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Discussion on Pony with moderate to severe tear of SDFT
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 9:52 am:
I came home 2 weeks ago to find my 20yr old (non-working)pony standing in the barn holding her leg up. My first thought was abscess, but after inspection I feared a tendon issue. I have no clue how this happened. 15 minutes prior to me coming home she was in the pasture walking normally and eating hay as my neighbors just came over and gave them carrots. It had to have happened coming into the barn which the ground had been gross from the rain (it had just started snowing too). She is not much of a runner, she has always been very careful. If I had to guess, maybe they ran into the barn from the pasture and she slipped badly or maybe one of the horses hooves clipped her while passing her. She has no history of any lameness other than infrequent winter arthritis stiffness.
There was not much swelling, only a bit puffy and a lumpy area along the back of her RF about 2/3rds the way up her cannon. Very warm only in the tendon area with the swelling, cold above and below. Neither the knee or fetlock had any swelling or heat. I immediately cold hosed it and applied a standing wrap. After calling the vet and he came out the next day and did the ultrasound they found significant tearing of her SDFT. Moderate to severe (4-5).
Nevertheless...
2 weeks later I am keeping her wrapped and applying sore no more under the wrap. She is stalled. I stopped the cold therapy per the vet after the first week. I started 5 minute hand walks 2x day about 3 days ago. She still is VERY lame with a blatant limp. I am still giving her 1gm bute once a day and it really makes no difference, nor did the 1gm twice a day the first week. She seems to be fine standing square with fairly equal pressure (which she didn't do the first week) but if asked to more the discomfort is apparent. Although, she is not resistant to walk along with me, actually very happy to move around. She will let me hold the other foot up with complete pressure on the bad leg with no complaints. Pain on palpation is minimal now, where it was significant at first. Her fetlock is DrOpped some about an inch lower than the other and about 2" lower when walking. She is a tough little girl and is perfectly content eating hay in her stall and will do anything I ask of her.
My biggest concern...Should she still be so VERY lame?
What kind of progress should I expect and time range?
Is it best to keep her in standing wraps?
Is there anything else I should do?
Should I keep giving her bute?
Although she is not working anymore (only because I don't have anyone to ride her) can I expect that she could eventually carry a child comfortably? (I always wanted to have a little girl and have her ride around on her one day)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 10:14 am:
Melissa, I don't know if you followed my old mare Flashes saga, but she is doing wonderfully now, even galloping and bucking around the hills.
I would not be afraid to let a little kid ride her at all now.... it is a long journey tho, and we had better results than I could have imagined. Hers was caused by a slip in the mud... I saw it happen.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 11:03 am:
Diane, I did remember your post and just re-read it all. Your very first video of your mare walking looks just like Sweetheart does when she walks. I'm relieved to hear she is doing so well now. I know every horse is different but I hope my outcome will be the same! Her DrOpped fetlock looks identical to Sweethearts too. Did it ever correct itself? But Sweetheart had no real swelling or anything like in your pics.
I will try to get a video and pics. My horse broke my camera when I tried getting pics of his hoof (another post about quarter cracks- so I have been unable to post any on him either)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 12:36 pm:
Melissa her DrOpped fetlock is just about normal, I think It may be a smidge lower than the other, but hardly noticeable. I do keep her up if it is slippery with mud or ice so she doesn't reinjure herself, but for the most part she is out 24/7 with no problems even paws through the snow with that leg.. Getting her breakover back when we were finally able to trim the bad leg seemed to help alot, the farrier also left her heel a little taller per my vet. Don't know if that was right or wrong but it worked. SMB's seemed to really help her when on for a couple hours a day too.. Every horse is different and so is the injury, rehab ect.
I hope sweetheart recovers as well also, I thought that torn tendon was the end of Flashes good days, but she proved me wrong...AGAIN
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 8:47 pm:
Hi Melissa,
Did the vet tell you to walk her while she is still very lame? My gut would tell me to keep her very quiet and still until there has been further healing. It can take a lot more than a couple of weeks.
If it were me, I'd give the vet a call to go over appropriate treatment at this point in the pony's recovery. I hope you'll update as she recuperates. Best of luck.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 9:54 pm:
Melissa, for some reason Flash didn't swell real bad either at first, it became more apparent after a couple weeks.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Jan 1, 2010 - 10:48 pm:
Erika,
When the vet came out he said stall rest for 10 days and then start hand walking for 5 min and up it every week 5 more minutes, he didn't mention if she were still very lame not to, but thank you very much for pointing that out as I didn't feel really good about doing it. I actually didn't today because I felt uneasy about it.
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Member:
rebeccab
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 9:44 am:
HI Melissa:
My 17 year old mare had a severe, superficial flexor tendon tear to her left front. My vet said 45 days of stall rest with hand walking 2x a day. For the first two weeks, we cold hosed and poulticed her to keep the swelling down. After 45 days, he recommended Shock Wave Therapy, every two weeks for 5 weeks. This did speed up recovery of the tendon.
Long story short...after 6 months of stall rest, hand walking and SWT, my mare has recovered with only a small blemish on the tendon which can barely be seen by ultra sound.
After she was healed, and slowly worked back into condition and shape (another 3 months), she is now doing pony club, hunter paces, trail riding and I am lessoning on her regularly.
It is possible, with the right care and patience, for these horses to be put back to use if they heal correctly. It was a long road...9 months.
GOOD LUCK!
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Member:
rebeccab
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:14 am:
After reviewing my vet bills and timing of healing of the tendon...it was 4 months of stall rest (with daily hand walking and SWT every 2 weeks until the tendon appeared healed by ultra sound).
Then 8 weeks of walk/trot. (Still no turn out.) Starting with 20 minutes of alternating: walk for 5min/trot for 5min. Then working up to 45 minutes of alternating: walk 5min/trot 5 min. 6 days a week.
6 total months of stall rest with that last 8 weeks ridden at walk/trot.
After the 8th week of being ridden at walk/trot for 45 min, she was able to be turned out with a tranquilizer for the first 2 or 3 days of turnout. I could then canter her.
Good luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 10:58 am:
Hello Melissa,
It seems you have gotten most of your questions answered pretty well. Many of these points are also discussed further in the article. I would like to note though that it is very hard to compare tendon injuries across horses without careful pathological descriptions of the ultrasound findings. Even then it has long been observed that even very similar injuries heal very differently in different horses. The take home message it these cases must be approached as individuals.
I cannot speak as to the appropriateness of beginning hand walking after 10 days in your horse in particular but I can say that we try to get these guys walking in hand as early as possible so as the granulation tissue matures into scar it develops strength along the lines of tension.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 11:09 am:
Dr O, is it still OK to walk if she is still so lame?
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 12:22 pm:
Upon rereading the article, and in light of Dr. O's comments above, I will refrain from further consultation. Sounds like hand walking is a necessary part of the healing for good effect.
It's hard to see them in pain though, isn't it? Hope you see improvement soon.
Erika
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 2, 2010 - 1:22 pm:
Melissa when I walked Flash I put her SMB's on she seemed more comfortable and it supported that DrOpped fetlock a little. Sounds like her injury is similar, my vet was worried about rupture and so was I.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 10:42 am:
Hello Melissa,
I cannot say whether it is appropriate to walk your horse. That will depend on the veterinarians assessment of cost vs benefit. But pain alone is not a good indicator. Relatively mild injuries sometimes appear very painful, while some catastrophic ones not so lame. If exercise is used it is incumbent on you to assess for daily changes in heat, swelling, or pain that might indicate further damage is being done.
Stall resting horses can be tough. For help with this aspect of the rehab check out Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 3, 2010 - 12:05 pm:
Thanks Dr. O,
I did walk her yesterday and today and she is doing MUCH better. Still a bit limpy but a million times better than before. I feel relieved that she is not so terribly lame as that was killing me to see.
As far as being in a stall...she doesn't mind it so much. Until about 4 years ago she was a show pony in South FL her whole life and was only turned out like 3 hours a day. Now...as long as she can see her friends and has hay in front of her, she is fine. Fortunately with it being winter the pastures are closed and the horses are either hanging out in the barn or close by so she's happy. If this were to happen to any of my horses, it being her is the best case scenario as she is so tough, quiet and easy to stall.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 6:13 pm:
Ok...walked her Sunday AM for about 5 min and she looked great! Sunday evening for 5 min, looked great. Monday morning...not so great...Monday evening...worse. This morning same worse, called the vet out and he said I should stop hand walking and keep her stalled for 3 weeks and re eval.
1) Isn't the walking vital to healing?
2) How can I learn to evaluate the situation myself? I can't afford $150 every couple weeks!!!
Also, this evening when I went to take her out of her stall to re-wrap her she walked fabulous again!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 8:06 pm:
Melissa as I was told it is hard to tell from afar. The first three mos. after Flash "bowed" her tendon she had a lot of ups and downs. If she looked painful I didn't walk her that day.
Flash was not completely stalled tho, I left her have some of the paddock also to move around if she wanted to. Then built her a pen in the yard with grass to keep her quiet. She can't stand to be completely stalled.
I put the SMB's on her for a couple hours a day and she always seemed to feel better after they came off. I wish I could help you out, but it is hard to tell, you have to use your "horse sense" and a scary injury.
Hope it ends as well for you as it did for Flash..Your patience will be tried
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 5, 2010 - 9:28 pm:
welcome to the frustrating world of rehabbing a horse.. one day at a time..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 6:33 am:
So this is normal!!! I can live with that...as long as I am not doing something wrong.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:14 am:
Melissa, there's no doubt about it - these types of injuries can be frustrating. I recommend erring on the side of caution. If your horse shows signs of worsening, keep her stall bound for at least a few days until she appears improved. Then take a step back in your rehab schedule and start her walking again, as long there are no signs of a setback. When my mare had an injury early this past summer, I was more conservative in her treatment than the vet recommended. I thought she was done for the summer, but with luck and careful care, she was back to work sooner than I had hoped...and 100% sound again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 1:14 pm:
Taking your questions in order Melissa:
1) Exercise helps strengthen the repair but the exercise must be balanced with the perceived strength of the damaged tendon and a assessment of what the tendon can do without further damage.
2) The first step is to understand how badly damaged is the tendon. The article describes how this is done but the information must come from a veterinarian who has carefully examined the horse preferably by ultrasound. The next step is careful daily assessment of swelling, heat, and pain. As you have seen sometimes there will be good days and bad days, I think taking it easy on the bad days to see how the horse responds is a good plan and if things seem to be worsening for more than a day or two, the veterinarian should be called to reassess the situation.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 1:14 pm:
It's been 4 weeks now and we have progressed some. She still has a slight limp but a million times better than before. She is full weight bearing now too. It's definitely a 2 steps forward one step back thing. I've never had a horse with this type of injury. I've had wounds, arthritis and DJD but this seems a bit more trying. She's doing good and her spirits are great. She has begun a constant pawing as soon as she sees me, she mostly air paws but it's driving me crazy. There's not a whole lot I can do about it, it's not like I can hobble her.
Her swelling is minimal and in only the area of the tear and not really any heat. She does have quite a firm lump there that is about 3 inches in length and about 1/2 inch raised. We walk about 5 min a day right now. I still have her on 1gm of bute in the AM, at what point should I stop that?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 5:29 pm:
You should consult your veterinarian about the treatment of your particular horse Melissa but I use bute when I have evidence of acute inflammation, mainly heat and swelling from pitting edema.
You can read more about this type swelling and other signs of acute inflammation at: Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 10:39 am:
Dr O she does still have heat and localized swelling. The heat is mild on most days but today even its pretty warm. So I guess bute is still necessary.
Another question, I have her in standing wraps on both front legs, I wanted to provide support to her other leg as it was getting most of her weight. She stands even now and pretty much bears her weight evenly at the stand. When she moves she definitely steps very short on the bad leg. Should I keep the standing wrap on her good leg still? My vet didn't think keeping a standing wrap on was necessary to begin with but he is pretty passive about it all. He doesn't really think she needed to be wrapped at all after the first 2 weeks.
One more thing...I had mentioned the pawing. She is actually wearing down her toe on her injured leg from pawing...will this pose a mayor problem? Is there anything to do to keep her from doing this besides hobbling because obviously I cannot do that.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 10:51 am:
Hello Melissa,
We answer your questions about wrapping and support at Diseases of Horses » First Aid » Pressure Wraps, Poultices, Cold and Heat Therapy for Swelling in Horse Legs.
Concerning the toe, I guess it depends on how much she wears the toe. We provide helpful information on keeping horses quiet while confined at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses. Much can apply to paddock rest. If the toe wearing becomes extreme you can consider boots or shoes until the horse gets out.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 6:43 am:
Melissa, Flash was pawing with her bad leg too, as far as wearing the toe that wasn't a concern, but it did seem to aggravate her injury and cause more heat.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 10:29 am:
Diane, did you find a way to make her stop? I'm 7weeks into this and she really isn't improving. The hand walking is minimal as most days she is lame. I think the pawing is really hindering any possible improvement.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:20 pm:
Yes, a small pen in the yard with grass or hay to occupy her The pawing completely stopped and the healing began!
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:37 pm:
I do have a 16 x 20 area I could do that with but with all the snow and rain it is SOOOOOOOOOO nasty here I think that she might do more damage in there right now. I fill her stall with hay and bing the pig that she is you would think that would help....not so much. She grabs a mouthful walks to the door and paws.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:19 pm:
That's what Flash was doing too. I think she wanted out with the other horses, so I made an addition to her stall with gates so she could be "out" with them when it was too muddy or slick for her to go in the yard, then I fed the other 2 right next to the bottom of the gates so she was eating with them nose to nose.. that helped when she couldn't go out in the yard
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:47 pm:
I'm trying to think of a good place to do something like that. There is no dry area except inside the barn right now...I do have her in the stall that is right at the door way and she can see two of the horses the whole time. But that is apparently not enough for her. Part of the problem is the horse come in their stalls to eat and then leave when they are done. This stall thing is torture for both of us! lol. If this gross winter would end life would be so much easier!
I've got to ask Dr.O...you are about and hour from me...how are you handling this wet wet wet winter with your horses???
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
"If this gross winter would end life would be so much easier!"
Ditto!
Melissa I did try an uncle Jimmys hanging ball with her and that helped a bunch too
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 6:26 pm:
lol. I tried the Jimmy ball, gone in 2 days! I bought 4 so far. At $20 a pop and the likelihood I'm rotting her teeth (lol)...she is still pawing!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 6:54 pm:
Melissa,
Does your mare paw when you are not around?
I had one of my horses on indefinite stall rest 6 months for what started out as a non-displaced condylar fracture of the cannon bone. This mare would not only paw but yell and scream every time I or someone else walked into the barn and that could be every 10 seconds.
I had better luck segregating her from everyone and putting her in the quietest stall where she could not see everyone coming and going. She stayed pretty calm that way. The way the barn was set up there were two pretty large stalls across from each other in the middle of the barn that were semi-walled off ( the vision line was obstructed, so she couldn't see what was going on) from the front and back of the barn. As long as she had hay in front of her to keep her busy and no one walked by during the day, she was much better.
The fracture healed really well, but the bone cyst that caused the fracture, never went away, so she was retired.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:19 pm:
LOL that's why I quit, Flash was devouring them! I think somehow incoporating her into the herd without actually doing it is your best bet, you have to consider whether she should move that much too. Flash was pretty quiet, except when she first started going out, then the grass started coming in and that saved us.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 9:17 pm:
Rachelle,
I don't know if she paws when I'm not around (I'm not there to see, lol). I'm guessing she doesn't. There is no where on my entire property that I could put her where she would be completely isolated, although I bet that would do the trick. My two retired horses roam free and are in and out of the barn and all over the property.
She has always been a "pawer" to get what she wants but she always got what she wanted before...now I'm paying for spoiling her I guess.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 8:20 am:
Can you lock the other 2 horses in so they are closer? I made my other 2 stay in the drylot next to her. When they headed out the pawing started...she did paw when I wasn't present I saw her doing it from my window....when the other 2 headed out to pasture. Once I realized she was doing this I did get it to stop with the above steps. Once she was allowed in the yard, I left Hank in with her for company for a little while, I knew he wouldn't bother her...especially with grass present! She got to itch, graze with him and feel more "normal"
The pawing really did aggravate her injury.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:21 am:
I really don't want to lock the other two up it wouldn't be fair to them. All the horses have been in at night because of the weather and she does it when they are in there with her too. It's become a constant habit and I know it's hindering her healing plus it makes me absolutely crazy to hear the noise!!! I yell she stops, I turn my head she starts, I can be in her stall cleaning with her and she will stand at the door and paw. Some days are worse than others, today was one of the worst.I wanted to pull my hair out! Now I've lost power because of this beautiful weather and can't do anything!Thank goodness for blackberry's!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:41 am:
UGGH and you moved from Fla.. Winter weather makes everything so hard when rehabbing an injury. I don't have anymore suggestions, the grass is what really saved us. Flash injured herself in Feb. and we actually had an early spring last year so was able to get her out in the yard early. It is also the only flat spot on this place. She always had to paw "against" something... such as the gates or the wood fence. Her pen was all electric fencing...nothing to paw on. Her pawing DrOve me nuts too. She is a pawer anyway, but with that injury it wasn't a good thing...wonder where Hank gets that habit!
Wonder if a small elec fence pen would put an end to it? Once you get your elec back on!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 9:51 am:
What a good girl...she would stick her leg through the gate as she was pawing and pull back...
Frankly I'm surprised she healed as well as she did, your pony IS early in her injury. Seems it takes forever for them to become "sound" I'm glad my aim was pasture potato or it may have been worse, would some sort of tranq help? I really didn't want to do that, but almost did until I discovered grass was the cure of all her evils.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 10:11 am:
Melissa,
Try a heavy duty water pistol ( or a 60 cc syringe with the tip cut off, load up a bunch of them) and don't yell at her. It seems the more we yell the more they do it, it's like an attention getting thing. and get a clicker, click when you get the behavior you want and praise when she stands still and doesn't paw. It does not take long for them to realize good behavior gets rewarded and bad behavior gets ignored.
I'm not sure If you read my post on my two year old colts behavior over the last few weeks, but the clicker training has worked very well. He no longer bullies me at feed time and yesterday when I went to bring him in because of the impending blizzard, we are now in the midst of in Central NJ, I was able to catch him, put the lead shank on him and calmly walk him inside without any mishaps. He was also very cognizant of my body language and paid attention to every move I made. I stopped, he stopped, I walked, he walked, no yelling or screaming( on his part or mine) didn't even try to strike or bite. Much better than me almost getting killed last Saturday in almost the same type of situation.
Pawing is really a very annoying habit.
Rachelle
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 12:17 pm:
Oh Diane...that picture is such a familiar site! lol, that is exactly what Sweetheart does. She doesn't need anything to paw against, she'll do it in the middle of the stall when I'm filling her water bucket...just out of reach!  The electric pin thing is so what she will be in once some dry weather kicks in.
Rachelle, I am definitely going to get a water gun, that is a fabulous idea, as soon as I can get out on the road. You are in the middle of the blizzard aren't you!
And Diane...FLA seems mighty nice right now! lol. Actually I don't miss it a bit! The extreme heat and humidity it way worse than this! Plus the horses seem to love this gross weather and hated the heat there! We are having snow, ice then rain repeatedly over and over. It's quite gross. And makes for a very muddy farm! The power issue here is from the saturated ground and trees falling over. Tomorrow is supposed to be 50 and sunny!
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Monday, Mar 15, 2010 - 10:02 pm:
So... three months later and not much progress. Good days, bad days. I really think if she would stop pawing this would be moving along better!
I did the water pistol, she knew before long it was me and just figured out how to position herself in her stall so I could not get her...still pawing. I made an outside pen about a 20x20. Helps a bit, but she still paws as soon as she sees any signs of a human (which means food to her). So if I go outside to do anything she starts and does not stop.
My farrier came Friday and trimmed her, her front feet had a red/purple line between her sole and hoof wall. The farrier said its bruising from her pawing and not to worry about it????????? She still has a rather large lump, warm every third day or so.
Her fetlock is no longer DrOpped, that is the only real improvement besides her weight is the best it has ever been now that she cannot eat everyone's food!
Will she ever heal if the pawing continues?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 6:59 am:
Melissa can you keep some kind of low carb hay in front of her 24/7 a hay net? Flash was tubby too, but it was worth keeping hay in front of her to keep her quiet and NOT pawing. We dealt with the fat after she healed. At feed time she would gallop around her pen and paw . Why do ponies have to be such hogs!
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:33 am:
Diane, I do keep her stall full of hay all day. When I bought my winter hay there were a lot of stalky bales and she has a bale in front of her at all times. It doesn't stop her. I think the weight loss is from her not steeling Moose's alfalfa. Plus she misses grazing and although there's not much grass she sees everyone doing it.
I'm just so frustrated!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 7:48 am:
Can't you make her a pen in the grass? I started with a small one in the yard, then once I knew she was going to be quiet, I enlarged it every couple days to keep her occupied with the grass. I did keep her in the stall paddock at night tho. I just used step in stakes with electric fence wire for her Grass pen, very easy to enlarge as needed. Once I knew she would be quiet, I left Hank in the yard to graze with her for an hour or so, she enjoyed the company and Hank enjoyed the grass! They get a long very well so knew Hank wouldn't bother her. She had the whole back yard with in a couple weeks, remained quiet. Of course you should consult your vet about something like that. I was at my wits end and had to do something...my vet didn't really approve! Thankfully it worked out for US.
Are you training her to paw inadvertently? When she paws do you feed her right away? Give her attention?
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:14 am:
The person who boarded my gelding for a year before I could get him home thought pawing was cute. She had 22 horses at her place. Everyone of them pawed. I tried everything I could think of to stop him - nothing worked. When he went to the trainer she put hobbles on him. He will still start to paw at feeding time but all I have to do is say EEEHHHHH- and he stops. Might be worth a try.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 8:12 pm:
Diane, she has always pawed at feed time and in turn was fed (only because it was feed time, lol). So yes originally I'm sure she thought pawing got food. But that was the only time she did it. Now being in jail she does it all the time and I do not do anything in return (except a feed time). I do love the moving pen in the grass idea! MY only concern there is spring grass and founder. Is there enough grass in a 20x20 area to put her at risk for that???
Cheryl, I laugh at the EEEHHHHH! That is what I do now with her and it works for like 10 seconds! lol. I feel bad because she is just as frustrated as me but she doesn't seem to get that she is only hurting herself! I haven't used a hobble because of the concern with her hurting herself more, but I'm getting to the point that which is worse??? The pawing or hobbling her???
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:22 pm:
Wonder if a kicking chain would work HMMMMM
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:41 pm:
My friend mentioned that! Where do you find such a thing, I had never heard of it!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:54 pm:
When I worked at the boarding barn they had a mare that would kick the stalls at feed time, she would almost bring the place down!!! the barn owner made her a kicking chain and it worked!!!
I can't remember how he made it it was a cuff that was fleece lined and was like a belt with holes so the size could be adjusted... then he attached some chain links a voila.. mare quit kicking in 2 days.
This is what they look like
https://www.saddlesource.com/proddetail.asp?prod=10413
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 12:42 pm:
I'm at my whits end here! Kicking chain was a no go, she didn't care at all. She wondered what it was at first and thats about all the thought she gave to it, pawing away she went!!!
I've had her in a grassy pin all weekend and that helped, but the first sight of me or the others get out of sight or when they come back...paw paw paw!
The hobble is looking more appealing now. After inspecting one I have several questions as it seems pretty restricting.
Do you leave it on at all times?
Or do I just put it on as punishment?
How do the walk?
How do they lay down and get up?
It it just used for a while and then they stop?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 1:22 pm:
Melissa I would be scared to hobble a pony with this injury. They should be hobble trained before applying them for long periods. I personally have seen a lot of "train wrecks" where hobbles were applied and the horse not properly trained to them.
Your mare is more persistent than Flash it seems, I'm out of ideas for you, short of retraining her. She is pawing when she sees you for a reason...whatever that reason is remove it. If it is related to food, don't give her any treats when you are out with her. If it is related to feed times... switch it up a bit... if she is getting hay and "grain" eliminate the grain and just give her hay until she quits pawing, once done pawing praise her, and give her her grain.... they catch on sooner or later...hopefully sooner. I taught Hank to quit pawing at feed time doing that and he is persistent!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 2:29 pm:
Melissa,
I agree with Diane, I am not sure I would hobble her either. Is there somewhere away from everything that you could put her so she can't hear or see anything. The I think I would give her enough hay to last her 24-36 hours and I would deal with her as little as possible.
I think what's happened is since she wants attention she paws, you either yell at her or do something to get her to stop so she gets the attention she wants even if its negative attention, so it just continues. The only way to get it to stop is by ignoring it and her and since you can't do this with her in the barn, you need to remove her. Go deal with her when its not the frenzy of feed time and where she expects you to feed her or pay attention to her, you need to sort of take her by surprise and change her routine even if it means someone else has to deal with her for a while.
Putting my mare that was on stall rest in seclusion was the only way to keep her from hurting herself and driving me crazy.
You might also want to look into clicker training to try and get the good behavior, no pawing. It might slow her down enough to make her think about being rewarded when she does not paw.
Rachelle
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 2:32 pm:
I thought the hobble thing was a bad idea. Honestly, I don't do anything when she's in there pawing. The only time I do is a feed time (2 times a day. I put tons of hay in her stall and in her pin before putting her in there so it's not while she's pawing. At feed time I set he bucket down until she stops pawing before giving it to her(not sure if that helps). If I'm walking out to get her and she paws I stop until she stops and won't come forward until she does. It only makes my barn time take long, not really helping but for a second. I watch her out the window and she does it when the horses walk away...and then when she sees them again, as if she's calling them with her leg. If I go sit on my porch and she sees me..it starts, I do nothing but she continues. She NEVER gets treats, I never pay attention to her if she's pawing...unless I'm yelling EEEEHHHHHH! lol. It's completely neurotic behavior! I sedated her and she still pawed! Pretty soon, I'll need the sedation!
I want to put a cast over her whole leg so it wont bend anymore!!! kidding...not really...lol.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 3:24 am:
Melissa, have you considered putting a mirror in her stall (one designed for horse use obviously)?
It might take her mind off the comings and goings of the other horses and you, and give her some "company" so that she doesn't need to paw.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 6:24 am:
LL, that was the first thing I put up when I stalled her...no luck. She could care less. There was one left in my barn when I bought this place, couldn't figure out what it was for at the time.
Rachelle, I guess I spent too much time trying to make her happy and keeping her close to a normal life as possible but it's not helping her. I think the seclusion thing and leaving her alone as much as possible is going to be the only way to fix this. I've closed the end of the barn and stalled her in the corner and leaving her alone. Accept to feed and re-wrap her of course. Hopefully it will stop this!
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 9:32 am:
Melissa - Robbers only pawed when Nicole would bring him out of the pen and tie him to get him ready for riding. The only time he pawed here was at feeding time. She was there while he had the hobbles on - it took two sessions to stop the pawing. All I know is Robbers no longer has a foot deep hole in front of his hay box or in front of the gate where he use to paw when I was on the way to feed them. I definitely wouldn't leave them on without being there.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 8:59 am:
So, I tried the seclusion thing. No luck, I gave it 30 days and she still pawed and apparently worse because she was more lame than ever. My vet said up her bute, and give it more time. When my farrier came last month and trimmed her he couldn't believe how much worse she was and said to turn her out, let her be a horse. I thought, you know what, I can't stand to see her like this anymore, I'll give it a shot. I tried it in a small grass pen alone, she still pawed, then I put her out with one of my horses and that was the trick. The only time she paws not is when she goes in her stall to eat. Its been about a month and she is a million times better and sound!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 9:37 am:
Melissa glad it worked out. I think quiet movement is good for them, especially if they make themselves worse when stalled. Flash did something to herself, while she was kind of lame before I locked her up, she seems worse now since limiting her. I am going to turn her out in the pasture next to the boys and see how she does, at their age quality of life counts too.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:01 am:
I agree Diane, I feel like locking up those older horses makes them ache all over. Quite movement is good for all of us. lol. I have a bad ankle and it bothers me more sitting at my desk at work all day then when I work out side all day and ride. Hope Flash is ok! If they could only talk!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:27 am:
Melissa,
I am so glad you found something that worked and I am glad you updated us with the solution.
On another thread I commented about letting horses be horses, what happened with your horse is just that type of situation.
When one of my horses ended up with an injured tendon, I had to make a decision as to what I was going to do with her. This was a mare that was basically turned out 24/7, crazy and if she did not do something everyday( workwise) would hurt herself. Keeping her in a stall was not an option because when stalled she would constantly kick the walls. I weighed my options and said if she was in the wild what would happen, I also did some research on wild horse injuries where there is no one to take care of them, they either heal by themselves or they get killed because they are injured. I didn't think my mare was in a position to get killed so, I basically left her on her regular schedule turned out 24/7 with very limited work. I treated her holistically, put her on a tens machine a few hours a day and within a few weeks I saw her running around the field perfectly sound doing sliding stops like a quarter horse. When I saw that I started adding more work, I did ultrasounds once a month, paid attention to the leg, did the normal rehab stint and she returned to the races. There are several reasons why I did this, other than what I stated above. I felt that if she was at least moving about outside the rest of her would stay in much better condition requiring less conditioning as she returned to the races.
I've tried to take this attitude with all of my horses, and they only time I did not do this was with a horse with a fractured cannon bone, caused by an undiagnosed bone cyst( found after the fracture healed) that she had before I bought her. The bone cyst did not show up on a regular xray( it looked like it was part of the fracture), but did show up on a digital xray after 4 1/2 months of stall rest. Mare was sound at the trot after 6 weeks, but since the xrays could not distinguish the difference between the cyst and the fracture, she remained on stall rest for another two months. This was the mare that I had to put into solitary confinement or she too would have dug herself silly with her bad leg of course.
I know this movement when injured is contrary to what most people think, but I have found over the years what seems to work best with the horses that I have to deal with on a daily basis. I think a lot of it depends on the personality of the horse and what level of lameness people can tolerate looking at. From an overall perspective, the horses tend to heal faster with less residual problems and less tendency to reinjure themselves when they are finally let out of their prisons after a long stall rest stint.
Best of luck going forward with your pony.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:36 am:
While I believe free exercise is probably good for some injuries, lock up is necessary for others. They may heal, but they may not heal "correctly"
I am going to update Flashes thread as I struggle with what is right for her.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:52 am:
I think with Sweetheart the pawing had to stop or she was never going to improve so turn out was the only option after 6 months of stall rest. She is very quiet and careful and a pretty rational pony so I knew running and horseplay was not going to be a problem. But that is what shocked me when she got injured to begin with, she is so very careful. What I also considered was that she is over 20, retired and as long as she was happy and not in pain I had to make her life better and trust she would know her limits. (not the case with alot of horses, but she has proven she does).
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 11:53 am:
Diane makes a very good point about something healing but perhaps not healing correctly.
It sounds though like you are making the best judgment call for Sweetheart that you can, Melissa.
Good luck with this.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2010 - 3:38 pm:
So its been 9 weeks with turn out, the first 4 was 12 in and 12 out, now its pretty much 24/7 and I have to say she's completely sound!!! Her leg is ugly, it does have a cold hard lump of scar tissue, but she is doing great. I am so happy to see her trotting around sound! She was walking lame prior to turn out. She busts out in a canter now and then too (at feed time if she is across the field...she's pretty lazy otherwise) and it is beautiful!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2010 - 10:13 pm:
Glad to hear it Melissa!!! I was so happy when Flash got out of jail, just remember that it is a weaker tendon now. Flash re-bowed hers after a year of being just fine, I don't know how it happened. I lock her up at any sign of slippery conditions now, and probably as long as she lives, she seems to be slowly ( VERY slowly) on the mend again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2010 - 7:36 pm:
I would love to see some good images of this leg Melissa.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2010 - 10:08 pm:
Here are some pics I took. I'm not sure if this is the angles you are looking for, if not let me know. It's ugly...but I'm ok with that. The lump is hard, cold and she doesn't seem to be bothered by palpating it. In a couple pics she is leaning because my other horse wouldn't leave her alone.      
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 7:41 am:
Thanks Melissa,
a image can be worth a thousand words. Delighted to hear things are going well and those images in combination with your descriptions don't seem so bad.
DrO
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 21, 2010 - 9:26 am:
Thanks Dr. O! Yes pics are worth a thousand words! Kind of like Moose's ring bone x-rays!
Sweetheart is doing great. Although I still keep a very close eye on her and keep her in when it rains to avoid slippery footing. But, that hasn't been much of a problem here this summer!
I know she will always have a weakness there but I followed the preferred protocol with stall rest and hand walking but her relentless pawing really ruined the whole healing process. The ideal situation would have been the proper healing with no ugly lump and a stronger tendon, but I couldn't seem to resolve her pawing issue.
I by no means want people to read this and think that turning out an injured horse is beneficial, it was just the last alternative to a worsening situation that turned out good. Good...not ideal.
Thanks again Dr O and everyone for your advice and support!!!
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