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Discussion on Sams founder 2
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 3:34 pm:
Dr. O. I unwrapped Sams hooves and they really are bad. I guess I have been to worried about Hanks hooves and haven't been paying attention.
I measured Sam for boots and I couldn't believe how long his hoof is. It is longer than Hanks, but not as wide BOY they are awful. I guess the good part is he and Hank take the same boot size now
Regardless of the cause of this founder I do have to get it under control ASAP
I read through the article and I am not clear whether it is a good idea to do anything to an acute founders hooves or not. It says to remove toe flare. I almost thought about rockering his toe a little like I did to Hanks, but his WL looks very red and angry so don't know if it would be a good idea or not.
Sam seems to be having a strange founder..out of my experience with founder anyway. He willingly picks up all hooves for as long as I want them. He is basically "glued" to one spot he may take 10 steps total through out the day. he is not weight shifting. He is not USUALLY in a founder stance. He is not stretching out to pee...just stands there. VERY loud gut sounds. Wrapping with styrofoam didn't seem to make a difference one way or the other.
He does for the most part have a good appetite and is drinking well.
I took a few shots of his hooves... I didn't want to move him so they aren't the greatest.
Should I put a rocker on his toe or leave them alone for now? His heel is very high and long also.
Should I continue with nasids considering the gut sounds and runny poop? Which one would be the best choice considering? banamine, bute or euioxx? would naproxen maybe be a better choice?
I am going to order him some boots, I don't know if they will help or not, but worth a try. It is TOO cold to be wrapping hooves!
Here are pics of his hooves best I could get
In this one you can see how stretched his WL is, it is also a deep red color, I do know his WL was not this stretched before. Not even close.
Sam.. I know he looks really fat, it is mostly that ungodly long hair of his. I can feel his ribs very easily, he does have the "weird fat" on his butt, and some on his backside. He stands under himself well...considering
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 4:18 pm:
Diane....while you wait to hear from DrO, the first thing that came to my mind, after seeing these new pics, is X-rays as soon as possible. My guess is that you have rotation going on and some hoof wall separation that may need long term protection via shoes as soon as it's safe to put them on.
The rings on the hoof.....are they on all four or just the front? How long has he had them? Has he ever had rotation before? Therapeutic shoes? I cared for a friend's horse for 4+ years while she was serving her company command in Germany years ago and her horse had some hoof separation that had to have shoes to protect that area from grit getting up in there...........
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 4:35 pm:
Patty, Yes definitely rotation going on and if I had to guess from his WL plenty of it. his WL was never that stretched.... not good.
I ordered his boots, I would love to take the hoof wall down a bit, but don't know if it is wise at this point.
His hooves ARE horrible looking all around, look like Hanks when he was chronically foundering (tho this is definitely an acute attack)His back hooves are as bad if not worse.
The pictures really bring out the rings..in person they don't look quite that striking... so according to the rings he has been having lamintis attacks for at least this hoof growth, OR they are from his long toe underrun heel.
Sam hasn't been hoof sore that I could tell except early fall when I started him on pergolide.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:20 pm:
Oh WOW, Diane,
I hope that you hear from Dr. O soon.
It does look like there is considerable separation going on and I certainly hope that the coffin bone is not going to come right through the bottom.
I posted some on the old thread before reading this one.
It still seems strange though that Hank can stand on one front foot without a problem
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:48 pm:
My fear exactly Vicki. He seemed to have a little better day today. When I feed at night I throw Flash and Hank a small leaf out in the dry lot to keep Hank out of my way while I clean the lean to.
Sam hasn't really cared about that. Tonight he threw a tantrum because they got hay and he didn't. he didn't really move much, which is probably good, but he was throwing his head and showing his displeasure. While I was cleaning the lean to he actually STRETCHED out and peed... Little things but it shows his depression is getting better. He also looked a little brighter in the eye.
I think nasids are probably important now, but I didn't give him any this morning.. he got 1.5 grams last night. He didn't seem any worse today and maybe a little better actually. So I am going to continue with that(1.5 at night) unless something drastic happens. He didn't lay down today either..he has been laying down a couple times a day.. I don't see it but I can tell from the shavings on him, I always brush them off of him so I can tell. I do believe he eats supper and then spends most of the night down...which is probably good.
The no weight shifting and being able to stand while I pick up his hoof is very confusing. Hank couldn't hold up one hoof for more than a few seconds when he foundered.. Matter of fact he stands with a back leg cocked most of the day...quite comfortably...dunno
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 10, 2010 - 5:54 pm:
Diane,
I'm getting similar from Perry with a back leg.
What you said about Sam's day does sound like an improvement, and I so hope things will continue to look up for him.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 6:38 am:
Diane that certinaly is a odd presentation for a foundering horse.
Diarrhea is a sign of NSAID toxicity in horses but I do not know if this is what is happening in your horse. And if you have founder the continued use of NSAID is indicated. The decision to continue there use will have to be made by someone who can examine the horse but if you do continue, firocoxib might be the safest choice.
Though these feet do need some attention, I don't think I would do a lot right now unless I thought the pain might be do to the longness of the foot, something not apparent from the images above.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:05 am:
Thanks Dr.O. it is a VERY strange presentation which makes it even harder to figure out how to treat him.
When he does move(which isn't often) it is quite apparent his hooves hurt. No type of padding really seems to give him any relief.
I don't know if the diarrhea is caused by the nasids, he did have it when I tried equioxx for a couple days too. It actually seemed a little better yesterday and his stomach didn't sound so loud and grumbly.
If he hasn't changed overnight I guess I will leave him on the 1.5 grams at night and nothing during the day, that seemed to work OK yesterday.
I am thankfully working in town this week so can come home and check him periodically. I may have the vet out again today, I just know what he will say tho , and it is expensive to get the same opinion every time he is here.
Hopefully he will keep improving in small increments... I almost hate going out in the mornings for fear of what I'll find.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 8:42 am:
I called the vet and he is going to come out this morning, we are going to try to get to the bottom of his problem if possible. x-rays and blood tests.
I don't like the way he talked he said if his x-rays are bad I may not be able to deal with it...sigh.
Will let you know how it goes.
Dr.O. since he has been a nasids for quite awhile would that change his blood tests enough to give false reading in any values?
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 9:08 am:
Diane,
My Prayers are with you and Sam. I am sure you have done this but make sure the vet knows your suspicions about Sam's suspected poisoning. It might make a difference to uncovering what happened.
Good luck
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 9:15 am:
Diane,
I would definitely take care of his hoofs first thing. Taking his heels down, and beveling the whole wall would be my first priority. I don't care what x-rays show, he needs his heels lowered as much as he can tolerate, and those walls beveled, IMHO. I think I would leave some height for a bit at the toe.
I wouldn't waste money on x-rays, again, MY opinion based on my somewhat limited knowledge, I don't see what you do different with seeing the x-rays vs not seeing them...you treat as foundered hoofs!
Of course I am cheap that way ;-)! And don't have much tolerance for medical professionals who want to give drugs and all kinds of tests...sorry, my personal rant! (Nothing personal DrO)
Then pad his hoofs, and recheck everything in a week.
I personally would only continue meds for about 3 days, you want movement for stimulation, yet not too much movement. Anything to mask the pain could cause too much movement and that would be bad. Yet the first couple of days you want to get inflammation under control.
What day are we on here?
I tell ya Diane, with what you've spent on vets, meds, add the headaches, plus the time typing for advice on here, you could take your own trimming course! At the very least, order PR's dvds for $249, and teach yourself how to best deal with everything you've got going on lately.
If anyone can tell me how to get jammed DVD's out of my computer, I could review the lamintis DVD! I think I am remembering correctly when I offer something but the mind is a funny thing as we age, lol!
I only want the best for Sam & you; I know you are in a tough spot, been there with vets around here, I know the drill, same diagnosis every time mine comes out too. All lameness is a stone bruise, but she's wonderful for bloody emergencies, and colic's.
Take care of you too!
If the blood tests show something, I'll be eating crow; caw, caw, caw!!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 9:23 am:
Oh Diane, sorry to hear bad news may be looming. I hope the X-Rays give a clear picture and hope the news isn't too bad. It really is worrisome that he doesn't want to move at all. But strange that he will give you his feet.
My mother was a brittle diabetic for 41 years and injection insulin dependent for all of those 41 years. She had many ailments develop through the years but managed to make it far longer than I ever thought her body would take her. Sam may surprise your vet and pull through this ailment too. Mom fooled the doctors time and time again for years.
I know I always feared the worst and hoped for the best. Good luck with the vet today I'll be thinking of you and Sam.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 10:05 am:
Thinking of you and Sam today Diane...I hope things go well when the vet comes out this morning......
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 12:12 pm:
Diane, so sorry to hear Sam isn't well. His feet do look pretty long, but I'm not sure whether bringing them into shape would help (bringing his angles back into balance and relieving any pulling) or hurt (putting more weight bearing and pressure on his tender soles)...
I was looking through these posts and trying to determine what all symptoms he is presenting right now. I came up with:
not moving around
lame when he does move
depressed
diarrhea
unusually loud gut sounds
stretched/red white line
Is that right or ?
Since he is not presenting the classic founder stance and will let you pick up his feet, I thought it might be helpful to outline exactly what all the symptoms are .. like is he lame on all 4 or just his fronts? Just want to be sure we're not missing anything that could help point to a cause and the best course of treatment.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 2:33 pm:
Hoping for the best for Sam and you, Diane.
The one thing about X-rays that I have to think may be helpful is that it is possible to see the position of the coffin bone and how much rotation has taken place.
If you are not going to trim anything until you know that Sam is stable, knowing this is not as important.
However, if the coffin bone is very near to the sole, that might tell you that it is not safe to do any trimming quite yet.
I think that many Vets now say (as a reversal of past treatment) to raise the heels slightly to relieve the stress on the tendon and thereby help to preserve the connection of the lamini?
Will post up-date about Perry in case there is anything helpful or of interest between our two cases.
Take care -- all best wishes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 2:59 pm:
Thanks . The vet was here and I had him do a thorough exam this time!!! All of Sams vitals are good, temp was normal. Bouding pulses in all 4. He did bring the x-ray machine, but then we decided not to x-ray at this time, Sam was acting very nervous and we don't want to tranq him...too cold.
Vet said at this point it don't matter anyway, the treatment will be the same regardless. He did pull blood and going to check everything out there including his insulin and glucose.
He said to keep him on bute, he didn't think it was a problem. He did say the black locusts are a possibility, but then again it don't matter the cause the treatment is the same unless something is wacky in his blood work. Sam looked a little better again today..still not moving, but his demeanor isn't so painful, his pulses are still thumping pretty good. We figure he isn't moving because he is foundering in all 4. Vet thought it odd how well he will hold his hooves up too, I didn't give him any bute this morning either.
SOO there it is in a nutshell, he said I should trim him when he is stable...said he loved how Hanks hooves looked now
Back to work! Gotta support these animals..thanks for the well wishes..Sam does need them.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 4:01 pm:
Sorry to hear about bounding pulses in all feet, Diane but happy that vitals look good and hope that you will get good news about the blood work.
Hope that Sam will respond to treatment and be "stable" soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 6:58 pm:
Shannon the diarrhea seems to have gone away His tail is starting to clean up a little.
His depression is definitely improved, Zombie horse is gone thank goodness! He is talking like crazy again, and very interested in his surroundings again. Throwing his head when he thinks he should be fed.
The good news is he seemed to be unglued from the ground tonight when I fed, definitely more movement, tho painful he did move and didn't grunt when he did.
Angie, vet said not to touch those hooves until he is stable, once he is I will have the farrier out...He is back I saw him at the grocery store. In a way I wouldn't mind slowly working on Sam's hooves...we'll see how this all turns out first. He is not out of the woods by any means.
Vet thinks this is caused by his cushings disease, I'm not so sure myself. Vet said he was not fat at all..in good weight.. a 5 bcs. Sam is very IR too, so maybe he got into something that set him off dunno. The black locusts are close to the top of my list, because of the timing, and symptoms. The diarrhea making me very suspicious. Vet even commented on how much was on his tail.
His gut sounds are calming down, but still very loud now and then. Vet said he would rather hear them like that then nothing at all... guess that's true...perspective.
I think his boots should be here Weds. hope they help him a little.
So all in all, small(very small) improvement is taking place, but that's better than going the other way! He did not lay down today again, which is a good sign. AND it actually got in the 20's today... and stay in the 20's to 30's all week, that will be VERY helpful for ME and him!
Thanks
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:12 pm:
Glad to hear he is feeling a little better Diane! Such an odd bunch of symptoms. My instincts would be the same as yours, that the founder was a result of some kind of poisoning, since the onset of symptoms were at the same time. I guess as you said the cause is irrelevant since the treatment is the same either way. I just always like to know the why's.
I had a mare once on a farm where I worked that was living in a dry lot, no access to pasture, no change at all in her diet or living conditions, that just foundered out of nowhere one day. We could only guess that there was something in her hay that caused it.
Best wishes for a speedy and uneventful recovery!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:33 pm:
Hi Diane - just want to add my good wishes. It is encouraging that you see a small improvement.
Hang in there,
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 7:59 pm:
Sounds like things are looking up, Diane and will hope for continual improvement.
Very good news indeed!
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Jan 11, 2010 - 8:08 pm:
Yea! So glad to read good news.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 8:27 am:
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea for Sam to come "unglued" from the ground, he looks VERY horrible again.
The strange thing is I don't feel any heat and just a very mild dp in fronts. stronger DP's in back. I think this founder is actually worse in his rears.
If I get home early enough I am going to try to wrap them and see if it helps him any.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 9:13 am:
With such acute changes see if perhaps the bedding is not getting a bit thin, I am sure the ground underneath is frozen rock hard.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 9:57 am:
Yes the ground is VERY frozen! He has a lot of bedding in his stall and it is not thin.. I did check that.
Maybe it is the extreme cold, it got very frigid last night again. I just came home to check him and give him some bute and he is "glued" to the ground again and did not finish his hay. He is weight shifting a bit in the back.
Thanks
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 4:55 pm:
Oh my, Diane --
So sorry that Sam, and thereby you also, are having to go through all of this.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 5:50 pm:
Thanks Vicki, I am starting to have second thoughts about having Sam in a little stall... he can only move in circles basically...which is not good. I shooshed Hank and Flash out of the lean to and let him walk in there a little, (there is quite a bit of bedding on their side too...plus I had the quick wrap boots with pads on. He didn't seem half as painful being able to stretch a bit and go in a straight line. The more he moved (at his choice) the better he looked.
I think tomorrow I am going to give him a bigger section of the lean to and see if that helps him any.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 12, 2010 - 7:44 pm:
Good observation, Diane,
Hope that this will help Sam.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 5:15 pm:
Wondering how Sam is doing today...........
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 6:41 pm:
Thanks for asking Patty. I don't know how Sam is doing.. I don't have a feel for what is going on with him. He is no worse nor no better. I hope I'm not making him suffer if he can't be fixed. Sometimes he looks OK (as far as demeanor) and sometimes his eyes look very painful.
I did get the easy boot RX's today with the comfort pads.. I LIKE them, very easy on and off... tho they didn't seem to make Sam any more comfortable. His diarrhea seems to be making a reappearance too. Tho his stomach is not as grumbly as it has been. I don't know whether to continue the bute or not.
The vet even called this afternoon to see how he was doing.. (very nice of him) I told him there was really no improvement. He said to hang in there, maybe his bloodwork would show something and he would call me the minute they get the results in. He was hoping there was at least a little improvement.. I said me too.
It finally warmed up to the 30's today so I am pulling out all the stops and even started soaking his hay. I have so much bedding in his stall, his head is going to be at the roof soon
I don't know what more I can do, but wait and see.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 7:45 pm:
Wishing you and Sam all of the best,Diane.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 9:47 pm:
Oh Diane....I fear that at this point the only way to answer that question would be to know what the coffin bone is doing. Is there a way for the vet to get the X-rays if he does them first before Sam gets excited by him being there? Knowing how much it has rotated could give you a glimps of where he is and where you both are heading. Like you, I hang in there but, the X-rays would be the window of prognosis, especially since there hasn't been much sign of improvement...IMHO.
I don't remember but is Sam also on horsey Pepcid? My vet prescribes them any time there's long term bute to avoid ulcers, etc.
Good luck with the new boots, I sincerely hope they help so you can feel like you're on the right track. The only time I've used a boot (or a duck tape shoe) was when treating an abscess so I don't have much of a history with them.
I noticed in your post that you're soaking his hay......I bought a heated tub just for soaking haynets....and it works great as long as someone remembers to remove the hose from the frost free faucet. Somewhere in the wide world of Internet, I do remember reading that some horses are so sensitive that even switching their hay can trigger a lamininic episode. By soaking it, it's one more variable to take out of the equation.
Over this past year, I have learned that to control Ziggy's insulin spikes/aggressive behavior it takes a combination of controlling every aspect of his diet. If I slack on one, it comes back to bite me. His grain is Triple Crown Lite, his grass time is highly controlled per season, his hay is weighed, first cut orchard grass served in haynets, after soaking for at least an hour. Fortunately for me, I can tell what is going on with him by how aggressively he attacks his hay. Anything more than calmly tells me to adjust his grass time. If all of the above won't sustain his weight, I add Triple Crown Rice Bran Oil and it works great without triggering the aggressive appetite.
I'm looking for your updates every time I hit the computer....and hoping for good news. Good luck with the boots and post when you can.
((((((((((Diane and Sam))))))))))
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 10:32 pm:
I just went out and checked Sam, now that it isn't 50 below zero I can do that. He is so weird, he just standing there with his back leg cocked, looking very comfy (as long as he doesn't move) Ate all his soaked hay up already!
The strange thing about this whole thing is he isn't really lying down more than normal, you would think if his feet were killing him he would be.
His appetite is good
I feel no heat in any of his feet. Small dp in fronts... more so in back. I do know when Hank foundered he had Big Dp's in all 4 hooves, but when Hank foundered or any other horse I have seen with founder they tend to weight their back legs when they walk... walk with the back legs forward and under them, anyone that has seen a foundering horse walk knows what I mean, Sam isn't walking like that he just walks painfully and slowly. Sam isn't really switching weight either, occasionally I see him do it, but it doesn't seem extreme.
I put Sam's boots with pads on when I cleaned the lean to and opened the gate to leave him go out while I cleaned his stall.. The ground is VERY SOFT with our warmer temps, with lots of deep soft snow. He seems to feel a little better when I let him move a little, tho it is very painful to watch the poor guy.
Dr.O. I videoed Sam walking, is this the way a horse walks when they are foundering in all 4?? Hank didn't.
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100113Sam#5426394551546270258
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 10:37 pm:
Meant to add this one too, this is all the further I let him walk and he eats a little with Flash and I put him away in his stall.
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100113Sam#5426430183095769426
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 - 11:16 pm:
Diane it sure is a different walk. He isn't weighting his hinds a lot, like you said. ? Sure hope he gets better soon.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 12:07 am:
Well those videos are sorta puzzling aren't they? I know you probably don't have any smooth ground that's hard, but it'd be interesting to see if he's really trying to land heel first, like a foundered horse. In the deep snow it's hard to tell but it doesn't look as if he is. Will he pivot around a front foot or does he kind of walk a circle to turn (do you know what I mean???)? I can only imagine how hard it is for you to watch him in pain and do everything you're doing and not see improvement.......sigh. I hope you can get to the bottom of this--actually even if you don't get to the bottom of it, I hope he just starts improving!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 6:49 am:
Hard ground or soft this is how he walks. This is how he has been walking since it started.
In his stall when he turns... he shuffles... does not do the classic founder turn. Something is wrong with that hind end, I suppose if he was foundering in back too this is how he would move. That's why I wanted Dr.O. to see the video's. When Hank foundered in all 4 he was constantly weight shifting, and he was on high doses of bute.
Sams lR seems to be painful around the fetlock area. he will willingly pick up all 4 feet, but when I just touch his fetlock for LR he snaps it up soon as I touch it... did that for vet too.
I'm sure he is foundering, but it is a strange presentation.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 6:53 am:
Diane,
When I checked out the videos. Two things crossed my mind. Sam seems to be unsure of where to put his feet, but it doesn't look like its from a pain perspective, more like he can't see where he's going and he's using his other senses to tell him where to put his feet. Did the vet check his eyes.
The second thing, did the vet do any neurological testing on him? If I remember right in one of your earlier parts, you mentioned paralysis. Did he say anything about botulism poisoning, maybe from the black locusts he ate that seems to be a trigger.
Also, as far as laying down and getting up. He may feel like if he lays down, he won't be able to get up. Hopefully the blood tests will reveal something.
Prayers for you and Sam.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 7:12 am:
Rachelle his eye have been very runny, one day when he was in one of his stupors I waved my hands in front of his eyes, and there was barely a response (Sam is a very nervous type arab) and I thought that strange. I do believe his eyesight is ok tho. He watches everything that is going on and spotted a deer on the back hill a few days ago.
He gets up and down ok, I saw him get up yesterday. I think he lays down most at night according to the shavings on him, but for how long I'm not sure. He is up during the day when ever I look at him. This is all good in my mind, I'm very glad he isn't down most of the time, and his appetite remains good. Otherwise I would be more worried than I am!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 7:23 am:
Almost looks like he's afraid of falling, tipping toeing on ice type walk. He could be very sore on all 4, yet if it was from hoof flare, you would feel heat and pounding dp I would think.
It doesn't seem as if he's staggering either. When Willow hurt something in her neck or spine (she apparently crashed into a fence post) she walked with lowered head and her front feet actually would cross over in front she staggered so much.
I dunno...something hurting somewheres for sure.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 7:44 am:
All we can really say about this clip is that the horse is walking slowly with shorter than normal steps. There may be a bit of extra upward head motion associated with front limb foot placement.
Yes a horse sore on all 4 feet might walk like that but then again so would horses with multiple leg lameness of any cause, muscle pain, horses unsure of their footing, horses with systemic disease that makes them feel bad, and even blindness might cause such a gait.
Horses with founder will not typically look the same on soft and hard ground and as Julie points out a real difference should be seen as the horse tries to turn on a small circle with resistance, greatly shortened stride, and remarkable head rise.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 7:51 am:
 Guess all I can do is watch and wait for his blood tests.
Thanks
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 9:49 am:
Diane - so sorry that Sam's malady continues to confound. Love your icon! Can't offer anything other than my best wishes that Sam will come around soon.
Hang in there (need an icon for that),
Lilo
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 10:24 am:
Just checking in to see how Sam's doing this morning before taking my mom to the doctor.......
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 10:33 am:
Sam is the same.. vet just called as I was on my way home to check him and said he got all the bloodwork back except Insulin and glucose will get that this afternoon.
He said everything was perfect.. kidneys, liver, ect. CPK was just slightly high which is to be expected.. normal ends at 300 Sams was 380.
I told him I think Sam is actually worse in the rear end, he said that would be atypical, but with a cushings horse one never knows.
He said he would call me as soon as the insulin and glucose comes in around 2. He said he expects the insulin to be high. Even tho he is not fat we have to get some kind of diet control. I told him I started soaking his hay and other than that he gets a cup of timothy pellets... don't know what more I can do...IF indeed his insulin is high...
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 11:15 am:
 Hang in Thar!!
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 2:07 pm:
Diane,
Thoughts, prayers and hugs go out to you and Sam. The not knowing is the worst.
Hugs, Shirl
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 4:42 pm:
Thanks.. The vet called and Sam insulin and glucose results didn't come back today.
I decided to wrap Sams back hooves with the garden kneeling pad stuff and put his easy boots with pads on fronts again.. he did move better... still quite sore but a decent improvement. So I guess that shows all 4 hooves are involved equally or the rears may be even a little worse.
I did take a tiny bit off his heel and if he seems no worse for wear tomorrow will take a little more.. I'm being very conservative.
That guy has a heart of a tiger and a will to match, I hope I am able to bring him out of this. Seeing no improvements at all is disheartening.
Thanks for your prayers and thoughts
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 5:27 pm:
Believe me, I feel your pain, Diane.
Little is more disheartening than an equine illness that drags on and on . . .
So hoping for things to improve for Sam.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 6:44 pm:
Dr.O. if a foundering horse is kept on very deep bedding is there a need to pad and/or boot their feet also when they are on the deep bedding?
If so, why?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 14, 2010 - 6:56 pm:
Sorry Dr.O. forgot one other question. I have been soaking Sams hay the last 2 days and his water consumption has cut more than in half. Obviously it is because he is getting moisture from the hay, but would they get that much??
He was drinking a good 10 gals. a day, now maybe 2-3 gals a day.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:04 am:
Ya know as I was typing on Vickis post it occured to me that the horses were getting free choice hay because of the crazy weather, Sam did put on weight, not a lot but defintiely was putting on the pounds... maybe that is what put him over the edge. I noticed all the horses were getting fatter and even commented to Hank he was getting a little too fat and his crest was growing a little. (yes I talk to the horses). Sam is a little harder to tell because of all of his hair. I do feel them to see if I can feel their ribs. I could feel Sams but it appeared his "weird fat" was getting bigger. I noticed yesterday his "weird fat" is going down.... maybe a good sign. I have cut Hanks food way back too, all I need is 2 foundering horses in the dead of winter!
Just another theory, because I sure would like to know the cause of this!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:38 am:
That "weird fat" is scary stuff. Both of my Arabs have it (though Lance has none above his tail).
Lance even had it near his shoulders when he was 100 + pounds underweight, with his hip bones and ribs showing, which I have read can happen with IR/Cushings.
Buddy is overweight too, but no "weird fat" on this stocky, quarterhorse type, large-barreled paint boy.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:53 am:
I keep checking for ribs too Diane! The cold had everyone fluffed out like a school of puffer fish. I also keep feeling necks, tail heads, legs, etc. The horses probably wonder why the heck the human keeps handling us all over all the time! I cut back on calories after the weather broke also. Yesterday it was 40. Big swing from 0. Today the fog is thick, the ground is soggy on top, snow is melting. Sloppy. They may never get to leave the drylot...
Sure hope Sam is better soon.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:54 am:
It is funny how some horses accumulate "weird fat" and some don't... I think it can be quite telling.
Flash is a porky pony, but she has no weird fat..she does get a cresty neck when overweight and hangs on to it even in good weight.
She has no other fat pads. She has hooves of steel, and never a problem with them. She did shed a little slower last summer, but did shed completely out, not sure if old age was the cause of this or (hopefully not) she is getting CD. I have noticed her drinking and peeing more, but nothing horribly out of the ordinary. Somedays I wish I just had young horses... tho I do love my old ones...just more challenging.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 9:12 am:
Mine are 11-12, but that one Haffie always worries me as he is a vacuum cleaner if left to his own devices...and of course Diva and her hoof management...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:39 am:
I don't find pads help much when a horse is kept on soft deep bedding and I agree with you it seems unlikely that Sam is picking up an extra 7 gallons of water from the soaked hay. The article on Wintertime care has some tips to encourage drinking.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 1:38 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I have more questions.
The vet called and Sams insulin is VERY VERY high.
I think he said normal is 5-20 Sams was 400 something. Said he has never seen one that high before. Glucose was normal
He didn't sound very encouraging at all, he said this high insulin is being caused by Sam's cushings disease and all I can do is try to keep him comfortable
I'll have to go through the article later as I just popped in to check Sam.
Is or can high insulin be caused by CD alone???
He didn't sound too encouraged about being able to bring it down with diet alone and of course Sam can't exercise because he can't move.
Is there any hope to this????? I DO NOT want to make this horse suffer if there isn't.
Sams demeanor seems good, his appetite is good.. he has slowed considerably on drinking since I started watering down his hay... his "weird fat" is coming down...
I don't expect he is going to go from glued to the ground to normal overnight, but VERY small improvement is taking place... repeat VERY small.
I would call him stabalized at this point... I think.
Thanks
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Member:
klowe
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 3:06 pm:
Diane, I believe that the very high insulin coupled with normal glucose would be considered compensated IR. Sam is still able to produce sufficient amounts of insulin to keep his glucose levels normal, but it takes more than normal amounts of insulin to do so. When his body is unable to maintain those high insulin levels any longer, and/or his IR worsens, his glucose will begin to go up. At least that is my understanding...I am sure Dr. O will say if I am wrong!
When I did bloodwork on Paint summer before last, his glucose was normal (our lab isn't equipped to do horse insulin levels) and so I stopped worrying at that point about his Cushings. Then last summer, when his hoof abcessed, his glucose was sky-high. I suspect that he had compensated IR the first year, and then last summer, decompensated. After the 1st month on 1 mg. Pergolide, his glucose was back to normal.
So it seems to me you are on the right track with soaking his hay. How much Pergolide are you giving him now? I know you are concerned about giving too much medication, but there are also real risks associated with too little.
Man, I feel for you with the weather you've been having, wrapping feet and soaking hay & all. I grew up in MO, it feels twice as cold there as the thermometer says it is!
Sending good thoughts for you and Sam.
Kathy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 4:22 pm:
Thanks Kathy I have Sam on 2ml of pergolide now.... or very close anyway, so I have more than doubled it.
I don't quite understand glucose and insulin together..that will be my next readings. I think the vet said since Sams glucose wasn't elevated also, it didn't indicate IR (as you know he is kind of strange so I always double check) He said it meant it was his CD causing it. I thought I read somewhere, will have to double check, that glucose goes up with CD and can be one of the tell tale signs of it. Vet said it was his tumor in his head doing it.
I hate to disagree with him again, but I wonder if it wasn't that hay with the preservative on it. That stuff is as green as the day it was cut and just looks rich. I know you can't tell by looking, but it does look RICH! They were getting that hay when Sam started this and pretty much free choice, Hanks neck grew on it I noticed... I should have known better
 I wasn't able to get to my "regular stemmy" hay because of the snow... the place I keep it at was "snowed in" for about 3 weeks.
Don't even ask how I am soaking hay in this weather! I am getting it done tho.
I am very curious to see what Dr. O. has to say about CD alone causing high insulin levels. I see I have alot of research ahead of me again.
I also hope Sam is able to pull out of this.. going to be a long haul one way or the other I'm afraid. If we don't go bankrupt buying shavings first.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 6:24 pm:
So much of what you say is ringing familiar bells in my head, Diane.
Very tough challenges.
Hope that we all have good outcomes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:33 pm:
I am very happy to report Sam looked better today He has become unglued and is now moving around his stall quite a bit. His personality was in full swing also... I hope this continues.
I have been opening the door to his stall when I clean it and he has had no desire to go out. The last few days I have been putting his boots on and making him go out and move a little, I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I have to follow my instincts sometimes.
Today I opened the gate and he was out it before I could get out of the way.. don't get me wrong he is still VERY VERY painful moving..BUT he is moving and looks a little less painful. The funny thing is he didn't have any bute this morning either. I have been giving him bute based on symptoms rather than 2 times a day. If he doesn't look painful and his feet aren't raising He$$ I don't give him any.
I also removed a couple more slivers off his heels, and rockered his toe a little, again I don't know if that is right but it does seem to relieve him a little.. and I am being beyond conservative. I can't thank you guys enough who taught me how to work on Hanks hoof, it is giving me the bravery to do this, and have an understanding of what needs to be done... just have to be VERY careful and slow, which gives me way more options over a farrier every 6 weeks.
Sam had what looked like bruising(blood) on his hoof wall at his heel, wish I would have had my camera.. Angie I did bevel also! This all scares me being such an amateur but so far so good.
SOOO today anyway Sam is giving me hope he may recover... albeit very slowly.
His diet consists of 10#'s of soaked grass ICE hay, 1 cup of timothy pellets twice a day and his pergolide. Bute as needed. I would like to find a good sugarless alfalaless vitamin supplement for him. I guess the human vit. Dr.O. suggests fits that bill! He still isn't drinking much which is a bit worrisome. I cleaned his tub good today and filled it again.. it wasn't dirty but who knows. I also offered him a different bucket but he didn't want any.
He is still going right for the other horses poop when he gets out of his stall, maybe self medicating, his stomach has stopped growling and the diarrhea is gone, so if he wants it he can have it
All in all a pretty good day for Sam
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:55 pm:
Glad for a better day for Sam.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 7:56 pm:
So glad he had a good day..and therefor, so did you. I hope it continues.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 9:51 pm:
Yes, very glad Sam had a better day.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 10:39 pm:
Good to hear. I know you'll keep being conservative, and trusting your instincts is good, you do know him best.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:48 pm:
Ah, good days are always a joy to hear!
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:15 am:
Diane....I looked thru a ton of literature I had in a file and found this for you: https://www.unshod.co.uk/aboutep.php
This fella is the equine podiatrist I was trying to think of for you last week. He has several articles on conditions that affect the horse's hooves, to include insulin resistance/high insulin. Although he is in the UK, he was very willing to answer a few questions that I had emailed him so, you may want to do the same after reading his articles.
Sam's insulin level was 400???? YIKES!!
I'm curious about the Bute you are giving..... Are you alternating off/on because he's been on it for a while? The routine I was to follow when Banner had a mild case 10 years ago was Bute morning and night for 5 days, re-evaluate and continue for 5 more days if there were still ANY sign of soreness. She did fine after only 5 days, then we tapered off for several more days before stopping completely.
Like with Motrin if I sprain an ankle or arm, the docs want the anti inflammatory for several days for the combined affect before tapering off. At any indication of pain, do not decrease until pain free for several days. It was never a situation of use only when increased pain, the idea was to get rid of all the pain first, then wean off....that's why I ask.
Has Sam had any access to pasture? The roughage formula here is 1% of BW but to allow pasture time to equal 1 pound per hour. For Ziggy that was 4 pounds of hay and X hours of grass (dependent upon growth status) to equal the rest of the 1%. If there was any further need for calories for weight control, it was done with cool calories from rice bran oil.....no corn oil, that's too hot. At no time could I give Ziggy 1% in hay plus pasture time, he blew up and it ignited his IR every time.
Good luck bringing that insulin level down.
PS: Do you have an area to plug in an electric tub to soak the hay in? I bought a bucket big enough for two haynets and they eat it before it turns icy once I hang them.
PS#2: The vasodilators we used here was to help open up the blood vessels leaving the foot to relieve pressure within the foot. Part of laminitis is the incoming vessels open but not the outgoing and that is part of the problem. When you open all of them, the inflammation comes down quicker.....or so the theory goes/went.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 7:57 am:
Patty, Sam has been on bute for about a month or some kind of nasid at pretty high doses. I would like to taper down if possible, playing that by ear more than anything.
I am not going to take anymore off his hoof for awhile.. I was VERY conservative, he has a fragile hoof, with pain yet... I just tweeked what might help him a little.
The insulin level was quite remarkable! 486 to be exact. I've read around a little and seems that CD alone can be responsible for this, but I am not 100% sure. Need Dr.O. to comment on that.
Sam has had no grass in quite awhile, besides my vet said winter grass is perfectly safe for him it is dormant...sigh
I don't think it is the CD alone that caused this, it had to be the green preserved hay or the black locusts(maybe they are full of sugar) or both.
I asked the vet about vasodilators and he said he hasn't had any success with it, but if I had to guess, I bet he hasn't tried them. He didn't seem like he knew much about it as far as founder.. at one point he said something about giving him cortisone!!! You see what I am up against and why I have to research and ask questions here all the time . He never even suggested soaking the hay
I have an electric muck bucket for Sams water. Right now I am soaking the hay for a couple hours, rinsing, pouring the water off. The hay freezes, when it's time to feed I run it under the hydrant to defrost it. It stays defrosted until he is done eating, it has been in the 20's mostly.
Buying his bedding, meds and other stuff is driving me to the horse poor house, but I will check out how much a heated bucket is. If I can afford it, I will get another, would make life a little easier anyway.
Hope he has a good day again...2 in a row would be encouraging anyway.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 8:53 am:
Anyone have an idea how to get Sam to drink??? It has to be because his hay is soaked.. that's when he stopped drinking..of course horses like to throw coincidence at us. I checked his electric muck bucket to make sure he wasn't getting a shock, I don't feel anything. I am going to let Hank in there later, he'll tell me! He loves to drink out of the muck bucket and dunk his head in it.
SOO I filled his feed bucket with water and put a little hay in there.. he picked the hay out, but did not drink
He has drank absolutely nothing in the last 36 hrs. he is pooping fine and there is pee in his stall.. tho not a lot. Dry hay would probably get him to drink, but he is improving so I don't want to quit soaking.. He is still "unglued from the ground" The DP's are absent more than present in his fronts, they remain in the backs, but are coming down.
I fed his hay and put his salt block right next to the water.. didn't work.
Dr.O I did read the article you suggested and am already doing all of the suggestions.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:15 am:
Patty thanks for the articles it did explain the insulin/ glucose well and was similar to what Kathy said.
The laminatic diet was interesting and sounded quite a bit like what I was getting at with my cresty neck and free choice mineral diet. I see he agrees with the sodium and potassium thing too that I was getting at with "cow grass tetany" I have been giving Sam the free choice minerals, he cleaned them up for a few days and has now leveled off. I only give him a certain amount because I don't want them to over due.
Funny I managed to keep them from foundering this summer on their "experimental pasture" but hay (I guess) threw him into a founder. Not Hank, but his crest did grow on that hay.....
Sam has more IR symptoms than Hank tho, plus I'm sure the CD doesn't help any.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:45 am:
Good luck with getting Sam to drink, Diane.
Perry had been drinking well but has suddenly stopped as well, though I haven't begun soaking his hay yet.
When he begins to get a worse belly ache he will play in the water but not drink it.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:06 am:
You're very welcome Diane.
I have to zoooom thru (tighter schedule than usual...what was I thinking when I booked that??) but I did want to mention that my experience with winter grass has been that the grass that grows in eastern Virginia is just as high in sugar as the rest of the year. The sugar is still in it when it dies off so I have to be very careful, especially if he eats more of it because of the cold weather. What has worked though is the winter grass that was left to mature (we didn't mow it) doesn't seem to set him off near as much...even in the cold. That tend to back up the theory about mature grass having less sugar than short stressed or growing grass....at least so far. When I tried the mowed field, he couldn't have any more of that than he can in the summer and the specials explained the sugar content as being the same even though it's dead.
Gotta go but good luck, I peek in when I can to see how he's doing.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:30 am:
Best wishes for Sam and you, Diane. That is all I can do. Am checking HA usually twice a day to see the updates.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 11:45 am:
Thanks Lilo moral support is very helpful too! Vicki, interesting that Perry quit drinking too. Sam was drinking VERY well until I started soaking his hay.. I don't know if that is coincidence or not.
I tried the Hank test, he went right for the water tub as predicted.. went to dunk his head and right before his head hit the water he snorted and looked sideways at it.. I couldn't coax him to drink out of it or dunk his head...which he does reliably 100% of the time.. HMMMMMM
I still had Sams feed bucket with water in it, so Hank went to that and dunked his head and drank. Now I'm not sure if the bucket is throwing a small charge I can't feel or not!
Where I used to rent the auto water started throwing a small electric current.. I couldn't feel it, but Hank told me all about it. He pawed the waterer.. tried to drink by lapping like a dog, threw a hissy fit, I thought something was wrong with him , I had the vet out because I thought he was colicking or choking. Finally I offered him a bucket of water and he lapped at it, then finally started drinking... he told me it was the waterer and it WAS. The others (including Sam) just wouldn't drink. The cats quit drinking out of it too..
Once we got it fixed they were still leary of drinking for quite awhile. Funny how I could feel nothing and they could. Sam lapped a little at the bucket I offered him. HMMMMMMM
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Member:
ptownevt
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 2:57 pm:
If you wear boots with rubber soles that would keep you from feeling the shock. My tank heater was shorting and giving off a shock a couple of years ago. My guy wouldn't drink out of it even after it was fixed. I had to get a new water tub.
Pam
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 6:56 pm:
Sam confuses the heck out of me. I decided today I was going to make his stall a little bigger. since he has come unglued from the ground he can move around a little more in there.
As always I scooted Hank and Flash out closed the gates, threw a little hay in the other side of the lean- to. Sam willingly left his pen moving in his slow fashion got to his soaked hay and started eating. I was busy FIGHTING with the gates and wasn't paying much attention. WELL I forgot to close one gate going out of the lean-to/paddock area and Sam had made his way out.
I decided to watch him a bit and see how it went. He went at his turtle pace a few steps and stopped to eat his daily snack of horse poop. GOOD I can finish getting the gates moved (which is no easy chore by yourself)
This gate moving chore took me a good half an hour and a lot of cussing I kept an eye on Sam more so because I didn't want Hank picking on him. I glanced up once and he was making his way towards the other horses to join them.. I was flabbergasted about how well he was moving(soft snow), he actually looked normal. So I thought I would just leave him there to socialize (Hank was behaving after I growled at him once). Sam went and rolled vigorously in the snow.back and forth on both sides , he started sliding down the hill a bit towards the electric fence from rolling so much (he really enjoyed himself). He realized he was rolling himself towards the fence and JUMPED up shook himself off and walked quite well away from it.
I left him out there until it was time to feed, about half an hour, went to put him away first before I fed and he actually tried to get away from me. Caught him up and walked him back, there is a small piece of hard ground we had to cross and he was very slow on that. He didn't stop once when I was taking him in... usually we have to stop and rest every 2-3 steps.
Yes Sam is still very sore especially on any type of hard ground, but this movement(and socializing) even tho not much seems to be helping him. I hadn't put his boots on because I didn't plan on letting him out.. the side gate foiled me. I guess the bright side is a few days ago he could have cared less if a gate was open... he wasn't moving anywhere.
I did buy a new 5 gal heated bucket... still hasn't touched his water. He does lick a little snow with his poop meals.
His diarrhea was back last night and this morning quite bad, his tail is all covered again.. I gave him bute last night for no reason other than I felt I should.
He did not get any this morning and I didn't give him any tonight... hopefully his diarrhea stays away and he isn't terribly sore..... so he can get off of it for awhile.
So I guess another good day for Sam... we'll see what tomorrow brings with no bute
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:25 pm:
So happy that Sam is feeling better presently, Diane.
The socializing is important for their overall physical and mental condition.
Hope that Sam is on the road to stabilization.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 11:58 pm:
Last Spring I had two horses present with severe colic symptoms at the same time--almost to the minute! My vet suspected they weren't drinking enough and loaned me a voltage meter (I think--something like that) that would detect electricity below what a human could detect. Apparently horses are much more sensitive to electricity than we are. Mine were fine btw and the colics were a result of black locust chips in the dry lot!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:11 am:
Waiting for daylight, worried Sam got sore(er) from his escape and I didn't bute him. Hope I didn't make him worse allowing him to remain out for a little bit, even tho the ground was quite soft with the fluffy snow. That diarrhea has got to go, especially since he isn't drinking.
If he hasn't drank I am at a loss what to do. Without being able to use something sugary to bribe him or dry hay. I will try adding more water to his pellets if he hasn't drank and see if that will work.
Tossed and turned and finally got up very early...should have called Vicki Z and kept her company!
Even tho we have warmed up to "normal" cold it is still miserable to be outside. I can't wait for spring to get here!!!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:18 am:
Diane,
I know Sam has you worried about his water intake, but the fact that you are soaking his hay may have a lot to do with the amount he is drinking.If you are also giving him water in his feed that would also decrease the amount he is drinking. Also, if he has access to any snow that may cut it down a bit more.
I used to get worried about my own horses not drinking enough especially in the winter( I had not electric to plug my heaters into), so I would make mushy mashes with a ton of water which they slobbered up, the water consumption went down from the water buckets. In fact some mornings they didn't drink anything, but I knew they were ok, they were pooping and peeing normally and I used the pinch test to make sure they were not dehydrated.
I would not stop watering his hay or watering down his feed, at least you know he is getting that.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:46 am:
Thanks Rachelle, You are right, actually they usually drink less in the summer because of the moisture in the grass (If they are getting any)
He did drink about 2 gallons last night, so along with his soaked hay and watered down pellets I guess that is adequate.
His diarrhea was gone, so I do wonder if it isn't the bute causing this. I couldn't tell if he was sorer for sure, he is always stiff when he gets up when I go out. I will check after he gets done eating and more mobile. His pulses were about the same, and no heat. I would love to get him off nasids for awhile anyway, It would seem his diarrhea does coincide with bute administration.
I suppose I could try the Equiox again, but he had diarrhea when on that also
I guess all I can do is play it by ear and hope he doesn't start getting worse without the nasids
Patience again
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 10:00 am:
I hope things are improving now and continue to do so for Sam.
I also worry about water consumption this time of year. I swear the water level don't move for days, then suddenly it goes down by a few inches. Maybe like us, some days they don't drink much, other days can't get enough?
I notice they always drink more after I clean the tank. It don't LOOK dirty to me right now, but with this er, um, heat wave we are having (mid 30's today)I am going to see if I can dump it and clean it good.
Nine weeks til spring! According to the calendar anyhow, lol! Probably double that for me,
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 11:13 am:
Never underestimate the healing powers of a "herd"
I was just out trying to get some of the frozen poop up. Hank and Flash were hanging out by Sams gates. Sam was standing there looking kind of stupid. Flash moved closer and stuck her head through the gates, Sam moved closer and perked up a little. Flash was pawing the gates because she misses him and wants in... sigh.
I decided since the stall is bigger to let her in with him. She went right to his water bucket and started playing in it.. Sam got interested walked over pushed her head out of the way, they bickered back and forth over the water and SAM gulped the whole thing down so she couldn't have it! LOL. Even tho Hank and Flash are close, I think Sam has a little "herd depression" going on. He looked so much perkier and happy with Flash in there (who is completely harmless) so I left her in there! I was just contemplating giving him bute because he looked so weird I figured it was pain.. nope he is lonely I think.
Hank is now not happy so I gave him a little hay to get over it and am going to work on his hooves a little.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:51 pm:
Diane, Kathy has it right and assuming you understood your veterinarian correctly, he has it wrong.
Insulin rises in response to hyperglycemia so as to lower the glucose. High insulin in the face of normal glucose is considered a compensated state of insulin resistance. Once the high levels of insulin can no longer keep the glucose normal the horse becomes hypoglycemic and hyperinsulinemic as is considered uncompensated IR.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 1:21 pm:
So IOW it is his IR probably causing the founder??? AND it is possible to get it down??
Dr.O the vet talked to me for 10 mins. he left me with a bad feeling. He DID say it was Sams Cushings Disease causing this and basically there wasn't much hope except to keep him comfortable as I can. There was nothing to be done about it. He said to double his nasids and just keep him comfortable period.
I told him I was soaking his hay and eliminating as much NSC's as possible... he said that that was all fine, but it wouldn't help... It was the "tumor in his head" doing it.... that's a quote or very close anyway. I felt he had no hope for Sam at all... just supportive care until I can "dig a hole"
I understand that CD and IR is and can be tied together, Sam's CD as far as other symptoms are gone (other than his hair)
Now I got to go read more
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:13 pm:
This is how Sam stands most of the day, weird for a foundering horse, he looks so relaxed... he had no bute for 36 hrs. in this pic. His pulses were up without the bute so I did give him some.. I hope that is right
You can see Hank and Flash stay close, I think that is what keeps him semi-sane.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:50 pm:
Perry's stance looks similar much of the time, Diane.
I don't understand how your Vet can take that attitude, though I do agree that we need to keep our horses comfortable.
Perry was so ticked off tonight about his starvation diet that he dug his stall up big time.
It is not possible to cut a horse back on rations overnight and not expect consequences any more than we can expect cigarette smoking addicts to quit smoking overnight.
We have to listen to what we are told to do, but moderate our actions according to what our gut tells us, and just do the best that we can while keeping the horses comfortable and sane.
At least, that is my personal opinion.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 9:40 pm:
AHH Vicki the good ole starvation diet. I have been weighing Sam's hay for the day throw it in a tub to soak. He gets a small portion in the morning, a small portion mid morning, a small portion mid day and I try to save the biggest portion for night.
When Hank went on his diet my vet said to give him one leaf in the AM and PM. I'm sorry but that wasn't enough. I wasn't soaking Hanks hay.
Hank was probably getting 2.5% of his BWT. before his Hanks weight watchers diet. I cut him back to 1% of what his BWT should be(10#'s). Once his weight started coming off and his founder stabalized he went back to 1.5%(12-14#'s) of what his BWT should be and it kept coming off just slower, once he was stabalized it wasn't as necessary to get the pounds off so quickly. This was pretty crapppy hay tho and was perfect for his diet. Wish I had some more of it!!! It wasn't dusty or moldy.. just brown and very over ripe. I actually found he could eat that hay all day and still loose weight, but at least kept him busy.
They do start to adjust to the smaller portions, it takes awhile and much will power on your end. A constant struggle. I've started cutting Hank back now that the weather is "normal" he has had a few hissy fits of pawing, begging, throwing his head about, but has now accepted this is the way it is. It's in his best interest I keep telling myself! and it is.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:51 am:
Diane, there is no way to rule out a combination of factors we have already discussed in other discussions. This includes your horse's Cushings Disease. If your veterinarian feels increasing the pergolide could help bring this back into line it would be worth a try as I have suggested may help way back in the beginning when you lowered the dose. But I understand you feel you have seen toxic reactions from higher doses. It is balancing these two concerns which should lead to a decision.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:25 am:
Dr.O I didn't lower his dose, I brought it back to what he was getting, I am now splitting the dose and he is getting close to 2ml... up from .65 ml. so it is more than doubled now for well over a week, close to 2 I think.
He said to double his Nasids, at this point it seems his diarrhea is coinciding with Nasid use. Tho this morning he didn't have any so it could be the pergolide, hard to tell.
Sam is unglued from the ground and moves around pretty well on soft ground, so there is improvement in attitude and lameness.
IOW he said Sam probably wasn't going to recover so don't worry about over medicating... just keep him comfortable.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:52 am:
I am not too impressed with your vet's statement he won't recover. What specifically does he feel Sam won't recover from? Sam has a few different issues going on, each requiring a different approach it seems.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 11:06 am:
He don't think he will recover from this founder, I guess because he thinks his CD won't allow for it.
I walked around half sick all day after listening to him. Then I decided... I wouldn't listen to him and Sam IS going to pull out of this. Time will tell as always. One thing I am not good at is giving up hope and throwing in the towel!
If Sam was lying down all the time moaning in pain it would be different, he seems perfectly comfortable in his "stall" at this point anyway.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 11:48 am:
Sam, like my mare Sahira, may not recover from the founder in the sense that he may always be more susceptable to it and you'll always have to stay on top of his CD issues; he'll never be like he once was. But heck, I'll never recover from my arthritis, I have to watch my diet also and I'm a long way from giving up on life. I suspect Sam feels the same way! Like you say, if Sam were in obvious pain, not able to eat, etc. that's one thing, but otherwise you're vet's statement is rediculus imo. However, if he is like some of the vets in our area, they are used to people not wanting to spend time and money on a horse that will never be sound and usable again. Maybe that's where he is coming from.
My mare stands much like Sam. The only way you'd know she had a problem is when she puts weight on her left front foot she limps.
Hang in there Diane! You're doing a good job and you know your horses. Sam has improved; you know it will be back and forth and not an overnight thing. I think eventually you'll figure out how to stablize him and make him comfortable. Like the others, I wouldn't be too concerned about his water intake as long as he doesn't show signs of dehydration and is eating the soaked hay. How much he needs will depend on the humidity, dryness of his feed, and also how much he's moving around. If he's not exerting as much energy he's not going to need as much water as when he's moving around all the time. If he develops really runny manure and is still not drinking I'd be more concerned about dehydration and also electrolite imbalance.
Sahira had a couple of rougher days a few days ago and is back to doing pretty good again. This pattern imo is normal, so don't get too discouraged.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 12:39 pm:
Diane, I have little experience with CD and laminitis (knock on wood), but I think your attitude is right on. You KNOW when Sam is uncomfortable and when he's not. You have enough experience to KNOW when your horse is suffering. From all the posts, Sam seems uncomfortable but still has that spark in him. You're doing everything possible to help him and I congratulate you on your efforts. Unless my horse was suffering, I'd do the exact same thing.
To both Diane and Sara - I hope that both horses bounce back soon so that you can take a sigh of relief and happily watch them grazing (on their modified diets, that is) with contentment come spring!
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 2:06 pm:
I hope I don't cause offense, Diane, but I find your posts very confusing. What "tumor" are you referring to? And why were you feeding rich hay free-choice to these horses that you've told us many many times cannot tolerate it?
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Member:
shirl
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 2:27 pm:
Hi Sharon,
I'm not Diane but I will explain that the "tumor" she was referring to what causes Cushings. It's in the Pituatary (sp) Gland I believe and gives off too much hormone, becomes enlarged, etc. Pergolide helps the situation.
Shirley
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 2:55 pm:
Thanks, Shirley. I see that Diane's referring to the tumor that causes Cushings, rather than an additional health issue. Thanks for clarifying!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 3:04 pm:
Diane, from the pic you posted above Sam does look like he's standing just a bit parked out in front to me (like a normal founder) though it might be the angle.
Regardless as others have said you know your horses best. You're the one who is there looking at them every day and you can tell how they're feeling. Sam might always have issues to deal with but that is no reason to give up on him!
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 3:10 pm:
Hi Diane, I had a thought that popped into my head this morning and I wanted to share it with you.
In people with Type II Diabetes, one typically sees insulin resistance and high blood glucose. If you measure insulin and glucose levels during a time of stress, say from illness or infection, you will see glucose and insulin levels much higher than their "normal" or compensated range.
Now I know that Cushings in horses is a little different than people with DM II, but it seems to me that possibly the insulin level that you are seeing with Sam represents an exceptionally high value for him due to the stress of the black locust, pain, and laminitis. So put in that context, I would be hopeful that its possible that his insulin levels will come down to a less alarming level once he recovers from this episode of stress.
You will of course, always have to manage his feet and his Cushings very carefully, but I'm hopeful that he can and will do better. Hang in there!
Dr. O, in people insulin levels are interpreted according to whether the patient is fasting or fed (they are much higher if the patient has eaten) Is their a similar rule for interpreting insulin levels in horses? Was Sam fasting when his blood was drawn?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 3:39 pm:
Diane, that ol' boy is a long ways from throwing in the towel! It wouldn't be the first time your vet was wrong!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 5:16 pm:
Thanks I hope Sam does do OK, we are far from out of the woods, but I do believe he is stabilized, he is not getting worse, with a tiny tiny bit of improvement.. his front pulses were gone today, but they seem to come and go.. his back ones stay elevated... but they were much quieter..
Sharon I do take a bit of offense when I probably shouldn't, I have NO idea what caused this. It could have been many things or nothing. Wish I did know for sure.
I don't know if their hay was rich.. I said it LOOKED rich but that doesn't mean anything, it was pure grass hay with a preservative on it.
They were getting pretty much free choice hay because with the windchill it was MINUS 30 to MINUS 50 degrees for weeks on end, I do this every year when it gets that extreme for long periods. Sam has never had a problem with it nor has Hank... I cut them back when it warms up above zero. They were on round bales last year with no problems free feeding.
Sam was not fat I could feel his ribs very easily,
My vet calls it the "tumor in his head" which means he has Cushings Disease... and he does, plus insulin resistance, which makes life with him unpredictable and a challenge. We have managed for over 7 years without any major problems or meds so I think I have done pretty well.
Enough defending myself.. it may well have been my fault.. something I'll never know for sure.
Jo Ann I wondered about that too. When I was reading about the causes of high insulin... other than the obvious. I did read that nerves can make the reading higher.
Sam was a nervous wreck when the vet was here, he pooped 5 times in 15 mins.(really). He has a great fear of men because of his hard beginnings in life.
As far as food I'm not sure, but yes he ate about 3 hrs. before the vet came.
I stopped and got his blood test results and am going to post them to see if Dr.O sees anything odd.
I guess I'll have to start another thread, this one is getting long loading again
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 5:43 pm:
Thanks for humoring me, Diane. I guess I spoke out of frustration because, like most on this board, I really want to help...but can't. I wish you the best in getting a handle on these issues.
BTW, Sam is really CUTE. He reminds me of my super fuzzy bay mustang gelding.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 6:06 pm:
Just from the information on Sam's degree of lameness I disagree with your veterinarian's assessment which suggest to me Sam should recover with good care and patience. Good care includes not being allowed out of the stall at his time as described in the articles.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:00 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. I hope he comes out of it! I will keep him in that stall until he agrees to walk right, or I end up in the funny farm... which ever comes first
Thanks
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