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Discussion on Laminitis -- Perry's founder, Part 2
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 6:20 pm:
This continues the prior postings, entitled "Laminitis," last updated January 15.
Perry did not do well off the Bute (NSAID) drugs. His feet have flared up again. He has bounding pulses in both front feet. My veterinarian says that I must resume administering the Bute, 1 gram, twice daily for now, in addition to the other drugs that improve the circulation to the feet.
We are going to have to find ways to calm his stomach down. If necessary, my Vet will come give Cimetidine injections over the weekend but by early next week we need a better, longer term plan for Perry's stomach.
It is going to be necessary for me to continue to check on and observe Perry a couple of times during the nighttime hours.
I confess that I am discouraged, depressed, and disappointed, but I've been through long courses of trouble with horses before and came out well, so just have to try to keep with it.
Perhaps I will get used to this schedule of getting up every 3 - 4 hours.
I asked my Vet if he thought insulin resistance might be part of the problem and he said that looking at the fat deposits, although Perry has had worse fat in his mane area in the past, the fat pads in the tail area mean he is really overweight, and perhaps insulin resistant.
He wants me to take a lot of weight off Perry and showed me how much coastal hay I am to feed twice daily. The amount is a small flake twice daily. Perry is probably used to a half to 3/4 of a bale daily.
I am concerned that his empty belly is going to make the ulcers worse.
I asked about whether there was an area of the gut where sounds diagnosed NSAID irritation and he did not believe there was a specific location and explained the different locations where a horse may get ulcers.
My Vet said that he is sorry, but this condition is not going to go away quickly.
I also expressed concern because our temperatures are really warming up here now, that the boots trap heat. Perry's feet are still good and hard and he said that little bit of extra heat was not significant and that icing legs would do no good at this point in time.
He also believes that the boots, in addition to the deep shavings, are helpful because they raise the (heel) angles.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:02 pm:
Boy Vicki you are on a roller coaster ride too . It's funny how different vets have different opinions. When Hank was on bute forever when he foundered my vet said he would rather treat an ulcer than an exposed coffin bone.. gotta love him . Hank never did get an ulcer. He had the grumpy tummy ect.
I tried leaving Sam padded in his stall and he seemed more comfortable without them, he can stand with his heels raised in the bedding if it's more comfortable I figure. That's why I asked Dr.O. about it in Sam's thread.
There definitely are different thoughts on whether the heels should be raised or not, and I think the recent train of thought is not... maybe it depends. Physically if there is rotation present it would point the coffin bone down further. I guess the idea of raising the heels is to take the pull from the DDFT off the coffin bone.
I THINK the newest research shows that lowering the heel may be helpful in bringing the CB into a more normal position.... hopefully Dr.O. will comment on this. As always you must follow your vets advice, I just do my own research because of a small lack of faith in my vet!
Hope things go well tonight. I know I am wore out with Sam (physically and mentally) and I don't have to get up at night and check him!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 8:48 pm:
Hear you, Diane, about being worn out.
I thought that lowering the heel was the old way of doing things.
In any case, you are correct that the thinking of raising the heel is to relieve the pressure on the DDFT, which connects to the coffin bone, which when stressed, lets go, allowing the sinking.
It seems to depend upon the amount of rotation.
If you read Dr. O's article on laminitis, Dr. Reddin (think that is who it is) addresses the raising of the heel 12 - 15 degrees, if I recall correctly, but the way my brain is working these days, I cannot be held responsible for anything much.
I too am concerned about whether the boots are appropriate, and that is why I questioned my Vet.
I will soon take this question up with my farrier.
All I can say is that my Vet has been a pretty good (in fact, brilliant) diagnostition for me and others
Equine podiatrists, in general, have better knowledge in this regard.
My (natural, podiatry-based)farrier, when needed, puts a backward shoe onto a foundering foot, which in effect, raises the angle.
Whatever the right answers are, this is a real challenge, as you well know.
Having been through what I've been through this week, your Vet is correct about it being better to treat an ulcer than an exposed coffin bone.
My farrier has taken horses home (NOT his customers) who were slated to be put down due to the coffin bone falling through, but he was able to fix them including putting horses back into showing or a mare into having a foal. So even with extreme circumstances, things can be turned around sometimes.
All best!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 9:07 pm:
The vet I see in Las Vegas whose a "foot and leg" guy, also says to raise the heel. He also stresses the importance of lateral balance as well. He says you often have to raise the heel in increments; depends on the degree of rotation, length of toe, height of heel, etc. I feel that the xrays he took (digital) have been very helpful with Sahira. So glad you have a good vet, Vickie. It is SO HARD without one that is "up" on this stuff. We lost one gelding I'm sure due to lack of then vet's expertise and following his advice blindly.
I am SO glad I'm not having to get up every few hrs. Did that for years when foaling; it's so nice to just sleep. I hope you are either near the barn or have a nice warm tack room to sleep in so you aren't having to trudge through the cold several time each night!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 9:52 pm:
HMMMM very interesting, how much rotation does Sahira have.
In the article here it says raising the heels has helped in severe, unresponsive founder. I know I have read pros and cons of both,of which both make sense.
If you raise the heels you would take the pressure off of the DDFT, but what then is left holding the CB in place... put simply. Raising the heels would point the CB down further and put more pressure at the toe. I know you don't want to lower the heels dramatically or quickly, but want to try to bring the CB into a more "natural angle"
I just re-read through the de-rotation article ( I should know it by heart after Hank) and it seems to depend on the amount of rotation, but it appears it isn't as simple as raising the heels either. It is trying to get the CB in a more natural angle... sigh it all gives me a headache. At least you guys have vets up on this stuff, I depend alot on researching myself...and HA.
Vicki, I think a reverse shoe is used to keep pressure off the toe, not to raise the heel( I think)
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:42 pm:
Oh Vicki, so sorry to read your latest post. This kind of care is so draining, physically and emotionally. Not to mention worrying about the horse's comfort, well-being and prognosis (and that of one's pocketbook). It sound as if you have good vet and farrier support and that is a huge plus to have on your side.
Have you considered hooking up an internet camera in your barn? We did this, just out of curiosity to see if we could monitor the horses. We had purchased the camera originally for the house so that we could monitor a sick kitty - the lengths we go to for our animals, I swear! Only problem with the barn was there wasn't enough light to be able to see any details, even with the barn lights on. I'm sure a better system would have remedied that, but we didn't go there since we didn't have a horse on close watch.
I find the raising heels vs lowering heels confusing too. Is the idea is to raise the heels during acute founder to prevent the pull of the DDFT on the coffin bone while the lamina are inflamed and in danger of tearing, and then gradually lower the heel once the inflammatory phase has passed and the lamina have healed to bring the coffin bone ground parallel?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 15, 2010 - 11:57 pm:
It's been 10 or 11 years since I've had an acute founder, but at that time (after the initial onset) we did use wedge pads to raise the heels, but first the heels were trimmed back to the widest part of the frog which kind of seems like lowering them, but when the pad and shoe were applied, at the vets with radiographs to guide us, it did bring the coffin bone into better alignment. As I recall, this is in Dr. O's article--trimming the heels then applying the wedge pad. I don't think if that happened to me today that I would use shoes. Just the thought of nailing on a shoe makes me edgy now. I'd be going with the styrofoam and/or boots now. A shoe on backwards is an old remedy and all I can see it doing is taking pressure off the toe area which would help if the toes were too long to begin with. It would totally immobilize the back of the foot which needs to be able to expand and contract to maintain good blood flow and a healthy frog and digital cushion which is necessary for future soundness. Unless, no nails were used toward the rear (actual front) of the shoe??
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:41 am:
With regard to raising or lowering heels, I believe that the lowering to align the coffin bone to be on a level with the ground is to come only after the laminitis flare up has totally stabilized and the rotation has ceased happening.
Here are a couple of paragraphs copied from the Karen E.N. Hayes, D.V.M., M.S. book, "Help Your Horse Live a Good Long Life" (2005):
"Thirty years ago, the typical "sawhorse stance" of the laminitic horse, with front legs extended forward, was believed to be evidence that the horse was trying to take painful weight off his toes. This seemed to be confirmed by the fact that he reacted to hoof testers applied to the toe area. Veterinarians responded, with all good intentions, by lowering the horses' heels with a rasp, so they could bear more weight on their heels and less on those painful toes. It was the worst thing we could have done."
(paragraph describing foot mechanics left out here, in the interest of space and time)
"The DDF (deep digital flexor) tendon at the back of his leg normally attaches tautly to the back of the coffin bone, and its tug there will accelerate the ripping process. What we did in the past -- rasping down the horses' heels in an attempt to relieve weight-bearing on their toes -- tightened the DDF tendon and made things much worse. In retrospect, laminitis victims didn't stand with their front feet extended ahead of them in order to take weight off their toes; they stood that way in order to put some slack in their DDF tendons."
Dr. Hayes suggests reviewing the following site: www.hopeforsoundness.com
I have not studied it as of yet but plan to do so as soon as I can find the time.
Thanks for the very excellent information Sara.
My tack room is not heated, so not suitable for very cold nights. I should have turned the gas heat on in my horse trailer that has living quarters during the worst of the cold watch.
Temperatures have warmed here now. I've been dressing and undressing and trudging up and down the hill to my barn every trip so far. If it becomes necessary to check more often than every 3 1/2 hours, I will plan to rest in my camper trailer, which is located fairly close to the barn.
Jo Ann, that is a good idea about the camera. It had crossed my mind that it would be great to have something like this to watch over my sick horse stall. I have no idea what it would take to do this but intend to find out.
Julie, you make some good points about shoes. When my farrier is forced to apply them he uses fewer nails than is usually done. He did not apply shoes at all to my friend's horse who had the grain overload founder. I guess that I don't totally understand the idea of the reversed shoe but probably it is used in cases where it seems that extra stability is needed.
Thanks, Diane -- for all the information about IR conditions. I reviewed this condition in the previously mentioned book and intend to begin soaking my hay as you have been doing.
Written in haste -- off to the barn to check Perry again.
I can tell that the Bute is giving him a little bit more digestive discomfort already.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:58 am:
I know that a horse will often try and raise their own heels; they will stand it deep sand or shavings in a manner which elevates their heels and points their toes down when given the chance.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:01 am:
I'm sorry to hear that Perry is not improving as hoped, Vicki. Is there anyone that can give you a break for at least one night so that you can regain your energy, physically and mentally?
Keeping my fingers crossed....
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:22 am:
Since Sam is not booted or padded in his stall I can see what his preference is as far as stance. He does stand with his heels elevated sometimes... going from when I see him I'd say 20% of the time, 20% of the time he is completely weighting his heels in the "stance" The other 60% is spent standing pretty normal with a back leg cocked.
There are a lot of theories that abound on this, and following your vets advice is always best. I do like to experiment with what makes Sam most comfortable...since my vet made no suggestions as far as that.
I did try raising his heels with the styrofoam, which seemed to make him uncomfortable. Letting him choose in the deep bedding seems to be the best choice for him.... they are all so different.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 10:31 am:
Vicky - just want to add my well wishes. Hoping the best for all of you battling laminitis under difficult circumstances.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 11:05 am:
Thanks for adding your good wishes, Fran and Lilo.
I'm afraid that I am the only available caregiver presently, though I am considering hiring a neighbor to watch after Perry during the day on Tuesday and part of Wednesday, if she is not scheduled to have to go into work those days. I need to be at very important county meetings those days, but perhaps my functioning will be so poor that I won't be able to go. This may be the case if I don't manage to get some more rest or find enough time to adequately prepare myself to speak at the meeting anyway.
Last night I explained to my husband about why I have been on the computer when I could be resting or doing something else. I told him that either I have been doing research, or on the HA site where good advice and a good exchange of ideas is available.
I also told him how much HA and the support of you all helped me when I was struggling to keep Lance alive in late August through November, 2008. He appreciated this and fortunately understands how challenging it is to doctor a horse with a problem that drags on like this.
I have heard the professionals (Vets and farriers) say how very difficult it is to properly execute, in a sustained fashion, the heel raising with styrofoam or wood, Diane.
Dr. Hayes suggests doing it with wood before even thinking about moving a laminitic horse from pasture into the barn.
Perry did drink about a gallon and a half of water finally, late this morning.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:04 pm:
All,
I can almost understand the theory around putting a reverse shoe on a foundered/foundering horse.
It would support and raise the heels while at the same time picking the rest of the horses hoof off the ground. The open toe lets the horse break over at a spot much further back than what would normally happen in a regular non reversed shoe.
If I was dealing with a foundered horse, I would not nail on any shoe. Instead, I would use a reversed Sigafoos shoe the same way. The Sigafoos shoe is glued onto the outside wall and it's pad is made so there is absolutely no sole pressure any where on a tender sole.
www.soundhorse.com
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:25 pm:
While I have seen many many founders through the years... other than mine, all I can say it really just depends . I have seen a reverse shoe (never tried this personally) make the pony so much worse almost immediately that I decided that was one thing I wouldn't ever try. I have seen them work too. I have seen the styrofoam when placed appropriately work miracles... not with all tho. I have seen wedges work and also have seen them create a catastrophe. Heartbars I have never been a fan of for many reasons. Hank did wonderful with a routed out wide web shoe with equipak. Not so all horses.
Each founder and the amount of rotation is individual, farrier skill is important along with x-rays... especially when trimming and or shoeing commences.
I think sharing our ideas and or experiences helps us form opinons and gives us some options if what we are doing isn't working (which is possible even with the best farrier and vet) horses don't ever play by the rules!!!
Getting to the root of the cause, and eliminating it is just as important IMHO, because until the trigger is gone no amount of trimming, shoeing, meds is going to help in the long run.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:31 pm:
Good advice, Rachelle.
I tried to scan and post Sahira's x-rays from when she first started treatement,done by our local vet, but had no luck. I'll call the clinic on Monday had ask that they email them to me; since their x-rays are digital, they're able to do that. I don't know the amount of her rotation, but it was significant with also very thin soles.
Vickie, what the specialist in Las Vegas did for Sahira was a several step process; started in styrofoam pads that had a "handmade" wedge shape; then a rim pad with soft gel squirted into the sole area, covered by a thin full pad with a glued on toe pad, and a glued on shoe; This series of treatments really helped for a long time. Then, with this most recent bout she hasn't responded well to the above regime and is now back in the Soft Ride boots with really soft pads. She did fine in this arangement for a while but now is sore again, so today we are taking down the height on the frog part of the boot pads to see how she responds to that. I think as Diane said, each case is different, even on the same horse.
btw-you can get barn/premise monitors for about $300 that are pretty good. I know they have them at Fryes, if you have one near you, also through some of the tack catalogs and maybe Best Buy. You can get them online also. When foaling they are wonderful. You can get them wireless, or with a line you have to run from point to point.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:35 pm:
Thanks very much, Rachelle,
I am going to send this site to my farrier, and also the one that I posted earlier, which has some interesting products for laminitis (styrofoam pads, special shoes, even clogs for horses whose coffin bone has rotated through the sole), look under "new products" in the blue lower rectangle and click on "lameness treatment products."
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:40 pm:
Diane, you are right on about eliminating "the trigger."
And also that every case is as individual as the horse is.
Sara, thanks so very much for all of this fabulous information.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 12:56 pm:
VickiZ, Our mare, Libby,the one that had such trauma, surgery etc. then foundered on her "good" foot (there are many posts about her ordeal on HA) she is wearing one of those clogs. It has litereally been a life saver for her. Two reasons they are great are that they aren't nailed on and the amount of elevation in the heel can go from level to quite steep by just unscrewing the "rails" and screwing another type back in. She has been wearing a clog on her one foot for almost 2 yrs. now. It's the only way I can keep her sound enough to function pain free.
Regarding cause: there lies "the rub." We can weed out the obvious and the probable and the possible, but there are times when we will never know the real cause of onset. Not only have I come to believe this, but so have several very good vets I've worked with. Not saying there is no cause, but that there are so many, with so many variables, you may never figure it out. And then, you have to figure out if laminitis/founder is a symptom or a cause of other problems.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 1:06 pm:
Sara you are quite right about that "rub" there can be many causes and whether the chicken or the egg came first is a hard call sometimes.
From researching around tho it would appear there are usually 3 main causes to at least look into.
EMS/Insulin resistance or sugar overload
Cushings disease
mechanical/ or road founder.
Most will fall into those categories. I am glad I had Sams insulin tested, I suspected it to be high, but not that high... here in lies his problem I would guess. How to get it under control is another thing but at least now I know the cause and can try anyway.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 5:10 pm:
True, Diane; and sometimes it's a combination of the above. Sometimes, it's a result of fever or stress. The vet down in Las Vegas says that he has no idea what caused his wife's mare to founder, and that he's seen horses with a fever of 101, no other symptoms, that founder. The first time Sahira had laminitis and foundered was when she had purpura hemorrhagica. I still am not sure what caused it; we suspect hoary allysium, but am not sure. Now she is very susceptable to founder it seems like every time the wind blows the wrong way her feet start getting sore.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 5:36 pm:
Sara,
By any chance was Sahira or any of your other horses vaccinated for strangles before she had her purpura episode.
I ask because when my mare was a two year old she was out with a group of other older horses, one of which I had just vaccinated for strangles. Very shortly after, my mare came down with what I now know was Purpura Hemorrhagia in her back legs. At the time the vet just chalked it up to some unnamed virus he could not identify. It really had me worried because it came on so suddenly and took quite some time to go away. I'd never seen anything like it. It was only after reading about it on HA that I finally put two and two together. Luckily, she did get better and went on to race.
Rachelle
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 6:47 pm:
Not within several weeks of her coming down with it if I remember right. I was out of town for a few days showing. I went to bring in horses the evening I got home and three of them could barely walk their legs were so swollen. The girl that was supposidly watching the horses never noticed; just thought they were fine out in the field. This mare and a gelding that we lost last year (founder) were the sickest and it took forever to get their legs healed up...constant doctoring as you know. Both this mare and the gelding foundered, the other mare didn't. The two that did just became so prone to founder and it seemed each case was worse than the one before. Our vet had no idea of the cause, but I found some weed in the back of the field that looked like hoary alysium and took it in to him and asked if it could be the cause; he said it was likely. Why it didn't affect the other horses in the field, I have no idea. Maybe because there wasn't much out there and there was plenty of good grass mix.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 7:25 pm:
Sara,
Isn't it weird how the strangest stuff happens when we are not there. It's like the horses are challenging us not to leave them and the know when we are gone.
My mares Purpura happened when I went to a research seminar in New York. The first two days, I came home, checked them and tucked them in. The third day, I stayed with my mother-in-law and came home the next day at 2pm. I checked them at 2 pm and 6 hours later, her legs looked like elephant legs. Its like she planned it in her little wicked brain. I can hear her thinking now 'I'll just punish my mother because she left me alone for a whole 24 hours and really didn't pay much attention to me for the last 3 days, I'll show her' and you know what she did. I haven't left my horses alone for 3 years, I even sent my husband to Vegas by himself last April, so I didn't have to worry about the animals.
She didn't founder, but maybe that purpura is the reason she's so flaky with her legs behind.
Live and Learn
Rachelle
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 - 9:18 pm:
WOW -- You ladies are giving me so much to think about.
Perry had his rear legs blow up really big one summer, several days post-vaccinations.
He has had various foot and leg-related maladies over the years and has been subject to rear leg swelling a few times, and last year experienced the cellulitis.
Other founder causes that are not too uncommon -- grain overload, but guess that is the same as or similar to Diane's listed sugar overload.
Also, injury somewhere in the body or in another leg or hoof (as Barbaro had). I still suspect this may be related to Perry's recent founder. I saw him biting at his upper right rear leg today. He had inflammation in front of his hips when this began and still seems to have something going on at the top of his rear rib cage on the left side, in the area where I believe he cracked some ribs last spring, which took a long time to heal and he may have re-injured this area at the start of this problem.
I've known of horses to founder due to eating acorns, and certainly, there is the toxic weed connection and in some sensitive horses, post-vaccinations.
My Vet says that almost anything can set off laminitis and that horses' hooves and digestive systems are an indication that the creator has a sense of humor.
It is good to hear, Sara, that you have successfully been using the clogs. It is wonderful that there are more options these days for our horses.
Perry has done okay today with being on the Bute. I could tell when it was time to administer the next dosage, though he did not get as shaky in the front as yesterday when he went much longer between doses.
Perry is drinking good as the day has progressed although I have been soaking his hay.
I may have forgotten to mention yesterday that my Veterinarian observed that Perry was more sensitive to the hoof testers on the left front than the right, with the right being the foot that has already experienced rotation. This did not surprise me much because it seemed that there was more heat in that foot in the recent days.
One thing that I did notice today is that while there are 4 different free-choice mineral feeders in my sick stall, the only thing that Perry has been selecting from in the past day or so is the Izmine, which is supposed to be good for detoxification and liver support. Perhaps that has helped him to manage the Bute this past day and a half. I notice that my horses go for the Izmine when the acorn season begins or when they have been eating weird weeds in the pasture.
Information about Izmine (available from Dynamite):
IzmineTM is a carbon-based mineral deposit containing more than 60 naturally-occurring minerals, enzymes, electrolytes and bio-nutrients in a readily assimilated form like a horse would find in nature if allowed to roam. It is extracted from prehistoric, organic deposits of kelp, crustacea, and other marine flora and fauna.
I hope that I am not repeating myself. I tried to nap today but my mind was too busy with too many worries and I find that I am being more than a little forgetful. Last trip up to the barn I got all the way up there only to realize that I had forgotten the ground pills/applesauce concoction back at the house, and then I misplaced the pan that I like to use to mix the pills and pellets together. Perhaps I will find it tomorrow.
Right now I cannot be held responsible for more that the basic, critical items, it seems.
I'm thinking maybe I need to get some blood work done to see how Perry's organs (liver) are functioning. Poor organ function or any number of internal issues can cause laminitis also.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:10 am:
To the list of known causes for laminitis be sure to include walnut shavings--and maybe other parts of the tree. That's actually what some research facilities use to induce laminitis for research.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:27 am:
Vicki, boy can I relate with the fuzzy thinking and the frustration of trying to figure things out so you can deal with Perry's problem(s.) If you ever want to keep yourself awake at night read my saga on Libby. Her case was very similar to that of Barbaro's. In her case, however, both tendons in her right front leg were severed, became infected, she developed severe laminitis, etc. etc. She was in the hospital for almost a year, intensive rehab at home, then dealing with the founder. The reason she is in the clog is because her founder foot is just now regrowing sound hoof! I was so terrified I was going to loose her! When the horses are so badly injured or ill I practically live in the barn or at the vet's. And, if I do go in to sleep I invariably have nightmares, which makes it barely worth trying to sleep. When we were breeding and had foals each year I stayed up almost around the clock also, but it was more exciting, joyful, and fun. I went around in a fog but didn't mind it.
I so hope you are able to finally get to the bottom of Perry's problem and help him recover. It takes so much effort, patience, research, etc. etc. Hang in there. Quite a few of us on HA have been in your shoes.
Btw, personally I think the blood work is an excellent idea.
Rachelle, like you I always fear going away. I'm a little better about it since our farrier and his family moved in across the street. Troy and Kelly both are very knowledgable horse people and help keep an eye on things. Before they were here it seemed like everytime we went anywhere someone would either get sick or injured. My champion show mare blew out her knee because the care-giver didn't bring in the horses in the correct order; it was deep, sticky mud, the mare threw a fit and spun around. Her foot stuck in the mud and she blew out her knee. When I had to have surgery (on my knee), my favorite riding mare colicked and we almost lost her...the only time in her entire life she was sick up until shortly before she died. (I went from the hospital to the vet's where I spent the night sleeping in her stall with her.) After awhile it's very easy to become paranoid! And, I'm not even mentioning the cat throw-up on the bedspread, etc. LOL
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:19 am:
One thing I have been trying to keep in my head is they do not get over founder quickly, not to expect a "normal" horse for quite awhile. Hank took me on a roller coaster ride for 6 mos, with good days and very bad days. All we can do is try to keep them from getting worse, apply supportive,vet care and WORRY!
Hope you had an uneventful night Vicki.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 10:26 am:
Vicki,
For stressful times when I don't get enough sleep, I use hypnosis CD's for "power naps."
Frederick Winters is a hypnotists who comes to our local college every year, he is just hilarious! At the shows he sells his CD's for $5, they are $10 on his website includes shipping. We have all of them except the stop smoking one.
The main part of putting you under is the same on all the cds, then each one addresses a specific subject. I sometimes listen to one in the afternoon and find myself "waking up" 30 minutes later, and I always feel better. His voice appeals to me; I have other CD's, but they annoy me more than relax me.
Maybe one on health, played in the barn, would help Perry?!
https://www.frederickwinters.com/winters_html/main.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:08 pm:
Diane, lowering the heels does increase the pull on the coffin bone by the ddf making rotation more likely so, as instructed in our articles, should not be done while a horse is foundering. Indeed some of the horses are improved by artifically raising the heels.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 12:28 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. good to know
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 5:58 pm:
Last night was more demanding than I had expected.
Perry's hindquarter muscles had become very tight and profoundly painful to the touch -- don't know if this was from standing stiffly in one position at times, related to the injury I believe he sustained two weeks ago tomorrow, or something more going on physically. The location was similar to what the books show as pain from Azoturia.
Then he was extremely worked up last night at the 3:30 - 4:00 time range check. I had to stay up there for almost two hours and took his temperature, which was still within normal range but approaching a fever. He was sweating and very agitated. It seemed that he was determined to work himself into a colic, but he calmed down when I got the other horses up from their sleep out in the pasture and locked them into the barn next to him. Though he had no medications during the overnight hours, his temperature was almost a full degree lower this morning at 8:00 A.M.
He has done quite well today.
It is really hard to not feed a horse hay who has been accustomed to free choice rations. Perry is a vacuum cleaner with hay so I need to try to find ways to slow his consumption.
Thanks, Dr. O, for clarifying about the lowering of the heels.
Sara, I will look forward to reading about Libby. What an ordeal! You obviously have been through much on behalf of your horses and your dedication is admirable.
Diane, I know that the light at the end of the tunnel is a long way off. I am just really bad with problems that drag on over time without being solved. I tend to get dragged down myself, though I never give up no matter what.
Angie, thanks for the information about the CD's. This is really something that I need to calm down my busy brain.
If all that I had to worry about was my horses, life would be easier, but add on my other responsibilities and callings, the demands of this equine intensive care get somewhat overwhelming.
But having said that, must focus on the positive!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 7:02 pm:
Vicki I am very bad in the patience department myself I hate the thoughts of going to work tomorrow, at least I'm in town the next two days and can run home and check him.
Sam did seem a little sorer without bute and his pulses in his front hooves were more pronounced. I really have mixed feelings about it since he SEEMS to get diarrhea from the bute, but I did give him some tonight. Hopefully the diarrhea doesn't reappear.
Hank looked like he was tying up when he foundered, his muscles in his hindquarters were so tight I even called the vet. I don't know the cause for sure with him, but if I had to guess it was from weighting his rear more and not moving, once I was able to handwalk him or let him in the drylot it went away. At least Hank foundered when it was a little warmer out and the ground wasn't hard as a rock, making treatment a little easier.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 - 8:42 pm:
What you say all makes sense, Diane.
Perry actually loosened up after he went through his frantic stage last night, circling around and around in his stall.
This really is tough duty though.
Wish that we could all help each other out physically, as well as with the moral support.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 6:35 pm:
Perry is still tolerating the NSAID treatment of 1 gram of Bute twice daily as well as the twice daily drugs for improving circulation to the feet.
It appears to me that the left front foot is now the one with the greatest degree of laminitis so I fear there will be rotation with both feet before this is over, if it ever is.
Perry continues to go nuts digging while being confined if there is nothing to eat for a lengthy period.
He has not been rolling or worked himself into a colic again, however, but I have given more hay than my veterinarian would prefer -- a judgment call that I have felt to be a necessary evil.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 7:55 pm:
UGGHH Vicki, do you still have to check him at night?
I don't know your feeding regimen, but what has helped when I've had one locked up and on a diet, is to make sure they get fed at least a handful of hay when the others were getting fed, also keeping at least one horse next to them when eating their food.
Sam only gets cranky when he thinks the others are eating and he's not... so he gets his handful and is happy for the most part... of course all my horses are on a diet now that it warmed up, actually Hank is having a bigger fit than Sam!
It sure seems like this will never get over doesn't it But I keep thinking about Hanks founder and it did take a LONG time before he was "better" and than a LONGER time before he was sound. Hang in there we CAN do it!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:54 pm:
Yes, Diane.
I am still on "night duty" and am kind of a walking zombie spilling, breaking and knocking things over while trying to put together enough brain cells to do something positive about two important meetings tomorrow and Wednesday.
Yesterday I was literally walking around in circles with half of my clothes on inside out -- the result of dressing and undressing so many times in the dark and too tired to fix it. Good that I live on a private farm or people would think me very eccentric.
My best friend who has otherwise helped me with horse problems took her husband to the E.R. today and before that her Mom has been in the hospital. My other good riding buddy has a broken leg and most of the women who I know are working everyday right now. So very hard to find any assistance.
Saw that Perry has been biting at his right flank and just in front of his hip quite a bit today so I hope he won't go downhill with the stomach problems again.
Thanks for the encouragement!
I'm too tired to pull my hair out.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 11:12 pm:
I feel for you, Vicki! Have you tried putting Perry's hay in a double or even triple hay nets so it's takes him longer to eat? In a way I'm "lucky" that I have two cripples. Libby, who also can't bounce around on the hard ground, can only go into the common pen she shares with Sahira. I rigged a pipe panel to go across Sahira's door to the pen so she and Libby can visit. It makes confinement much easier for both of them.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:47 am:
Sara,
Thanks -- Maybe I will get the courage to try this. I've been thinking about using multiple hay nets while worrying about the possibility of a tangled leg, though if something like that happened Perry would probably not panic as badly as Lance would, but Perry is the most accident-prone of all horses, I think!
I told my husband that I need one of these:
https://www.slowdownhayfeeder.com/content/view/19/
and a video camera system if this is to go on much longer.
If anyone has tried this "slow down" system, let me know.
On my 3:00 A.M. check Perry was showing stronger signs of a belly ache, kind of teetering on the edge of getting bad on me again, I think, so this morning I gave the other medicine but held off on the Bute and called my Vet who will be calling me back about what time he can get out here to check him.
Perry's upper rear leg muscles were really stiff again last night but at least he let me massage them unlike one other time when they were so painful that he didn't want them touched.
And we discussed doing some blood work.
My Vet is preferring to wait a few more days on X-raying the feet again but we will see about that after he looks at Perry.
We will probably order some Ulcer Guard too as I believe we are not going to be done with the Bute as of yet.
Between feeling bad and looking perkier (he did eat his pellets and medicine), I saw that Perry had been eating some Izmine again.
He is off his hay this morning but playing with Lance over the stall wall.
I narrowly averted possible disaster yesterday when I noticed that the stall door out to the paddock was about to spring open on account of Perry leaning on it so much, plus the shavings being piled so high and getting between the door and frame causing kind of a door-springing action. The screw that holds the center latch piece onto the door had worn badly and was almost pulled out. One more lean may well have popped the door right open upon another horse throwing Perry out and somewhat down into the paddock.
So something to think about when a horse is stalled for a lengthy while -- check those hinges and latches and try to keep the shavings out of the space where the door needs to close.
I stayed up late last night to prepare for a meeting today and now don't know when or if I will get there.
Was in the barn half the night if you add up the trips and time spent.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:05 am:
good points about the doors and gates. I have to put extra latches on mine also because in all the extra standing around time my horses try to figure out how to open their "horse proof" latches, and often succeed.
I hope you make it through the day, Vickie. I know how rough it is; the emotional drain tires you out even more. When you rub Perry's hind end and rear legs do you something like Sore-no-more? I found it helped. Also, wrapping the rear legs for extra support might help. You will be on the Bute for quite a while. Although my vet said he never had a problem with Bute over a long term, I know the vets at Alamo Pintado gave Libby Ulcerguard when she was on bute and several hard core antibiotics. I gave it to Sahira when she was getting 3gr. of bute/day if for no other reason than it gave me one less thing to worry about.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 1:14 pm:
Vicki I haven't tried the slow feeder you linked to but have heard good things from someone else on HA. The price tag is pretty steep though!
Hang in there with Perry, you get used to sleep deprivation after a while .. I can commiserate in that I have a 7 month old (human) baby who still gets up several times per night. I can't even guess how many mistakes I make per day at work but I am still functioning, mostly...
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 5:56 pm:
Thanks, Sara and Shannon.
I made it to my meeting with just a little time to spare before I had to get up to speak.
Perry has been eating some hay, though if he ate like this more often he might not be so fat. He hasn't had much to drink either.
His color (gums) is a little "pale."
Looks can be deceiving because my Vet said that the more active laminitis is currently in the right front rather than the left, with a pulse still present in the RF, though fainter than it has been most recently.
Perry got a shot for his stomach pain and believe it was Omeprazole.
My Vet ordered two weeks worth of Gastro Guard (at a "good"(?!?) price)after which we will re-evaluate about ordering more.
He plans to X-ray the front feet again on Friday to see if there has been any further rotation.
We are hoping for no significant rotation. The first X-rays that were done showed probably less than 5% in the RF.
If rotation is profound on following X-rays, my Vet prefers a glue-on type of shoe (he agrees about avoiding nails) along with a greater heel wedge. He likes to do things according to Rick Redden, which I don't think is exactly what my farrier prefers.
We are not seeing signs of profound rotation, however, in his opinion, which would be more lying down and evidence of blood (similar to bruising) on the sole bottoms.
I had a very discouraged feeling while comforting Perry between 3:00 and 5:00 A.M., but perhaps it is because I am over tired. Not sleeping is not good, but the greater problem for me is the endless worry and feeling of helplessness of being unable to do more to cure Perry (lack of patience?). My Vet says that it is not time to be pessimistic, and I'm not, although this still has a long way to go.
Thanks all, for your support. It really does help so much.
I'm kind of worried about how tonight will go after Perry receives the Bute because even in spite of the injection, he is still acting quite "off," though not as bad as the last time the Bute got to him.
My Vet does not believe that Perry has CD but very likely is IR, which would be caused just by virtue of his overweight condition.
The blood tests may give us more clues and will also let us know how Perry's kidneys are holding up.
My Vet is looking into finding the best chromium supplement for the IR that apparently may help, though no Veterinary prescription products are available.
Today I am to give a gram of Bute with the evening feeding only and try the same tomorrow and the following day if that works out, until the stomach situation levels out again.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 6:23 pm:
Vicki, maybe looking at Sahira's x-rays will make you feel like Perry's situation isn't so bad. Everytime I see them, they look worse to me.
Hang in there; it is a long process. You are at the worst stages right now. Did you say you were giving Perry any prebiotics or probiotics? Years ago, before they were commercially available I used to give the horses yogurt and it seemed to help. Now I either use a feed with the pre and probiotics in it or as a supplement. It might be worth a try if you aren't doing this all ready.
I'd say drink more to relax, but as tired as you are you'd sleep right through you night time checks. Hang in there, girl!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:41 pm:
Vicki I know what you mean by being discouraged and yes it is a patience problem, they don't get over founder quickly even with minor rotation. Hanks first founder his x-rays showed less than 5 degree rotation, yet his recovery was just as slow. Then the abscesses came (I hope none of us have to deal with them)
Perry will recover with your good care, and so will Sam, Sahira, and Suzy. Patience is very hard when our horses are suffering, but that is mainly what it takes along with proper care ect. They do have amazing healing powers
I hope your night goes well and soon you can get a GOOD nights sleep
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:47 pm:
Oh, Sara -- You make me laugh, and frankly, that is a welcome thing.
Sometimes when my alarm goes off for the next Perry check I am in a deep dream, but most times I wake up about 5 minutes before the alarm is due if I am fortunate enough to be sleeping.
Yes, my feed has the probiotics (and maybe prebiotics?) in it, but I will check further. A little extra yogurt couldn't hurt.
I absolutely am a person, who when things get rough, can look at the bright side and imagine how much worse things could be -- but reminders are helpful.
I have to be pretty careful these days about my wine consumption because I am so accident prone right now anyway on account of current stress demands that I am kind of a walking accident-hazard zone. I knocked a prized photograph off my mud room wall yesterday that has hung there quietly and safely for 17 years without trouble. My broom handle, while sweeping, took it down after all of this time. This is just one example of my current competency level. I was VERY cautious driving today.
My husband doesn't let me play with dangerous equipment that I might hurt myself with, even on good days, as I am kind of a klutz.
On the bright side, Perry seems to be doing better this evening, finally, after about 19-20 rather difficult hours.
I so hope that he will have an uneventful night though I have pulled out my sofa bed in the tack room just in case I need to use it.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:00 pm:
Good news! I hope you can sleep tonight...and are able to see more improvement in the morning.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:51 pm:
Ah Vicki, I feel for you. Hope Perry and you both have a good night!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 4:15 pm:
Vicki - what a rough haul you are having. I had a bit of a scare with my mare going off her feed again the last few days - but nothing compared with what you are dealing with.
Good luck,
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 9:05 pm:
Thanks Sara, Jo Ann and Lilo.
I am certainly learning the difference between ulcer pain and colic, that is for sure.
Perry spent quite a lot of time grinding and chewing nothing but his teeth for hours last night. The worst always seems to be at the 3:00 A.M. visit to the barn.
It does comfort him to have personal attention from me while the others are chewing on hay and he just doesn't feel good enough to do more than to chew nothing..
I didn't know how he would be as the morning advanced today but after he ate his pellets he gradually began picking at his hay again.
Today I gave him some "Miracle Clay," which is an old remedy (Dynamite sells it) for people and animals. He did seem to grind his teeth less and have a better appetite afterward but I know that may not really mean anything in particular.
Now that he has had his evening dose of Bute, the next time that I go to the barn I'm going to give him another ounce of the Miracle Clay. If I mix a few pellets into the clay (it is mixed with water to a mustard-like consistency he picks at it until it is gone.
I probably won't have the Gastro Guard until Friday.
Today I ordered some hay bags that will slow down consumption.
The amount of hay my Vet wants Perry to have for one of two daily feedings in order to take weight off of him can easily be gone within 10 minutes.
Maybe tonight he won't grind his teeth so much. He does seem to be doing a lot better this afternoon and evening than yesterday.
If nothing is new, I won't post again until after my Vet comes on Friday.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 9:21 pm:
Here's hoping you and Perry have a good night.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 9:45 pm:
Looking forward to a good update Friday
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:36 am:
I'll bet Perry looks like he is wearing lipstick after he eats his clay. Better be careful of horse kisses! Hoping to read of more improvement on Friday.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:31 pm:
Thanks, Sara, Diane and Jo Ann.
Last night was Perry's best in a long while.
He was not grinding or chewing his teeth nor off his hay at all (hurry up, slow-down hay bags!).
His appetite is again robust and steady and he is drinking much more water.
Whether the Miracle Clay made this difference is a subject for speculation but I will give a couple of doses on the same time schedule today as I don't believe that it can do any harm and perhaps helps buffer the Bute effects. I gave the clay mid-late afternoon, Bute about 7:30 P.M. and second dose of clay at about 11:00 - 11:30.
As I observe and learn more, I believe that Perry has had these ulcers or gastric distress for a long time -- before this whole thing began. Don't quite know what that means long term but will discuss this with my Vet tomorrow.
With his improvement and a little more rest now, I'm feeling so much better too!
You're right about Perry's nose and lips, Jo Ann. The first time I gave it to him it was all over his face and he looked hilarious.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 2:23 pm:
VickiZ, I haven't been online for a few days to catch up on Perry. I skimmed the above and noticed you asked if anyone uses the Slow Down Feeders (white plastic tubs w/ die cut plates). I use these feeders. I really like them. I have used smaller plates than recommended to feed my pig Haflingers and they have absolutely no problem using them. Makes the hay last much longer. I had to purchase a second plate for the clever, "can open and destroy anything" Haflinger", that has an extra notch to make removal even more difficult. It has worked. He kicks the tub but hasn't managed to break loose the pole/posts inside the tub. I have pictures somewhere on this site of my mare using the feeder. I'll try to remember where... All three were a little hesitant for the first 15 minutes, and all I did was pull some hay through the holes and they caught on real quick. The tubs have a soaker plug which is real handy. Hoping for the best for Perry and you.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 5:01 pm:
Thanks, Vicki.
I saw some photos, etc., and testimonials on the web site, but nice to actually have an exchange with someone who has had experience with a product.
Perry has had a good day and my Vet called about coming out tomorrow so I told him about giving the calcium bentonite. He said that the Miracle Clay cannot hurt, and indeed will act to neutralize some stomach acid, although it isn't terribly long lasting.
Will post tomorrow evening about X-rays and blood work results.
Some tornadoes are going on in the state today but no severe weather here yet, though the winds have been very high.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 7:24 pm:
Vicki doesn't soaking the hay slow Perry down or aren't you doing that anymore? It slowed chow hound Sam down quite a bit... he doesn't like it real well! And when it is an ice cube it really slows him down
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 8:27 pm:
I am soaking the hay that he likes but the stuff that he hates (as do the others) I have been giving as is because I don't think that there is much of anything (sugar, protein, carbs) to it. I do think that the soaking slows him down for about ten minutes, but that is about it.
He is a horse that within about 10 minutes or less can inhale the amount that my Vet wants him to have for one of two daily feedings.
When he runs out of grub he starts to tear up his stall, digging and looking for hay pieces, I guess.
If you give him a flake of hay, he doesn't even chew -- just sucks it down. Maybe this is why he has ulcers, which I think he has had for a long time, the more that I know.
I can't wait to get those slow-down hay bags so I can re-educate him about how it is going to be. And I am seriously looking at slow down hay feeders in each stall or even out in the pasture.
When the grass comes in, I see a grazing muzzle in his future!
I guess that I should have addressed this sooner but have gotten by for so long without consequences I just didn't focus proactively and I was really worried that he would catch the grazing muzzle in something because he is accident prone. I should have realized that the consequences could be so severe, I guess.
I just kept putting off dealing with his overweight condition thinking that it would never catch up with him.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 10:05 pm:
Vicki I know what you mean about grazing muzzles. I worried a lot too when I first began using one, and I still am very careful.
The one's made by Best Friend have velcro straps that will give way if a lot of force is used. Suzy did catch her muzzle one time on a gate latch. I didn't see it happen but I found the muzzle and halter hanging on the latch and Suzy happily grazing sans muzzle! The velcro had given way just as it was designed to and she was unhurt.
I also always use an old leather halter because I figure if she gets hung up the halter will give way if it needs to. I never have liked nylon halters. Even with leather crowns or fuses they make me nervous. Guess I'm old school!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 8:13 am:
I really like the look of the slow down hay feeders for the stall, but they're wildly expensive, and anyway US companies don't send products to Europe for individual orders. The difficult part to make yourself is the essential lockdown plate of course.
What do you guys think about this variation on the theme? https://www.hayledge.craddocksmoss.co.uk/
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Thanks Jo Ann for the reassurance about the grazing muzzles.
I am going to order one for Perry and also one for my fat, elder paint horse.
Perry has an Arabian head and with an Arab halter it needs to be secured two notches up for good fit.
The grazing muzzles don't say that they come in Arab size.
Do you think that I should order cobb size for Perry?
No blood test results yet. My Vet is going to let me know.
Good news is that the X-rays show absolutely no further rotation in either of the front feet and with looking at how Perry is moving, my Vet doesn't think that we will see any more as long as we follow our current program.
I started the Gatro Guard on Perry this evening. My Vet does not want me to give the Miracle Clay or Izmine free choice along with the prescription drugs unless there could be a 12-hour separation between the clay and prescriptions as the clay may bind with some drugs and effect the potency. So that won't work as I am giving prescription drugs every 12 hours.
However, Perry's manure has returned to normal after being on the clay for a couple of days and if he experiences more pain not being on the clay, I am to call my Vet as he then will probably will want me to start it back up again.
I am to give one gram of Bute daily for 7 more days and then attempt to wean Perry off of this NSAID. If it doesn't go well, we will give the Bute again.
He wants my farrier to take Perry's toes back some but not mess with anything else as the feet are well-balanced, and he does not want any sole removed at the present time. Nothing to be done except to take the toe back.
Without a doubt, Perry will be confined in his deep shavings for another month or more but being in the boots, he may not need shoes for more support.
My Vet is going to talk with my farrier in the days ahead as to what needs to happen.
I guess that I will still be on night watch for another week at least, as that is how long it will take for the Gastro Guard to kick in.
Frances (L.L.) -- I think that nifty looking weight device to keep horses from pulling out too much hay at once looks quite clever! It can do no harm but may do a lot of good.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:00 pm:
Good Report! I'm glad Perry had no more rotation, so it is minimal right.
Keeping the weight off will be important now so he doesn't have a relapse (been there done that) or become chronic.. this is how Hank started out.(just a warning) to be vigilant with his diet.
How is Perry moving?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:27 pm:
BTW cob size has always fit my arabs heads as far as muzzles... hope he handles it better than Hank did! I gave up with him he worked himself into a colic over it..Then just stood paralyzed.. wouldn't move with one on.. gotta love Hank!
I think this year I may try a track around the hillside in back.. after I kill any clover in it
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:42 pm:
Diane -- I wish that I was at the "keeping the weight off" stage, but first I have to get the weight off, though like I told my Vet, this is not going to happen overnight because I can't stand to see Perry go nuts and tear everything up or work himself into a colic or further advance the ulcer situation, so I am counting on these nifty hay bags to help with this problem when they arrive. And then the grazing muzzle when the grass eventually comes in, but now I wonder how well that will work out. With some horses, things are never simple!
Maybe with the new boots and getting rid of the ulcers, I can ride the boy and burn some weight off of him!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:43 pm:
LL, I know the SlowDownFeeders are expensive at $300 each; however, I can testify that they are sturdy. The one Haffie I have can tear up concrete and he hasn't torn up this feeder yet. And one super vet call would cost me $300, so I bit the bullet and paid the $ as the Haffies eat waaaaaaaaaay too fast. Like VickiZ stated about her piggy eater, 10 min and the hay ration can be gone... The one pig I have can inhale 5# of hay in under 15 min if it isn't in the feeder or haybag or something...He slobbers and has gobs hanging out of his mouth. I don't see how he has never choked himself he is such a glutton. It's almost disgusting to watch him eat if the hay is loose...unlike the others who chew contentedly and at a decent pace... The feeders have been a godsend. I can make 5# of hay last 2-3 hours and longer if I put TWO plates on as the holes overlap and he has an even smaller hole to pull hay through. He eats wheat straw to keep himself busy when the hay is gone. The others have wheat straw but generally don't do more than nibble on it. ? Some folks have trouble feeding straw, but I haven't. ? I don't know what else to do with my Haffie pig...other than restrict him! He can eat an amazing amount of grass if left out too long. He is rarely on anything other than overgrazed pasture. I am super paranoid about foot trouble especially after reading so much on this site, so I opted to spend the $...I'd rather do that than possibly have foot trouble and all the headache, pain, lost time, and expense associated with horse foot trouble! Who knows...I may be spitting in the wind.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 10:00 pm:
Vicki Z. exercise is one of the main things that keeps me out of trouble as far as founder with Hank.
Once you get the ok to exercise him doing anything helps.. even running them around the pasture. Teaching Hank at liberty work helped keep him at an acceptable weight so he could graze a little. I started doing it with Sam a little too. BOY what 2 different horses. One bull headed and ones flighty can you guess who's who
I don't do anything with mine in the winter, not enough daylight and I already spend 8 hrs. a day outside with my job in the weather... that's enough!
About this time of year I try to start taking off any excess weight, so the grass isn't as likely to "get them" if they were fat.
It's all a balancing act. Once these stalled horse are allowed back out it is much easier to diet them, at least they can wander around and amuse themselves. Sam is always begging for food in his stall.
Vicki(from Ind.) I think we have made you paranoid
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 7:09 am:
Diane,
My pattern with feeding horses has always been to try and put weight on before winter. The only time I would up the "grain" (safechoice or whatever)used to be late summer/early fall. i mean feeding more than a cup with supplements.
I didn't do that last year, PLUS the horses are still on the track. I have to say they are all at a very good weight. Willow gains easily,,,gets the big hay belly, and she did both this winter, not as bad as previous winters.
I believe the track is helping a lot. I fed double hay for over a month, plus stalled them more nights than normal. AND dumped whole corn out daily (deer season was done, it was going to waste, ha ha!)Of course corn isn't good for founder prone horses, but mine are used to getting some in the winter.
Please excuse mispelled words or missing letters, exra characters. I think our keyboard needs cleaning!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 7:26 am:
Angie I like the track Idea and have plenty of space for one... The deer take out all electric fence in Dec. never fails, I just got done fixing it all again.
How do you go about starting them on the track tho, if I made a decent sized one there would be too much grass to begin with I think, I guess I could just leave them on it an hour or 2 a day until it was gone.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 9:07 am:
If I had a lot of pasture, I would do a narrow track for starters and put them on it like introducing spring pasture. An hour say to start. I think if they were on the track year round eventually, it would be like living in the wild, they would slowly start eating spring grasses as they emerge. I won't have that problem as I only have the one track in use right now, and I don't think I will ever see grass on it again. I am debating seeding it early spring to see what will happen; will they work the seed in? If I can afford to make a 2nd track in the west pasture, which is not connected to this one, I might have a chance of regrowing something green on the track.
It's a work in progress for sure. I don't know what I will do when spring thawing starts, it will be very painful to see all that torn up "track" that used to be lush green pasture!
I have been lucky in that the deer haven't taken the electric inner fence down. They do stretch and bust up the (outer perimeter) Horse Guard fencing though! I was thinking I could have problems if they took the inner fence down and the horses got in the interior with the winter grass.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 2:39 pm:
Ha!Ha! Yes, I can guess, Diane. Makes me think about how different my horses are one from the other!
Good ideas about setting up track areas or sections of limited size/grass.
This is going to be a whole new experience for me.
Perry didn't do quite as well without the Miracle Clay dose last evening so he was grinding his teeth somewhat again on the 3:00 P.M. check, so I had to stay and watch him for longer than I would have hoped to have to do. It was obvious that he had done some rolling.
Then when I was finally sound asleep and back in bed my husband let the dogs out a full hour earlier than my next wake up time was scheduled, because he getting ready to go to play golf. They commenced lengthy, vigorous barking so that was the end of my rest.
My Vet said that it will take about a week for the Gastro Guard to work, which isn't all that convenient because that is for how much longer I am supposed to definitely give the Bute!
He told me that I could change my medication schedule but he prefers me not to give the Bute or Gastro Guard any closer than 12 hours to a dose of clay, so this doesn't sound very workable for using the clay.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 10:59 am:
Vicki are Perry's eyes still running or goopy?
I noticed today that Sam's are cleared up. I have read that IR horses get goopy/runny eyes (don't know why)
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 11:23 am:
Diane, Perry's eyes are improved but not cleared up.
For years he had a tendency toward getting eye infections and for the last couple of years the drainage has been chronic.
The thick, very sticky drainage cleared up when he was on those heavy IV antibiotics for the cellulitis last year, but he continues to have a watery discharge that sometimes gets "goopy."
I'm still waiting to get the blood test results for him. They must have gone to the slowest laboratory in the state.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 11:59 am:
Sams took 4-5 days to get back I think, my vet won't draw blood on Fri. or the weekends he says it sits around too long before getting tested.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 7:36 pm:
Vicki how is Perry doing? did you get his blood tests back? Been wondering how he and Sahira have been doing.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 8:27 pm:
Thanks for asking, Diane.
I've not received the blood results yet and need to call my Vet because this is now really overdue.
I have been hesitating to post because I am not really knowing where Perry's condition stands right now.
My farrier came yesterday and saw how well Perry was walking (in his boots).
He looked at Perry's hooves and said he did not believe that there had been any rotation.
I told him that my Vet said to take the toes back, but to leave the sole alone.
Ultimately, I think that he trimmed him the same as any other time and did take some sole.
Then he asked his assistant to walk Perry so that we could see how he moved. Perry was walked in a very large circle over hard ground on up and down grade. Not good.
And indeed, it appeared at that time that he was doing well in the front.
My farrier believes, as I have thought, that this whole condition was fueled by something that happened in the hindquarter.
But my Vet and I have nursed Perry for 3 weeks, and the farrier cannot appreciate all that we have gone through so now he can say that the Vet misread the X-rays, etc., and that I ought to turn Perry out, though into a controlled area, minus, boots, shoes or shavings.
Bottom line after farrier visit -- Perry was more sore in the front today (plus greater pulses) so I don't know how much we have gone backward.
It is intolerable when Vet and farrier do not agree.
On a good note, my "slow down" hay bags arrived and Perry has transitioned from the larger openings to the smaller ones (which he first would not even take on) as though it is a challenge to beat.
Also, the Gastro Guard is finally having an effect and I was able to skip my 3:00 A.M. check/observation last night, which is a good thing because I've been sick the past few days with an upper respiratory virus.
These hay bags will greatly reduce the speed with which he can eat.
Trying to stick with the program while not knowing how far in the distance the light is.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 9:04 pm:
I think it's crucial to have vet and farrier on the same page. They should be talking together about the plan going forward. If it's an option, I'd ask your vet for a farrier referral he can work with. Sounds like your farrier needs to reduce his client load by at least one client! But that's just me, I'm always quick to say "fire the farrier!" but it's inexcusable to me to have a horse more sore after trimming than before and to have one practice medicine without a license and second guess the vet!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 9:05 pm:
HMMM kind of confusing! Altho if Perry looks good in his boots and not so good without them I would have to wonder if the hind end problem isn't coming from the front? Hanks back end always looks "wonky" when his front hooves hurt. With the back looking worse than the fronts that are sore.
I always thought Hank had a hitch in his get along..but in retrospect I think it has been his hooves all along.
Yes not a good thing when farrier and vet disagree! The simple thing really I guess, is to see what his back end looks like when his fronts are padded and not sore... that should "tell the tale" on the back end
Glad you are off night watch Progress is being made. Sorry to hear about your virus lot of that going around right now.
Keep us updated as things progress.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 12:29 am:
The slow feeders should help you a lot. The fact you don't have to check Perry in the wee hours of the morning is good news. Like the others, I'm baffled about the farrier if indeed he took sole. I certainly wouldn't turn Perry out and would keep his boots on until he's no long sore. Good luck; keep us posted. I certainly know what you mean about trying to keep with the program when you don't know how far is the future you're headed!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 8:09 am:
Vicki, what did the farrier say about the horse being worse following the trimming?
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 12:45 pm:
Dr. O, I know that my farrier will have some kind of an answer, but the truth is that I have been too upset to notify him. I'll let you know what he has to say when I do make contact with him.
I know that my farrier has handled a lot of severely foundered horses after the fact of rotations, and with good outcomes, but it seems to me that he has an attitude that if there is going to be rotation, that is the way that it is, and doing anything preventively to avoid damage won't work long term anyway. At least, that is the impression that he gives me.
He told me to draw a line around the top (where hairline meets hoof) of Perry's hoof with a Magic Marker, and then as the hoof grows out it will be evident whether there has been any rotation or not. Does this make any sense?
I just called my Vet and discussed the situation with him, and he is coming by later today to re-evaluate the situation. He said that Perry's is a "minor case" but that if the farrier took some sole and then Perry was walked around as he was, that he would expect some soreness, but his initial feeling is that most likely, additional damage has not been done.
It will make me feel a lot better to have my Vet's input again. Especially since he has been on this case since the beginning.
One bit of great news is that Perry's blood work was all fine. No kidney or liver problems indicated, and not even a high glucose level.
Diane, maybe it is just a coincidence, but Perry's eyes had cleared up beautifully by the time he was looking really good on the front, but now they are weepy looking again. It makes one wonder if the eyes can weep on account of pain and extra stress therefrom?
You are right about pain in the front making a horse move funny in the hind also, Diane. I saw this firsthand when Perry had an abscess in his right front some years ago. He was moving like he was very sore in all four feet. When the nerve was blocked in the right front, however, everything changed.
Julie, I'm very upset about this, and found out that my Vet did call my farrier and left a message asking him to return the call, which he did not do. He KNEW that my Vet would be calling to tell him what should be done and he appears to have avoided talking to my Vet so that he would not be given any instructions.
My farrier generally does a really great job for my boys, but this really is an unacceptable set of circumstances.
Thanks, Sara -- You are so right about staying with the program.
I am so thankful that the Gastro Guard appears to be working now, so that I have been able to skip the 3:00 A.M. trip to the barn. It would have been really tough duty feeling as lousy as I have been these past two days.
I will post about what my Vet has to say after he checks Perry later today. Perhaps I have over-reacted to this situation.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 1:48 pm:
Vicki - so sorry about the lack of communication between farrier and vet. That is not a good situation, but I do not know what your choice of farriers is.
Good luck going forward, hope you feel better soon.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 3:20 pm:
Thanks, Lilo.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 8:16 pm:
My Vet agrees that Perry has gone from feeling good earlier this week to having considerably more pain and pulse in his right front.
He feels that what has been done has not caused further actual damage, though instead of just another day or two of Bute, we are now going to have to do another full week.
Though my Vet would have liked to have seen how Perry would do off the Gastro Guard after the two-week course, he is going to order me enough for two extra weeks of treatment just in case it does not go well to remove Perry from the Bute.
I do not want to have to go through another stomach readjustment period.
The plan is to keep Perry stalled and in the boots for another 30 days (though it will be allowed to remove the boots while he is in the stall for some limited amounts of time).
After 30 days, we will begin a limited amount of turn out.
This is not a horse who has to go back to work, though we do not wish for him to experience contracted tendons from a lay up that is overly long.
My Vet told me that my farrier does not like him, and that they have had some problems on other cases in the past.
On the upcoming trims, I will have my other horses trimmed by my farrier, but keep Perry strictly off limits and my Vet will trim him until this ordeal is completely resolved.
My Vet recognizes that this farrier has done wonderful things for my horses, and realizes that there is nothing to be gained by starting a fight.
I like and respect them both a great deal, but it is clear to me that in this instance, varying from a program that was working, was not the best call. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to not just turn this horse out as I would have liked to have done and that my farrier might have preferred, or there could potentially have been seriously worse damage.
No fun when health care professionals disagree, but this does happen amongst the finest.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 8:21 pm:
Vicki is it common for your farrier to pare sole? Or was he just removing the old loose stuff? I know when Hank foundered the sole was sacred ground not to be touched, even the old flaky stuff. To this day we still never touch his sole.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 11:19 am:
No, mostly he just uses the rasp on the sole and sometimes the nipper to take a toe back. He never does anything extreme and has never made any of my horses sore ever before. He doesn't even remove anything in the bar area but rather lets the horse self trim in that regard. He did have a hoof knife that he used on something when he was last out but I didn't see what -- maybe trimmed the edge of the frog a bit?
Perry's feet were extremely hard, and it seemed like the rasping made them less so.
And taking even a little sole right now apparently made the tip of the coffin bone just that little bit closer to the bottom of the foot.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 12:48 pm:
So sorry to hear about your setback Vicki. Ugh, nothing worse than being caught in the middle of a vet and farrier who disagree when they have both done good work in the past!
Does your farrier usually rasp the sole? The rasp can take a LOT of material off in short order, I'm not a pro but would never consider rasping my own horses soles, not to mention doing it after a founder or on a sore horse... But then I generally don't take the sole at all, only when it's exfoliating.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:26 am:
Thanks, Shannon,
The rasp is what my farrier usually uses on the sole but he doesn't overdo it.
Since Perry was doing so splendidly when my farrier saw him, at the 3 week point in time following the laminitis onset, I think he really discounted how much Perry had gone through up until that point in time.
And he probably already had some preconceived notions about my Veterinarian's analysis, since he and my Vet have apparently had some serious disagreements in the past.
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Member:
shedwall
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 12:37 pm:
Vicki,
I am going through the same thing with my vet and farrier being in constant disagreement. It is so frustrating. Their primary concern should be the horse and not their personal differences.
Shelley
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 1:38 pm:
HMMM maybe being my own vet and farrier (along with HA help) isn't so bad after all, I just disagree with myself sometimes.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:08 pm:
LOL Diane I can just hear you out in the barn arguing with yourself .. no wonder the ponies think we're crazy ;)
Vicki how is your boy doing today?
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:10 pm:
It's a sad situation and I respect both of them very much. But my Vet is the one who has been treating this from the beginning and realizes where we have come from with the farrier just seeing how good he looked that day and then questioning the ability of my Vet to take and read X-rays or to even correctly diagnose laminitis. I saw the symptoms and what my Vet did and have no doubt about the diagnosis.
Nobody is right 100% of the time, but some people sure seem to think that they are.
Perry is doing great with his "slow down" hay bags. Having that hay in the bag, even if it is hard to get to, keeps him from digging the stall up because he has no hay. His new grazing muzzle arrived yesterday. I've already tried it on him and will let him wear it in the stall a few times when I will be around to monitor the situation.
Diane -- Nobody knows your horses like you do. We always need to listen to our instincts as we make decisions on their behalf.
You'll probably become so accomplished at all of this that you could get work doing horse care and trims!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:28 pm:
Vicki I think I will probably end up in 2 west (the name of the local psycho ward) before that ever happens.
The thing about laminitis is every horse is different, some horses with little rotation can be very painful and hard to recover, and the flip side some with more rotation can recover quickly, many variables. I would hope your vet can read x-rays and would have to go with his opinions at this time.
Does Perry seem to be out of the acute stage now and hopefully recovering from his trim? How much rotation was estimated? Did he have a thick sole? all of these things come into play. I can't be sure without x-rays, but if I HAD to guess Sam has/had a thick sole which is helping him recover faster... his is a strange case tho.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:45 am:
Vicki - glad to hear Perry is improving. Can you tell us what brand of "slow-down" hay bags you are using. I am thinking about trying the ones advertised on www.busyhorse.com for my gelding, who finishes his hay in 2 hours or so. I got him a haybag with smaller openings and put some of his hay in that, but it does not slow him down a lot, and is kind of hard to load with hay.
Lilo
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 1:13 pm:
Hi Vicki, I am just catching up on your thread. Sorry to hear of the dispute between vet and farrier. It sounds as if you have come to a good solution by letting your vet take over the complete care of Perry for now.
I am not sure about using a grazing muzzle in the stall to slow down hay intake. My understanding is that they work well for slowing grazing, but its hard for a horse to get any hay with its longer stems up into the muzzle. I'd also worry about it getting caught on a feed or water bucket unless you have no protruding edges on your feeder and waterer.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 5:17 pm:
Diane,
After we had the setback Perry seemed much more "glued to one spot" and did not want to stand on the RF for me to lift the LF.
He has improved since then but it is still noticeable that there is tenderness with the RF, which was extremely painful to the hoof testers when my Vet was here on Thursday.
The fact that he is not moving around any more than necessary makes me feel this reactivated somewhat after he had been doing so splendidly.
Perry does seem to have a thick enough sole. The point of the coffin bone did not appear close to it on the X-ray.
Lilo, Those are the exact bags that I bought. I noticed that it is suggested to begin with the slightly larger size squares first to acclimate the horse, which really helped. Otherwise I don't know if he would have tried with the smaller squares.
I figure I can use the one with the larger squares for other purposes and for my other horses now that Perry has successfully graduated to the smaller squares, which only took a couple of days.
The smaller bag that only holds a half flake to a flake is REALLY challenging, and I have that hanging over by the stall door so he can play with it when he is looking out.
I got a couple of the larger-capacity bags with the smallest squares and they are great. They need to be hung on a flat wall type of surface. I put up some O rings and use two double-end snaps per bag for extra safety as just one snap came open one day causing the bag to fall down though it did not open up and they can still eat out of them that way.
The company was very good to deal with and I received the bags very fast once I ordered them even though I did not pay for any expedited shipping.
Thanks, Jo Ann, I agree about the grazing muzzle in the stall and my plan is to put it on him a few times while I watch him (and perhaps stick a few pieces of hay up into the hole) so that when I eventually want to use it on him outdoors he will not be completely taken aback. (Just a training and conditioning exercise for now).
I must say, Perry really is being a good boy throughout this ordeal.
When he has a problem he seems to understand that he needs to cooperate, though he is getting more cranky about receiving the Bute.
On my way now to give him his Gastro Guard.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 7:11 pm:
Vicki that was a bad setback, that's why I hesitate to have my farrier work on Sam. Sounds like he is on the mend again. It's always disheartening when they have setbacks when they were doing so good. Hope he continues to improve!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:10 pm:
Diane,
If in doubt, err on the side of being conservative.
Especially with all of the deep shavings, there is no reason for you to rush with Sam's feet.
As we read Dr. O's write up about what to do after the critical stage is past, the lamini are still tenuous and great care must be taken not to do anything that will cause greater stress.
It is a lengthy process to true stability.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:15 am:
Vicki, Hank will attest to the lengthy process.
According to the article removing toe flare and leaving the rest alone is the way to go in the acute stage or when they are still sore. Doesn't sound like your farrier was very conservative, Tho from the sounds of it Perry doesn't have a toe flare (yet anyway) I think that is why your farrier said to mark it with a marker to show you his hoof won't flare with the new growthand he may not,especially with proper trimming. That doesn't mean some damage wasn't done to the hoof, and at this point should be treated as such.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 12:59 pm:
Hi Vicki - thank you for the feedback on the busyhorse items. Need to save up some money for horsey items.
So - you are saying that you can give Perry bute to alleviate pain, but not Banamine?
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 5:06 pm:
Now that he is on the Gastro Guard, Lilo, the Banamine would be okay as well(excpet he hates the taste of it so much I have a really hard time getting him to swallow it).
He was having a reaction to all of the NSAID drugs until he had been on the Gastro Guard long enough to protect his stomach.
Even the Banamine or Bute injections altered the chemistry in his stomach so that he was miserable.
The Gastro Guard has helped enormously.
These slow down hay bags do work good!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 6:02 pm:
Today is our last day for Bute before trying to wean Perry off of it.
I don't know what to think about how it will go as I do not feel that he has even nearly bounced back to the level where he was before he had his feet trimmed.
He is still feeling well with his stomach, so I have not had to spend long hours during the evenings up at the barn.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:23 pm:
Vicki is he still off on soft ground even? I actually like to get them off bute for a day or two to gauge how sore they really are.
Hope things go well.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 11:23 am:
Vicki - wishing you and Perry the best. You have been through a rough time and deserve a break from all the worry.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 4:05 pm:
Thanks, Diane and Lilo,
I'm on my way to the barn now to check on and work with the horses, and get ready for the nighttime again.
Perry still has really deep shavings in the big stall and has the boots on.
He didn't seem as sore yesterday as the prior day.
My Vet said that I can back off on adding more shavings now, but the only problem with that is adding more is one way that I keep things dry, which is a must.
I'm supposed to keep the boots on most of the time but the new ones I bought fit more loosely -- of course, he got trimmed before I began using the new ones (and my Vet now has taken his back).
I can't help but wonder if the newer boots make it harder for Perry to get around, and they are made to fit more snugly around the leg, though they are sloppier on the hoof.
I can tell that he is still tending to favor the RF, though not as bad as it has been, we're still not back to doing as well as he was before the trim. That really set the process back.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 12:25 am:
Vicki, are the new boots soft-rides? Are they a different size than what you had from your vet?
I just ordered new soft-rides for Suzy this week, and the rep from the company told me that they should fit the hoof snugly rather than loosely when deciding between sizes.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 12:48 am:
Vicki, if the boot area really sloppy fitting, you can try putting a baby diaper on the hoof before putting it into the boot and see if that helps. It that is too much, you can also tape the foam insert to the foot and wrap it enough so that the wrapped foot fits snugly into the boot. If you tape the pad on, however, be sure and take it off every couple of days so the foot can air out, then redo it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:25 am:
That is why I don't like boots, learned with Hank his hoof changes too much. I have a whole arsenal of boots and of course none fit Sam. They should make expandable boots that expand and shrink with the hoof as it changes. I did get Sam the easy boot RX's and they are nice with a little wiggle room as far as sizing.
Good advice wrapping the hoof to make them fit. If they are a little big, that would increase his breakover and also not feel as secure moving.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:17 pm:
It will be 48 hours this evening since Perry has had any Bute, and so far things are going well. In fact, Perry has been looking a little better the past day or so and appears to be moving around in the stall more too.
He is not acting like he is painful today.
Yes, Jo Ann, the new boots are Soft Rides, and they are the same size as the ones my Vet had most recently loaned to me, but when my Vet saw how these new ones fit Perry, he thought that although marked inside with size 6, they seem to be a size larger.
Before the 6, Perry had on my Vet's oldest pair of size 7, which is a size smaller, and they were really snug, actually a little too snug. Now I think that a 7 would have been better, but my Vet had told me 6 was what I should order as better for our current purposes.
I had hoped to potentially use the boots for riding too, but am not seeing that as happening now, and that is kind of a disappointment.
And I don't think these will fit anyone else except Perry, who is a smaller horse than my others, and my daughter's horses are all much bigger.
Now I have three different brands of boots in my barn! They can join the various saddles that don't really fit anyone. Really, I ought to have a tack sale!
I guess I should have waited until after Perry was trimmed, then measured him and ordered boots, instead of just ordering these based on the two different sizes that he had tried out and worn that belonged to my Vet. Perhaps they have changed their sizing somewhat over the years. They have changed the design somewhat.
Thanks, Sara, for the good ideas, which I may have to try.
The boots get really filled with shavings, and where I used to remove them once daily to clean, twice daily is looking like a better idea now.
I could put duct tape over the openings on the outside, but that would cut down on the circulation of air.
Threatening weather here today -- tornado watches or warnings all over the place. It is good that I did as much work as possible at the barn earlier today.
Must run up there within an hour to give the Gastro Guard.
Though Perry has not yet lost his "fat pads" in the tail area, he has lost some weight. About 20 pounds according to the weight tape. Lots more pounds to go!
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 4:52 pm:
Good news that Perry is doing well off bute.
Vicki, the soft-ride folks were really great when I talked with them on the phone. If the boots show no signs of wear, I think it would be worth calling to see if you could exchange them.
Hope the bad weather misses you. It is snowing here again today. Looks like we are having a record setting winter.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:26 pm:
Vicki, when I was reading about the soft rides it said they shouldn't be used for riding, I also read they don't hold up well to much turnout either? Before I spent all that money I researched them a bit...I have way too many unuseable boots as it is!
I'm surprised the vet still wants him in boots, especially since he is on soft bedding.
Glad he is on the mend again and hope it continues!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:15 pm:
Thanks Jo Ann and Diane.
I think that I've used these boots too much to expect a return. The folks at Soft Ride really are nice, however.
The worst of the bad weather seems to have missed us again. Most often we get pretty lucky here, though a few years ago tornadoes killed a lot of people this month -- mostly people in older trailers, but some very well-built houses and buildings fell in on top of people too.
My Vet did specifically instruct to keep the boots on Perry for the present time, but I think that if he appears to be doing well in the next couple of days that I should at least switch over to the standard inserts instead of the gel inserts made for cases of laminitis.
The Soft Ride folks said that when the horse's laminitis has improved, switch over to the standard inserts.
Diane, My vet explained that it takes nearly a whole year for a new hoof to grow out and so that one must be very cautious with the transition period following a laminitis, because there is just a weakness that has been created.
I am really bad about having horses stalled up, and having already gone backward, probably between a week to two, or more, on account of the trimming, I don't want to go backward any further.
I don't have any help here on my farm, so any increase in sweat, labor, or worst of all, stress and worry, falls upon me.
Perry still does not look as good as he did pre-trim, but good enough to make me hopeful again.
It is interesting that on the RF there is quite a lot of new growth material at the toe, which I have to think is defensive and an example of the horse trying to heal a problem. And very good to see, because that would not happen without decent blood circulation.
My Vet seems very cautious, but I have to say that he has been really good with my horses and others, so have to follow his instructions, whether I or my farrier would prefer a faster transition.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:26 pm:
Yes always follow vets advice I have to just go by instincts which aren't always right.
It does take the hoof about a year to grow give or take a few months, I'm sure your vet is aiming for as tight of lamenar bond that is possible.
As we have learned on here many times there is more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for one horse doesn't work for another... a balancing act You are lucky to have a vet helping you along
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 7:46 pm:
You are quite right, Diane.
I hope that I will know when the time is right to let Perry go out more.
I think that I will.
Generally, if I had listened to my gut over the years -- over what told by Vets OR farriers, I probably would have done quite well!
My Vet has seen me through a lot, including the horrible time with Lance when he truly thought that Lance would not survive, but didn't tell me that.
He looks at Lance every time he comes on my farm, in wonderment. And he gives some credence to the "tough Arab" heart.
He's a good Vet. Not perfect.
I've got a great farrier.
Not perfect.
I am just a person who loves keeping horses, though hates when they are in pain or suffering.
I never wanted to know this much about keeping horses healthy, but I am their keeper, so do the very best that I can.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 1:12 pm:
My Vet stopped by today with my Gastro Guard, so checked on Perry.
He still tests tender in the feet with the hoof testers and has pulses, worst in RF.
However, he was very pleased with how Perry is moving more freely and also doing better on sharp turns. Especially given that he has had no Bute since Wednesday evening.
He feels that the worst is over but instructed to leave the boot inserts for laminitis cases in the boots for a couple of more weeks and continue to use the boots and keep him stalled for "about another 30 days."
He showed me how I can tighten the boots up a bit extra by ignoring the way that the velcros are designed to be used by running the first one past the end of the second velcro, up onto the last piece that velcros down. (This may not make any sense to those without experience with these boots).
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 3:12 pm:
Smart Vet! (oh...duh...LOL) So glad Perry is doing so much better.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 4:56 pm:
Thanks, Sara.
My Vet had just talked to one of the folks from Soft Ride this week, and apparently they are constantly looking for ways to make various improvements to their boots and have recently made some changes.
As a very mechanically challenged individual, I was kind of nervous about being able to handle these boots, but they are pretty easy, aren't they?
Apparently I am going to have to point out to my Vet that nine days ago he said that in about 30 days Perry could have some turnout time, and now he again said "in 30 days." He doesn't seem to realize that I literally AM counting the days seriously here.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 7:57 pm:
I know that counting feeling!! I love the Soft Rides; just wish they weren't so expensive. Keep us posted.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 12:40 pm:
Well, Perry seems more reluctant again to stand on the right front and as I posted under thrush to his frog, he obviously has pain in the right rear area of his right front foot.
As it doesn't seem that this pain could be from the thrush (and frogs look much better after three treatments with Betadine) I am concerned that the extra pressure from the boots gel insert to raise the heels for laminitis patients may be putting too much extra pressure on this sore area.
Perry also seems like he is moving around less and he was clearly doing some funny things with his hind legs again.
I think that he is borderline with needing to be back on the Bute again, whether for the old laminitis or the potential for a new one due to foot-favoring.
I'm going to see toward the later afternoon if he seems any better on account of having the regular inserts in the boots.
I thought that he would want to move around while he had the boots off but he was pretty well just planted on one spot the whole while they were removed.
If he continues to be as he is, I will call my Vet and discuss this with him to decide where we go from here.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 6:30 pm:
For current status of Perry, see the posting under "Thrush."
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