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  Discussion on Laminitis
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Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 11:00 pm:

On Monday my Arab, Perry, bumped his ribs or hip exiting his stall when Buddy surprised him. Later that day he seemed sore and wasn't moving that great so the next Morning I gave him some Bute, which I did for a couple of days, but he hadn't had any the past two days.

I wasn't thinking laminitis because I heard him hurt himself and I didn't detect any bounding pulses or extra heat. Now I'm worried that he had started with the laminitis sooner than I realized and there I was giving him Bute while he was turned out.

Perhaps standing or walking funny after he hit himself encouraged laminitis to come on?

This morning he was really slow to come up to the barn and his stance made me worry about laminitis but he really wasn't as depressed or seeming to be in as much pain as when I have had laminitis or abscesses in horses in the past.

His coronet bands did seem slightly swollen though and there was heat in his feet, so I figured I better treat it as laminitis and got him into a deeply bedded stall and gave him some Bute. I put ice wraps on his feet and legs a couple of thimes but they still seemed pretty hot even after icing.

This evening my Vet observed bounding pulses in the front feet and, after using the hoof testers said he has laminitis in the front feet. X-rays showed a very small amount of rotation in the right front, so there is already some damage done, though my Vet seems to think we caught it quickly. I hope so.

He is overweight and has been for years, but perhaps it has finally caught up with him.

He goes out and searches for any acorns that he can find. There has also been such strange weather that was warmer than normal until recently plus more rain than usual for winter here so there has actually been some grass to eat right through December and into January. Perhaps that added to the problem as well. Now for the past several days it has been very cold with frost to the grass and then a hard freeze.

My Vet told me to cut his food and hay by a third, but up until now they have all had pretty much all the hay that they could care for or want to eat.

Any suggestions on how much coastal hay I should give him?

My Vet. also said to eliminate his Corta-Flx as such supplements containing glucosamine are not good to use when a horse has laminitis.

Bute twice daily and eight 400 mg Pentoxifylline tablets twice daily.

Oh, joy.

Perry is very bad about refusing to swallow medicines that are foul-tasting so this will be a challenge.

Wouldn't you know, my Vet. was due to come tomorrow evening to give the horses their rabies shots, so will put that off, but he is going to check him again tomorrow as my neighbor and I had scheduled him to come out then so he will be in my neighborhood anyway.

Guess I better get to studying your weight loss suggestions, Diane.

Record cold coming and there is even a prediction for ice pellets and snow flurries Saturday morning -- in Florida!
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Jan 7, 2010 - 11:55 pm:

I'm sorry you've got a horse with laminitis, Vicki. Welcome to the club no one wants to belong to.

My horse hates medicines too. Here are some of the techniques I've tried:

Hide bute in apple sections. I know sugars are forbidden with laminitis but an apple slice is not that much.

Dissolve bute in applesause and syringe into horse's mouth.

Dissolve bute in alfalfa pellets.

The last is the technique I am currently using. I also mix in some U-Gard to help protect her stomach while she is on bute. I think that it helps mask the taste a bit.

Good luck. I hope Perry's is a mild case.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:20 am:

Geezzz....we should start a club! There are quite a few on HA battling this same problem this year. Are all our horses just getting old? Or is it tyed into the weird and extra cold weather?

Good luck Vickie! Diane has done great getting the weight off her horses, which if they are like mine was no easy task.

Have you tried mixing Perry's meds with applesauce and squirting into his mouth with a large syringe? It's the only way I can get any drugs down one of our stallions.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:36 am:

Thanks for the suggestions, Jo Ann and Sara.

It sounds like I will be giving these drugs for a good while, and as time goes by he really tends to get stubborn so I may have to use a number of techniques before we are finished.

My cousin in Minnesota said his horses always seemed to get their laminitis when the weather was really tough.

Cold weather when doctoring horses certainly makes it memorable.

My hands are raw already.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:07 am:

I'm sorry to hear this Vicki, we get through spring and fall and now we have to worry about winter laminitis.

I melt the bute in an oz. of water and pour it over their pellet mush and stir vigorously, that hasn't failed me yet with any of them.

The cold and wind was so bad yesterday I could hardly stand being out long enough to clean Sams stall out.

I have no idea how to get weight off when it's brutally cold out. When my horses are on a winter diet, I don't feel bad cutting their hay back until it goes under 20 degrees. After that I feed for weather. When it warms up above 20 degrees the diet returns.

Hope Perry feels better soon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:24 am:

Vicki, sorry to hear about your horses troubles. Roughly 2/3 of a average horse's daily forage by weight would be:
(0.67)(0.025)(bodyweight)
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:59 pm:

Thanks Dr. O and Diane.

Things have been going so well with the horses for a few months, I sort of felt recently like it might be too good to last.

I got Bute paste and put it into Perry's mouth this morning before giving him any pellets and then dumped about half of his pellet ration into his food bucket.

This time he did swallow the Bute, thank goodness, and eventually began picking at the pellets without really eating them due to the bad taste in his mouth.

I took the crushed Pentoxifylline pills and mixed them with 3 - 4 teaspoons of strawberry apple sauce and mixed that good first with a few pellets, gradually adding all of the remaining pellet ration, and dumped that on top of the half portion of pellets remaining in his dish.

Wonderfully, he ate the whole concoction. I was hoping this would work because Perry is one of those boys who doesn't like to feel forced to do things and after a few days he becomes increasingly stubborn about his medications.

He is kind of depressed today in spite of the 2 grams of Bute.

Starting tomorrow I am supposed to try 1 gram twice daily so that should be interesting.

He has some boots on belonging to my Vet, that due to the interiors take some stress off the tendon.

It is kind of hard to tell how things are really going when the horse is in boots and deep shavings.

I am supposed to remove the boots to shake out any shavings every other day.

It will be interesting to see what my Vet thinks when he stops by later today.

He seems to think that I will have Perry stalled for sometime and I am supposed to use up all of the pills until they are gone, which will take 25 days.

Thanks so much for both of your comments about the feeding of hay and weight loss.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 4:06 pm:

Good Luck Vicki, keep us in the loop about Perry. Might be something in his treatment that could help us all.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 8:58 pm:

My Vet examined Perry late this afternoon and said that he is "about the same, maybe slightly better," but the main point being that he is "not any worse."

Perry seemed a little depressed at times today but he was also playful when I was adding bedding to his stall. He is obviously already bored.

My Vet figures that Perry will be confined for 3 - 4 months. He is in a 12 x 24 stall, which is my "sick stall."

To me that is quite a sentence but I guess if he gets well it will be worth it. He has been laid up that long before (hoof avulsion) but not to the point that I couldn't at least take him out a bit in a controlled area to graze on some grass.

My Vet brought me a bottle of Durasole and told me to put it on Perry's soles no more than every other day if they begin to get soft in the boots. He put some on his feet today. If the frog starts to get soft in the boots the Durasole can be applied to the frog.

I thought these boots had some kind of angle raising the hoof but now I don't think so. But he is in very deep shavings.

The boots my Vet put on him are available through the following site: www.softride.com Perry is in a size 7.

My Vet has instructed absolutely no trimming of any kind to Perry's feet until his condition is determined to be stable. He did say that though Perry is in need of a trim his feet are in good condition and well-balanced. They are also extremely hard. He said it is important to not let the feet get soft while laminitis is active. My Vet wants to recheck Perry and again X-ray in two weeks.

It took some cajoling to get Perry to eat his pills with his pellets tonight, but he seemed to understand that I wanted him to do it and nothing else was forthcoming until he did so. And he was getting hungry since I have cut his food and hay back.

He was really happy to see his hay arrive after he did his duty of eating the medicine and pellets.

My Vet seems to think that Perry will do okay on the 1 gram of Bute twice daily, which is what we start with tomorrow. Hoping that he is right . . .
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 9:17 pm:

Thanks for the report Vicki... 3-4 mos. of stall rest? WOW. Sounds like Perry is doing as good as can be expected.

I know what your vet means about their hooves getting soft in the boots, Hanks got terribly soft even with durasole or betadine applied. How long does he have to be in the boots? Did your vet say why just deep bedding wasn't sufficient? Just trying to draw off of experiences people have...that actually have vets.

Keeping fingers crossed for Perry
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 12:55 am:

https://www.soft-ride.com/ is the correct addy. And Diane, these are the boots I was talking about, not "easy rider" which I think I said. Sorry.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:05 am:

Vickie, Perry will probably do better than you think with the stall rest. Several years ago one of our stallions was severly injured. He managed to pull out of his halter and go into the barn and tried to get at another stallion. Long story short, he was so badly injured vet thought at first he'd have to put him down. He had 6 mos. of stall rest, then hand walking. When the vet said to hand walk, I figured my life was over.

Amazingly, Mikey did really good. I did go in and groom him, play with him, medicate and change his bandages, etc. each day. All the attention helped. There was a big discussion here on HA some time ago with a lot of ideas on how to keep a horse occupied in a stall. One thing I did do was put three hay bags inside each other then fill it with hay for him to pick at. If you find the article, maybe you'll find ideas that will help your guy's mind stay busy.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 11:41 am:

Diane,

My Vet explained to me about the process of re-growing a new hoof and how long that takes, and that sometimes there can be some amount of re-attachment.

He apparently looks at the early weeks as most critical in the process where very careful management will have a big impact on the eventual outcome.

If he decides that Perry's condition is stabilized, perhaps in a couple of weeks or slightly longer, at that time we may be able to do some trimming and perhaps quit using the boots. We may then also temporarily put on shoes and he said what may happen is a pair of regular shoes put on backward, and this agrees with what my farrier sometimes does.

My farrier and this same Vet managed a founder for a friend of mine, which was a grain overload founder. I have to call my friend and ask her how long her horse was confined. In that case, shoes were never necessary. And I don't know whether the farrier took the heels down to realign the coffin bone with the ground, which is something that my Vet has talked about eventually doing. There was a minor amount of rotation in the case of my friend's horse, but the horse came out of the entire ordeal in absolutely great condition, and I don't think that boots were ever used either.

My farrier generally seems to feel that X-rays are unnecessary to his management of a founder case, though my Vet seems to think differently.

In any event, it sounds as though my Vet intends to keep Perry confined for sometime, but he did say the shavings won't have to be as deep later on during the confinement.

Thanks Sara, for posting the correct link and also
for your other ideas.

In his earlier life, Perry spent a lot of time in a stall and I think that taught him to appreciate his freedom a lot. But he is a playful guy so I can likely use some of these creative ideas to keep him entertained.

No matter what, it certainly is labor intensive having a horse stalled, and doctoring long term.

I am trying to find ways to make this recuperation positive for me as well as Perry in the weeks (can't bear to say "months") ahead.

Having a horse stalled long-term, 24-hours a day makes me just plain uneasy.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:11 pm:

Vicki,
As a way to keep you and Perry occupied while he is stall bound, you might want to clicker train him, if he isn't already. There are a lot of things you can teach him even if its in a confined space.

I will assume he is on a restricted diet, so you might need to be creative in what you use for his treats. Under normal circumstances I use part of my horses daily concentrate ration and then reduce what he gets during his normal meals. You may be able to do the same thing or find low cal treats that he would be willing to 'work' for. Clicker training makes the horse think and might be just the ticket to keeping him entertained.

Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 4:37 pm:

Thanks for that idea, Rachelle.

Perry is a very smart and playful boy and this might be just perfect!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 5:36 pm:

Well, heard back from my friend that her horse was laid up for at least three months. That sounds so long. UGH!

Trying to look on the bright side . . .

This should help me to get Perry's weight down as I am forced to stall him so he cannot eat acorns or overdo the hay placed out for all of the horses?

Looking back, Perry had been hanging under the trees in an area where there is presumably nothing to eat quite a lot lately but I didn't think too much of it because they like to hang there and nap in the shade. Today I saw Lance eating something out there so went to investigate. There are lots of acorns out there on the ground.

I am thinking overweight horse plus a large bounty of acorns plus injury to hip and ribs (on the same side where I believe he had 3 of them injured/probably cracked earlier in the summer) = laminitis. The foot most affected is diagonal from his old rib injury, which makes sense.

So far Perry seems to be doing well and no great change observed with the reduction in Bute today.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:33 pm:

Did you know that acorns are toxic to horses? There is an article on this site.

https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/151105.html

One of the threads includes a link to this page. https://ohioline.osu.edu/b762/b762_25.html

It doesn't sound like this is related to your horses current condition.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:39 pm:

It does take awhile to grow a new hoof, I didn't keep Hank in that long. I did keep him in a small area so he wouldn't do anything too stupid. I think it helped him to get out and be with the herd. I kept him in the dry lot with boots on. Of course he is the "boss" so didn't have to worry about anyone bullying him. I also hand walked him in his boots which seemed to help more than hinder him(after he stabalized). They are all different tho. And it depends on the severity of the rotation, at this point it doesn't sound like Perry's is too bad. I hope his next x-rays show no more rotation.

In Dr.O.'s article it says after 6 mos. riding can begin if the rotation wasn't bad. After Hank had half his hoof grown out I rode him lightly, but he was pretty much out of riding for a good year.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:46 pm:

Are acorns o.k. for horses to eat? Seems like I read somewhere that they could cause problems?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:38 pm:

Acorns are toxic -- some species more than others. The green ones are the worst.

But besides the toxicity is the protein and power in those little nuts and for an overweight horse, or a susceptible horse, I believe they can push a horse into laminitis, colic or other problems. Especially when combined with another chain of events.

I've had horses with long lay ups before so it is what it is and I'll have to do it again.

It just really drags on me when I have a horse going through such difficulties.

When they are suffering or miserable I am too.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:49 pm:

Vicki, I know exactly what you mean. Any time any of our animals are sick or injured I suffer right along with them. And nothing makes me feel better than to see them happy and content.

Both my horses have had to undergo long periods of stall rest at various times in their lives, and keeping them occupied does help. The clicker training is a great idea. Can Perry see outside the barn from his stall? Having a window on the world was a big help to both of mine.

Hoping for as speedy a recovery as possible.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 11:40 am:

Perry barely ate any hay last night and drank nothing.

Our water buckets and water tanks have been frozen for several hours and I had to break the ice with a hammer this morning. It is still below freezing and the water pipes, except those in the sun, are still frozen. Who thinks about having tank heaters in Florida?

It was clear that Perry had been circling and digging in the stall.

I gave him his morning 1 gram of Bute and got him to eat part of his Pentoxifylline tablets that are mixed with his food pellets.

Then he began circling,lying down and getting up and he also rolled, but shook the shavings off, so he wasn't in extreme colic. Apparently he has been doing this quite a bit because there are shavings everywhere, in and on everything including small ledge areas.

He stretched out and DrOpped down like he was going to urinate, but passed nothing. I had seen him do this yesterday and he only quickly squirted out a small bit that time. I have to wonder, is it painful for him to stretch out?

Perry laid down a long while clearly feeling poorly. He was sighing. He continued to show signs of mild colic.

While gut sounds were present, it was obvious to me that his output was very little throughout the night. I could unearth very little manure from under the deep shavings.

At this point, I called my Vet and found out it would have been better not to go ahead and give the morning dose of Bute given how Perry was feeling (but I gave it to him right away without observing his behavior).

My Vet told me to give Perry a 500 pound size dosage of Banamine. (Perry weights between 900 - 950 pounds) and see how he acted in 45 minutes to an hour.

Perry hates swallowing Banamine paste (wish I had remembered to get some liquid the last time my Vet was here) and it took a half hour to get him to do so. After he turned it into DrOol I finally got him to eat it back up and swallow it as he finally decided to go for the few small pieces of T & A cubes that I had quickly soaked with some warm water and kept offering to him in a small pan that I held under his mouth.

After he passed some manure this was what seemed to give him enough relief so that he finally agreed to eat the bit of T & A, swallow the Banamine DrOol and also complete his pellets/medicine.

He continued to circle his stall quite a bit after that, and after about 45 minutes from when he finally swallowed the Banamine he began to pick at some hay just a bit, but didn't eat much of it.

Next he hung his head out over the stall door, playing roughly with my old guy, Buddy. Both of their faces look like they have been through a war since Perry began being stalled up as they pick, pick, pick at each other.

I am to continue to check on Perry throughout the day and call my Vet if anything worsens.

Tonight I am to offer him his pellets with the
Pentoxifylline (which my Vet wishes for me to continue, and it does not cause stomach problems) but administer no Bute, nor Banamine, and then see how he does.

My Vet said that he would look around for some Gastro Guard tomorrow as he doesn't have any right now. It is expensive and goes out of date quickly.

He said that cimetidine could be used along with a long course of Bute or other such drug, but that after about a week it quits working effectively.

He said that sometimes when horses are stalled and bored they eat shavings, causing a colic. I haven't observed him intentionally eating shavings though he may have ingested some with his hay.

Being confined and not moving around normally effects and changes the digestion too.

On top of that, I am almost out of the coastal hay that the horses have been eating and I have given Perry just a little bit of the new load since it arrived Friday morning. I've now saved all that is remaining from what my horses have been eating for the most part this past month or so for him, but it is soon gone, so I will have no choice but to have him eat from the new load.

We are going to see how today and tonight goes and my Vet and I will be in telephone communication so the details of our care program will be determined in the hours ahead.

Perhaps I should try to offer him some Pepto Bismol?

Thanks, Jo Ann, for your comments and encouragement. Perry can see out of my barn and is able to look out from this sick stall above three different stall doors.

It does stress him more when the others wander too far away and sometimes the amount of noise that the coyotes make (day and night) is amazing.

I continue to believe that part of his problem is associated with the injury that happened before all of his soreness and pain began because he continues to so some favoring of his hindquarter, but I also feel the abundant acorns and overweight were contributing factors.

On the other hand, he actually reared up a bit when Buddy got very vigorous at picking at him this morning.

It seems to be one of those times that all one can do is take it as it comes and react accordingly.

Meanwhile, I am hoping my other horses do not colic on account of the new load of hay and the bounty of acorns on the ground.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 12:23 pm:

Wow Vicki :-( I hope he feels better soon! Could you ask your vet about giving Perry some probiotics? That picks my horse up quite quickly when he's not feeling well.

After reading your post and seeing my horse go directly to the place where a tree had fallen in his pasture from the weight of snow, I went out to where he was and he was nosing through leaves to find acorns. Not eating the plentiful grass, looking for acorns! So I locked him out of the pasture until I cleaned it up. Thank you for posting about the acorns!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 12:33 pm:

Never a dull moment is there. Hope Perry gets over his colic without incidence.

Look at the bright side if he feels good enough to be rearing his hooves can't be hurting him too bad

ONTH when Hank was on the mend from his laminitis, he and Sam decided to play and he reared up and came down on those "stressed" hooves and went right back to square one so be careful with that!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 1:29 pm:

For once I'm glad we only have five trees on this farm. And they are in the yard.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 4:42 pm:

Boy, when it rains, it pours. Sending healing thoughts your way.

((((Perry and Vicki))))
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:45 pm:

Perry had eaten very little if any hay all afternoon and drank no water.

He did pass one small pile of manure, and then another small one when I was most recently up at the barn.

After he passed that manure he seemed more comfortable and he accepted a few thin pieces of a T & A cube from me.

I hung a hay bag in a position where he can look out over a stall door and directly into the paddock where one of the other horses usually stands vigil (and I've put hay outside that door so one will be encouraged to hang around there).

This seemed to make him much happier and when I left the barn he was snacking on some hay and had drunk a little water.

When Buddy discovers that hay bag he may pull it outside though.

I removed the floating ice from his buckets and started over with some water that wasn't actual ice water.

I also removed the boots, cleaned them and put them back on.

Perry's feet had not become soft or moist yet and perhaps the cold weather is helping in this regard. I don't think that they are as rock hard as they were before we put the boots on, however.

The foot with the slight rotation is presently considerably cooler than the other front foot. I'm not sure that this is a good thing and wonder if I should have iced just in case.

Perry held each foot up well for me and was cooperative with the entire procedure.

I am going to order some boots of my own as I see the right front one that belongs to my Vet is so worn along one edge near the back that it could be causing a slight imbalance in a 1 - 2" section at the outside of the foot, under the hoof wall.

Hopefully the deep shavings will mean that it isn't terribly consequential.

It also looks like duct tape may soon be required to keep the boot together and on in that same area.

I'll ask my Vet if additional probiotics would be helpful, Aileen. His feed does contain some but he is only getting 1 and a half cups twice daily of those pellets.

Maybe the acorn alert will help others and my guys have been eating them since they began falling but I was shocked and surprised to see how many there are on the ground right now -- not a good situation.

Thanks, Aileen, Diane, Vicki and Jo Ann.

The hours ahead will be telling for Perry.

It finally warmed up to just above freezing so at least no more ice is presently forming but it is going to be even colder tonight so I think that I will plan to bring some hot water up to the barn this evening or in the early morning hours.

I will probably check on Perry throughout the night.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 8:04 pm:

Vicki I wonder if the nasids do give them upset stomachs, Sam seemed less belly achy today since I didn't give him any this morning, quite a balancing act.

The cold is just making everything so much harder, I thought it was suppose to warm up today but I think it was one of the coldest days yet with the windchill. Last night it got down to - 8 without the windchill factor. I feel bad for Sam having to cope with that and his problems.

I have been feeding him and Hank right next to each other across the gates so they are eating nose to nose like they Normally do. I think keeping them involved in the herd helps their "morale"

What kind of boots are you getting??

Hope Perrys next hours are uneventful!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 8:44 pm:

I sure hope it warms up for all of us so at the very least everyone dealing with horse troubles has better conditions to work in. So many here on HA in the same boat.

Hugs & warm thoughts to you Vicki.

We had a mini heat wave, ha ha, so I trimmed the 2 mares today. I kept thinking about Sam, and Perry, and everyone, started being very critical of my work; 2nd guessing myself.

Sure wonder what is the cause of more laminitis this winter?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 9:18 pm:

Things went from relatively stable this afternoon to quickly bad, and I had to have the Vet come out again.

He had not wanted me to give any NSAIDs tonight if we could manage that, but Perry's pain was escalating. I was worried that it was colic that was worsening.

Perry kept circling, lying down several times, looking at his sides and also rolling.

My Vet thinks after examining Perry that his continuing pain is caused by ulcers rather than colic. Ulcers quickly accompany laminitis, he says.

And the NSAID's cause a bad balance in the stomach.

Perry got an injection of Cimetidine (same as Tagamet, I think?) and Banamine.

After the medications worked Perry is back to eating again just like his old self. Absolutely amazing.

I have to go up at about 12:30 A.M. and watch him continuously for at least half an hour and then check him every two hours thereafter and call my Vet if anything worsens.

My Vet is coming back at about 8:00 A.M. to give Perry another Cimetidine injection. (Maybe other things too?)

My Vet wants Perry to stay on some level of NSAID drugs for a while yet though he feels that the worst of the laminitis is past.

He is going to track down some Gastro Guard paste medicine that will work over a long enough term to protect Perry's stomach while he continues to receive the NSAIDs. I will also have to continue to give the drugs that improve the circulation in the vascular system.

I believe that the Gatro Guard might be the same as the over the counter Prilosec, though I don't have the time to look into that right now.

The trouble is that Perry is already eating 8 pills with his one and a half cups of pellets and I can't add any more drugs into that, so will have to buy the expensive ulcer stuff.

It is going to be about 20 degrees here tonight for several hours and there is ice now in some of my water buckets.

Will post again tomorrow about how things go.

Thanks to all for your help and encouragement.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 9:24 pm:

Diane --

You are absolutely correct about the NSAIDs but my Vet believes they are still necessary for some time yet though he did not want me to give any today.

Cimetedine or OTC Prilosic might help Sam as I have to think his lying down and being in pain is at least in part due to ulcers.

I am planning to get some of the Soft Ride boots but it is now less urgent because my Vet picked up his newer pair of boots from the woman who had them (he had to go there for a case of choke! Kind of a coincidence because I know this woman and she and I used to be on the same Arabian drill team -- small world!)

Thanks, Angie, for your continuing good wishes.

It barely got above freezing here today with the wind chill making it much worse.

Thing is, this is Florida and we aren't used to these temperatures.

I am not blanketing Perry though, because he has a really good coat and has not been showing any signs of cold stress or shivering.

Will post tomorrow as things unfold.

Wishing improvement for Sam and Diane.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 10:14 pm:

Oh vicki I'm sorry about Perry. Healing thoughts his way. You are going to have a long night, especially in this blasted cold.

I will ask my vet tomorrow about something for Sams stomach, it is rather coincidental that he seemed to feel better without the nasids today

Thanks for the heads up, hope everything goes well tonight.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 11:14 pm:

Vicki, I too am sorry to hear of this, but glad the vet started him on something for his belly. Probiotics also help with evening the bacteria in the gut, ask your vet about recommendations for a probiotic with digestive enzymes. I use smartpak's ultraguard on Brave. It has pre and pro biotics and they say it helps with the entire digestive tract. I don't know if that's the case, but I do know I haven't had to give ulcerguard in months.

About the blanket, I have a horse in my barn that is just plain wooley. We were at a low of 22 degrees with a high of 32 degrees for a few days in December. Here in California, we don't normally get that kind of cold. He was extremely happy to have a blanket for a few days. If they are warm it encourages drinking. Just a thought :-) Sending healing wishes to your boy and strength to you.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 12:32 am:

Hi Vickie, I just wanted to mention that there was a discussion on HA a while back about getting horses to drink more. A couple of us, me included, make a "tea" for the horse. I use a little bit of alfalfa meal or Eq. Senior in the winter, but in the summer I've used apple juice, gator aide and soda. In the winter you can mix it like a watery mash or just flavor the water with it. I use warm water in the winter and cool in the summer. It might be worth a try. If you do a search you can see what others have tried.

I wish you luck with Perry. It is so difficult to see your horse suffering. My mare is finally doing better; I hope Perry starts to recover soon also. Seems to be a rough winter in more ways than one for a lot of folks on HA this winter.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 5:44 am:

Vicki, Sara gives a good idea to keep Perry hydrated. I give Sam watered down timothy pellets, he is a bit sensitive to alfalfa so he don't get that, but alfalfa pellets/cubes work well too.

Sara glad you mare is improving, hopefully she is the beginning to happy endings!

Hope you had a quiet night vicki!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 5:56 am:

While I cannot rule out NSAID's as causing problems in your horse, twenty five years and thousands of applications and I cannot remember attributing a case of colic to it's use. The above suggestion that this is a common event following routine use is just not so.

Most important, making such a diagnosis may prevent the pursuit of a correct diagnosis and proper treatment of the colic, particularly if you have an impaction. If your horse remains colicky Vicki be sure you do all you can to find out why so it can be treated properly For more on this see Overview on Colic and follow up with the article on Colic First Aid.
DrO
Member:
canter

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:17 am:

Vicki, I sure hope Perry is feeling better this morning. Keeping my fingers crossed that he improves quickly and fully recovers.
Member:
shedwall

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 10:59 am:

Wishing you the and Perry the best for a speedy recovery. I have a gelding who used to colic on a regular basis. I live in the mountains of Colorado where we can have 40 degree or more temperature changes from one day to the next. What has worked wonders for him is wheat bran. Mixing with warm water makes a tasty mash that also helps to keep him hydrated. I give this to him once a week and it has really helped. A vet once compared it to metamucil(?) for us - just keeps things moving.

Good luck - you and Perry are in my thoughts.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 11:16 am:

Vickie, I totally agree with Dr. O on the use of bute causing ulcers and colic. We have a mare that due to and extremely bad injury and subsequent surgery, infection and resulting laminitis, has been on bute off and on for several yrs. She was hospitalized for one year and one bute the entire time. She was put on gastroguard only when she was getting several potent antibiotics at the same time. Antibiotics can just "rip" your stomach and gut up and same with a horse. This mare has never had a problem with even a mild colic.

Please get a rectal exam, and ultra sound or whatever you can do to diagnose the reason for the colic if Perry is not improved this a.m. Again, I'm speaking from experience. Most Arabians are pretty stoic. If he's not improved I'd be very concerned about something more than an ulcer.

An added note; I sometimes feel I need to post a disclaimer since I'm always posting from "experience." You folks must wonder if I don't have the most unhealthy, ill kept herd of horses in the country! I've had horses my entire life, used to breed, retired and sold most of the "good" horses. The horses I kept were the older, injured, no longer breedable ones with the exception of just a couple, including our two stallions. Thus all the experience with problems! Inspite of their early morning protests to the contrary, the do all get fed and cared for as properly as possible; they are just getting old!
Sorry to take over the post here; just have been wanting to say that for awhile.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 3:56 pm:

Thanks everyone, for your very helpful comments.

And thank you Dr. O, and others, for your well-founded concerns and cautions.

Dr. O, While my Vet suggested laminitic horses often have ulcers, he may not have been implying that it is very common for horses to have such a reaction to NSAIDs. That impression may have grown due to my interpretation of what he said. I've used them in the past with pretty good success with Perry. It seems though, that when he is stalled up for an extended time, that is when all kinds of sensitivities to things develop. I'll ask my Vet how often he makes a diagnosis that what appears to be a colic is caused by NSAIDs. Also, it is worth noting that he drew his conclusions based upon on-going examinations these past days, plus he has known this horse for many years and is familiar with his personality and quirky ways.

I am going to post an update and then try to rest a bit because I probably slept no more than half an hour last night and spent most of it outdoors in below-feezing temperatures.

Perry had a really rough night.

After the initial improvement following the Banamine (1,000 lb dose, given because I told my Vet I thought that it was an escalating colic) and Cimetidine injections, Perry went back to being uncomfortable again, and in fact, more continuously uncomfortable.

He spent most of the night down.

At 1:45 A.M. I called my Vet to let him know what was going on. He said that if Perry continued to seem like it was colic to call him in a couple of hours and he would come over and tube and oil him, though it was not part of his plan to administer any further NSAIDs at that time.

To tell you the truth, it sure looked a lot like an impaction colic to me, and Perry has had one of those many years ago.

He would circle and then get up and down several times. Then he would roll a time or two (not really violently, however, and sometimes would shake the shavings off, sometimes from a down position) but then he would just lie fairly still and quietly, sometimes stretching his legs straight out into the air or lie flat out on his side, but mostly with them folded underneath him, taking deep breaths with a sighing exhale.

At 6:00 A.M. I called my Vet and told him that I thought it certainly appeared to be an impaction colic, and that while he is the professional my impression was that some water, oil and maybe Pepto Bismol into the stomach might be a good idea. He agreed to come over to do that within a couple of hours.

By about 7:00 A.M., however, when I was back up in the barn, Perry was up again and acting much better.

For the first time since he began to be stalled, he ate his morning pellet-medication concoction promptly at about 7:15 A.M., without walking circles for several minutes or getting up and down.

My Vet re-examined Perry at about 8:15 A.M., temperature good (98), gums pink, gut sounds pretty good, and after not caring what shots he got in the prior few days, suddenly Perry had his old attitude back that maybe he didn't want a shot after all. No bounding pulses were observed in the front feet.

My Vet gave him just a Cimetidine shot this morning and does not want to give him any more NSAIDs at the present time. He plans to come back sometime today to give another Cimetidine shot, but said that I should check Perry at least every two hours (and observe, too), and that he is "only a phone call away."

Perry's manure that was passed late yesterday and during the night was softer and more irritable looking, and not enough at one time. It seemed to me that he was straining when he did pass it, and sometimes it was just a few balls followed by a few more a bit later.

The piles are still on the smaller side than normal for him (of course Perry had not eaten much for a while, and drank little water), but for the past 8 hours or so the consistency is more normal looking again, and they are coming with reasonable regularity.

Perry drank some water, stretched out and urinated (finally)and began picking at the hay. Since then he has actually been eating hay on a sustained basis and acting like his normal self.

Thanks Diane, for your suggestions, and I am so glad that you mentioned about timothy pellets. I need to find something like that as Perry doesn't do great with Alfalfa, though I did use some small slivers of T & A cubes to help the process a couple of times. As the Banamine went out of his system, Perry did seem to improve this morning, so I hope this improvement is "for real."
And I hope that you will have progress with Sam.

Great information, Aileen about the probiotics, and idea of putting on a blanket for encouraging drinking.

Thanks Sara for the suggestions to encourage drinking and about what makes a proper colic exam if things continued to go badly. Also, I appreciated your comments about your horses and I am so happy that your mare is now doing better.
I take really good care of my horses too, but Perry has always been one of those individuals who seems more prone to a variety of problems. He has never been as tough in any way as my Arab Lance. My boys and I are all getting old!

Thanks Fran and Shelley for the good wishes and also, Shelley, for the comments about wheat bran. Some bran mashes might have been a perfectly great thing some of these past days as Perry was eating no or almost no hay, and his digestion was slowing down. I do administer psyllium to my horses 7 days each month but they are not due for it until the 15th. I try to be a little careful with it in extremely cold weather because if the horses don't drink enough water with the Psyllium, it seems that it can cause extra gas production.

I will continue to be vigilant with monitoring Perry's condition and let everyone know as things unfold.

It is supposed to be very cold again tonight.

Last night I broke layers of ice out of my big water tank and buckets rather continuously. Today I am aware of those areas of my body that need more effective insulating -- feet and the area between my boots and the end of my coat. I shouldn't complain about the cold as I know it is much worse for many others.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:40 pm:

Hi Vicki - I just want to add my good wishes to all the others. I feel for all of you struggling with sick horses in these unusually cold days.
All the best,
Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 8:08 pm:

Thanks, Lilo.

When cold like this is so foreign in our climate it makes it kind of challenging.

I fear that my beautiful citrus orchard is history.

I don't have a permit to do water/ice spraying, etc., as my trees are only for personal use, nor do I break the law by burning smudge pots.

Best news for me today is that Perry has continued to do well. My Vet is due here momentarily to give the other Cimetidine shot and tell me whatever else he has in mind.

But for the last several hours, Perry has not circled, etc., in his stall. This is major because he had been circling frequently and exhibiting other symptoms of discomfort for a few days up until today.

He is just like Perry usually is, so I am hoping for the best and that he will do well through the night.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 8:09 pm:

Vicki, Interesting enough I asked my vet about the Nasids and Sam's diarrhea and toxicity. So this is what he said, Dr.O. I would love your take on this .

He listened closely to all quadrants of Sams stomach, when he got to the right rear, right by his flank(high) he said he could tell by the normal sounds that he wasn't having problems with nasids, he said if he was it would sound different in that spot( I want to say his cecum, but not sure), he did listen quite intently (don't remember what he called it.) Now how can he know that?? Would Nasid toxicity make the stomach(well it wasn't the stomach it was something else back there!) sounds different??? I kind of find that hard to believe.

Vicki I am very glad to hear Perry seems to be on the mend, if his hooves are calmed down I wouldn't be worried about no nasids. I couldn't wait to get Hank off them when he foundered.

Perry's colic almost sounds like my horses when they gas colic. Has his food/hay changed at all?
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 8:20 pm:

What a rough night the two of you had. I'm so glad Perry is better.

Sara, no worries! It has never occurred to me that you give your horses anything less than stellar care. Horses have a way of finding trouble, no matter how well managed.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 10:49 pm:

That is very interesting, Diane. I'll have to ask my Vet about this. He said that the problems with NSAIDs causing reactions that mimic colic are actually quite infrequent, just the odd horse now and then who is sensitive.

And Perry only seems to get sensitive when he is stalled up, changing his routines and ability to be free and with the other horses. In other words, when he is more stressed mentally as well as challenged physically.

You ask a good question about food and hay, because of course, Perry mainly quit eating for a few days almost totally.

But he had received a small amount from a new load of coastal hay. After today I have now run out of the remaining coastal so it is all going to be hay from the new load.

Because I couldn't find good enough hay at the right time, it didn't work out for me to load my barn this fall so that I could avoid switching.

I try to make even changes with coastal hay over a couple of week period of time, but this change will have been made over a period of only four days.

In addition to some impaction, there did seem to be a little bit of gas involvement.

There were significantly loud gut sounds when he was most uncomfortable. It seemed that every time he managed to pass some manure, he had some amount of relief.

I'm a little less optimistic than I was earlier about things being cleared up for Perry very quickly. My Vet just left after giving the Cimetidine shot. He could detect a faint pulse in the right front, but said that we could not expect it to be totally and consistently gone yet. The other day it was so pounding that every heart beat was strong and evident, and that is no longer the case.

Also, he noticed how Perry seemed to be cocking his left rear, and of course, I was already aware of that (and had mentioned it) since he has been favoring that somewhat ever since the ordeal began. Even though it doesn't test out that he has laminitis in his rear feet, something is going on in the rear end.

I have to check Perry twice between now and 7:00. A.M., if all goes okay.

It is really getting cold again!

For now my Vet is going to try to keep Perry off of NSAID drugs unless he starts to get foot sore again.

Since no NSAIDs are being administered we are going to try not to give any additional ulcer treatment drugs either, past this shot tonight, so will have to see how this goes.

I will have to continue to keep a close watch on Perry. So here is hoping that this all works.

My Vet is going to come back to check Perry on Friday, unless there are worsening problems sooner.

Guess I better go to bed and set my alarm for about 1:00 A.M.

You are so right, Jo Ann, about horses finding trouble!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 9:48 am:

Diane, though I have got no references supporting your veterinarians thoughts, the idea he has is that bute toxicity effects the right dorsal colon and may cause detectable changes in motility.

Vicki, the mechanism by which ulcers form and the type and locations of ulcers created by the management factors you state are different than those created by NSAID's and these situations you describe are primarily associated with colic when bute is not given. Taken together it is worth considering the situations are not sensitizing your horse to the effects of bute, indeed to the degree the bute relieves pain and helps your horse return to normal activity faster, it may be helping.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 5:08 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O.

Right now we are taking this whole situation in short stretches of time and ready to administer NSAIDs again if that is indicated but if we do so will also give some medications to protect the stomach.

Perry's digestion, eating and drinking are doing better.

I took the boots off to clean out the shavings today and put some Durasole on the soles. He has been standing and moving quite well.

As I open new hay bales I am having inconsistent product (mold!) and my horses are not liking the hay much at the better ends of the bales either.

Tomorrow I am going to go out and try to rake acorns and pull seasonal toxic weeds (corydalis is prime right now).

It would be too much if another horse came down with laminitis or colic right now.

It has been almost a month since I have been able to ride.

Another cold night is forecast but not as bad as it has been, and last night was not nearly as bad as those proceeding.

It is a good thing that Perry is a sweet, loveable boy with an endearing personality. Around the clock observation is exhausting.

But then I would probably take just as good care of a grumpy, nasty old horse too but sweet boys make it easier to bear the load.

Had a new (human) granddaughter born today -- 8 pounds, 8 ounces, Jillian Marie.

May think of adding a "Part 2" to this thread as it proceeds.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 5:45 pm:

Vicki congrats on the new grand baby!

Sounds as if Perry is doing very well
Sweet horses do make it a littleeasier.

Keep us in the loop.

Dr.O. yes that was what he said the right dorsal column would have different sounds if indeed there was bute toxicity, is that true???
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 8:07 pm:

Congratulations on your new grand baby! Glad to hear continued good news. This has been quite a week for you. You will need a Florida vacation to recover!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 5:55 pm:

Thanks so much, Diane and Jo Ann!

Right now Perry seems to be doing amazingly well, though he has moments when he looks sad due to his confinement.

He and Lance were seriously sparring over the stall door this afternoon and I was amazed at how high Perry reared up.

His appetite, drinking and output (manure and urine) have come back into a normal range.

If anything changes, I will post.

Will let you know what my Vet says when he does a recheck on Friday.

Though it still froze here last night, the weather has since warmed and the upcoming forecast is more normal.

Hope that this will be the case in other parts of the country.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 4:29 pm:

Not good. Perry appears to be more "foot sore" today.

The way that he is favoring his right front now is reminiscent of when he has come down with abscesses in the past.

My Vet told me to go ahead and give 1 gram only of Bute, and be prepared to care for him throughout the night if he reacts poorly. Thank goodness it has warmed up here.

My Vet will be out to my farm late tomorrow afternoon to examine Perry, unless an emergency demands that he come sooner.

Even when he has nothing in his mouth after awakening, Perry seems to go through some chewing motions, and I asked my Vet if Perry ought to be scoped to look for the suspected ulcers. My Vet does not have a long enough scope to do this, so Perry would have to go to one of the veterinary hospitals for such a procedure.

I asked him if we should just treat Perry for ulcers. The Gastro Guard is about $700 for a two week course, which likely would be required.

Anyone have any experiences using specific products for ulcers?

Here is hoping we will make it through another day before I have to have my Vet out again.

He says there is another ulcer product that comes in a bucket (I can't remember the name) that might be worth a try, but I am not keen on using products not known to actually work.

I wonder if at this stage U Guard would help, and I will also ask about additional probiotics when we decide what to do tomorrow.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 4:49 pm:

OH Vicki I'm sorry I thought Perry was on the mend for sure. I'm starting to think probiotics might not be a bad idea. Everytime I let Sam out to stretch his legs the first thing he does is eat Hanks or Flashes poop... he does not eat his own. Guess that's one of the best probiotics there is but it is rather gross! Seems too after he makes a lunch of their poop his diarrhea goes away...

Hope you don't have another long night!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 5:23 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

That is interesting about Sam eating the other's manure!

I just read the article on ulcers, which was very good, and reread the laminitis articles too.

Interestingly, Perry also has the runny eyes that you described Sam has, which started two or 3 years ago.

On top of the other causes of Perry's laminitis, I am suspicious too about the possibility of insulin resistance plus the fact that my pasture continued to grow way past when it should have, with intermittent periods of cold weather and rain, perhaps making the grass a factor.

Also, feet being too long (no flares though).

I am still worried about my other boys too, since all are up in age now. I saw Lance out eating acorns today and called him. Fortunately he came flying up the hill to the barn, so no foot tenderness for him.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 6:52 pm:

Vicki, if he is IR it is best to find out, they definitely need different management.

Does Perry have a cresty neck or weird fat anywhere? At his age cushings could be considered too.... I hope not, with that disease it is very hard to predict what may go wrong next.

Sam's eyes were very, very runny with hard clumps of gunk in the corner of his eyes. That seems to be improving.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 9:30 pm:

Perry hasn't been having the hard clumps of gunk under his eyes lately, although he has a history of this.

Perry has a big fat pad above his tail and a small one on each side behind the shoulder area, in the classic IR position.

I would not say that he has a cresty neck. In years past when he was even fatter, he used to have some fat deposits along his neck, but not presently, nor for a few years.

He has a nice, wooly winter coat but I have never had a hard time with him shedding out and his hair is not at all curly.

I have him on Triple Crown Lite food because he is such an easy keeper he could live on air.

He has always been a real eater though. I swear he can put away more food than two other horses combined in a set period of time.

When he was younger and still growing he was a hard keeper.

As Arabs go, he has never had a great deal of stamina nor been particularly hardy, like Lance.

He used to drink lots, eat lots of salt and pee more than normal but with the food that I have been feeding him for a few years (and the loose, high quality salt rather than salt block), he has not exhibited those qualities.

I have always worried that he may be IR and working toward Cushings, however, and I may have stalled this off with the diet.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:49 am:

Vicki I was able to keep Sam off pergolide with diet for 7 years. His coat isn't what I would call curly, just VERY thick... he doesn't shed completely out tho.

When I can get him to body condition of 4 he always seems to feel much better(which would suggest the IR is at work more than the cushings). That is what I'm working towards if the weather cooperates, I refuse to cut too many groceries when it is 20 below zero! 20 degrees or above he gets less.

I even took away his ration balancer, too many calories for now... I should find a good vitamin/min supplement for him tho. He is getting 10#'s of soaked hay (when the weather cooperates) and a cup of timothy pellets for meds. That's it! Can't say he is thrilled with it... but too bad.

I'm hoping against hope when he hits that BCS of 4 improvement will begin.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:32 am:

After being almost a "3-legged horse" yesterday, finally on my night time checks Perry was standing quite normally again.

If it was the Bute that turned off the fire, it sure seemed to take a long while.

I noted no digestive discomfort with the one gram except for an increase in gut sounds for a few hours. In fact, Perry's appetite picked up again.

I should probably be feeding less hay but if ulcers are a problem right now I don't want him to go without something to nibble on either.

Thanks for this information, Diane. I know that this overweight situation will have to be addressed.

I've probably been flirting with disaster for years by allowing Perry to be so overweight but got by with it until now.

Will post if something changes and let you know what the Vet says after he examines Perry today.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 5:58 pm:

Will post a Part 2 since this is going to continue for a while.

See Laminitis, Perry's founder, Part 2
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