prevents the onset of symptoms.
2) Another experiment that might have to wait until next year is to not allow access to places where you cannot control what the horse feeds on.
Of course this is all conjecture based on not finding any disease process that accounts for the symptoms so start with the article Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
If no treatable diagnosis is made, I would consider with your veterinarian about symptomatic therapy with loperamide only on the days you ride. The safety of this drug in horses has not been established though there are several scientific studies showing efficacy at slowing fecal output. I have heard anecdotal reports of help with foal diarrhea. I would note this will almost certainly not be allowed in sanctioned showing as this is an opiate derivative.
I would also consider retraining the horse to the saddle. If saddling and riding cause such a reaction, I would think about taking the horse back to the point of training that you do not get such a reaction and start forward there. Making very small steps with lots of positive reinforcement. As the first signs of problems back up to where there are no problems and go slower.
If a working diagnosis is not made, these steps not successful, or if none of this fits in with your goals, you need to consider whether this horse is the right horse for you.
DrO
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 9:00 am:
Hi Dr. O,
Thanks for the input. It sure doesn't sound good. This is my first horse (after riding for 30 years) and I guess I was hoping there was some easy answer out there.
Thanks again
Lynn
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Monday, Nov 23, 2009 - 9:58 am:
Hi Dr O,
I did a thorough tour of our paddock a few days ago and managed to identify almost every tree and shrub in the paddock. As horses have been turned out in this paddock for >10 years I really didn't think I would find anything significant. I did find a lot of pin cherry trees (which the owner thought were alder as they are in poor condition and not flowering). At least one of the horses has been eating the tips off and some of the younger trees have bark chewed off. I have looked up the symptoms of cyanide poisoning and my guy's symptoms don't fit. However, any thoughts on whether nibbling on these might cause the digestive upset?
Thanks again
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 24, 2009 - 7:10 am:
Not that I am aware of Lynn.
DrO
|
Member:
jones
|
Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 8:14 pm:
Hi Lynn,
Below is an excerpt from the Mayo Clinc regarding MSM which is in your horses Corta Flex.(the Corta Flex site does not say how much MSM is in the product)
"MSM for arthritis pain: Is it safe?Are there any adverse effects from long-term use of MSM for arthritis pain?
Answer
from Brent A. Bauer, M.D.
Few studies have examined the long-term effects of the dietary supplement called methylsulfonylmethane (MSM). One study suggested that it's safe to take MSM for up to 12 weeks. But further research is needed to assess its safety for long-term use.
There's no conclusive evidence that MSM is effective in reducing arthritis pain. Two small studies have suggested that MSM may reduce joint pain in people with osteoarthritis. Side effects of MSM may include stomach upset, diarrhea and headache.
Although there is great interest in using MSM to treat a variety of conditions, including arthritis, more research is needed to determine its potential benefits and risks."
My horse has had looser stools in the last year and will occasionally have diarrhea when ridden.
I stoped giving him his joint supplement because I read the MSM can be an gastointestinal irritant.
His poop has firmed up since and is stays in a ball instead of breaking apart when it hits the ground.
Try with holding it for a week or 2 and see if anything changes.
Regarding your horses loin sensitivity:
Does your horses loin sensitivity get any better if he is not ridden for a week or 2?
What about if you lunge him only but do not ride?
Are his symptoms different then?
|
Member:
jones
|
Posted on Sunday, Dec 6, 2009 - 8:17 pm:
Sorry,
Just read you removed the corta flex for a trial!
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 7:41 am:
Hi Jones,
Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, removing the corta-flx for 2 weeks didn't work. When I lunge him he is still extremely gassy. Given the potential for problems with the hocks I don't spend lots of time lunging him. He doesn't really seem to need it (not too lively, well balanced, etc.)
My latest attempt is a feed balancer (Buckeye's Gro' N Win - https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/gronwin.html). He seems to be better in the summer when he is grazing on growing grass but really is only eating hay right now. So, this product is intended to balance horses on hay to make sure they are getting all the necessary vitamins, protein, etc. A shot in the dark while I wait for our southern vet to come up for a second opinion.
Lynn
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 7:51 am:
Dr. O,
Still searching for answers while trying to fit in some of your previous suggestions. Given that Peety used to live in a herd of mares and likely had to fight to get to the hay bale I really didn't think much about the fact that he eats his hay extremely quickly. He also gets so much less concentrate than the other three horses he is boarded with that he was bound to be more interested in his hay than they are. However, these symptoms are quite similar to what you see in older horse that are not managing to chew their hay very well (minus the weight loss). However, usually those older horses aren't ridden. Any thoughts on whether his stuffing his face so quickly might actually be the issue here?
Thanks Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Monday, Dec 7, 2009 - 8:13 pm:
Hmmmm...how do his stools look? Folks have looked at various management factors and no one has ever brought this one up but they may not have looked. I don't think anyone likes to rush their meals is there anything you can do to fix this problem?
DrO
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 7:28 am:
Hi,
His stools look almost normal; a little watery than most with quite a bit of water after the harder stuff DrOps. He does seem to be doing better on the Gro'N Win but he tends to do this: get a little better than get worse again so I am no yet at all convinced.
I'm looking into getting one of the slow hay feeders for his stall but when it comes to feeding on hay outside we may be out of luck. Hopefully he is not eating as quick with a ton of hay in front of him vs a few flakes.
We have one of Ontario's best equine dentists (Kevin Rundle) coming out this week so I am going to have him take a look (sigh...Christmas might be tight this year). Although the horse was floated this fall and nothing odd was found, it seems silly not to have this guy take a look. Peety tends to grind his teeth on and off for about 1/2 hr after being ridden (and hence the though on ulcers) and often holds water in his mouth.
Lynn
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 8, 2009 - 5:17 pm:
Lynn, if he was eating too fast I would expect some evidence of poorly masticated forage in the stools like very long pieces. Another thing you might see would be choking, esophageal obstruction. Without these it seems unlikely.
DrO
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 9, 2009 - 7:24 am:
Thanks Dr. O,
Content of stools looks normal and I have never seen him have any difficulty swallowing what he is eating.
Thanks
Lynn
|
Member:
lynnland
|
Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 8:02 am:
Hi Dr O and company,
Thought it might be time for an update. It looks like we have managed to rule a few things out. The horse's teeth were done on Dec 11th (they were pretty bad). The diarrhea started again a day later but without the symptoms under saddle so I think this was just a reaction to the drugs. I also did the 5-day double dose of fenbendazole (started 3 days after dental work). Two days after the dental work the horse was great under saddle. The diarrhea cleared up in a week and the horse was awesome under saddle for another four weeks. However, on Monday he seemed a little off again with the low energy, low head carriage, and pooping lots. When I got back to the barn and actually saw the poop it was back to being real loose with lots of water. All of these symptoms are not nearly as bad as the fall flare-up but still puts a stop to any significant training (I am not going to push a horse when it obviously is not well). The only new thing is a new hay bale in the field but it was bought at the same time and from the same supplier as the one that was put in there 3 weeks before.
So...given the 4 weeks of great it does not look like a daylight issue. As the increase in flatulence (which you need to know the horse to notice) can also be seen when lunging or just hacking, or even standing in the field or stable, I don't think it would be an autonomic nerve system response to the under saddle work.
So...I am more than happy to try other ideas people may have.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 5:59 pm:
Hello LynnL,
For more for diagnosis of diarrhea and empirical treatment of undiagnosed diarrhea check out, Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview.
DrO
|
|
|
