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  Discussion on Dramatic weight loss, Cushings?
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New Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 6, 2010 - 9:08 pm:

Storm has lost probably 200 lb since October. He is very, very thin. His appetite is good, he eats, drinks, pees and poops normally. He eats about 4 qts of Triple Crown Senior twice a day along with free choice hay. I added a third feeding of about 4 quarts (after soaking) of beet pulp with soy oil (no molasses). Storm does have a very long winter coat. On physical exam he had no temp, heart and lungs sounded good. His teeth have been regularly floated and are fine. My vet took blood yesterday to test for Cushings, liver and kidney function, etc. The liver and kidney function results were back today. They were fine. His white blood cell count was 12, the high end of normal and his nutraphil count was elevated. We will have the other results in a few days. I started him on SMZs tonight due to the indication of a possible bacterial infection. I am hoping and praying for Cushings because at the rate that he is losing weight if we can't get this turned around soon, I will surely lose him.

My questions are: In retrospect, he probably did have quite a coat last winter, too, and was slow to shed last spring, so he may have had an issue for quite a while. Is Cushings likely to cause this kind of dramatic weight loss?
Say it is Cushings and we get him on Pergolide next week. Will the Pergolide help him to put weight back on? How should I go about trying to get weight on him when he is already eating so much? He shows no sign of foundering or even of being laminitic, but I certainly wouldn't want to cause that.
Any experience, strength and hope will be appreciated. I love this horse more than anything. He is my soul mate.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 12:09 am:

Hi PTowne, I don't have the answers to your questions, but I do want to welcome you to Horse Advice. Dr. O will likely have an answer for you tomorrow.

You didn't mention your horses age, but since he is on senior feed I am assuming that he is an older horse. You say that he is thin. Do you know what his estimated weight or body condition score are? That information would likely be helpful to Dr. O.

Its a very good sign that kidney and liver values are normal. If he is an older horse with a long hair coat and slow to shed, cushings is very likely. Dr. O can tell you more about how quickly pergolide would help with regaining a healthy weight and how to safely add weight on a horse with cushings. In the mean time, you can read the cushings articles and pick up a lot of good information.

If your horse is started on pergolide and you need a source on where to get it at an affordable price, let us know. Several of us have older horses on pergolide and we have located the pharmacies with quality product and service at the best price!

My only advice would be to make sure that Storm has access to good shelter so that he is not having to spend a lot of calories just staying warm.

It sounds as if your vet is doing a good work-up, treating any infection will certainly help, and you have found a great source of information and support with this site, so try not to worry. Easier said than done, I know.

Again, welcome!
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 1:45 am:

In my old mare, her Cushings synDrOme was marked by a heavy intake of water, and then, a corresponding increase in urination. She showed many signs of depression ( hangdog look, no interest in her surroundings ), and, she lost all the muscle from her topside. This muscle wasting radically altered her appearance.

Her feet always seemed ouchy, and her coat was dull, dry and long....especially long in some areas.
Her coat also turned curly in certain areas. Her appetite was abysmal. She seemed tired all the time.

This is just what I noted before her diagnosis. Pergolide did bring her around.

Best of luck to you, hopefully you can get this problem solved.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 6:41 am:

Welcome PTowne,
Assuming your diet indicates an aged horse, certainly it is possible, maybe even likely, that your horse has Cushings. If he does pergolide might help some. But such acute weight loss is not likely to be Cushings related alone.

Before we start making recommendations I have some more questions:
  • What type hay are you feeding?
  • What is the quality of the hay?
  • What is the daily weight of hay fed?
  • Has a fecal float test been run on your horse?

DrO
New Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 7:14 pm:

DrO, thanks for responding. Storm is turning 24. He is eating first cut grass hay, free choice, average quality. I don't have a daily weight as he has as much as he will eat. It probably isn't great hay, but it isn't bad and isn't significantly different from what he has eaten with me for the past 9 years.

My vet has not done a fecal float yet. Storm has been wormed regularly (6 times a year) and she doesn't think it is parasite related. I was concerned and did an extra worming with Equimax about 4 weeks ago.

I have been searching my memory of Storm for the past year or more. He did have quite a coat last winter that took longer than any of the other horses to shed. His winter coat used to be beautiful, thick and shiny like plush on a stuffed toy. This winter it is still thick, but is quite long so it lays down and doesn't stand out like it did before. I have 4 of them out together so I don't know what Storm's individual water intake is, but I have noticed that I have to fill the tank more frequently than before. It is a medium to large rubbermaid tank, probably 120 gallons or so. The four of them (2 horses and 2 ponies) just about empty it every 2 to 2 1/2 days. I honestly don't know how much Storm is peeing. They are out with blankets and run ins. Storm has a history of abuse and neglect and is claustrophobic so a stall is out of the question for him.

Oh, and, what is nutraphil?

Pam
New Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 7:17 pm:

I suppose it is possible that he has had Cushings for some time and it is getting much worse. Does that sound reasonable?

I can't wait for the rest of the test results. The blood sample for the Cushings test was overnighted to Cornell. The office staff said that the results will be faxed. My vet will call as soon as she gets the results.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:16 am:

Certainly it is possible, but such acute weight loss is not likely to be Cushings related alone. And this may well be a combination of health and management factors that have all come to a head. If he has significant Cushings, then pergolide will help you some. In the meantime you need to be sure you maximize his nutrition and management while your veterinarian pursues all possible causes, for more on this see Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss. Note that regular use of a dewormer does not insure this is not a problem, on the weight loss menu above, check out larval cyathistomiasis.

Your first step PTowne toward safely and effectively increasing the calories in your horses diet would be to increase the quality of the forage, after all this is THE major component of your horses diet. I would see if you can find a very good leafy second cutting that is 50% alfalfa but introduce it slowly into your horses diet. Turning back to your concentrate what would the weight be at each feeding?
DrO
Member:
mjq1

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 9:08 am:

Hi Ptowne, Here is what I feed my 32 year old, who has cushings. He is normally a 900lb Arabian gelding and it is amazing what he needs in the winter. He gets highest quality alfalfa/orchard grass hay, 4lbs senior feed am/pm, (p.m. mash consisting of 1lb beet pulp, 2lbs Alfalfa pellets-3/4lb wheat bran, 2oz salt) Additionally, he is on daily wormer which really helps him absorb all his nutrients. He gets 1ml pergolide, and one dose of Animed Anigest which provides live yeast to help the gut. The beet pulp will put the weight on better than anything. The way to give him a correct Ca/Phos balance is for every pound of beet pulp/alfalfa pellet you add 1/4lb of bran. This receipe I got from the Horse Journal years ago and it has NEVER FAILED to put weight on any horse. So, if you want to give him 2lbs of beet pulp you add 1/2 lb bran. Oh, make sure you soak the beet pulp mash for at least 1 hour in the hottest water you can. Hope it helps.
New Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 11:06 am:

He gets 4 lb of Triple Crown Senior morning and night and 4 lb (soaked weight) of beet pulp with soy oil in the afternoon.

I am not sure I can fine and alfalfa hay, but I will look for some. We don't typically feel alfalfa to horses in Vermont and most of the alfalfa there is goes to dairy cattle. I will also look for alfalfa cubes. In the meantime, I will get some good 2nd cut hay just for him.

I will also have a fecal done to be on the safe side.

What else could cause this type of weight loss?

Thanks,
Pam
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:28 pm:

Dr. O, would Blue Seal hay stretcher pellets be an appropriate choice if no hay can be located? My horses love them!

BTW PTowne, a neutrophil is a type of white blood cell.
New Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 8:43 pm:

I got Storm's test results this afternoon. His ACTH level was 79.4 and his insulin was 40. We started him on 1 ml of Pergolide tonight. I can't get any alfalfa hay, so I bought a bag of alfalfa cubes at the feed store this afternoon. I will start giving him some tomorrow to supplement the hay.

I do understand your concern with his nutrition and calories, DrO, but I have had Storm for 9 years. He isn't exactly an easy keeper but what he is eating now is what he has done very well on for years. I find it difficult to understand how just a hay that may be a bit lower nutritional content could cause him to lose 200 lb in such a short time. My vet did look at the hay and had me show her what I feed him, the grain and the quantity. My other horse is a very hard keeping 19 year old TB mare. She's eating the same thing, same hay, everything and she looks great. The two ponies who get a handful of hay pellets twice a day and the same hay that Storm eats and are fat little tubs.

I am so hoping that the Pergolide and the SMZs for the bacterial infection that he probably has will get him stablized so he can put some of that weight back on.

Monica - thanks for sharing with me what you feed your horse. It looks very close to what Storm is/will be getting now that I picked up alfalfa cubes today; all except the bran. DrO, should I add the bran since I am adding alfalfa cubes?

Thanks everyone for your concern, good wishes and advice. I will keep you posted on how Storm does.

Pam
Member:
mjq1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:41 am:

PTowne, Beet pulp and Alfalfa are both high in Calcium, wheat bran just balances the Calcium with the correct amount of Phosphorus. Also, the bran will add calories to Storm's diet. Don't use rice bran or any bran product that has had it's Cal/ph balanced. Just plain old wheat bran. I also pasted in a small article where a writer was asking the vet of the The Horse advice on her gelding who was similar to your case. Monica

Please help. No matter who we talk to we can't seem to figure out what's going on with my daughter's 14-year-old American Saddlebred gelding. He is losing weight, but he is eating everything in sight, and as of last week he started scraping his teeth on the bars and boards of his stall, which he has never done before.

About two months ago we moved him to a new barn. The main difference in this barn is that he can have some contact with the horses on both sides of him. He doesn't get turned out at all, as he is a show horse and he doesn't like to be outside. My daughter only rides him about a half-hour every other day, so it's not a hard workout for him.

We have had him tested for insulin resistance, and results came back as borderline, so we changed his feed from receiving two scoops of Strategy twice daily, along with free-choice hay, to one scoop at each meal and only two flakes of hay. That's when I noticed he started to lose weight.

So my question is what could be causing him to lose weight so rapidly, and why is he scraping his teeth on the boards? We really need some help here. We've talked to our vet, and he seems to be just as baffled about it as we are. Could the scraping of the teeth be that he's just bored or needs his teeth floated, or that he's missing my daughter? And as for the drastic weight loss, I'm just thinking he needs to be fed more.

Julie Kercher





The rapid weight loss you describe can be due to various causes. I am not exactly clear on the timeline, but I assume the problem started before you had the insulin resistance checked and reduced the feed. And I am assuming the weight loss is more rapid than you would expect with the feed reduction alone. So while reduced feed, of course, would be contributing to some continued weight loss, you expect something else is going on with this gelding.

Some of the physical causes that come to mind are gastric ulcers and liver disease. So be sure to have the horse checked for gastric ulcers. But what is more worrisome to me is that weight loss and sudden behavior changes, including the scraping of the teeth on bars that you describe, can also in rare cases be signs of liver disease. In such a case weight loss is due to liver malfunction, which can affect the brain. This can result in unique behavior changes and the emergence of unusual behaviors.

I've known of only a few horses that raked their teeth on the bars of the stall front in that manner. Three had liver disease and I was able to closely observe them: they displayed very unpredictable aggression and sudden changes in mood and mentation. Bloodwork could clear this up.

You asked about environmental and social causes. I'm fairly certain that the behavior changes as I understand them from your description are not just the result of boredom or "missing your daughter."

Dr. Sue McDonald, PHD

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Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 12:59 pm:

PTowne, whenever a horse has a rapid change in condition on a diet he has been on for a long time, I become concerned also. When this happens it is important to look for possible causes including diseases. But no matter what the cause the problem boils down to one simple fact: the horse is taking in fewer nutrients than required by the body to maintain condition. The largest part of your horses diet is his hay so it is the most important source of these nutrients. If the protein or energy content DrOps below the necessary amount to keep up condition weight loss follows. There is no doubt increased age, possible Cushings, and the colder than average winter are also contributing to your horse's changing needs. We will hope there is nothing more serious because we can address these I have listed. I find little evidence in your posts that some occult bacterial infection is contributing however. You total WBC count was normal and neutrophilia is part of the constellation of lab changes often seen with Cushings (see the article on Cushings for more on this).

In the meantime, no matter what the cause, while you sort out the possible causes it is important to find a nutritional regimen that gets your horses condition back up. Poorer quality hay is the number one reason I see horses loose weight and it usually happens in the winter, when there is often an increased need for energy.

You grass hay will be borderline low in calcium and the alfalfa OK in phosphorus so will probably balance out OK but to be sure the weight of each of these feedstuffs fed over a 24 hour period would be needed to do the calculations. If unbalanced bran is a good way to balance them however.
DrO
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 9:26 pm:

Thank you for your responses. My vet suggested starting out by substituting alfalfa cubes for the equivalent of one flake of hay working up to 2. Would it hurt, help or be a draw to add oil or rice bran pellets?
Pam
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 9:10 am:

One (wo)man's flake is another (wo)man's bale, you will do a better job if you do this by weight and keep a running calender of your changes.

At first I would recommend you start simply adding the alfalfa, not substitute it, as long as the horse will clean it up. Why reduce forage if if the horse is in a negative weight gain. Only when the horse stops cleaning up the alfalfa do you start to limit the grass hay to encourage eating the alfalfa. I would avoid oil until the protein is up and would prefer you up your balanced low carb concentrate than add a bit of this (beet pulp) and a touch of that (rice bran pellets) making balancing the diet very difficult.

You can read about the step wise decision making process on what and when to add the various concentrated feedstuffs for difficult keepers in the article I reference above. But these questions you ask of us are ultimately best decided by you and your veterinarian. Reading your posts will never give us the same amount of information you can get looking at your horse, feed, and management situation. But you know what you are looking for. If this all seems a bit odd, start with the basic nutrition article then branch out to the more specific topics, it may make it all fall into place better.
DrO
Member:
mjq1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 10:46 am:

PTowne, Don't worry about 'balancing' everything right now, Just add the alfalfa, get the calories into him. If he does not like the alfalfa pellets or cubes, mix them with his grain and hot water to make it easier to eat. If you do decide to add beet pulp/bran, do not use rice bran. Rice bran is an excellent feed source, but the Ca/PH has been adjusted to balance. The reason you use wheat bran is that wheat bran ADDS phos, and balances out the relative higher levels of Calcium that are in alfalfa and beet pulp. With all that said, most adult horses can eat nothing but alfalfa and do just fine with nothing to adjust the phos levels. As Dr. O said, the grass hay, fed along side the alfalfa hay is probably a suitable balance.
Member:
erika

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 11:20 am:

PTowne, I had a similar problem with an older gelding some years back. He had difficulty chewing the hay efficiently. I found that he really loved Dengie HiFi, a bagged, chopped forage. He thrived on it too, and required much less of it than I was giving him in "real" hay.

He didn't love pellets, but the Dengie was eagerly received by him. I think it was more like natural food to him--he felt like he was eating hay instead of mush, I guess!
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 2:35 pm:

I wanted to post an update. My old Storm is coming back. He isn't just shooting ugly looks at the ponies as they try to sneak up for a bite of his food. He runs them off again, just like old times. Yeah! He is eating well. He will eat the pergolide if it is in soaked beet pulp with a little molasses. I know it will take time, but I am encouraged. I do believe the weight will come.

He is getting fed 3 times a day, TC Senior morning and early evening and a late evening feed of the soaked beet pulp with molasses and pergolide. I've added the alfalfa cubes also. He does get hay free choice, so the alfalfa is extra, not a hay substitute.

Thanks everyone for your help and support.
Pam
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 7:15 pm:

Glad Storm is feeling better!! I will get the gourmeds off either tomorrow of Mon. Hope he will eat it. No need to send the previcox... I have a whole case of equioxx, but thanks for the offer Be sure to let us know if he eats them... My other gelding who isn't suppose to be on pergolide wolfed Sam's gourmed right down... when I wasn't looking.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:26 pm:

Great news, Pam!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 11:39 am:

Very Good Pam!
DrO
Member:
mjq1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 9:52 pm:

Excellent!!!
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 12:18 am:

Nice to hear good news.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 11:11 am:

Pam I couldn't find your E-mail again... so just so you know I UPS the gourmeds and they should arrive Thurs they said... remember they are 1.5 mg's
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 4:14 pm:

Yea!
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 9:57 pm:

I had to share. I took Storm's blanket off today to see how his weight is coming. I was so happy to see he had gained. He has put weight/muscle back on his butt already. It seems awfully quick to me, but I'll take it. I guess he really needed that Pergolide. I really believe he would have died if we hadn't diagnosed him and gotten him on the medicine. I am so very happy to see him getting better. Thank you all so much for your support.
Pam
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 10:11 pm:

Good News!! Yeah!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 8:30 am:

Good News, hope he continues to improve
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 11:24 am:

That is wonderful news, Pam!

Congratulations!
Member:
paul303

Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 8:00 pm:

Wonderful!
New Member:
ptowne

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2011 - 9:54 pm:

I lost Storm in April. He didn't do so well over the winter. We were just going to pull blood again to check his ACTH levels when he coliced. We worked for two days trying to save him, but it wasn't to be. When his pain became more than banamine could relieve, we let him go. He was a very good horse who did everything ever asked of him, willingly and to the best of his ability. I will hold him in my heart for the rest of my life. I hope to see him again one day.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 12:19 am:

I'm so sorry. It is never easy to loose a good friend. Be assured he is in good company. As you may know, many of us have lost horses and other animals we loved so we know well your pain. Take the lessons Storm gave you, remember the good times, and know that you did everything you possibly could for him. You were obviously a good friend to him. God bless.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 12:43 am:

I'm so sorry for your loss Pam. (((Pam)))
Member:
shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 1:16 am:

My condolences in your loss of your good friend.
So very sorry.

Shirl
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 6:55 am:

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss, Pam. My condolances~
Fran
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 7:45 am:

My deepest condolences Pam,
DrO
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 10:03 am:

Pam,
Rest assured that Storm is in a place with all the horses that we have loved and lost and is out of pain and is awaiting the day you will join him. So sorry for your loss.
Kathy
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 10:08 am:

My condolences, Pam. There comes a time when the right thing to do is to let go. It is never easy to take animals into our hearts, knowing that we will have to make the hard decisions some day .....
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 10:46 am:

So sorry to hear this.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2011 - 12:30 am:

So sorry. Hopefully by now your grief has been replaced by fond memories of the wonderful warmth this horse brought to your life.
Member:
divamare

Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2011 - 11:42 pm:

So sorry to read of your loss. Never easy to lose a loved one.
New Member:
ptowne

Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2011 - 8:18 pm:

Thank you all so much for your kind words. It helps to share with people who appreciate the bond we have with our horses.
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