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Discussion on Cushings, Laminitis, and Cold Weather
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 12:00 am:
I am very curious about how to manage a cushings horse with a history of laminitis during the winter. This question was raised on Diane's thread about Cushings, and for the sake of clarity I've started a new thread rather than add on to that discussion.
My 23 year old Morgan mare Suzy has Cushings and is on pergolide. She also has a history of chronic laminitis. Her laminitis has been more active the past three winters than during the other seasons. We linked the first winter flare to a week of unseasonably warm weather and a flush of growth in the pasture. Last winter's flare followed a very vigorous run in the muddy pasture with my other horse. My vet thought that the running (the horses were really wound up, and it took a long time before I could get them to stop running, so I know that she really overdid it) stressed her lamina to the point where she tore free some of the weaker fibers and the resultant inflammation was what we were seeing rather than a new episode triggered by the cold.
Since then she has been kept in her own dry lot to avoid a repeat of these triggers. We got her through last winter's bout, and she had a good spring, summer and fall, with a lot of good progress with the trimming and reshaping of her hooves.
Last week she was a little tender-footed, but the ground was rock hard and she was okay in her stall with bedding. Tonight her front feet are hot and painful, and she is walking stiff-legged. Her legs are so shaggy and my fingers are so cold I can't tell about pulses.
So I am trying to figure out what may have triggered this episode. She did have a mild colic over Christmas, probably due to inactivity with the deep snow that we had at that time. Her colic resolved in less than a day with oral banamine and hand walking. She has not been running in her paddock on the hard ground since the snow melted, just walking around. She actually has been spending most of her time in the barn (she can go in and out as she pleases) out of the wind. Her routine has been the same, her feed is same, and no grass at all because of the dry lot. She is at excellent weight this winter, and has lost some of the lumpy fat that she had earlier this year.
I gave her a gram of bute tonight and I'll talk with my vet in the AM. We have managed her past episodes with bute, stall rest, and deep bedding, and so I hope that a repeat of that strategy will get her through this episode.
However, I sure would like to avoid these winter flares if at all possible. I asked my vet this fall if we should proactively increase her Pergolide dose, and she said no, that she feels that her current dose (1.5 mg/day) is plenty sufficient. I have a lot of confidence in my vet, she is a diplomat in equine medicine, and has taken care of my horses for years, so I respect her opinion on this. But if Dr. O or anyone has any ideas about prevention or treatment I'll share it with her.
So, to recap my questions are:
1) What is the best winter management practice for a cushings horse with a history of laminitis?
2) Does anyone have any ideas about how to improve upon what I am already doing?
3) Was the mild colic enough to trigger this episode, or is the stress of the cold weather and the natural increase in cortisol more likely to be the cause?
Thanks everyone.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 12:09 am:
Dr. O, I thought I was posting under Cushings. I must have goofed. Please move this if you see fit. Thanks!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 5:01 am:
Jo Ann I remember you having a bad time with Suzy last winter. I KNOW Sam's is not diet related either. I wish it were, at least I'd know how to deal with it.
There seems to be no trigger other than the CD or cold or both. When my vet was here he said he has some CD horses that get worse this time of year too. I HAVE doubled Sams dosage of pergolide over the last week and have seen no improvement.
If you find any answers let me know
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 7:23 am:
Hello Jo Ann,
I think you too sound like you are suffering from a possible history of "road bruising/founder" brought on by frozen ground as you both have the same history of moving around on frozen ground prior to the onset of bilateral forelimb lameness originating from the sole.
I do not have any particular instructions to deal with these horses in the cold other than what you will find in the three articles: Founder overview, Cushings, and Winter Care. As stated in the other article one of our members believes they see an increased need for pergolide during the winter, not something I have seen or read.
If it is determine that these are founders caused by sensitive feet moving around on hard ground, something we see all the time and year around, I would carefully review what is known about the coffin bones position. Often horses that show increased sensitivity to this problem have unresolved rotation that can be corrected. In the mean time protecting the soles during these times should help.
As to the cause of the colic all we can conjecture if there is no known firm diagnosis of the cause. A lot is made of the stress of cold in horses and this is largely a myth based on our own stress that comes with this time of the year, in my opinion. All things being equal horses are physiologically stressed more by very hot weather than very cold weather.
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 8:03 pm:
Dr. O would walking casually around the paddock be enough to cause road founder? I suppose there is the possibility that she has done more than that and I wasn't present to observe it, but the only activity that I have observed since the ground became hard was an occasional stroll here and there. Mostly she has been hanging out in the barn or sunning herself a bit outside at mid-day.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:25 am:
By itself no Jo Ann, but that is not all that is going on. You have a horse that has Cushings, a history or repeated bouts of founder, and the ground according to your first post is rock hard. Certainly the combination of factors is possible.
DrO
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:09 pm:
Ah, I understand. My vet agrees with you that concussion is the likely cause, so everyone is on the same page with this.
Suzy looks more comfortable today after being on a steady dose of bute for two days and staying on deep bedding.
Would it be too much to ask for a break in the weather? Florida is looking better to me all the time.
Thanks Dr. O, for your help with this!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:40 am:
Glad Suzy is more comfortable, Jo Ann.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 11:08 pm:
Well, after several days of looking better Suzy is once again very sore. Her feet do not feel as warm as they did initially, but she looks even more uncomfortable than she did when this started.
She is spending more time lying down than before. When she gets up, she adopts the classic rocked back stance. After being up for several minutes, she will move her weight more forward and stand a bit more normally.
She has been on deep bedding this whole time. I had been able to DrOp her bute down from 1 gram twice a day to .75 gram twice a day. Today I went back to the original dose but she still looks uncomfortable tonight.
Rats! I hate winter! I hate laminitis! I hate it when my horse hurts! 
Sorry, just needed to vent a little.
Vicki and Diane, I feel your pain. Its so hard to know what's best for these poor dears. Wish we could somehow look into the future to know whether or not we are doing the best thing for them.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:25 am:
Jo Ann I'm so sorry to hear about Suzy. I know what you mean about venting that's why I finally got a pulling out hair Icon!
Have you ever had Suzy's blood tested for IR? What pergolide dosage is she on?
I know Dr.O. thinks our founders are caused by bruised soles initially, but I still find it hard to believe. For instance how could Sam bruise so severely in all 4 feet at the same time? and there was very little hard ground.
Of course our horses aren't the same but it seems to me Sam has something systematic going on. I know when you posted pics of Suzy she had the fat distribution just like Sam. His other cushings symptoms are under control, so I have to suspect his IR if not the black locusts. Have you got her on a strict diet? Tried soaking her hay?
I'm not so sure about the cold theory either, it has warmed up here and it made Sam no better, the vet called me on our first "warm" day and wanted to know if Sam was better, I said no, and he said I was hoping the warmer weather would bring improvement... it didn't. It is all very confusing, especially to know what to do to make them comfortable.
I feel your pain, making decisions is very hard as far as treatment and is enough enough.
Prayers for you and Suzy, hope this is just a minor set back on her road to recovery.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 9:23 am:
Oh my, Jo Ann,
So sorry to hear this news.
Hoping for stabilization and healing for Suzy.
I know how disappointing and frustrating it is to
go backward after feeling progress was happening.
All we can do is continue to closely monitor our horses and respond, to the best of our abilities, in support of their needs.
It is such hard duty having a horse in ICU type care and for me very emotionally draining.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:07 am:
Well all, there must be "something in the air." When I went out to feed this a.m., Sahira (my mare that is battling founder) was the worst she's been in a couple of weeks. Nothing has changed except that I dug out all her bedding and replaced it. She's still in very deep bedding. She was a little bit more sore yesterday, which I thought was the due to it's being a damp, crummy day with wet snow showers. Today it's sunny and beautiful. Now I'm wondering if the frog support in the pads is a little too much for her, as she's more sore on both fronts again. We're going to pare the pads down a little and see if that helps. I'll let you know.
This mare has never been overweight, but did develop the fat pads and cresty neck and is on Pergolide. She's on grass hay for the most part; once in awhile a grass/alfalfa mix. She gets a little beet pulp with her vitamins each day.
And Vicki,you're right; it's a roller coaster of emotions with these horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:18 am:
No Diane I do not think bruising alone is the likely cause, please reread my Jan 7th posting above. I do not know the cause of each of your founders, I put forth this theory as the best one that fits all the facts presented to me so far. I would be glad to entertain any additional information.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 6:26 pm:
Oh Sara --
Sorry that your mare is also having discomfort.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:07 pm:
Too bad we don't all live close to each other; we could share supplies, ideas, treatments, help each other.....and then go drink together!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:56 pm:
That would be so awesome, Sara!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:13 pm:
Sara, I will ship Sam to you with a case of wine... Oh and his boots . You have to send him back when he recovers tho!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Brilliant idea, Diane.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:59 pm:
errr..ummmm...uh.. I don't think that's quite what I meant Ladies!
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:16 pm:
Thanks everyone for your support.
The roller coaster has leveled out and even headed back up a bit today. Suz looks more comfortable and is no longer standing rocked back. I have given her 1 gram of bute this AM and repeated it again tonight. The weather broke today too - warm and sunny 
Turns out hubby had given her a flake of orchard grass hay by accident on Tuesday night. Would that be enough to set off another round of inflammation?
The hay I give her is fescue. I know, I know, fescue is not usually recommended. But it actually tested lower in NSC than the orchard grass. Its very stemmy, 2nd cutting mid-summer hay. She doesn't particularly like it, but since its all there is too eat she does usually clean it up by the time of her next feeding. I haven't soaked it this winter because it has been so cold and its so stemmy that I didn't think that there would be much nutritional value left if I did soak it. I'm sure she really enjoyed that flake of orchard grass!
Diane, I love your pulling out hair icon. To answer your questions, Suzy is on 1.5 mgs of Pergolide daily. She gets one scoop of Mare & Maintenance and enough Blue Seal Hay Stretcher pellets to deliver her bute twice a day. We did not test her blood levels prior to starting her on Pergolide. My vet diagnosed her by symptoms alone.
Sara, I'm sorry your horse is having a hard time too. I like the idea of us ALL moving south and forming a community barn. Where shall we go? Florida or Southern California? California has the better wine, but I've always been partial to the gulf coast
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 8:03 am:
Jo Ann I wondered if you had tested her insulin.. I would have never guessed sam's was that high. He was getting grass hay and timothy pellet, nothing else for sure, 3 weeks before his insulin test he was locked up.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:55 am:
CA has been a lot warmer than FL lately.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:28 am:
Ok - California has earthquakes, Florida has hurricanes - which would you rather deal with. I think it would be easier to stay away from a fault line that is prone to earthquakes.
I am staying put in Colorado (my kids all live here, end of story). However, at times I dream of taking us and the horses to our place in the desert in New Mexico (close to Roswell) in the winter. Maybe rent one of those ritzy RV's they are talking about among the folks that have tickets to WEG ...
I read diligently all about your experiences with laminitis to learn as much as possible.
Best of luck, Jo Ann and Sara,
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 11:23 am:
Good news about the improvement, Jo Ann. Hope that this will continue for your mare.
Orchard grass is listed in my book under "high glycemic," as is the fescue, but you are right about any hay varying according to when cut, etc.
Since I'm having a hard time with finding good hay, my Vet told me about some really good hay that is available (orchard grass, brome and something else), but he said that it is so rich a laminitic horse would only get a very, very little bit of it, less than a flake.
Poor quality can sometimes mean higher glycemic too, as stressed, poorly cared for pasture grasses tend to have higher glycemic rates.
Good to get the hay tested, if possible.
My Vet told me to stick with the coastal for now ("low glycemic") though he did say that it is a little bit harder to digest than timothy, which is also low glycemic.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 10:51 pm:
I thought I'd post some pictures of Suzy so you could see her body condition. Since she is an easy keeper I am very pleased with her current weight. Keep in mind that she is a very typy Morgan so she is always going to have a cresty neck. Its simply her breed in case you haven't had the chance to seen many Morgans. She is standing downhill, but you can see how she is slightly rocked back. The shavings are hiding the shape of her hooves, making her toes appear longer than they really are. That's Gus photobombing!
Here is the tail-gater's view:
Another view of her neck and shoulders:
Also, Sara generously sent me a pair of soft-ride boots to try. I ordered the inserts for laminitis support.
Apply to feet, and Viola!!!
A much more comfortable horse!!! Yea!!!
No longer standing rocked back, and negotiating turns with much greater ease! I'm going to give these a few more days trial, and if they continue to work well, order a pair of my own.
Knock on wood , I am feeling encouraged.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:14 am:
She looks pretty good for an old girl! SO GLAD the boots are helping her; I hope they continue to do so.
I went out to do my night time barn check, and poor Sahira, who's had a really good last 3 days, was very uncomfortable again, so I gave her 2gr of bute. Hope she's doing better by tomrrow. Maybe that "big storm" that's supposidly been coming in every day for the last week is actually going to arrive. I've noticed that for whatever reason, she is always worse when the barometric pressure falls. My hips have hurt all day also; guess I'll take some "bute" myself and go to bed. I hope tomorrow brings improvement for us all.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:30 am:
Yes, Suzy and I can tell the weather by our joints too. I hope you and Sahira both feel better soon!
That is another really nice feature of the soft rides. Despite having RA in my hands and wrists, I can take these boots off and on pretty easily. And that says a lot about how well designed these boots are!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 6:20 am:
I was wondering how Suzy was doing. Glad the soft rides helped her! She is very cute. How has she been otherwise?
Sara, sorry to hear about Sahira, I thought after 3 good days with Sam I was "out of the woods" guess 3 days isn't enough. The weather doesn't seem to effect him one way or another, except whether he gets Ice cube hay or just soaked hay!
If it wasn't for Perry I would start to wonder if this wasn't a bad year for horses with S names
Sahira, Sam ,suzy, sugar.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 7:25 am:
Glad Suzy is more comfortable. She's a nice looking girl.
Geez, glad I don't have any horses with names that start with"S"...of course Willow's registered name does..hope that don't count!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:39 pm:
Pretty girl, Jo Ann!
Here's hoping that she will continue to do well.
Hope likewise for all of our laminitis horses, and sore owners! Take care Sara.
We have some threat of potentially severe weather here today and tonight. Tornado threats are all the more dreaded when one has a sick horse stalled up so hope it does not come to a watch or warning, though the weather people say conditions are right.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 10:18 pm:
Thanks everyone. I'm pretty fond of the old girl!
Diane, I had not made the "S" connection. Hmm...
Hope everyone's weather, horses and health improve.
We will be traveling to Indiana this weekend to visit my sister-in-law Marty. She has been fighting metastatic breast cancer for almost three years now, but has had a series of setbacks this winter. My brother called and said that she is declining rapidly, so this will likely be our last visit with her. Its very hard for me to imagine our family without Marty. A very sad time, but I am glad we are getting this chance to say goodbye.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 10:44 pm:
JoAnn, I'm, so sorry about your sister. (((( many hugs))))) Travel safely. Our thoughts are with you. If you were closer I'd offer to horse-sit Suzy for you. What's one more? Take care.
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 11:12 pm:
Wishing you enough love, strength, and comfort to sustain you and your family for the future.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 6:49 am:
Jo Ann so sorry about your sister in law, hugs to you and your brother. Have a safe trip.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 7:12 am:
Jo-Ann, very sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. My thoughts are with you and your family during this very sad time.
I wish you were travelling this way under happier circumstances because if you were, I'd invite you to swing by, if your brother's wasn't too far away. I'll leave the invite open for another time.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:29 am:
Jo-Ann - I am so sorry to hear the sad news about your sister-in-law. My daughter is a cancer survivor (leukemia as a teen) and I know so well how devastating this disease can be.
Take care, and I hope your will find everything well upon your return.
Lilo
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 11:55 am:
So sorry about the sad circumstances of your trip, Jo-Ann. Cancer is a tough journey. I hope your sister in law's spirits are lifted by having loved ones with her.
Erika
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:54 pm:
My thoughts are with you and your family JoAnn as you travel to Indiana. Wish it could be under better circumstances. Be careful.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 2:41 pm:
Thinking of you and your family, Jo Ann and hope that you have a meaningful gathering. Be safe.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 1:06 am:
Thanks everyone for your kind thoughts and wishes. We are back home now. All the animals, including Suzy, did fine while we were away.
Sadly, my sister-in-love passed away before we were able to see her. We were delayed by ice on I-81, and didn't get into my dad's in Indiana until 11:30 PM. We planned to go to my brothers the next morning, only to have the phone ring shortly after midnight. It was my brother Paul calling to tell us that Marty had died at 11:45 that evening. She was at home with my brother and several of the children (thankfully now all adults) and her passing, while sooner than expected, was peaceful.
We will all miss her so much. She was a lovely, lovely person. At 63, she and my brother had been married 42 years, having been sweethearts since high school. My brother appeared to be holding up fairly well, although I can only imagine the magnitude of his loss.
Thank you Fran, for your offer. My brother lives in Indianapolis, but I may make it up your way sometime as I have an old friend in Holland.
I hope to read about what's been happening on HA tomorrow. We are expecting to be snowed in, so as long as we have cable and power it should be a good time to catch up.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 10:09 am:
My condolences to you and your brother and his family. So sad, how cancer affects so many. There are hopeful signs with all the research going on, but unfortunately, cancer has so many different causes.
Take care,
Lilo
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 4:39 pm:
My deepest condolences, Jo Ann. I am sorry that you didn't get a chance to say goodbye, but it sounds like Marty passed away peacefully, surrounded by many that she loved.
If you ever make it up here, you will always be welcome.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 1:40 pm:
Thanks Lilo and Fran. Fran, I would love to meet you and your beautiful Sparkles some day.
We are sooo snowed in! What gives with this winter? Another huge snow for us, I think it must be about 14 inches. This is very powdery stuff and so its blown around a bit more than the last. Unfortunately our tractor's battery died and the snow is too much for our truck to get out. Hubby has decided to walk down to the auto store . I told him that was going to be quite a hike in this snow, but his cabin fever has truly kicked in so off he went.
Suzy is continuing to do well in her soft ride boots. I'm going to order her a pair of her very own on Monday . I'm a little uncertain about the size. The 4s are wider than her hoof, but the next size down (5) is really going to be close. Perhaps the sales rep will be able to help me decide what will be the best choice.
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Member:
lynnea
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 3:03 pm:
I also am sorry for your loss of your sister-in-law....So glad she passed away peacefully, at home and with those she loved. Those left behind now need the comfort and love from the rest of you. And it sounds like they will have it.
I just wanted to tell you I used the soft ride boots on my horse and they did work wonders. He developed laminitis at 29..from what we were not sure but he had never had even a touch of it all of his life, until then. He did develop cushings at 25 and I amsure it was a contributing factor..He also was on pergolide, but between bute and those boots he was pain free. It is such a difficult problem, and with all the research going on there is still no definite answer. I followed all the guidelines to avoid laminitis and it still hit him...He was a Morgan too and I know they are suppose to have a propensity toward laminitis, because they are such easy keepers. The size on those boots is tricky, I tried 2 pair , I believe 4 and the 5, because the soft ride people told me to and I sent the one back that didn't work. That would probably be a good idea for Suzy...I wish you great luck with her.she is a beautiful Morgan and I have always loved the older type...that's all I have ever had..If you have time I would love to know her breeding.......a hug for Suzy.....
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 3:07 pm:
Jo Ann, I am very sorry to hear about your sister-in-law. Good thoughts to you and your family...including animals, of course!
Kathy
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:15 pm:
Thanks Lynne and Kathy.
Lynne, Suzy was the last foal born on my parent's farm after raising three generations of Morgans. Her registered name is Whit Haven Suzette. Her sire was Whit Haven Valor by Applevale Boy King. Her dam was Whit Haven Donita by Wind-Crest Bennington. She traces back to Upwey Ben Don and Pecos on both her sire and dam's side. She has a bit of Brunk breeding, other than that it is all old New England lines.
I'm glad you were able to manage your horse with the boots and Pergolide. Morgans tend to be long lived, so I would love to get this laminitis under control so that Suzy can enjoy her "golden years."
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:18 pm:
So very sorry for your loss, Jo Ann.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 12:35 am:
JoAnn, I've been out of town a few days and am catching up. I'm so sorry to hear of your sister-in-laws passing. I know it must be a very difficult time for your family. I'm glad the weather allowed you to be with your brother for a little while. Healing thoughts and prayers to you all.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 1:16 am:
Thanks Vicki and Sara. Yes, we were lucky to be able to travel when we did. Both before and after our trip the roads have been icy and hazardous. Tonight it is sleeting on top of the snow that we got over the weekend. We are having a real old time winter this year.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughts for my family everyone. We have been preparing for my sister's passing for a long time, but its still such a huge loss for everyone. So many people have been so kind in their support. It helps a lot.
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