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Discussion on Is Cushings causing this?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 6:42 pm:
Dr.O. The last few weeks Sam has been very uncomfortable, it appears to be his hooves, I can not detect a bounding DP pulse OR any heat in his hooves. He does not want to come out of the lean to, when he does he walks VERY slowly and stops every few steps and rests his back legs. He IS standing parked out a little. I now have him locked in deeply bedded lean-to for about the last week. There is a good covering of snow on the ground and he still seems sore on that. ON the hard ground he could hardly move. He is lying down more than normal.
Appetite is good
urination seems normal from what I can tell
Vitals are all WNL
BM's are normal
Drinking is normal
Don't like the look in his eyes
I have been giving him one gram of bute AM and PM...does not seem to relieve his discomfort.
This is the way he acted before I started the pergolide...except he was peeing way more and looked bloated.
I called the vet yesterday and asked his opinion, he asked if maybe he had gotten snow balls and bruised his soles...this is possible as I have dug snowballs out of his hooves before he got REAL sore. Vet said I should up his pergolide from .75 to 1 ml. I told vet I didn't think this was cushings related and hate to up his meds if not necessary.
I told him I would wait the weekend and see if there was any improvement, if not I would have him out to check Sam out next week.
In the bedded lean-to he walks OK (not perfect). I gave him banamine tonight as last time he acted like this he seemed to get more relief from it than bute.
I also had given him SMZ's(for his tumors on his penis) and for some reason they helped too. I do not like to give antibiotics for no apparent reason, but I am considering it because it seemed to help him last time.
Does anything jump out at you that would make you think this may be cushings related? Could snowballs have made him this sore, wouldn't there be heat or a DP? (I guess Hank has gotten that sore from them in the past)but he has those thin soled hooves and had Dp's and heat.
I am very worried about him and his eyes do reflect he is painful. I couldn't find any other swelling or heat anywhere, but he has SOOO much hair it is hard to tell.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 6:47 pm:
PS if it matters his diet consists of PURE grass, ok hay. handful of Timothy pellets and and 3/4lb of ration balancer, water, salt and mineral block.
Thanks again...and Happy New Year
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 31, 2009 - 8:21 pm:
Diane - sorry to hear about Sam. I hope you find out what it is that is making him feel this way.
Good luck, and all the best for the New Year to you. You are such a good horse mom.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:19 am:
Thanks Lilo. Banamine seems to be the thing to use on him, he looked a little better this morning. Of course I used my last dose last night. I think the vets office is open Sat. morning, need to get more!! In the meantime I am not going to give him bute it does not help him at all..which is strange, so by tomorrow morning I will know if he regresses without any banamine..hope not!
Dr.O. does response to banamine and not bute indicate anything?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:45 am:
Hello Diane,
The symptoms in combination with the observation that he is much worse on hard ground certainly sounds like the horse could be having problems with bi/quadrilateral hoof pain. However I do not see anything that tells me the cause so the localization needs to be confirmed by physical exam and hopefully will reveal the cause. For more on diseases that can look like this see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
What doses of bute and Banamine did you give?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 9:03 am:
Thanks Dr.O. The vet thought possibly snow balls in the hoof as the cause, and he has had some. I am 100% sure it is his hooves, but not sure if he is foundering or just bruised his soles. All 4 hooves appear to be involved. If he walks on a frozen poop ball it about brings him to his knees. (it is -4 here today without the windchill) so frozen poop balls are hard to avoid . I clean his pen as often as I can and some of it freezes so hard I can't get it all up.
I gave him one gram of bute AM AND PM for a week with absolutely no improvement.
Last night I gave him a 800lb dose of oral banamine(all I had) and he seemed better this morning. He weighs around #750's
I hate to have the vet out if not necessary, I am pretty sure he will give him banamine IV and tell me to keep doing what I'm doing... $150.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 9:16 am:
Forgot, obviously my vet thought it may be related to his Cushings disease and why he suggested upping his pergolide, and why I put this under the cushings disease header. I am not so sure, none of his other symptoms have reappeared.
I don't think there is away to differentiate this from founder or bruised soles is there?
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 12:59 pm:
Dear Diane,
The two things that come to my mind as I sit here with time to follow the board is hoof testers and X-rays. Any idea where in each hoof he's sensitive? The X-ray would certainly show you if there's a founder in progress.
The Cushings horse that I lost in 08 had a terrible time with bruises turning into abscesses until I put her on the middle dose of Pergolide. Before that, all she had to do was step barefoot onto a frozen hose and sure enough, within two weeks we had an abscess....sigh. I can't help but wonder if that is what your vet is thinking. She literally went from 1-2 abscesses a year to none so I never flinched when it came to renewing her prescription.
Good luck, I'll be interested to know how this pans out for you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 2:44 pm:
Thanks Patty I will have the vet out next week if he isn't showing any improvement. If I had to take an educated guess I think he is probably sore in the toe area, he is standing stretched out a bit and weighting his heels more. His hooves are a mess since he had that founder when I started the pergolide, I am debating doing something to them, but playing with Hanks hooves is frightening enough!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 6:10 pm:
Well I think he may be foundering, I picked his hooves up to clean them, I had thick gloves on(-30 windchill) and could feel the heat coming through my glove on the left front. Took glove off and felt hooves and pulses. He has bounding pulses in all 4(but have felt worse), heat mostly in just left front. Unless he has an abscess brewing in left front. He has been pointing that one. Funny thing is he willingly gave me right front, so didn't mind weighting LF. He didn't want to give me LF, but stood fine when he did. He is not weight shifting, is standing with his backend stretched out more than normal. There is not a limp when he moves, he just moves a few feet and stops, rests a back leg. He has also decided to start eating frozen poop the last 2 days...they have hay in front of them all the time.
Sam is VERY stoic horse, I can tell he feels pretty bad.
When I cleaned the lean-to I opened the gate so I could get the wheel barrow in and out. Sam SLOWLY walked out to the dry lot, ate some frozen poop and stood there. When I told him to go back in when I was done he walked along the edge where the snow is deep and undisturbed and he moved better. I don't know what to think for sure. He is locked in deep bedding, I did give him a gram of bute tonight, and 1ml of pergolide.
His BCS is a good 5, I can feel his ribs easily, but he does have some of his weird fat hanging on. His coat is thick, but seems healthy and shiny.
Here is a pic of how he was standing in the dry lot, and is his stance most of the time.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:57 pm:
Hmmmm, does your vet ever prescribe vasodilators for laminitis or founder? If so, I would call to see if he wants you to start those along with anything else he may want him on.
Have you ever tried a laser thermometer? I have one just for checking feet and I'll never be without one. They are very accurate and can tell you within a degree the temp of each hoof and is much more reliable than feeling with your hand.
Do you have any idea what might have triggered this bout at this time of year? Still soaking hay? I bought a heated tub just for hay soaking and have been turning out in a field of tall dead grass on the theory that mature grass has less sugar than short stressed grass. They're only in that area for a few hours per day but so far, my insulin resistant horse is doing ok out there. As a matter of practise though, I laser temp his feet every other night during grooming.
You can find the thermometers online or in some automotive stores. I bought mine about 7 or 8 years ago for around $100 but they have probably come way down in price since then......it was my farrier that got me hooked on them after he showed me how he uses them to locate abscesses.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 9:43 pm:
Thanks patty, I'll call the vet Mon. morning if this continues. I'm not sure what may have triggered this. I did let him on the back hill once with Hank and Flash about 2 weeks ago for about an hour, at that time he was sore too(not as bad), I thought maybe getting out and moving around might help him... it didn't. He didn't seem any worse either tho. He has gotten worse over the last few days.
I do not soak hay, he has been on the same hay for a few mos. with no problems, I don't think this is diet related, but I guess one never knows for sure
At this point I don't need a thermometer to know his LF is pretty warm...the others seem ok at this point. I will keep my eye out for one tho when out and about..thanks for the tip.
I am really at a loss what might be the "trigger" his back hooves seem affected too, I have a hard time believing he had 4 snowballs at the same time in all 4's and I missed it. Very rarely do they get back hoof snowballs.
When I examined his hooves today it appeared he had a red ring around his sole like Hank used to get when he bruised his soles, they were just starting to surface, except they look more like blood blisters. I'll have to see if I can get a pic of them tomorrow.
Thanks
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 11:53 pm:
Poor Sam. I'm sorry to hear that he's feeling bad. He does look uncomfortable. To my eyes he's standing more like a horse with belly pain than laminitis, although your description of heat and pulses certainly sounds like laminitis.
Not to worry you more, but to help figure out what's wrong, do you think that possibly he could have gut pain as well as hoof pain? Feeling better on banamine also suggests gut pain. Is he on any kind of ulcer prevention like U-Gard? I know you said his gut sounded normal, but decreased gut motility with him not moving around due to sore feet could also be a factor.
Darn winter weather! It sure makes it tough on everybody. Hope he (and you) feel better soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 7:36 am:
Thanks Jo Ann, One can never be sure but I think he is standing like that because of his back hooves. I did not get a good look at them because when I touched his fetlock to pick them up he couldn't hold them up well and seemed very painful weighting just one back leg. I think it's his back hooves more than his fronts. When he walks he stops after a couple steps and rests a back hoof. Seems his Rt. more than left. He IS better on soft ground so I am pretty sure it is his hooves with the backs actually being worse. He has a pretty good DP in them too. When he has a flare up of this his fetlocks swell and seem painful too. (this is how he was when I started the pergolide as far as his hooves)and his stance.
Banamine making him feel a little better would suggest GI, and maybe he does have a problem with that too, but he is pooping and peeing normally. Appetite and drinking are normal. Gut sounds are good.
My guess at this point knowing his past history is he is foundering with the rears being worse. I hope the vet office is open this morning so I can at least get some more banamine. I doubt they are doing any calls unless it is an emergency.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 9:14 am:
Diane - do you have any styrofoam for pads? Or any other pads that would provide some cushioning for him? If he is foundering - and with Cushings that is a real possibility - that might help as much as anything - It might also mean the pergolide needs to be increased. Good luck with him - I hate to see old horses hurt - would be so nice if they could talk.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:20 am:
Good morning Diane.
I'm back to work today and in a hurry but there was one other item I wanted to throw in the pot for you: The only time I've seen a horse founder worse in the back feet than the front was when there was an infection in one of the back legs or, when I saw this in a mare, the infection was a bug bite up on her abdomen.. Just a thought to share as I zooom thru............
Have you taken his temperature?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:38 am:
Sometimes the history can help differentiate different disease processes that look similar.
As to the image above I really don't see anything odd. The horse is standing on a hill with the hind end downhill: he has to prop out a little bit behind to compensate.
As to the bute vs Bananmine it may be that whether you used bute or Banamine that last day you may have seen the same response: maybe it was time for things to get better. Maybe things would have been much worse without the bute the preceeding week. In general for foot problems I don't see a remarkable difference in bute vs Banamine when used at similar dosages but there are exceptions.
DrO
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:44 am:
Hi Diane - no suggestions, just sending positive thoughts your way. Hope you can get on top of this soon.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:45 am:
Thanks, Do I have styrofoam pads?? I own Hank! I have everything for hooves imaginable
He is on a very deep bed of shavings and is pretty comfortable on that, so for now with this weather, I am not going to try pads unless he gets worse.
When I fed this morning the heat was gone out of the LF, I am not feeling a DP in the fronts but did feel some pretty good ones in the rears. He was NOT covered in shavings and frost suggesting he was not laying down as much last night as he has been.
Vet office was open No vets there just the secretary, so got some banamine anyway.
I am going out soon to give him some and clean the lean-to...if he goes out the gate again I will try to get a video of how he is moving...it it is strange.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 1:16 pm:
Videos do help a person. He is 50% better today, his backend looks much better, he is still resting his back hooves a lot and standing a bit stretched out.
In this video it is quite obvious it is his front hooves. I think bruised soles may be his problem. He had a gram of bute about 18 hrs. before this video. I gave him banamine after the video.
I guess this is good news for the most part, keeping him on soft ground will be the treatment of choice along with anti-inflammatories.
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100102SamCd#5422206843979177986
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 11:33 pm:
Yes, he does look tender-footed, but so glad he's improved. Luv that bit of body language from Hank. He's clearly saying "MY hay!!!!!"
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 8:22 am:
Thanks Jo Ann.. Hanks is all bark and no bite
Sam looked horrible again this morning, when it gets a little lighter/warmer out I am going to put some boots on him and see if that helps.
Have I ever mentioned I HATE winter
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 5:57 pm:
Dr.O Sam is a horrible mess... I will be calling the vet in the morning. He can hardly walk, his back end is very unsteady, he acts like his front feet hurt, he wants to eat but isn't chewing right, he has a terribly pained look in his eye. When I went out to feed he was laying in the paddock on the packed snow. I don't think he fell down. he got up ok, walked all un-cordinated back into the lean-to. he seems a bit disoriented, He ate his watered down pellets fine, but seems to be having problems with the hay. At first he acted as if he didn't want to eat, then started picking at it and chewing weird, I could see the hay was balling up in his mouth, and his mouth isn't moving in a normal chewing fashion. I had already put a bute in his feed before I saw this and he ate it, wish I would have given him banamine instead... is it alright to give banamine a few hours after bute?
I'm sure he is hydrated I have seen him drinking several times today
I booted and padded his hooves today and it did nothing for him so removed them. I still don't detect any DP's in his front hooves, but do in his rear hooves. To top it off it is VERY fridgid out.
The practice I use has many different vets and the one that is on call this weekend is REALLY, REALLY bad. If my vet or another one was on call I would have him out tonight.
I may try my vet at home and see what he thinks, if Sam doesn't look better when I go check later, he has always said to call him anytime that other vet is on call if I wanted to.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 6:35 pm:
I'm sorry to hear that Sam seems to be worsening, Diane. I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can get the trusted vet out for some answers and that Sam improves by morning.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 6:57 pm:
Diane, there is little therapeutic difference in using bute vs Banamine unless you have a colic and I cannot guess as to the safety of doubling up on this in your specific case.
There is nothing diagnostic in your post, if Sam is very seriously ill, I would go ahead and get some help with someone who can examine and treat.
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 7:04 pm:
Diane,
I agree with Dr. O, call your regular vet ASAP or you will not get any sleep tonight worrying about Sam. I would definitely go with someone you trust over someone that may not give a hoot.
My prayers are with you and Sam.
Rachelle
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 8:26 pm:
Call Diane, you've got nothing to lose if he said it was ok.......meanwhile, I'll be pacing the floor waiting for your post.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 8:46 pm:
I just went out and checked Sam, he seemed a little better, perhaps the bute kicked in. I gave it to him around 4. At least he looked brighter..nickered for a treat(timothy pellets), and was chewing his hay much more normally.
He still does not want to move, standing parked out. He moves a little better on soft ground, if he hits a hard patch or frozen poop, it really hurts, he don't take more than 2 steps at a time whether he is on hard or soft ground, his back and front legs don't seem to work together.. I don't remember Hank being quite this bad with his bruised soles, but if I recall, I guess he was close. He wouldn't come out of the lean to either, but he did move a little better, and more on the soft bedding than Sam is. Sam is lying down quite a bit too.
Somethings up with his back end, I just can't finger it.
Dunno it is strange, the bute seemed to help for tonight. I will call vet first thing in the morning. Still no DP's or heat in front...strong Dp's in back whatever that implicates. His fronts look as sore as his rears.
At least he didn't look so neurological on my last check.... that was my biggest concern.
I hate to say it but regardless of what vet may have come tonight they would have given him banamine and said his feet were sore.. I know that. Tomorrow I will have my vet out when it is light out and we can examine him better and hopefully get to the bottom of this and it is nothing serious.
Thanks
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 9:05 pm:
Oh, I'm sorry to read this evenings posts. Keeping you and Sam in my thoughts.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 12:39 am:
Hi Diane; I'm so sorry Sam is having problems. I to would be trying to get in touch with the vet I trust. From your discription however, I'm wondering if his entire problem is his feet, esp. the fronts.
We have an older mare that quite a few years ago developed laminitis as a result of another illness and high fever. Ever since then she's been prone to reocurrances. For some reason it seems like really cold weather, or sudden barometric changes affect her and cause another episode. Usually I bute her, pad her etc and she's o.k. after awhile. This past fall she had a severe episode which she is just now recovering from. When I first saw her I was positive she had a lot more going on than her feet. She wasn't really camped out, but just didn't want to move at all. When she did, her rear end would shake, her steps were unsteady and her hocks even appeared a little swollen. She also backed off her feed and spent a lot of time lying down. After a couple of trips to our local vet, a trip to a specialist, and several visits by our farrier, she is doing much better, but it's been a long haul. I mention this because your discription of Sam sounds so much like how she looked - and her sole problem was her front feet.
You don't say, or I missed, how much bute you gave Sam. If you gave him two grams, I'd give him one more. I'd also try and keep him where he has soft footing, and keep pads on him. If he's really sore it will take a while for the pads to help him. I don't know how thick your foam is, but I'd make it at least an inch thick as it flattens so much from the horse's weight.
I hope your vet isw able to make it out asap tomorrow morning. I just looked at the time; hopefully your asleep by now and Sam does o.k. tonight. Let us know.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 5:41 am:
Thanks Sara, I have been sitting here waiting for daylight to check him, it is so blasted cold out and my barn light won't work.
As I read your post I thought of Hank when he foundered after his Rabies shot, He acted just like this also, backend uncoordinated, wouldn't move ect. I thought he was neurological too.
I can't figure a trigger for sure, Sam has never had a problem in the winter except one year when I gave them alfalfa. He was out pawing in the grass for an hour, about a week before he got bad. Other than that no grass at all.
I am going to call the vet this morning and make an appt. for today. Unless he had a remarkable recovery over night... that would be nice!
I am the farrier this winter
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 6:52 am:
Dr.O I will have to have the vet out this afternoon when I get home...working out of town. Unless he looks horrible/worse this morning
Should I give Sam a bute this morning? Or skip it so the vet can see how truly bad he is? Bute doesn't make him that much less painful, but does help some.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 8:22 am:
I called the vet he is coming out at 8, Sam was leaning against the wall holding himself up. Doesn't want to eat.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 9:29 am:
Diane - sending healing thoughts. I so hope the vet can figure out what the problem is and help Sam.
Lilo
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 9:39 am:
Let us know, Diane. Hang in there. I personally think it should be a law that all old horses (with their owners, of course) should have to go somewhere warm for winter. I think as they get older the cold starts to get to them just like it does us. Plus, when they do have their problems it would be a lot easier to treat them.
Best wishes to you and Sam.
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Member:
mjq1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 10:29 am:
Diane, There is direct correlation of cushing horses and extreme cold laminitis symptoms. You can do on line research to find the articles. I have a 32 year old and when it gets very cold, below 20 degrees, I have to up his pergolide dose from 1 ml to 2 ml during extreme temps. The cold hurts the circulation in their feet which is impaired already due to the disease. I can tell when it is happening as he starts to shift his weight back and forth and I know it's time to boost the pergolide until the temps come back up.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 11:07 am:
Diane,
I just read this, didn't realise it was your discussion on Sam. Hope vet has answers and he's o.k.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 2:28 pm:
Monica, how long do you keep the dosage higher? Can you do it suddenly or in increments? Do you back off slowly afterwards? I'm asking because I asked our vet about upping my mare's dosage and he didn't think it was necessary, then said if I wanted to try to go up in small increments over a couple of weeks. (Our vet hasn't had much experience with pergolide; I think we are the only clients that use it.)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 5:02 pm:
Just in trying to get my hands warm. Vet was here, I can predict him well. He said he is foundering and gave him some IV banamine, Sam looks very uncomfortable yet. I am building him a stall in the lean-to so he is forced to stay on the soft bedding without Hank bossing him around.
Vet did check his hay and diet, he said it was perfect. He also said he sees no triggers either and he believes it is the cushings doing it.
SOOOO I am to give banamine the next 3 days, keep him on soft ground. If no improvement by the end of the week we will x-ray. Up the pergolide again in the middle of the week if improvement isn't seen..and stay in touch...sigh
Vitals were mostly good resp was a little high...due to pain vet said.
He said the other vet had to euth a horse last night(glad I didn't call) I guess the horse got caught in it's blanket straps, got cast and died of exposure (this cold is brutal right now)
So keep fingers crossed Sam starts improving.
Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 5:41 pm:
Oh, Diane --
So sorry to hear this news.
Sending healing thoughts and prayers for Sam.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 7:29 pm:
Sorry to hear this, but also glad it's not something worse. At least cushings and laminitis can be dealt with, although it's sometimes difficult. Best wishes to you both. Sure wish it would warm up; it's SO much easier to treat horses when you're not battling the cold!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Poor Sam, poor Diane - however, now you have a plan for treatment and hopefully improvement will follow soon. Darn winter weather - the midwest and northeast seem to be hit especially hard. Actually even the southern states are getting it. We had a little relief, next cold front expected day after tomorrow.
Good luck,
Lilo
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 10:53 pm:
Diane,
I'm adding my prayers and good wishes along with everyone else's. So sorry you have to deal with this, not to mention your beloved horse.
Hugs, Shirl
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Jan 4, 2010 - 11:11 pm:
I feel for you and Sam, Diane. I hope the laminitis comes under control quickly. This cold is harsh on us all. So sad about the horse who was cast. Sometimes things happen that we just can't foresee.
Sending healing thoughts your way.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 7:19 am:
Hello All,
monica, I cannot find any scientific references to cold weather and worsening laminitis secondary to Cushing's. I have seen many horses with sensitive feet that will worsen up (bruising?, foundering?, both?) on hard (read frozen) ground and wonder if that is not what is happening to Sam above. One of the best prevention / treatments we have for horses with diseases that cause founder is to stand them in ice water for 3 to 5 days. Then again if this is what works for your horse I would be the last to recommend you change it.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 8:27 am:
Monica I googled around and couldn't find anything either.
Sam had been self medicating I think there is a deep, soft drift in the corner of the paddock, he stands there quite often.. so he is icing his hooves . When I built his stall I included this spot in his "area"
Dr.O. Sam has never been prone to bruising in the winter, he has had very good hooves up to recently.
Vet said his DP's were VERY high in all four. I can't hardly believe he could bruise all 4 hooves at the same time. He is foundering in all 4 I'm pretty sure.
Just went out and fed and he is not improved at all, has a blank look in his eye. He drank about 2 gals. water, is eating but not enthusiastically.
Pooping is good
I did not find any pee. I THINK he peed before I put him in his pen last night around 4.
Called vet and we are going to do blood tests if he hasn't peed by the time I get home tonight.
I really am at a loss with this. He said to give him his banamine, but if he is having kidney problems should I?? Vet said yes if he is in Kidney failure it's too late anyway... Dunno
And would being on anti-inflammatorys for a couple weeks give us skewed blood tests???
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Member:
mjq1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 8:49 am:
Hi guys sorry I am back so late. I only check my computer once a day. The most recent article is in the latest Horse Journal, January 2010, page 10, under Laminitis and Winter. They refer to The Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistence group https://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Equine-Cushings. The vet monitoring the program is Dr. Eleanor Kellon. Diane, I am not a vet, but do feel my program works with my old guy. I immediately doubled his pegolide and saw drastic results, 48 hours. I feel that he will die anyway if I don't do something drastic to stop the inflamation in his hooves. I am not advising you to do it or not do it, but it works for me. I also feed him 1lb of beet pulp, two pounds of Alfalfa Pellets, and 3/4 lbs regular bran with 2 tbl spoons of salt in a mash at night. I put boiling water in the mash, a lot of it, and let it sit for an 1.5 hours and feed it to him with another bucket holding 4lbs of Nutrena Senior feed. He is doing wonderfully. I back off on the pergolide back to his regular dose one the cold snap gets back to the 30's. Hope this helps.
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Member:
mjq1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 8:57 am:
One more thing, the Horse Journal article speaks of using APF supplement and ginseng and only briefly speaks of using hormonal correction (pergolide/thyroid meds) using ACTH thyroid tests. You can buy the article at horsejournal.com. My prayers are out to you and your friend. Monica
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Member:
mjq1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 9:14 am:
Hi again, I tried that internet group listed in the Horse Journal with negative results. You can email the Dr. Kellon directly at Horse Journal at hjeditor@twcny.rr.com
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 1:55 pm:
Greetings and good afternoon..........
Diane...I'm sorry to hear about the founder and while I'm here, I'm compelled to add something to what Monica said about winter laminitis. God knows, I can't remember all of where I read/heard about this but she does ring a bell, a big bell.
Going back to the conversations in the spring and summer about short growing grass having more carbs in it than mature grass.....I have also found that this phenomenon carries over into the winter grass, at least it does for Ziggy. Keeping in mind that Ziggy is my IR Arabian/Paint, I find that even dead winter grass sets off his IR starvation attitude and the more he gets of it, the worse he is. Like you though, I decided to try an experiment: We had several inches of snow/sleet/rain/snow fall right before Christmas. One of my pastures was purposely left to grow in the late summer/fall so there would be something in that field if/when we did get snow here in easter Virginia. When we did, I put them out there for up to 3 hours, even after the snow melted. Ziggy is not reacting to the tall dead grass near as much as he was the short dead grass...so I asked my local certified feed specialist (trained by the PhD in Equine Nutrition that helps with Ziggy) why? She told me exactly what I was suspecting...the short dead grass was still loaded with the "growing" grass carbs even though it is now dead. The taller grass, being less stressed and more mature, is not so loaded with carbs and that is why he is actually doing better in that field vs. the short grass field(s). In some cases, the shorter grass really stresses when the cold weather hits and supposedly, that is why some IR and Cushings horses react to it....some stressed winter grass is more loaded with carbs than it is when it's in the middle of the summer because of the stress the cold weather puts on it.
Over the years, I've read various articles about Cushings horses and winter laminitis but back then, they weren't looking at the actual make-up of the grass, just that there is in some cases a connection. I never saw it in my Cushings horse but I am seeing it in the IR horse......but technically, we could argue theories on that til the cows come home. From what I've learned/seen, the sugar/starch/carbs in some winter grass can be worse than in the spring/summer. I know I have to be careful all year round but Ziggy is doing better on the ole very tall but dead grass that I would have avoided had it not been for the stressed short grass carbs theory vs. mature dead grass.
I don't know if any of that helps at the moment but like everything else we experience, it's food for thought...literally. Perhaps the same is true with the hay so I'm still soaking his hay and will be all year round just to keep that base covered as best I can....and I throw the other horse's hay on top to soak hers too to help avoid an impaction for lack of drinking water when it's cold. I have heated tubs for drinking and one for soaking, also added flax seed to her grain, I've left no stone unturned that I can think of.
Good luck, I have my fingers crossed that he will start to feel better real soon.
(((((Diane and Sam)))))
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 8:44 pm:
Thanks for your opinions and experiences I do appreciate it. I really do not think this is diet related, I could be wrong of course.
He had an hour of very mature grass buried under 6 in. of snow over 2 weeks ago...other than that there isn't a blade of grass to be had, short or tall anywhere he has been. Hank my red herring for IR hasn't had so much as a DP or been tippy toeing. He is actually trotting on the hard ground. Hank up to this point anyway is more sensitive to sugars than Sam has been.
I don't know if soaking his hay would help, but it is soo cold here it would be froze solid in a matter of half an hour, I don't want him to stop eating with this weather so don't want to go that route at this point. Everynight it is WELL below zero and that is without the windchill factor.
I was able to come home for a minute early this afternoon, I wanted to see if he had peed and he did, and again tonight so that seems to be working. He drank about 10 gals of water in a 24 hr. period which is good and normal.
It IS his hooves that are so painful. Our back yard has about 8 ins of fluffy unpacked snow, I took him out there just to see if he moved any better at all and he DID.
I guess I am frustrated because I don't have the time to take care of him as I would like to. It is so freaking cold, I leave at day break and get home right before dark.
I have gotten a plan in my head and will start getting it implemented this weekend.. In the mean time mother nature has 7 ins. of snow planned for us Weds. thru Thurs. Maybe he will be able to get to go out in the paddock a little which I think would improve his "attitude" he doesn't like to be separated from the "herd" even tho Hank does stay with him on the other side of the gates.
I'm not sure what brought this on for sure, I don't think it is diet related. It could be something like road founder from the hard ground, those geldings can get rather wound up and run about, or it could be the CD.
I know I would like to get him off the nasids for awhile, but don't know if that is wise at this point. He has been on them for over 2 weeks straight now at pretty good doses.... Dr.O. what is your opinion on that?
Thanks
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 10:13 pm:
Diane,
My only experience with founder was a pony we owned for 2 years. Her previous owner said she had problems. This was many years ago, and before I ever considered trimming myself, and long before HA (maybe before the internet?)
We kept her off grass, and fed grassy hay to her year round, and yes, she did have slight episodes of laminitis. And sometimes it was for no reason I could figure, and sometimes after I felt sorry for her, and let her out in the snow covered pastures, with frozen grass. I would find her immobile, standing in the deepest snow she could find. Her hoofs would be hot; I don't think I knew what dp was even.
What I am offering, is sometimes they do self medicate, and all we can do is wait and see how it turns out. You may never figure out what caused this, and you do have meds on hand to give which will help.
I have read what Patty wrote about too. It just seems if a horse is going have troubles, they will have troubles, and another can eat anything and nothing bad happens. (My husband can eat anything, I tend to colic and founder ;-0)
Maybe a strict diet and blanket this time of year?
Grasping straws for you.
(((Warm hugs)))
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 10:14 pm:
P.S., what condition are his hoofs in?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 10:46 pm:
They are a mess! worse than Hanks. His hooves would take 20 parts They were pretty good for awhile, but they look like crap again. He needs the same thing done I am doing to Hank, but I'm don't think I should mess with them while he is so sore. He's got quite the toe flares going on.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 5:40 am:
Angie my horses are always on a strict diet. He is not fat other than his "fat lumps" The windchills at night have been -20 to -40 for around two weeks with the daytime temps in the single digits...with no relief in sight. I don't think lowering his hay would be a good idea at this point. All he gets for hard feed is a cup of timothy pellets and a cup of ration balancer twice a day.
2 things Sam is very sensitive to..alfalfa and clover, that will set him off over night. He hasn't had any. This bout of founder didn't happen overnight, I have been seeing changes over the last couple weeks( I guess it does coincide with the very frigid temps). They have been locked in the lean to/ paddock area with attached dry lot for about 2 weeks. There is absolutely no grass available where he has been...none.
I suspect "concussion founder" more than anything, or the cushings disease.
Don't want to blanket anyone if they aren't cold. The vet said he was holding his body temp good. I guess there have been quite a few "exposure" problems over the last few weeks. One of the vets in the area was actually running a warning on the radio about horses dying of exposure and how to prevent it... that was weird.
I hope it warms up soon and I hope Sam starts improving soon. Winter storm warning with windchill warnings for today and Thurs. The weather isn't going to co operate, except maybe the snow..which personally I hate, but if it helps Sam it will be worth it!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:09 am:
Diane,
It IS possible that those flares are causing all his hoof pain, IMO. Pain which is aggravated by the frozen ground, and his sensitivity heightened by the severe cold, and his cushings.
If you may recall, I went through what I thought was Tango foundering last summer. He was in such pain, and my hoof "guru" kept telling me it was hoof flare causing it, not diet. I resorted to taping foam on one front hoof, and tweaking the other front. It took me 3 or 4 days, but the heat/dp went away once I got the hoof done correctly. It was a combination of flares, and he didn't have enough vertical toe height.
I know lots of horses clomp around with long hoofs in the winter, and are fine, but it may be too much for Sam.
I like to think of it this way: Walk around on your finger pads, (well, not literally, just across your desk!) and feel the difference between pressure on your nails at different angles, and on fingers that have short vs longer nails. Now push hard enough to bend a nail back, if you can. That's hoof flare. Now, do that outside in -20 weather, and I bet it hurts worse!
Maybe sounds cheesy, yet I often feel we don't pay enough attention to the importance of keeping walls beveled, and of course an all over balanced trim.
I hope I am giving you hope,, not trying to suggest you haven't done enough with his hoofs, I know you just got Hank figured out! It may really be that simple! Or it may be something else that you vet pinpoints through blood work. But you say you thought it came on gradually, and his diet hasn't changed. So to me it says hooooovessss...but then my brain goes to hoofs anyhoooo, lol!
We've got the cold heading here for this weekend too,(or should I say COLDER temps, wind chill has been in the single digits since...can't remember!) and mine need their 3 week tweak. I don't envy you trying to do anything with the cold temps, yet if I were you, I'd sure try to start, one front hoof at a time, the other standing on padding.
Poor Sam, Poor Sam's "mom" not fun.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:30 am:
His hooves are not helping matters I'm sure. When he is sooo sore I don't know if it is a good idea to mess with them, especially since I hardly know what I am doing. He is basically immobilized (not kidding). He is not walking more than 10 steps a day. It appears he spends most of the night lying down. He has frost on him on the side that is exposed, which suggests he is down most of the night.
I would say he is not improving at all(haven't seen his this morning yet). I guess when Hank foundered bad after the rabies shot he was that bad, at least it was spring and I was able to deal with it a little better. Sam has never been this sore before. Hopefully this weekend I can get some styrofoam pads on him and monitor if they help or hinder. The boots with pads did not help him at all, maybe even made him worse. FME with Hank when he had bruised soles pads made him worse because of pressure on his sole. So I want to be able to keep an eye on him throughout the day when I apply these..don't want to make him any worse than he is!!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 10:52 am:
Oh, Diane --
I feel for you and Sam.
Hang in there. I hope that things improve soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:03 pm:
I decided to DrOp Sams pergolide dose back to where it was, cut his nasids way back to see if the blank look would leave his eye..IT DID. He is still sore as ever (maybe a tiny tiny bit better) but his personality is back, that had me worried. He is interacting with the other 2 over the gates now and talking to me again. He really had been looking like he was in a total stupor... not painful(which he is) just blank. He didn't lay down as much last night either from what I could tell, at least he wasn't full of frost on one side this morning and greeted me with his big old whinny.
Now to get his hooves under control.
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Member:
mjq1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:46 pm:
Diane, what is his pergolide dosage normally. Horses can have .05 up to 5.0ml of pergolide depending on what his blood tests show. Doubling the pergolide will not stop founder, if he has already foundered. It does help the laminie and foot pain 'before' they founder. When my old man starts to hurt when the temps DrOp, he starts to shift his weight every 10/15 seconds like he is standing on hot coals. That's when I increase the dosage. Did you purchase the Horse Journal article or contact Dr. Kellon? She is an expert in this stuff.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 8:05 pm:
monica, there are no blood tests that tell you what the dosage of pergolide should be, see the article on Cushings for more on this. Diane why would you lower the pergolide dose if your horse is showing signs of a Cushings related disorder not being controlled by the current dose?
DrO
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 8:13 pm:
Diane,
I am not sure who or what possessed me to go and look at KC La Pierres website today. Maybe it was because my trimmer told me KC is coming out with a new type of Hoofwear that does not have to be glued on. Anyway, I went on the site to look and see if they had it under new products.
Well, they didn't have that,but they had another section on HyDrOpathics.
https://www.hyDrOpathics.com/HyDrOpathics/Home.html
I thought what KC had to say was very interesting. Mainly that horses need to stay fully hydrated especially horses with problems ( IR, founder, etc) and that they sometime do not do so under stressful, (ie winter) conditions.
I thought of Sam right away and how there didn't seem to be a trigger for his latest bout. Maybe, it is the fact that he is stressed because of the cold and even though he is drinking, he is not hydrated as much as he should be.
I can't speak about the products he is trying to sell as I have not used them, but I do know that some of the other stuff he sells does work and he does a lot of research and studies on a lot of different horses before he puts anything on the website.
You might want to go take a look.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 8:59 pm:
Because he was turning into a zombie.
I am not sure this has been caused by cushings disease, and is not a "road founder" type situation, if he worsens I will up it again.
I don't know Dr.O. I am just plain confused, I guess that's the best answer.
He has continually gotten worse on the higher dosage(and turned into a "zombie"). I have not been around to observe him much. I expect tomorrow will be a "snow day" so I can actually see how he is really doing. I only see him about half an hour a day..if I'm lucky, and have to go from my observations in that amount of time.
How do I know if this is cushings related???? All his other symptoms are "under control"
Wouldn't it just be conjecture to presume it is cushings related? Why give a double dose or more of a powerful drug if it isn't necessary? He was getting a little over double his "normal" dose for about a week, with worsening of symptoms. (we really do need a pulling out hair icon)
Hank is not a cushings horse and he has been as bad as Sam, but he didn't turn into a "zombie horse" and Sam is MUCH more stoic than pansy Hank.
Zombie horse = blank stare... not responsive... dull look in eye. Not interested in surroundings or food (much). Could care less about his herd.
Reduced pergolide back down to 1 mg which is more than what I had him on...65ml he was on 2 ml.
Interacting with herd over the fence, itching each other and hanging out. Sam is usually a VERY verbal horse, he whinnys at me when he sees me EVERY time, he quit. He is now greeting me again.
He is perking his ears again at stimulus (such as a deer in the pasture)
I don't know if the extra pergolide turned him into a "zombie horse" but I had to try something different cuz' what I was doing wasn't working, he was going down hill daily. There was small(very small) improvement today as far as lameness. HUGE improvement in attitude.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 9:11 pm:
Thanks Rachelle. Sam has a 18 gallon heated muck bucket right in his stall with him so he doesn't have to go on the hard ground to get a drink. He has reliably been drinking 10 gallons a day, plus I give him a gallon twice a day in his feed. So he is getting a good 12 gallons, I would think that would be well within normal. Sam is not a big horse he is only about 14hh and weighs 750#'s ish.
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 10:53 pm:
Diane, from my own personal experience with my now deceased horse, too much Pergolide can make them lethargic, lose appetite, etc. My horse had Cushings and Laminitis. The Laminitis is what sent her over the bridge. I may be missing something in the numerous posts on this thread but you need x-rays to see where that coffin bone is, if it is Laminitis, etc. I know you're having terrible weather and that doubles the problem.
Hugs and prayers,
Shirl
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 12:49 am:
Diane, my vet instructed me to give the pergolide in divided doses (ie, half the total dose in the AM, and the other half in the PM) if I observed any symptoms of "zombie horse." Great description, BTW.
Or perhaps Sam needs 1.5 mg rather than 2 mg? Maybe increasing from 1 mg to 2 mg was too much of an increase.
Also, I hate to ask this, but could you start a new thread? This one is getting slow to display. Thanks!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:58 am:
Diane you are confused because, using the information you have given here, you refuse to accept the most likely causes for your horses founder: a Cushings patient prone to founder moving around on hard ground. If you have a better diagnosis supported by information I would like to hear it.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 7:14 am:
THAT is why I am confused, I have accepted he is a cushings horse that probably "road foundered" but don't horses without cushings "road founder"??? ( I own one that has)
How in the world do you determine it is the cushings that caused this???
Jo Ann I can't bring myself to start another part on this, it is making me sick actually. If/when he improves I will let you know
Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 11:13 am:
Hi Diane; I can certainly relate to your problems. My old mare had Cushings, tho' luckily never had laminitis or founder, and I am struggling with another older mare, also Cushings, who does have a history of founder. She also got a bad "case" when the cold weather hit. And she started loosing weight even though she ate all that was given her.
In Sahira's case I know walking on hard, frozen ground was the direct cause of the current founder; however the Cushings is what made her prone to get foundered when other horses weren't bothered. The hard ground and the Cushings work together. Cushings "sets them up" and the hard ground "gives it." All she did was walk around in her pen and that was enough. She was treated for founder immediately - pads, bute, etc. and she is on Pergolide. She was only on .5 mg. and I am gradually increasing it to 1mg. After being on styrafoam pads for two weeks, special pads the farrier put on with really squishy foam on the soles, and now Easy Rider boots with the elevated heel and really soft sole, she is doing much better although is still sore. I've had to keep her in a very deeply bedded stall with no turn out also.
I'm telling you about her case because I think Sam's case sounds very similar. You are at a big disadvantage with the bitter cold and your long work hours. However, from what I've read, you don't seem to be treating what Sam so apparantly has, but instead keep looking for another cause. Sorry, I'm not meaning to be critical, but again from my own experience know how easy it is to "not see the forrest for the trees.
LIke you, I was convinced this mare had something else going on; I suspected some terrible neurological desease as she was so relunctant to move and was wobbly in the rear end. If she had been someone else's horse and I'd seen her I probably would have thought "founder" right away, but because she had been doing so good and it came on so severly and suddenly, I didn't recognize it on her.
I really think you should get Sam on pads and contain him on soft bedding, keep him on at least 2 gr. of Bute (I had my mare on 3 gr. for awhile) and treat for severe founder. Also, keep him on the Pergolide at whatever dose seems to keep him eating and doing good. Like you, I haven't really decided about increasing Pergolide to reduce founder. Also, remember one of the main reasons for the bute is to fight inflamation, not just to prevent pain.
I wish you luck. I at least have had the weather warm up, although now it looks like it's going to rain on top of the snow we have. You guys in the mid-west and east are just getting hammered this year. I feel for you.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 11:28 am:
I have one foot out the door to run important errands but I have a question:
I never had these issues with my Cushings mare, that we lost in 08 due to a torn aorta, but I am wondering if her front shoes helped protect her feet in the winter based on all that you ladies have said? I know you can't box their feet in with shoes during the crisis but would shoes help protect them on the frozen ground otherwise? She was on Pergolide for 6 years (middle dose) and never had a liminitic episode other than the mild case she had 2 years before diagnoses (no rotation but due to excess weight as far as we knew). She and two of the others always had front shoes so I'm just wondering.............
((((((((((Diane and Sam))))))))))
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 11:57 am:
Excellent question! Now that I think about it, my old girl that died had shoes on, at least on her fronts, most of her life as she was ridden up until a year before she died and since we have a lot of rocks and hard ground on our trails, I never let her be barefoot. She'd go without shoes for a month or two a year when we lived where the snow was really deep (several feet of it.) So, I wonder. The mare that I have foundered now has never worn shoes as she was always only a broodmare.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 4:33 pm:
Thanks Sara, I know you have been through the wringer with your girls. I am NOT trying to make this something else.. I DO know he is foundering and has CD.
I DID put styrofoam on him...made him much worse.
Tried boots with comfort pads..made him much worse.
He HAS been stalled on deep bedding since last week.
HE HAS been getting bute or banamine daily (at a pretty high dose)
I DID slowly raise his pergolide.(turned into a zombie and got diarrhea).
I am not in denial, I don't know what more I can do.
I did go get the Equioxx and gave him some this morning, I am also splitting his pergolide dosage as Jo Ann suggested. I would say he has stabilized, but just importantly he is not a zombie horse any more. He looks much brighter and with it, but he is definitely VERY sore.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:13 pm:
There is no way to prove or disprove it is the Cushings causing the founder but it is certain that it is contributing. Yes horses without Cushings road founder but why would that be confusing? Once you have done all you can do (see articles on founder) you wait for this episode to pass knowing your treatments are helping, whether clinically you can see it or not.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:38 pm:
Dr.O. I am trying to understand and maybe pointing out my confusion will help.
IF I understand correctly. normally if a horse is going to founder due to CD the reason seems to be increased cortisol due to the tumor. Horses that founder because of CD usually don't have a reason other than the PPID. IF Sam is foundering because of concussion what does CD have to do with that?? How does it contribute?
Since Sams other CD symptoms are under control, wouldn't that suggest his dosage is good where it's at... IOW what is the point of raising the pergolide dose, will it help his "concussion founder"
I am doing everything possible and have read the founder articles MANY times.
I have no problem raising his dosage as long as he doesn't go Zombie on me, I just want to understand WHY for concussion founder.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 1:13 am:
It makes sense imo to split the pergolide dose, although I don't recall hearing about doing that before. Glad Sam's at least more perky. I always feel encouraged if they have a bright look and eat and drink. It's when they look dazed, don't want to move, aren't eating and drinking right that I start to panic.
btw...do you have one of those head lamps like bike riders and climbers wear? You can even get them at Walmart. They are great for working of feet and injuries. I even like it when I have lights because at night there are always shadows and it's hard for me to see what things really look like unless I have someone holding a flashlight for me - which normally isn't the case. The new ones have very bright lights and are very light weight and cheap.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:27 am:
Yes we have one of those head lamps, we use to use it when we calved in the winter (thank goodness we don't do that anymore) I don't usually go out after dark unless I am worried about one of them.
I guess I should get some pics of his hooves he has some weird things going on with his sole. I don't know if it is bruising or the outline of his coffin bone. I always look at the horses hooves when the farrier is done and have never noticed much of a stretched WL on Sam, compared to Hank anyway. Last night it looked quite stretched at his toe...can that happen in a short amount of time???
I feel rather overwhelmed with this. I like my vet but as the same with Hank he isn't going to be much help. When I had him here Mon. he didn't hoof test, or even look at his hooves... he said he was foundering and he didn't need to.
I had to TELL him to take his vitals. He did as I predicted gave him IV banamine and told me to continue to do what I was doing... If I had him out again it would be the same thing. I have learned alot through the years as far as founder with Hank. It's just so blasted cold out it isn't helping anything.
I am off today so am going to get pics of Sams soles and see what is going on with them..hopefully they will turn out and someone knows!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 1:59 pm:
Sure makes it hard when you don't have a vet knowledgeable about feet or when he doesn't have the right equipment, etc. Our local vet is very good; his only drawback is lack of "fancy" equipment. Luckily, there is an excellent clinic in Las Vegas, 2.5 hrs. away, that has more advanced equipment, several surgeons, and one vet that is really "on top" of feet. He's been a tremendous help to me. Sahira had so much going on as a result of her ongoing problems that the digital x-rays and veinagrams were really helpful imo. Even a regular x-ray helps a lot, as you know. It's amazing how much a foot can change in a very short time.
Glad the knee pads helped; great idea!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 6:43 pm:
Diane, we do not know exactly why Cushings horses are prone to founder but there are plenty of theories. The best explanation for this we have is the secondary insulin resistance (which may be the same cause of founder in Metabolic SynDrOme) causes a lowered threshold to foundering. And this may be a lower threshold to founder from any cause.
But this is uncertain and there are exceptions to just about any correlation to pathological changes in Cushings we look at. But there are mechanical reasons for the increased sensitivity of Cushings horses. Horses which have rotation are more sensitive to bruising at the sole of the toe and subsequent secondary founder.
As to upping the dose, you do have to look at all the symptoms and the signs of toxicity to judge adjustments, pergolide does not work 100% of time preventing founder.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 8:56 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I get it now I think, Sam is IR also and I believe had a bout of founder this fall(why I started the pergolide) so I am sure his hooves were not optimmal for this winter. He has had CD for at least 7 years and I have not had this problem with him before (Hank YES).. pretty much yearly as far as bruising his soles in the winter. Finally get him fixed up and Sam falls apart. Wish those geldings were more like Flash!
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