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Discussion on Sams founder
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 11:12 am:
I was hoping I would never have a thread on this topic again, but here we go. I decided I have to buck up and do something about this... so hope Dr.O. or someone has suggestions. I got a picture of sams sole. He really doesn't mind holding a hoof up, but maybe that's because he is on soft bedding.
He is on Equioxx at this time a full dose once a day. I have split his pergolide dose and he is getting double his regular dose(total).
He IS VERY VERY sore I believe all 4 hooves are involved not just the fronts.
Since he doesn't seem able to tolerate styrofoam or padded boots, I went and bought one of those foam gardening kneeling pads and taped them on. He was licking his lips after I got the first one on, so considered that a good sign. As I was wrapping his hoof I could feel the heat in them which is quite significant. Hanks was worse when he foundered...but this is close.
He is now wrapped in the garden pads and seems a little more comfortable.
Here is a pic of his sole... I know his WL was not this stretched before and this red ring around his sole is a bit alarming.. I HOPE it is just bruising.
I outlined in black where the ring runs, tho it doesn't look red it is.
Any suggestions??
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 11:22 am:
This pic shows it a little better
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 12:44 pm:
No suggestions, Diane. Seems to me you are doing everything possible to keep Sam comfortable. Just wanted to send my best wishes for Sam...really hope he starts to feel better soon.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 1:10 pm:
Diane,
Because of how Perry was moving I thought that all four feet were involved. Especially since I saw him taking the weight off one of the rears more than any of his other feet.
My Vet said though that in his opinion the rear feet were not involved, on account of the hoof tester results and the bounding pulses being in the front feet only.
Sometimes appearances are really deceiving though of course in Sam's case he may well be sore all around.
Sorry that he is so sore.
All best wishes to you both.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 2:03 pm:
Thank you fro the well wishes...I think we are going to need them. I'm pretty sure it is all 4 feet with Sam. He has heat and Pounding pulses in them also. Probably why he is almost totally immobilized too, and why he isn't taking the typical "founder stance"
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 2:28 pm:
Diane,
I see a long flared hoof that is in need of work. It's looks longer on the lower left side of the picture. I would rasp just above the sole, bevel bevel bevel...Good Lord I am tired of typing that...make sure it's even looking from heel to toe, side to side, and make sure you have enough toe height (vertical) and see how he moves then.
When Tango was sore from flares, he barely hobbled around at all, except for a small area where there was deep sand right behind the barn.
Masking the pain, giving other meds, before addressing hoofs is not the way to go.
If pictures are misleading I apologize in advance. It's been a long day, and it's not over, and along week, and Thank God It's Friday!! My patience is zero, it's cold and windy and icy, and I swear number of idiots exceed number of intelligent people on this planet! OH...I am not talking about anyone on HA, just people I've had to deal with in person this week!!!
Wishing you the best in getting this figured out!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 2:42 pm:
So sorry, Diane. Have no experience, so no advice from me. Just wish you and Sam all the best. Our weather is starting to improve - hopefully that will move your way in a few days.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 2:42 pm:
Yeah, the bounding pulses especially is not good.
No fun for horse nor woman.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 2:49 pm:
Is it possible to get x-rays? I can't remember if you've had them done or not,just that you're not thrilled with the vet although you like him.
If he is foundering, I'd be carefull about what I did to change his feet at least until the active phase of laminitis is over. If you had x-rays you could tell what his coffin bone is doing, but if his soles are sore I wouldn't think you'd want to take away any wall but would want as much as possible to keep the sole off the ground, unless you replace the wall with something else, ie. a boot or shoe of some kind. After the inflamation is gone, then trim. If it's founder caused/aggrivated by imbalance, then you'd want to alter the foot, in small increments. But you would need to know what the coffin bone is doing so you change the foot to align with the coffin bone both vertically and laterally.
I'm not farrier; nor a vet, so this is just my thoughts.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 3:45 pm:
I can get x-rays altho they won't be very good Hanks always turned out bad.
Angie, Sams hoof is a mess tho the pictures are a little deceiving, I was wanting to get a shot of that "bruise" or whatever it is more than anything.
This IS founder no doubt so I am not going to mess with those hooves until he is a little/Much less sore. His WL was never that stretched before so something very bad is going on. His wall is even with his sole.
Sara I may try some styrofoam over that knee pad maybe that would help a little. Is that kind of what they put on your horse.. a soft pad and then styrofoam??
I will have the vet out next week for x-rays, the only thing is, I don't know what good it would do, I have no farrier, the vet is no help, and they might just scare the crap out of me worse than I already am! I am going to try to find something that helps his comfort level this weekend.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 4:09 pm:
Lilo thanks, Once we get through the sub zero temps this weekend it is suppose to warm up to the 20's..that will be like a heat wave!!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:06 pm:
I think it's likely he's sore in all four feet. At least to some degree, laminitis can be a systemic disease so it makes sense it would affect all four feet. I know most present with pain in front, but I think because they carry more weight in front it's more apparent. If they were blocked in front, I bet more would show they're also sore behind.
I think on the hopeforsoundness website, they describe how to put styrofoam pads on in two parts. As I remember, "half" a pad is put on toward the heels not covering any of the front of the foot. A second full pad is then applied over the entire sole so that the front part (under the coffin bone) gets a bit less pressure than the back which has the two part pad. It's on Gene Ovenics site as I remember. I've had a horse winter founder too and he wasn't cushionoid, or fat but was IR I think. I think asking "why" at this point is less productive than getting him comfortable and minimizing the damage. If you decide to get X rays, let's assume your vet will do the usual substandard job(!) and be prepared! Take a piece of wire the length of Sam's wall from coronet to ground and tape it on the very front of his hoof vertically with a piece of adhesive tape. This will show you the wall in relation to the coffin bone on the profile x ray. Remember the foot must be flat and the machine held exactly level also. You will need to mark the point of the frog as well. Take a thumbtack and place it as far underneath the point of the frog as you can. I know you won't use a hoof knife to get back to the true point (I wouldn't either--hate the thought of slicing something), but get it back as far as you can. Maybe you'll shame your vet into learning how to do this himself!! Sorry this is all going on and I know how frustrating it is, although I've always had the aggressive help of farrier and vet thankfully--sadly that seems out of the question for you.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:26 pm:
Thanks Julie, I unfortunately know the styrofoam protocol well. It's been awhile tho so maybe I will go review it.
Has anyone an opinion what that red ring going around his sole is... is it bruising or his Coffin bone...or hard to tell.
Sam seemed a little better tonight, he looks horrible tho. He's got crap all over his tail from the diarrhea, he looks painful and uncomfortable.
He does look ok yet if you know what I mean, the light isn't gone from his eyes. He is not in a stupor anymore. I have a fear in me about this founder that I didn't even have with Hank. I hope I can do the right things and help him.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 7:50 pm:
Diane, I believe the red ring is blood from the laminitis (inflammation of the laminae)...I could be wrong but the laminae is the lining between the outer hoof wall and the sensitive internal works that can sometimes bleed from the inflammation of the degree you are dealing with.
((((((((((Diane and Sam)))))))))))
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
Hang in there, Diane.
My Vet tonight told me not to touch Perry's hooves until his condition is completely stable.
Will post more on my thread.
Hate that amongst us we have so many horses suffering right now
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
The "blood line" is on his sole(you can tell a little better in the 2nd pic where it is located), not in his WL. I'm sure this has to do with the founder, Hank has had bruising at his toe when he foundered, but nothing this severe.
Dr.O. I was re-reading the styrofoam protocol, and it seems it suggests just a thin layer of bedding doing this. I have Sams stall LOADED with bedding.
Would very thick bedding be the same as the styrofoam..? Would styrofoam and deep bedding be a bad idea? Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 9:08 pm:
I have had this show of blood on the feet before in horses, Diane, without truly understanding the meaning and without seeming consequence.
I thought it to be bruising or the result of a too-short trim.
When Lance was at the point of recuperation after his extreme illness, his feet showed quite a bit of blood on the soles, but not in any kind of pattern. Rather it showed up in fairly substantial blotches instead of strips following the shape of the foot.
I posted some information about my Vet's advice on the thread about Perry.
Hope that we both have a good outcome with our boys.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 8, 2010 - 9:36 pm:
Jeez Diane! Sorry to read about Sam's troubles.  Winter founder and crappy weather = pita to rehab/doctor! (((diane))) Hoping for the very best. Sure wish your vet had a better machine, but the machines are soooooo expensive to buy. The portable one PU vets brought here cost $50K!!! Cannot imagine a small private practice in a rural area ever being able to afford one! And that's just one machine...
Diva's severe (both fronts) toe bruising last February showed as blood red blotches on the sole in a seemingly random pattern rather than a straight line;however they were mostly in the toe area.
Sending painfree feet thoughts your way.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 12:47 am:
Diane, our farrier has said he's seen that red line a lot in light footed horses esp. (not that Sam is, but it shows up more on light feet.) He didn't seem to think it was really indicative of anything, but of course he's not looking at the real feet.
Sahira was in double thickness styrofoam pads that I made and taped on her; they maybe helped some, but not a lot. They farrier made a narrow rim pad from hard plastic and attached it to the walls of her feet with a glue. Then he covered her soles with a really soft squishy injectable stuff that was blue. Then he put a thin firm plastic pad over her whole foot. Then attached a hard plastic "shoe" that had a wedge in the back. The shoe was attached by screws which he screwed in to the show at an angle which kind of clamped them onto the hoof wall. No screws were put into the wall itself. He covered the screws with a hard glue to keep them from slipping. The glue can be easily taken off however.
Sahira was in these shoes for several weeks and improved tremendously, but was still sore on the left front. So, farrier took off the shoe and thinks that foot has bruising on it's sole from the coffin bone, even though there is no more active laminitis. He painted her sole with sole paint ( a hardening agent) and put her in an Easy-Rider boot with a special insert which gives heel support but has a super soft area from the point of the frog forward. This boot comes on and off easily, and every few days I'm taking it off, repainting her foot and putting the boot back on. She has gone from can't walk to a slight limp and is not longer on bute unless she seems worse that particular day, then she gets one gram. We have weaned her down from 3 gr. per day when she was really bad and even the 3 gr. wasn't keeping her comfortable.
I missed the part about Sam's diarrhea. Poor boy! Is that from the bute?
Hang in there. I feel so bad for you dealing with this and the weather!
It seems to me that especially with the cold it takes them a long time to get over this.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:03 am:
Diane, I have no experience with this but just want to say I am SO sorry that you're having to cope alone with a horse in such pain.
I can only hope and HOPE Sam gets better soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:30 am:
Thanks, I'm not sure if the diarrhea was from the bute or the pergolide, that is why I lowered the pergolide back to normal and put him on equioxx. I am raising his pergolide again while he is on the equioxx to see if it comes back.
I would rather give him bute, but I think it was disagreeing with him.
I did look at the soft ride boots last night, they are quite pricey!! I am going to try the styrofoam again today and if it doesn't work I will order some. Too bad they aren't one size fit all at least I could use them on Hank too...if ever needed.
I've never seen such an angry ring on a sole before, Hanks bruising was mostly on his whole sole...not concentrated in a semi- circle. I think it is related to the founder and I have got to get it to stop somehow.
I can't wait for it to warm up next week!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:56 am:
Went out to feed, Sam does still look ok, but he is VERY painful, He peed while I was out there and didn't even stretch out just stood there, did the same thing last night too. He is still eating good. Looks like he spent most of the night down except to poop in his water bucket, which somehow came unplugged and is now froze solid with poop in it. Went to get him water from the hydrant, no water came out so I suppose we have a frozen water line somewhere.. does it get any better???
The Equioxx really doesn't seem to give him any relief so I am going to try bute again and get the styrofoam on and see if there is any improvement. I am getting close to my wits end. I feel so bad for Sam, and I'm not sure I can help him.... I'm starting to think not.
I would have the vet out but I DO know all he will do is give him banamine. This is really starting to make me sick. At least when Hank foundered he peed right.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 9:14 am:
Oh no, what else? I am so sorry you are going through all this, and sorry for Sam too.
I really don't have any advice to offer. With a limit on what is available to you in your area...
I wonder if you pad his hoofs good, then, in a few days time slowly trimmed him, and maybe that, with a combination of bute or banamine, would be a start in the right direction?
It seems to be a case of what came first, the chicken or the egg here. The cushings cause the founder, hard ground, flares, or flares, hard ground cause the founder, cushings making it worse?
Don't they always pad and trim a horse suffering from founder at the onset? Or trim and pad?
I don't know...I will learn from your ordeal.
Gotta run, good luck.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 9:42 am:
I've read that soaking in ice water is good - and I've read that it doesn't help - do not know which is correct. Since Sam is still actively foundering maybe it would be a good idea - Dr. O will need to weigh in on this one. Since you don't know what is causing the founder it is going to be pretty hard to stop. Fox has always foundered from something she ate - Getting weight off the tip of the coffin bone and keeping the toe from pulling on the laminae - the styrofoam pads - using 1 and a half for each foot - may help - I never really appreciated a good Vet until I didn't have one - the good ones are few and far between. I know what you are going through - just wish I could help.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 9:56 am:
Cheryl I think if I saoked in ice water he would have 2 huge ice cubes froze to his hooves! 8 below this morning without the windchill. I got Sam some water from the house and went out and checked about 15 mins later and it was already starting to freeze solid.
I took the pads that I had on him off and they did seem to help him some... The gardening pads are hard to find this time of year, there was only one I could find and I can get 4 pads out of it. IF the styrofoam don't work I will re-pad with the gardening pads. His soles didn't look nearly as angry when I took them off this morning. Guess that's something.
I also gave him 1.5 grams of bute this morning hope It doesn't throw his stomach into an uproar again.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:08 am:
Thinking of you and Sam today Diane, will have your thread up while working so I can follow it all day.......hoping DrO will chime in about the red line and what else you could be doing to help Sam.
I can relate to the unplugged bucket and the frozen faucet. Ziggy broke 2 buckets playfully pulling them from the wall, then letting go so they slammed back into position, finally breaking the built in heating element. That lead to the purchase of a large heated water tub. This morning we had to take a blow torch to the faucet to get it working again. Sigh....the things we do.........
I really feel your dilemma in the pit of my stomach and have my fingers crossed.
((((((((((Diane and Sam)))))))))))
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:39 am:
Diane,
While I have not had the founder/laminitis issues everyone seems to be dealing with, I have had horses on megadoses of bute, dex, and antibiotics at the same time and worried about the problems that go along with that ( digestive upsets and diarreah.
What I have found helps during this prolonged use of medications is to use Pro CMC along with the dosing. I use crushed up( using a mortar and pestle)bute pills instead of pastes for long term bute treatment(cheaper)and mix it with the Pro CMC (coats the stomach)and I feed right after dosing.
That said, bute is not a really effective treatment for foot issues. It has something to do with the medication not getting to the involved areas. And if I remember correctly, a side effect of banamine is that it acts like a tranquilisor. This might have been the 'zombie' effect you were seeing.
Just my thoughts for today. I hope you and Sam are feeling better.
Rachelle
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:40 am:
Oh Diane, I'm so sorry.
This may be a stupid question since I think just about every state has snow right now, but do you have snow? I get the impression after a quick read that he's locked in? Can you take him out and let him stand in snow 20 minutes at a time? He'd get inflammation relief without having to actually ice him. just a thought, hang in there Diane!
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:43 am:
Diane - what about a mattress pad? The memory foam ones should work real well - would be cheaper than the garden pads - and you could make a bunch of them out of one pad.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:58 am:
Diane, what size feet does Sam have? I have a pair of those soft boots that I'm not using which might fit him. I used them for my gray stallion when he was trailering a lot,but since he's retired from showing, he's not using them. I'll have to check and see what size they are, but they are, I'm thinking maybe a 5, but not sure. If you'll go to the web site you'll see how to measure for the boots. Their sizing is "backwards" to what I'd think, with smaller number being larger.
At any rate, if they'd fit you'd be welcome to use them. They have the pad that comes with them, not the pad for laminitis/founder, so check the types of pads. You might want to order the founder pad that has frog support but cushy soles like I have on Sahira. I can get them shipped out to you today if you want them. It will take only 2-3 business days to get the other pads; the company is really good about sending out quickly. The pads that are in them are probably about the equivalant of the knee pads you're using; maybe a tad softer and about the same thickness.
Look at the site and let me know.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 11:04 am:
Oh, the website is: www.soft-ride.com
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 11:08 am:
My Vet feels that icing may help before the point that damage (rotation) starts, but that after then it is a waste of time.
My farrier doesn't like much foot soaking ever and with a laminitic horse he believes softening the foot makes the lamini more apt to give out.
I prefer the ice wraps that can be applied to the legs and feet more than soaking in ice water, though I have done that too, in the past.
Standing in snow might be similar.
It seems like just the cold air itself would have some affect, but apparently not?
Have had a Vet tell me in the past that with some founders, particular horses may need Banamine VS or along with the Bute. Combining the two used to be used more frequently. Now there seem to be worries about the toxicity to liver/kidneys, especially when the two are combined?
If my horse wasn't getting enough relief from Bute, I believe I would resort to switching to Banamine for three days and then go back to the Bute.
First laminitis case I (successfully) treated years ago used Banamine twice daily for three days along with Bute, going down each day on the Bute dosage, from 3 grams on day one, then to 2 grams, and finally to 1, but I cannot recall if the dose was administered twice or just once. I also used ice wraps around the feet and legs several times daily around the clock. Did this treatment 2 or 3 times over the years on the same mare with a great outcome.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 11:12 am:
My Vet told me not to touch the foot with any kind of trimming whatsoever, until the situation is "stable," but he also said my horse's feet, though in need of a trim are in good balance and condition.
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Member:
shedwall
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:03 pm:
Diane, I am so sorry to hear about you and Sam. I have a 5 year old Paso Fino mare who has foundered twice, never been overweight a day in her life, and has insulin levels that are off the chart. She is not fed any hay that has not been tested for the lowest sugar/starch content. She is on Well Solve L/S and beet pulp.
Sorry, I could go on and on about her .... anyway, it has always been my horseshoer who has returned Ali to soundness. The vet may want her on bute or banamine during the onset - but the case always reverts over to the horseshoer who ultimately is the one who re-balances her hoof and relieves her pain.
I wish you the best and hope for Sam's speedy recovery.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:06 pm:
Diane, though I cannot make it out in the images your description is of bruising at the toe of the sole. Another possibility is if the coffin bone is rotating, there is bleeding from the torn laminae.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 1:08 pm:
Thank you for your ideas and support. Sara that is very generous of you, I have the first layer of styrofoam on Sam now...waiting for it to crush down. I did have the impression of his hoof in the gardening pad tho and it looks like he would be a size 7.
I guess I may order some tonight if the styrofoam doesn't work.
Got his poop water thawed out and replaced, I had just cleaned it out and filled it to the brim last night.. 20 gallons of frozen water and horse poop.
I did give Sam bute and banamine...but not on the same day. His stomach is very very loud today, maybe from lack of movement, he does seem to be pooping a little runny but nothing like he was.
I gave him 1.5 grams of bute this morning hopefully that gives him some relief. He was playing kissy face with Hank through the gates so he is still "with it" tho completely glued to the ground, he doesn't move at all hardly and if he does he grunts. I hope he isn't sinking he has a very striking line right below his coronet bands.. not good.
Vicki I wouldn't touch that boys hoof with a ten foot pole right now, no trimming is going to take place at this point.
Rachelle actually bute/banamine does help with the inflammation of founder, I am not so sure about the Equioxx tho, it didn't seem to help much... I hope I can get him stabalized soon.
Thank you
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:00 pm:
Diane, what do you mean there is "a very striking line right below his coronet bands"? What is that? Is it on the outside of the hoof wall?
How old is Sam and how long has (as far as you know) he been diagnosed as having Cushings?
I need to look up what Pro CMC is that Rachelle is talking about and coating the stomach.
So sorry that ole man winter is making life harder. Livestock and frozen water seem to be daily troubles in the winter with or without heaters. Be careful that you don't break your neck or leg dragging around 20 gal frozen poopsicles. I know you're really distracted with worry over Sam. Sure don't want you doing unintended cartwheels like Cheryl has been doing lately and landing in the emergency room. Might be a good idea for you to wrap your knees before you go out to doctor Sam.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:13 pm:
Ann Marie Larson, N. Illinois, Iowa & Eastern Nebraska, 309-334-2701 balancedhorse @ hotmail.com
Graduated strasser course 2002.Experienced in successful rehabilitation of Founder and Navicular. Travel through Northern Illinois, Iowa, and Eastern Nebraska. www.balancedhorse@hotmail.com (07/06)
Diane, I found this listing on the same site where I found my trimmer. Perhaps a possibility once Sam is stabilized and a bit further down the road?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:37 pm:
Good try Vicki, I have already contacted her when Hank was foundering and just from talking to her I decided she wasn't for me. I definitely agree with some of Srtassers ideas, but not with others. Just my personal opinion.
Sam seemed better with his first layer of styrofoam, second layer going on soon. Julie thanks for making me look at that styrofoam protocol again I think the first time I tried it I left to much at his toe and why it made him worse.
Vicki Yes the line is on his hoofwall right below his coronet band. I would take a pic but he is wrapped up and staying that way for awhile!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 2:47 pm:
I don't know for sure how long Sam has had cushings, he quit shedding about 7 yrs. ago...so at least 7 years. His excess urination and drinking really didn't kick in until this year for the most part. He has had on and off bouts of laminitis(nothing horrible) and Is very IR too. I think he is about 24 yrs. old. He has always had a decent hoof up until this year, I don't think it is the farriers fault, when he gets done with Sam his hoof looks pretty good. It is getting more like Hanks now tho and seems to get mis-shapen quickly. Hopefully I can keep it under control between farrier visits like I am trying to do with Hanks. When/IF he stabalizes I will give him a call and have him take a look at Sam, I think he said he would be back in Jan. some time.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 3:52 pm:
I don't think my trimmer had anything in her credentials about Strasser. Ramey but not Strasser. She is AANHCP certified and a field instructor. She also claims to practice a natural balance dentistry and studied under Spencer LaFlure, although I haven't looked that person up yet. However, in my state, only vets may practice equine dentistry, so I'm not sure about that qualification.
Poo. Was hoping to find someone you could use.
What type of line is it that you see below the coronet band? A bulge? A red line? A fracture? What does that mean?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 4:01 pm:
Vicki,
Pro CMC is the horse version of Pepto Bismol. It used to cost me $33( not sure if it was a gallon, it think it was less). My horses seemed to like the taste of it, so it made giving them their meds easier. It may have been more of a mental thing for me. It made me feel better that I was at least trying to protect their stomachs.
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 4:35 pm:
Good idea about the Pepto, Rachelle.
Diane, Poop in the water or food bucket or hay rack is bad enough. But a frozen mess of it . . . oh my.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 4:37 pm:
OK this wrapping really doesn't come easy in this cold, that poor horse has to endure another night of windchill advisories, and duct tape being wonderful just doesn't stay stuck well in this weather. I went to gorilla tape and oh yea that stays stuck so well I can't get it off. If I don't have to wrap that would be great! The styrofoam seems to be making Sam a little more comfortable, I'll know more when I go back out and feed for sure.
I'm having a real hard time thinking about coughing up over $200 dollars for the soft-rides, tho I will if I must.
I was looking around at other boot options and found the easy boot RX. I am a big fan of the comfort pads that come with them, they made Hank very comfy when he foundered and or bruised his soles. They look quite similar to the soft rides and are half the price. Anyone tried these or seen them? You guys using the soft-rides do they look similar?
https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_rx/easyboot_rx.aspx
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 4:42 pm:
They are actually $59 a piece at valley vet and I usually get them within 2 days of ordering...excluding the weekend of course.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 5:10 pm:
Might be worth $59.00 when you consider the styrofoam/taping inconvenience in the cold...and risk factor of exposure for you!! I bought the easyboot RX when I bought some other boots 30 days ago, but I haven't used it. the tack room is starting to look like a tack store...
Rachelle, I looked up the Pro CMC and it's even pink like pepto! I found prices of $32.00-35.00 per jug. When I read the description about stress induced gastric upset due to training, medications, etc. I wondered if Diva is stressed about her feet and not moving around as much. ! She doesn't seem stressed but wondered if anyone who has gone from shoes to barefoot ever gave or thought about "gastric upset"... Diva is a very sensitive girl you know...lol As if I don't borrow enough worry.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 5:17 pm:
OH and have you looked at them Vicki You must have a huge hidey hole. What is your opinion of them? They are $59 a piece so $120, but still quite a bit cheaper than the soft rides
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
Hi, Diane --
The only boots that I have around here that I own were ones that I bought to ride Lance in. First some Cavallo's, and I didn't like those at all.
Liked the Renegades for riding.
What I notice about these Soft Rides is that the gel liner does have the slight heel elevation that is often suggested for cases of laminitis.
Also, my Vet said that this pair of soft rides has been used by many other horses. Though they are old, they are still in pretty good condition though I have to wonder about the real condition of the gel liners. Horses can be turned out in them for extended periods of time if necessary, though they should be removed for cleaning every 1 - 2 days.
Perry just barely fits into the size 7 that my Vet has, and if he has foot growth before my Vet allows any trimming, it will be interesting to see if they will still fit him. My Vet said that I could remove the boots for a couple of hours (with Perry in the deep shavings) to clean and dry the boots. Perry probably won't have much growth in the next couple of weeks given the conditions.
Would you believe there is more ice in my horses' water buckets this afternoon than there was this morning at 7:30 A.M.? This in Florida.
The Easy boot describes some hooks to secure.
The Soft rides are all double velcro rather like the Super flymask II -- easy to use.
The gel liners can be removed for total scrubbing and cleaning and drying. The liners also velcro in, I think.
I guess that any of these boots can get pretty stinky and nasty so being able to dismantle them for cleaning may be an advantage.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:30 pm:
Thanks Vicki, the easy boot RX is also double velcro, I watched the video and they look very easy...easier than gorilla tape anyway!
That's why I hate buying boots, I learned with Hanks ever changing hoof they only fit for awhile. If Sam survives this his hoof is going to have to remodel too.
I couldn't tell if he felt better with the styrofoam or not, he is still pretty much glued to the ground. I am very thankful he still is eating and drinking well and playing through the gates a little bit. He is up everytime I go out there, according to the shavings on him he is laying down a little less now. He is still very painful. I left the styrofoam on it didn't seem to be making him any worse anyway.
I think I will measure for the easy boot RX tomorrow, unless he has some kind of miraculous recovery over night.. I hate to take off all that Gorilla tape and vet wrap, probably will be an all day ordeal!
Keep Sam in your horse prayers he could use them
Thanks
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 7:45 pm:
Diane, you do want a really soft pad though. I'm not familiar with the RX boots and it's hard to tell from the web site how soft the pads are. If you need more heel elevation you can stuff some padding under the heel area between the pad and boot. On a small foot it stays in place pretty good; on a bigger foot you might have to glue or velcro it to the bottom of the pad to keep it where you want it. I've bought large velcro patches at Walmart that work great for this. I know with some horses you need to shave a little off the frog support with the Soft-Rides. I like the option of the RXs of the pad without frogs. Often though the frog support is good to have, as you now. It's just that on a horse with no sole, some of the built in frog supports stick up too high and will cause frog pain.
If you wind up getting the RXs, let me know how you like them. I love the Soft-Rides, but they aren't cheap. I've had one pair for several years though, and they got used a lot. The original pad still appears to be in good shape, but on that pair it was the standard pad, not the really soft one.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:19 pm:
The comfort pads that come with them are very nice, I used them on Hank. They are like what comes with the hoof wraps.
Dr.O. and others I was just reading through the link posted about poisonous plants on Vicki Z laminitis post. My heart about fell to the ground when reading about black locusts (I have had a problem with them before)
Long story but bear with me.. I think this may be Sams problem
We don't have black locusts in our pasture, but the neighbors pasture right next to the horses fence line is LOADED with them. Every year in the late fall I end up raking those pods out of the horses pasture,usually in late Nov...I'm talking hundreds. I kept my eye on them this year and we never had a strong enough west wind to blow many off into my pasture, BUT they hung onto the trees.
We had some snow and some strong west wids in early Dec. I noticed a few in the pasture(when Sam and Hank were chewing on them) and picked up what I saw threw them back in the neighbors pasture. Then we had a weird rain with windstorm after that and it exposed all the pods that were under the snow. Nice soft pods, before I could get them all picked up it snowed again. I would bet my bottom dollar Sam was chewing on them he has a taste for them and got quite sick a couple years ago from them..UGGHHH. he was just about the same as he was then... Zombie horse, weird look in his eye, sweating(he was sweating before he foundered) and I couldn't figure out why!, he didn't founder, but I discovered this quite quickly that year and he didn't get many... that is when I started raking the pasture of them every fall.
As I was reading through the symptoms it said posterior paralysis... that is EXACTLY and I mean EXACTLY what my vet said about Sams back end and he didn't understand it.
Here is the symptoms and Sam has had them at one point or another... except death.
Affected animals often stand with feet spread apart. Other signs include depression (often extreme), diarrhea, anorexia, weakness, posterior paralysis, colic, pupil dilation, coldness of extremities, laminitis, weak pulse, and rapid, irregular heartbeat. In severe cases, death can result from cardiac failure.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:26 pm:
Hi Diane,
I'm so sorry that you and Sam are going through this. Poor Sam, sore feet and runny poop. I really feel for him, and for you having to deal with frigid cold and busted pipes, not to mention buckets of frozen poop-cicles. Yuck!
My vet is very enthusiastic about the soft rides. I have some cavallos but Suzy seems more comfortable just in deep bedding. Like you, the price of the soft rides is steep for me. I wish that I could know ahead of time if they would help or not, and also whether or not my fragile hands could handle putting them on and taking them off. If so, they would be a good investment, especially if using them at the first sign of hard ground might help prevent future episodes.
Anyway, I'm thinking of you and Sam. I sure hope this turns around soon.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:31 pm:
Oh my, Diane.
From one year to the next it becomes hard to remember to worry about all of this stuff that may grow either in our pastures or along our fence lines.
Especially when we have no incidents for a few years.
I guess that I should have kept a yearly journal and studied it a month ahead so that I would remember what to look for and what weeds may pop up as there are some around the waste areas of my yard right now that certainly are toxic, so they are most likely in the pastures as well.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
Wow, Diane, I just read your last entry. From your reading is there any way of knowing if this is what has happened to Sam? And is there any antidote? We used to give activated charcoal to people when they ingested poison. But at this late date it may be that the toxins would already be through the GI tract and too late to try and bind them. We need Dr. O on this one.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 9:32 pm:
Link for images of black locust (known also as yellow locust) tree.
www.mntca.org/images/photos/resources/treeid/dec_alt_loc_black/ph_loc_blacklocus t_lrg_07
We have lots of these trees in the south farm woods. Glad none on the homestead where the horses are. Diane, I read that if a horse ingested the seed pods, usually the symptoms appear in an hour. ?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 9, 2010 - 10:07 pm:
Jo Ann I can not know for sure, but the timing is right from onset of symptoms. I do know he likes them where Hank and Flash aren't very attracted to them. The more I think about it the more I am convinced that may be the problem. This "founder" seems to be way too severe for bruising of the soles.
The weird back end, it is almost paralyzed that is what the vet called it. I kind of poo pooed it thinking it was just his back feet hurting, but he doesn't even stretch out to pee...not even a little. The diarrhea which has never gotten from nasids before, the growling upset stomach I mentioned today. He is pooping A lot and it is runny, his tail is covered with it. His pupils looked dilated to me and still do, but the vet didn't look at them, the zombie act he has had, the not being able to chew right when I first locked him up, high resp..vet said from pain. I was checking his DP,s when I first locked him up and thought his pulse felt weird along with the throbbing. It was a thready pounding and fast... I thought maybe I was imagining it
Anyway where these pods mostly blow are on the lower part of the "dry lot" I actually have a fence splitting the dry lot because of this and close it off, they can go around another way and get in there if they want to...if they aren't locked up. I noticed Sam in that part of the dry lot for a couple days a few weeks ago, I remember thinking it strange when there is nothing in there to eat (the pods didn't even occur to me) Hank and Flash were out pawing in the pasture. The timing is almost perfect for onset of symptoms. When Sam started acting strange, I locked them in the dry lot...where of course there are a few more pods...I remember seeing a half chewed one...sigh.
Here is a pic of our fenceline, you can see there are still pods on the trees if you look closely.(everyone of those trees is a black locust) If we get a west wind they all end up in the horses pasture.
Dr.O. is this possible? Is there anything I can do for it if it is possible???
Probably to late at this point.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 8:25 am:
Gosh Diane, I am sorry for you and Sam.
A thought on the Bute and stomach buffers:
The NSAIDs are COX isoenzymes inhibitors.
Cox-1 isoenzymes play some role in the production of protective mucus in the stomach. So, the systemic response increases risk of ulser. I believe the risk is related to the action of the drug in the system, more than the presence of the drug in the animals stomach. In other words, even injecting Bute runs the risk of producing stomach ulsers. Not sure what benefit there would be to horsey pepto.
The approved Cox-2 inhibitor, Firocoxib, should not have the same systemic risk. Unfortunately, not much study has been done on to quantify the risks of this drug. Anecdotal information, I gathered, by reading user comments on line, were pretty frightening, but not much information on use in horses.
I discussed this with my vet. She said that she has had horses on daily doses of Bute for long periods of time with no ill effect. That she would consider the use of Firocoxib in cases where Bute was ineffective. But, she did not have enough information to evaluate risk of long term use.
That said, I have heard from several people that their horses with hoof pain responded better to Firocoxib than Bute.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 10:34 am:
Thanks for this information Guy.
My Vet was explaining to me this morning how Bute changes the stomach secretions.
He also said that typically horses that are in the throes of laminitis already have so much stomach irritation that they have ulcerations.
My horse Perry, being treated for laminitis was in early colic this morning. Will post all of the details on my thread.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 12:44 pm:
Sam spent most of the night down, according to his body (frost and shavings) it was one of the coldest night we've had, I do wish it would warm up.
He didn't look any better, still glued to the ground. I don't know whether to give him bute, banamine, or equioxx..OR nothing. he does seem to have an over active stomach I hear it rumbling quite loudly all the time.. He poops quite a bit, it is slightly runny at this point. I haven't seen him pee for awhile so gonna clean his stall good so I can check on that
This is such a weird founder, he doesn't switch weight, he doesn't stand stretched out, he is just glued to the ground. Obviously he gets up and down alright.
I am going to take his pads off today to see what is going on and order some of the easy boot RX's. I'll see if I can get a decent pic of his hooves and what concerns me when I remove his pads.
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Member:
ptownevt
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 12:55 pm:
Oh, Diane, I am so sorry that Sam is having such an awful time. It is so hard to see them in pain. My IR pony foundered in the winter a few years ago. I did find that trimming his feet helped him a great deal. When he first showed adopted the stance I called my farrier and vet. After a few days and some research I decided to try taking his heels down a bit. He could only hold up a foot for less than a minute at a time due to the pain. It took a while but we got the first foot done. I stood up to let him rest. After only a couple of minutes he actually picked up the other front foot and offered it to me to trim. When I finished he walked away noticeably more comfortable. I know I'm not there and can't possibly know what you do about Sam. Just trying to share my experience in my grasping at straws for something to offer.
Pam
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 1:09 pm:
Thanks Pam that is one of the many strange things about this founder, Sam will hold his front hooves up all day if I wanted him to. When Hank foundered he couldn't hardly hold his leg up long enough to do a quick wrap job...dunno.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 1:23 pm:
Diane, regarding my input on the Easy Boot RX boots, you know I know very little so I'd hate to give advice. I bought them to have on hand in case I needed to medicate a foot. Wouldn't really know what to tell you other than what you read on the website. However, Easy Boot appears to be a good, popular brand. My trimmer recommends them. And they are certainly cheaper than the Soft Rides. ! Sorry I'm no help.
It is very strange to me that Sam will hold his fronts up for you. ?! If he is glued to the ground, one would think he wouldn't want to lift them up. Could it be that he will lift them Just For You, even though it hurts?
I'd be giving him something to help keep the inflammation down if he can tolerate it. ?
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 2:37 pm:
I wish I had some words of wisdom to add here Diane but I've never dealt with the severity that you are.
When do you see/talk with the vet next? Does he know that Sam is not appearing to improve yet on the current treatment? When I did have a very mild case of laminitis here about 10 years ago, the treatment included a vasodilator...has the vet mentioned any? I'm just worried about Sam and trying to think of a more aggressive approach I guess...
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 2:53 pm:
Patty, I will probably call him tomorrow, he will tell me to keep giving him nasids and that's about the amount of help he will be.
I am going to start a part 2 I have a few questions for Dr.O.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 4:38 pm:
Diane, I feel so bad for you and Sam. Have you thought of calling an animal poison control center? I just checked on line and found this:
The National Animal Poison Control Center (NAPPC) of the University of Illinois can be reached by calling 1-900-680-0000 or 1- 800-548-2423. The NAPPC is located at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and is a non-profit service of the University of Illinois. It was the first animal-oriented poison center founded (in 1978) in the United States. It provides advice to animal owners and confers with veterinarians about poisoning exposures.
Resources: The NAPCC's phones are answered by licensed veterinarians and board-certified veterinary toxicologists. The NAPCC staff have a wide range of information specific to animal poisoning. They also have an extensive collection of individual cases -- over 250,000 -- involving pesticide, drug, plant, metal, and other exposures in food producing and companion animals. This specialized information lets the experienced NAPCC staff make specific recommendations for animals, rather than generalized poison information provided by a human poison control center.
Cost: Depending on which option is chosen, the charge is $20.00 for the first five minutes, then $2.95/minute thereafter when using the 900 number. If you use the 800 number, the charge is $30.00 per case (VISA, MasterCard, Discover, or American Express only). With the 800 access, only the NAPCC will do as many follow-up calls as necessary in critical cases and, if you wish, will consult with your veterinarian.
Sounds reasonably priced, and might be worth a shot.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:12 pm:
Patty makes a good point. I believe that is what the pills that I am giving to Perry are for -- to improve the circulation to the feet, and they do not cause gastric changes/ulcers.
It is horribly hard to see suffering such as Sam is going through.
That is odd, Diane, that Sam can hold his front feet up for any length of time. We were having some trouble off and on with Perry doing this with his present laminitis.
It does rather sound like Sam is having some rear-end pain and I believe that Perry is too. Strange situations.
Also, one must wonder how much Sam's lying down might be due to digestive pain (ulcers?). Perry was lying down when he was feeling the worst in this regard. Lying down and sighing.
Jo Ann, that sounds like an interesting resource.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
Jo Ann thank you for looking that up, but I can not be 100% sure what the cause of this is. I really couldn't give specifics as to how much or the even exact day at this point. I am going to put it in my records tho it seems like a good resource..
Thanks Again
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 9:26 pm:
Diane -- posted some new comments on my thread about Perry.
Thinking so much of you and Sam as we go through our ordeal.
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