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  Discussion on Sams founder 3...bloodwork questions
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 8:34 pm:

Dr,O I went and got a copy of Sams bloodwork

Everything was pretty normal K was high, but I take it that is pretty normal

CPK was a little high... to be expected I think?

Normal 100-300 Sam was 380

His insulin was 435.8... normal 5-20
Glucose was 74.... normal...60-125

Says was verified by repeat analysis

Here is the comment

Serum insulin levels >90 mU/ml in the face of euglycemia support possible PPID OR actual pituitary adenoma. Verification of ECD with a plasma ACTH level and overnight dex suppression test is recommended

Ratio 990.... whatever that means

I don't question he has CD he hasn't shed out for over 7 years and has had every symptom of it.

I don't question that he is IR also, but would like to understand a little bit better, if possible.

When a horse has CD and is IR are they considered 2 different entities? Can Cushings Disease ALONE cause a horse to be IR???

Can the IR actually act up, and the CD not be involved with it??

What does euglycemia mean in the comment above? Is that the same as uncompensated IR as you were talking about before?? and how does that actually point to CD and warrant further testing???? (I'm not going to do that I know he has CD) Just trying to understand.

As Jo Ann asked in Sams other thread can excitement/nervousness raise the insulin reading, will a meal 3 hrs. before the test raise the insulin level?

Again I know he has high insulin I am not questioning that, but if I decide to have it done again in the future would like to know if these factors are involved at all.

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 18, 2010 - 9:24 pm:

I found this as I was looking around, you guys with horses that are foundering might find it interesting too. I found it interesting that only 1/5 show "symptoms" of CD. Only 17.9% had the long hair coat.

That 1.5mg of pergolide helped more than 1mg.
It has a pop up body thing showing the "weird fat" that can mean cushings disease. (Hank has me worried now!)

Anyway if you are interested

https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=1595
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 7:46 am:

I meant does euglycemia = compensated IR not uncompensated
Member:
cheryl

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:53 am:

Well just shucks - Cushings was suggested for Fox by one Vet - but she dismissed it when she found out she was only 7 at the time - Have you ever had Hank tested for Cushings Diane? That would be very interesting. Perhaps Cushings in the culprit in most of these founder cases. What are your thoughts on this Dr. O? Sam has the long hair associated with Cushings - Fox doesn't even put on a heavy coat for winter - and if I'm remembering correctly - Hank appears to have a normal winter coat. All three of them have the fat deposits depicted in the article. You really blew me out of the water with this one Diane.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 9:09 am:

It is an interesting article.

I am very curious about the comments on Sams blood work and if euglycemia can point to CD.

I have had Hanks insulin and glucose tested a few years ago. I believe his insulin was borderline high and his glucose slightly elevated (very slightly) I think 1 point over normal, but it is something to take into consideration and maybe test for again. He isn't as "lumpy" as Sam.

He does have a very normal, actually short winter coat. This year he seems to have guard hairs he has never had before.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:49 am:

Diane, euglycemia simply means normal blood glucose. Eu = normal glyc = glucose emia = of the blood. It doesn't imply compensated or lack of disease, just that the blood glucose level is within the normal range.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:51 am:

So if insulin levels are high and glucose is normal, then the horse is compensated IR.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 5:41 pm:

But how does that consider into possible cushings I wonder.

With the comments above on his bloodwork it sounds as if the high insulin and normal glucose suggests CD.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 7:55 pm:

Sam had 2 pretty good days in a row pulses remain gone in fronts, backs are still there but once again a LITTLE quieter. He is still a sore little boy no doubt.

I have to guess from the looks of his WL's and soles he foundered much worse in the right rear and the right front.. His hooves are a total mess, but that will have to wait awhile yet.

Sam is getting bute according to his pulses pretty much, for the last couple days I have been able to get away with 1 gram at night. The diarrhea is still gone. 1.5 mls. of pergolide,
10ish pounds of soaked grass hay. 1 cup of timothy pellets twice a day. I added in Hanks hoof supplement yesterday. It seems to be a lacking diet as far as protein, vits. and minerals since his hay is soaked, but for now I'm just going to keep it simple and as he hopefully improves maybe add the ration balancer back in. He does have free choice minerals which he really doesn't touch much, a salt block.

He still is only drinking about 2 gals. of water a day.

He has nothing on his hooves just a $1000 worth of bedding to stand on. He is moving pretty darn good on a straight line.. turns still look painful BUT better. His weird fat is still shrinking. Yet he is a bit ribby. Appetite is GOOD

I am starting to feel a little optimistic now(knock wood)
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 8:29 pm:

Great News! Hope that things continue to improve, Diane.

If giving any kind of supplements make sure that there are no glucosamines in there (such as joint supplements that are sometimes in hoof supplements). This, according to my Vet.

I had to stop the Corta-Flx for Perry upon his advice.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 9:27 pm:

Just a hoof supp, no joint stuff in it. Hanks hoof seemed to grow well with it, so I thought it worth a shot.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 10:53 pm:

I had to chuckle at the "$1000 worth of bedding." Man, if I spent nearly as much on my bed and bedding as I do the horses, I'd be a different person I'm sure! Maybe we should just sleep in the barn.

So glad he continues to improve, Diane.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 - 11:25 pm:

The "tumor in his head" causes increased or dysfunctional cortisol secretion, which in turn increases blood glucose, and then the pancreas produces more insulin to bring the glucose levels back down into the normal range. If the pancreas has to crank out a ton of insulin to keep blood glucose normal, then there is insulin resistance.

As far as how you distinguish Cushings from PIR, you'll need Dr. O to explain. In fact, I probably should just let Dr. O answer your questions because I am trying to understand equine physiology from a human phys background, and I may well be leading you astray!

Anyway, its good to hear that your boy is doing better!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 7:07 am:

Thanks Jo Ann I get your first paragraph

I suppose since he has very high insulin >90 as they state it points to CD.?

That is what I'm wondering how would a person determine if his cushings is responsible for the high insulin, or maybe that isn't possible.

Horses can have IR without being PPID I think can't they? I see now why they may go hand in hand.

Is uncompensated IR worse than compensated IR? or is it all just relative

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 9:43 am:

Diane, taking your questions in order:
  • IR is a result of CD but CD is not the only cause as EMS horses demonstrate.
  • Euglycemia means a normal blood glucose level.
  • Euglycemia in the face of high insulin values indicate a compensated IR: the horse by secreting higher levels of insulin are able to overcome the IR of the tissues and maintain a normal blood glucose.
  • IR is one of the signs of CD.
  • Insulin normally varies greatly during the day including following a meal. As the meal increases the blood glucose so the body elevates the insulin to bring it back into line.

DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 10:49 am:

Thanks Dr.O. So if a horse does have a high insulin level >90 according to this lab and normals, it isn't a bad idea to test for Cushings disease... Never knew that. I know Sam has PPID because of his other symptoms.

Thanks Jo Ann and Dr.O. for the explanations.. even tho I now have even more, but will refrain
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 1:55 pm:

But isn't it also true that not all IR horses have CD? We finally figured out what was Ziggy's issue when he was 6 and no indication of CD then or now at age 7.....his blood work even mentioned no indications of CD so far as rec. additional testing.

Not to add confusion but..........
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 3:08 pm:

Patty I think that is what Dr.O. was getting at and I guess would be labeled EMS rather than IR, I always wondered what the difference was

I think the lab suggested testing for CD since his insulin was VERY high and I take it >90 is there cut off point for this suggestion. It doesn't Mean they HAVE cushings disease just that it is a possibility, because of the reasons stated above and may be worth looking in to.

That's my take on it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 5:22 pm:

I'll quit giving a day by day on Sam now that he seems "out of the woods" Another good day for Sam he is moving around much more and looks a little more comfortable on his turns.

The one thing I can't quite figure out is to whether to keep him on bute or not. I have been giving him one gram at night. The front pulses are pretty quiet, those darn back ones stay bounding tho. I guess I will continue with the one gram until they come down or go away.. if they ever do

Oddly enough his diarrhea seems to be gone for good.. I hope. Don't know for sure what caused that, but 3 days without it now!

His water consumption is still lower than I prefer, about 2 gals Max. in 24 hrs sometimes less.

Feeding soaked hay has really slowed down how fast he eats. He is really talking a lot which is good, because he has a "big mouth" It will be an empty day when I'm not greeted with that big whinny whenever the door opens or he sees me.

P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 7:23 pm:

I wanted to share this hoping it will give you all with penned up horses a giggle for the night. I'm still laughing and it shows Sam is feeling much better.

We had our freezing rain, and it is an ice skating rink out there, so Hank and Flash are locked in the lean-to paddock area next to Sam. Pipe gates separate them. I gave them their pellets and Sam acted as if he was starved. When they get done I feed the other 2 by throwing hay around the back wall of the lean-to. Got theirs thrown around and went back to get Sams hay, he was talking up a storm. Threw his soaked hay in and he looked at me like that is not what I want.(TOO BAD EAT IT)

Went to get water to top his bucket off and he was just nickering like crazy to Hank. When I turned the corner I could see Hank was giving him some of his hay.

Sam would nicker at him Hank would stick his head sideways through the gate.. with hay hanging out of his mouth and Sam would take it out of his mouth!

Well Hank isn't no fool when it comes to food so he quit ans. Sam's nicker. Of course Hank isn't no dainty eater either, he has to throw it with his head, paw it, ect.

Sam stood as close as he could to Hank next to the gate and there went the hay flying with one of his head roots right in to Sams pen I think Sam was getting more hay than Hank and he was VERY happy about it Poor Sam, I left him have what Hank had tossed to him and moved all the hay far away from his pen, at least a head toss away anyway.

They are entertaining if nothing else! And a bit conniving I think.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 7:44 pm:

They're a lot like little kids when they get too much time on their hands - not to be trusted and thinking up ways to cause trouble!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 - 8:33 pm:

Too funny!
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 12:32 am:

They are endlessly entertaining aren't they? Sometimes a little TOO entertaining! LOL!
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 10:49 am:

Great story Diane =) I bet Sam was pleased with himself getting away with something!

Glad to hear he is feeling better!!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 2:16 pm:

Hope Sam continues to improve and cause some mischief Diane!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 - 6:38 pm:

Dr.O how much weight should we put on a raised digital pulse as the horse is recovering from founder?

I feel Sams every day and they remain elevated.. the back more so, the fronts come and go.
Every day now he is moving better, turns look much less painful almost normal

He really seems to be on the mend... Yet the Dp's remain... no heat in any hoof.

I have been giving him one gram of bute at night only because they remain elevated... sometimes quite elevated.. sometimes not.

I decided to check Hanks and Flashes tonight and honestly their DP's are just about the same as Sam's Neither one of them is even a tiny bit sore, however they have been locked in because of ice.. does / can inactivity raise the DP??

Flash very rarely has a raised DP I think I have detected them on her twice..with no reason to accompany them. I don't check her often unless I am comparing everyones like tonight.

I'd like to get Sam off the bute, the only reason I have been giving him some is because of the raised DP, but they don't seem to be coinciding with the degree of lameness at this time.

With Hanks and Flashes being elevated also, especially Flashes it makes me wonder if it is necessary.

Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 12:54 pm:

I put much less emphasis on the DP's as I would how painful the horse is.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 8:31 pm:

Diane,

Don't know how to relate this to Sam's case exactly, but Perry is now 16 days into his laminitis in the front feet and he has what my Vet calls "faint" pulses, which he expects to remain this way for at least another two weeks.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:17 pm:

Thanks Vicki, DP's have always confounded me.. with Hank it usually means something is up, or about to happen. So I have officially become a digital pulse freak.

I did not bute him last night and he continues to improve so for now he can stay off it and I'll see what happens.. his pulses remained the same without it.

The good/bad news is he is starting to feel too good. I can tell his hooves still hurt ( MUCH improved tho) but he decided to show his arab side tonight with tail in the air and trotting in place (in his stall on soft shavings) I said that a boy rip up any attachment you may have grown...sigh.

Glad he is feeling better, but don't do that!!!

I've been studying tonight and have decided to work a tiny bit on his hooves, they need it soo bad.. but they do scare the crap out of me.. keep fingers crossed I help and don't hinder!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 22, 2010 - 9:34 pm:

Yes, When they show their spunky Arab side they sure can inadvertently cause some more pain afterward.

Hope that things will continue to improve for Sam.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 7:18 am:

Diane,

Tango's DP's go up if he starts getting any flare it seems. Gem on the other hand, has elevated DP's if she's on hard or irregular ground after I trim her. I believe she still has thinner soles.

You could try beveling while leaving some wall height, then take some wall height down, and re bevel after a few days maybe?

A balancing act..my new (borrowed) motto for trimming; although I still believe "bevel bevel bevel!" ;-)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 - 7:43 am:

I am going to see if I can get some decent pics of Sams hoof, I have an idea what I would like to do and would like any input I can get... which may be hard since I don't have x-rays. I think he is at a point that SMALL changes would benefit him and should be ok.

I need a different rasp, the travelers rasp is getting dull.. but will do until I get something different.. Think I will try that one rasp with the handle and is shorter. Going to order that this weekend. I do like the travelers rasp very much.. think I'll get another to have on hand.

I'm debating having the farrier, maybe if I tell him no nippers like Hank it would work. He does a pretty good job with the rasp...but is a little too enthusiastic with those nippers!

Sams hoof is much uglier, or at least fragile anyway than Hanks...sigh
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 7:16 pm:

Sam has been off bute now for 4 days and continues to improve. He is moving around his "stall" in a normal manner.

ALL pulses are gone!!! The back ones disappeared today..finally..hope they stay away. The fronts have been pretty quiet for awhile now. The diarrhea has not returned.

He is still on $1000 worth of bedding and counting, no pads or boots. When I give his stall a thorough cleaning I put him on the other side of the lean-to and he walks good in there also(not perfect, but good). His turns are improving greatly.

His hooves look very bad, I wanted to take a picture of his sole and ask Dr.O. a question. Experience has told me when I take pics of Hanks hoof the flash scares the crap out of Sam, Hank could care less. It is a dreary, snowy, windy day so I took a picture of his bedding by him first to see his reaction to the flash... well he took off like a bolt of lightning... so no pics until the sun shines... I'm learning how to not get killed around these animals slowly but surely.

You can see the significant founder line up by his coronet band.. the soles/WL are really bruised. All in all I think he is on the road to recovery, his hooves will be the next thing I tackle, but boy they look scary underneath. I'll get pics when the sun shines again..if it ever does!

Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Jan 25, 2010 - 7:27 pm:

Glad Sam has stabilized Diane. I'm back from Nevada--delays = home at 5 am this morning... We have had nothing but rain, thaw, slush, sleet, ice around here. Mine have been cooped up in their drylots/stalls for over two weeks. They seem to stay inside by choice with the crappy weather.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 1:19 pm:

Great news, Diane.

According to what my Vet told me, you may see some signs of blood inside Sam's feet when future trimmings are done.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 3:43 pm:

Vicki I have seen the blood in the WL on Hanks hoof from previous bouts of founder/laminitis. I went back through Hanks pictures after his worse case of founder and his WL didn't look like Sams. It was VERY stretched but wasn't this purple color. Before we touch his hoof whether it be farrier or me I would like to know Dr.O.'s opinion of it.

Dr.O. Sam had a tiny bit of a stretched WL before this, but now it is really stretched AND purple, his walls on the bottom even have bruising on them and are red where there is white pigmentation... I've never seen that on him before either. I got a couple pics with the flash turned off.

Questions.. with the WL as purple and angry looking as it is should it be left alone for awhile?? How would you go about tackling a hoof like this once the horse isn't sore anymore??

The WL concerns me more than anything, I have never seen one that color before..it isn't dirt..it is red/purple.



Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 4:59 pm:

Well Diane, I think these photos answer part of the "why" question. With that very long toe and underrun heels, the pull on the laminae would be significant and when the blood supply became compromised, it was too much. Has your farrier been trimming him on a regular schedule?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 5:20 pm:

Julie, Sam is on the same schedule as Hank he is trimmed every 6 weeks like clockwork. He was trimmed around the 12th of Dec. I think, I haven't had the farrier since, because Sam was foundering and I am maintaining Hank. I am NOT happy with these geldings hooves and that is why I am trying to learn to do it myself, I HAVE too.... don't really want to.

This mess of Sams scares me tho, I am sure I don't have the skill level for it, tho Hanks hoof is teaching me alot, maybe I can do it. His back hooves are WORSE then his fronts if you can imagine that.!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 6:06 pm:

Diane,

As Lance was recuperating in 2008, from his nearly life-ending illness, he had purple spotting on the bottoms of his black soles -- especially in the back, which was where his legs were swollen for so long.

My farrier said that the sickness went to Lance's feet.

I was very concerned that Lance might just shed his entire hoof on that one back leg but it never happened.

Sometimes things can look so very scary but turn out just fine in the end. Horses seem to have a great deal of recuperative powers if given the tools to heal.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 - 7:23 pm:

Diane - I am so happy to hear that Sam is improving. Hope that he continues on the path to wellness!!
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 7:09 pm:

Dr.O. thank you for the update on the article regarding trimming and treatment..answers a lot of questions. Yesterday I rolled his toe where I have the red marks, I didn't get very aggressive because I wasn't sure it would help or make him worse, at this point his wall is lower at the point of the toe than the WL. Wasn't real sure even tho this is a bad bond it wasn't supporting something, especially since he just got over his terrible soreness.

I think it actually helped him, his fronts appear to be way less painful and he is moving pretty well..so I am going to slowly keep rolling his toe until I get it where I think it should be. I haven't done anything to the rears...which are a a even bigger mess IMHO and they still appear to be a little sore. I'd love to just have the farrier do it, but now I see what he was doing wrong with Hank all that time, and why Hank was always sore. He was always dubbing Hanks toe off NOT rolling it, leaving him with absolutely no support at the toe. He was always on his sole.

So I guess for now I will see what I can do with Sam.

Here's what I did yesterday, left the walls and heels alone for now. I guess that is right from the descriptions in the article.

What would you charge to come to Il. and help fix this??? We have Lovely weather! It overwhelms me a bit.

Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 11:49 am:

Diane, I must say that I really admire how you have taken on the job of seeing that your horses' hooves will be cared for properly.

You are beginning to sound like a real professional!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 7:08 pm:

Thanks Vicki, unfortunately I really don't want to tackle this, I may take the easy way out and try a WW shoe with the equipak, that helped Hank tremendously, and the farrier did it. It is too cold, and my skill levels are very low. I don't know if I can do it correctly
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 6:45 am:

Dr.O. In your opinion when can a horse like Sam begin hand walking or turnout on soft ground in a small pen?

Turn out isn't going to happen here for awhile, the ground is much too hard, but I may be able to hand walk him a little with his boots on in the yard, which still has some soft snow. He is moving around well in his stall, but it is pretty small with constant circles.

It is close to 6 weeks since onset, about 2 weeks of "soundness" on soft ground in his stall. No heat in hooves, DP's remain gone in fronts, backs still come and go. Well over a week(closer to 2 I think) since he has had any bute.

Thanks
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 7:11 am:

BTW I was reading the vets meter yesterday and he came out and said to come in and tell him how Sam was doing. I told him I was optimistic at this point that he was going to recover

I told him I was rockering his toe SLOWLY, soaking his hay, and keeping him on $2000 now worth of bedding. He was off bute and moving well in his stall.

He pulled out the blood work to show me it, I told him I picked up a copy already

He told me I should be keeping Sam on bute, told him I didn't think he needed it anymore he doesn't seem painful, but if he does I will give him some. He still thinks all I can do is maintain him in this condition, I told him no I was going to fix him other than his CD of course. He laughed and said well if anyone can you can He is very used to his clients not participating in treatment and it does frustrate him.

I told him Sams hooves desperately need something done, but didn't know if I was up to the task, (actually I don't think I am). He said the farrier has been leaving everyone of his clients toes way to long he has noticed, and thought I had been doing a pretty good job with Hanks and should give Sam a shot

I asked him what he thought brought this on and he said he really don't know, but he didn't think it was anything I did, or fed especially since Hank has remained sound. Guess I'll never know for sure.

Dr.O., Julie is right you need video tutorials on how to trim... I'll be the first to sign up!!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 7:32 am:

Did you get that "REAL RASP" yet??

You will look back a year from now, and you will have Sam in as good of shape, hoof wise, as Hank. I have complete confidence in you!

Be Brave Grasshoppper, ;-)

BTW, I only believe in Bute for around 3 days, then it's better in most cases to let the horse decide how much he's comfortable moving IMHO.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 7:47 am:

No I haven't got it ordered yet. The guy that helps me is off for a week and I have been working 10 hrs. in this cold, so haven't even paid much attention to the horses (which may be good) Hanks sheath is swollen again, I wish I could get him out of the paddock!

I AM going to get it ordered tonight and give Sam a try I guess, Hank didn't scare me as much as Sam since he hasn't been lame for quite awhile. Their hooves are quite similar as far as the problems. Hanks look much better than Sams now tho! I really lack confidence with him which is not good, but maybe once I get going I will gain some if I don't make him sore.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 7:52 am:

PS the way Anna's horse is trimmed in her thrush thread is pretty much what my farrier did to Hank and always made him sore... and what he would do to Sam, which would be detrimental at this time I think... so I guess I am going to be the farrier, if I think about it, the farrier will sore him up anyway, and hopefully I won't!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 9:24 am:

Diane,

Remember, it wasn't so long ago that your were deathly afraid to deal with Hank too, and now look at him. You should have a really good sense of accomplishment. You will be fine with Sam too because you have patience and because you do this the right way a little bit at a time.

I recently had a conversation with a guy who manufactures hoof boots, nice guy, but I am not sure he understood the combination of stimulus( movement) versus wear and couldn't understand why I would want a removable, very light boot that I would only use when I thought the wear from the racetrack was being to excessive and needed some extra protection during those times.

To me, the little tweaks we do trimming wise when our horses are barefoot should mimic what they would do on their own in an optimum environment. Keeping horses booted 24/7 or needing to keep boots on because the installation/removal process is cumbersome( glue-ons) does not IMO help a horses feet heal.

Most trimmers/farriers are on set schedules with the horses they do and most people are so conditioned to putting their horses on a schedule that they do not realize that this type of schedule may be detrimental to their horses as too many changes are done, too quickly. It is not necessarily that the trimmer/farrier has done a bad job, its just too much to quickly, but he/she realizes that owners want bang for their buck and that they will not be back for 6-8 weeks( sometimes more).

As this relates to Sam and Hank, I think as much as you do not want to deal with Sam's feet, this is exactly what you need to do, pretty soon you will not need your farrier at all because everyone will be sound and happy.

I will make a prediction, I say it takes you less time to get Sam's feet corrected then it did for Hank. Your learning curve will be much shorter because you have already addressed a lot of the major issues as you learned on Hank.

Even your vet has given you kudos and so do I.

Rachelle
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 9:42 am:

Diane - I admire how well you have done with Hank. So, some of the learning curve is already behind you. I know you will be super conservative with Sam, making very small changes frequently.

Best of luck,
Lilo

(I wish I had your kind of courage - would save me some money. Some of my neighbors have started trimming their own horses, with guidance from our natural hoofcare trimmer)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 12:07 pm:

Rachelle,

I just shudder now thinking of my previous trimming schedule; egads, in my 20's I bet some years my horses got trimmed 4X a year only. (no money, but they got rode more, so I don't remember cracks and really long hoofs!) And up til I started trimming myself, 8 weeks was normal, with 12-14 weeks between trims in the winter.

Now I panic if it's been 4 weeks!!!!

Diane,

You have a big heart, and great desire for your horses to be healthy in all parts of their lives. That driving force alone is going to be what keeps you trying and trying again until you are 110% confident to pick up the rasp and knife.

You are much farther along than you give yourself credit for. You should be keeping a good log of where Hank was, and where he is now, hoof wise. If that isn't encouragement, I don't know what is.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 5:47 pm:

Diane, when to allow a horse with laminitis back out to exercise freely is a complicated question I would not answer in a horse that I have not examined. To read about the issues that go into answering this question and for some general recommendations check out the After the Pain Has Gone subtopic of the Overview article.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 6:43 pm:

Dr.O. I'm not talking about turn out or free exercise, the ground is way too hard for that. I would like to hand walk him a little bit when time allows, if he handles it well I will add a small amount of time each day. I guess I'll try and see what happens.

I know when I started hand walking Hank when he foundered he seemed to improve quicker.(once he was sound on soft ground)

Thanks for your vote of confidence guys, we'll see how it goes. After I saw Anna's pictures it did remind me of how the farrier trimmed Hank and left him on his soles... I don't want to relive that multiple year saga.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:14 am:

We deal with the transition stages also in the article also Diane, including hand walking.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 2:16 pm:

WEll Sam got to come out of his pen for a handwalk, boy he even fooled me how well he was moving. Considering he was literally glued to the ground not long ago.

Hubby had just got back from feeding the cows and said WOW he is moving good, I thought he was going to get "the needle in his neck a few weeks ago"(euthed) in red neck terms. I said so did Dan (the vet).

I could hardly contain Sam he was so happy to move again. I tried to take a video of him and lead him at the same time..they aren't great, but you can see his turns look good, and he is moving well and enthusiastically...no bute for around 2 weeks Hooves still need a major over hauling.. I am very slowly rockering his toe and beveling a little. I can't express how happy this makes me, thanks for all your help and support! I should send these videos to my vet!
https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100130SamAndHankHoof#5432610973429285282

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100130SamAndHankHoof#5432611354247330098
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 4:55 pm:

Wow! That's a lot of progress from where Sam was before! Its hard to tell much about his stride but he certainly looks perky and ready to move around without hesitation.

I saw slight bleeding when Suzy was trimmed too, although not as much discoloration as you have on Sam. If you think about what happens to our own fingernails when injured, they turn red, purple yellow, brown and black. In short, they look quite frightening, and yet as long as the nail bed is okay they recover with time and protection.

I admire you working on your horse's feet too. All the more so because of your combination of reluctance yet determination to see to their needs. Diane, if I am ever down and out, I want you in my corner!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 7:04 pm:

Thanks Jo Ann his stride is normal.

On a very tight turn he is still a little off.

Today when I cleaned his stall and the lean-to I left him on Hank and Flashes side to move around a little, I have been doing that for a few days and he likes stretching his legs a little. I give him a small piece of hay to keep him occupied.

Take a wheel barrow out dump, close the gate when I come back in takes 10 seconds. I was dumping the second load and saw him looking at the gate... I only open it wide enough to get the wheel barrow thru. I yelled SAM don't you dare, I took off running to get to the gate and he took off to beat me to it and he did! He long trotted out of there like nobodies business. Thankfully he still had his boots and pads on from our handwalk. I could just see Dr.O. shaking his head . He headed right for the other horses and joined them in their hay.. I left him. After all that effort I figured standing out there with the herd having some hay wouldn't kill him. It didn't, he was fine at supper tonight (back in his stall!) He is recovering way faster than I thought he would I sure would like to get him in a little bigger area, he has to take tight turns in his stall. If we get our predicted snow Mon. I may leave him in a little bigger area, I think he is ready.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 8:51 pm:

This is great news, Diane!

How long ago was it that he presented with the laminitis?
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:01 pm:

Diane I'm so happy Sam is feeling good enough to be bad =)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:58 pm:

Thanks I am very happy myself! Vicki I think he is probably about 5 weeks from onset, about 3 weeks from being glued to the ground.

I suspect Whatever caused that diarrhea was part of his problem, once that cleared up for good he started recovering quickly. As I said on your thread this was an odd case in every aspect. I have never heard such a grumbling stomach on a horse, it never quit. How he just turned into a Zombie and became glued to the ground, which was after I stalled him and put him on the $1000 worth of bedding. How his back end almost seemed paralyzed. Didn't stretch at all when he peed. terrible diarrhea, totally zoned out to the world. I still wonder if he didn't get into something. Wonder if he did it would have showed in his blood work, which wasn't done until about a month after onset Dr.O. do you know?

I can say it now, deep down I thought he was done for myself at that stage and so did hubby. He was even happy to see Sam moving so well today. A couple weeks ago he was pushing up the manure pile and looked at Sam in his stall and said he isn't going to get better is he..that's when he was a zombie glued to the ground. I said I don't know.. but I hope so. Thankfully he proved the nay sayers wrong!
Member:
frances

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 6:50 am:

It's amazing to see Sam striding out like a young lad! Congratulations - your tenacity and skill have really paid off.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 8:41 am:

Thanks LL I want to add one more strange symptom he had in case any of this rings a bell with anyone.

In the first video I showed you guys when he was walking "funny" slow. That was 1/13. I had put his halter on and it didn't fit, I could not snap the throat latch no matter how hard I tried. At that time I figured it was all his hair, tho I found it strange, wrote it off, never had a problem getting his halter on hair or not before.

Yesterday it slipped right on with room to spare. They are not shedding anything yet. I think his head was swollen also at the time. I thought it looked like it was, but you know how you start imagining things.

Here's a still of that video I circled where his throat latch was hanging down because I couldn't snap it. If you look at yesterdays video it is snapped and fits him well, there were no adjustments made to the halter.

Dr.O. I am not trying to find an excuse for this, but all of his symptoms were so strange and out of the ordinary. I would like to piece this puzzle together. The only thing that I am aware of that he could have gotten into is black locust pods, or limestone...at the time this happened is when I posted about that deep hole they were licking in the limestone by the fence line.

Member:
cheryl

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:00 am:

What are the presenting symptoms for black locust poisoning? If I were to pick a cause for Sam's problems it would be the seed pods. Would be really good to know so you can prevent it from happening again. So glad he is coming out of this - there were a few times I was afraid to read new messages.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 9:40 am:

Diane - good news! Go, Sam! I think, whether or not they had anything to do with this, black locust is something to definitely keep away from the horses.
Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 11:32 am:

OH and when I put his halter on when his head seemed swollen he would continually shake his head in his stall. He never shakes his head with the halter on. I found that odd too, I thought maybe it was because the throat latch was hanging and making him do that, so I tied it up and he still did it.

Yesterday for an experiment I undid the throat latch when I put him back in his stall and left the halter on..no head shaking.

Cheryl, I think their is a description of symptoms in the poisonous plants article. I googled it a few times and some mention laminitis too. No swollen heads tho! I think he fell down in the paddock when I found him lying in the snow
after onset of symptoms and before I stalled him. The vet even commented on the body print there. They NEVER lie down there NEVER. It was hard packed snow on a slope, right next to the bedded lean-to...where they do lie down. He had been there for quite awhile by the impression in the snow. I wonder if he bumped his head on something when he was acting "neurological". I really have seen enough cases of founder to know this was NOT a founder walk of any sort.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 7:05 pm:

I sure hope Sam isn't glued to the ground tomorrow again.

I decided to work on his flares a little, God help me.

They look better, tomorrow will tell the tale, I suppose. Dr.O. does this look OK, considering he just got over an acute founder?

The first is before I did anything, the second today.


Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:16 pm:

Diane --

Sam's feet sure look better for what you did.

I have to think and hope that shortening the toes will yield good results.

It does not look as though you did anything significant with the sole?
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 10:47 pm:

After reading the Redden info and watching his video four times...is it appropriate to scoop out Sam's quarters and shoot for the four pt trim? Or is that way too aggressive for a recently foundered horse? (I probably have too much info and too little comprehension...)

I watched Redden (sp? it's getting late) apply a pad to the sole to provide cushion. He used vinyl gutter guard mesh to support the pad as it set up. Pretty cool to watch. His website was informative.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 6:04 am:

Vicki Z. No I did not touch any sole! Just rasped the flares back a little and beveled the walls...very conservative.

Vicki I watched the Redden founder video too. Sam doesn't need anything that drastic I don't think (hope).

I don't think he scoops the quarters...he relieves them(unloads them)...there is a difference. At this point anyway, all I am going to do is relieve the toe flare. Sam is not ready for a 4 point trim, he needs all the sole and wall he has at this point I'm pretty sure.

Hope he is OK this morning

Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:26 am:

Diane,

I think of scooping and relieving them as the same thing. End result = not touching the ground until impact when the hoof flexes.

(why oh why can't every one use the same terms? Hoof trimming terms, like the Eskimos have so many different names for snow...geesh!)

Vicki,

It seems that different folks have different ideas (ya think?!) on "reading" a hoof, and what is appropriate to do with what they have to work with. For example I have read that a flatter hoof should not have "scooped/relieved" quarters because the hoof needs more support or something along those lines.

And videos showing just "how to trim" without additional knowledge can be dangerous...again, my opinion, based on my experience of been there, done that!

Diane, love the last picture btw, walls look even, beveling looks good. Evenness all around can be a challenge sometimes; you are doing great.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:05 am:

Angie,
And look where you are now, even making mistakes your horses are a whole lot better then they were and in the process you learned a thing( many things) or two and taught others along the way. We learn more from our mistakes then what we do right. When we do something right that just proves we knew how to do it. Correcting mistakes is the actual learning part.

Also, it depends on the cause of the flat feet as to whether or not to relieve the quarters and how much. If left to their own devices, horses will do to their feet what the environment they are in tells them to to. We just need to know enough to listen to them.

Diane,

You did a superb job on Sam's feet, you have learned well. Even if he is a tad sore(not) the foot looks much better. Just him not having to deal with the uneven wall might make him feel better.

As far as the Redden video, I pulled the plug on my speakers a few weeks ago, I didn't have enough room for my phone plug, the speaker electrical plug was too big for the space I had available on the surge protector. So all I had was video, so I watched instead of listened, maybe that was a good thing, since I didn't hear any new terms to distract me from what I was watching.

I've gotten to the point where I can weed out the different terminology because I understand that everyone may use different words but in general they are mostly talking about the same thing. And in the end its the horse that benefits( in most cases)

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:07 am:

LOL see I think of removing sole at the quarters as "scooping"

OMG I just got in from feeding and Sam looks EXCELLENT!! his turns were even good! I was smiling from ear to ear while I was out there. He was pacing like crazy and looked better than he has in mos.

Thanks!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:14 am:

BTW BIG SIGH OF RELIEF...and thanks for all the Hank tutorials...will go along way in helping Sam I think.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:37 am:

Angie, I find it problematic also that there are so many different "vocabulary" terms and different verbs used to describe the hoof, trimming, farrier work, etc.--used by professionals and lay people.

I "assumed" that scoop, relieve, drag out, rasp down/out, etc. all meant to lower the quarter area of the wall "lower" (how much is the art/science?) than the four pillars.

There is a difference that still eludes me amongst: rolling a toe, beveling a toe, rockering a toe, pushing the break over back, squaring a toe, etc. And the difference(s) would seem to be monumental to me given that the waterline, white (yellow according to Redden's vocabulary preference...) line, toe sole/callous, and sensitive "areas" close by (underneath! horn and sole)...are all involved. I would love to see pictures/diagrams of all of the above. Labeled. With clear boundary lines drawn on the pictures/diagrams--and before and after pictures...But then again I'm asking for an art/craft to be reduced to a consistent, uniform description/procedure and that isn't going to happen. Too many trade secrets revealed might ruin more than a few practices! It's a wonder any horse is sound. Poor beasts; we torture them.

And of course the biggest mysteries (art/science) are when to apply any of the above and to what kind of foot... after I understand what any of the above actually ARE. (Pulling hair out icon needed here.)

No wonder I relied too heavily on my "professional" farrier and vet. I have no degrees and no certification and it appears, not a whole lot of understanding of the situation, needs, pathology, etc. to even ASK the right questions let alone REQUEST anything. I thought I was being thorough 18 months ago when I researched farrier certification programs and determined which program was the most rigorous and then looked for a certified journeyman from that association and then looked for years of experience and types of horses serviced in the practice. Sheesh. I'm not kidding when I say it would be easier for me to pick a surgeon to perform a facelift on my aging face! That medical practice is much more regulated, researched, and studied...than the farrier industry.

And FYI "Eskimo" is considered a slur by many. "Inuit" is the correct term these days of politically correct terminology. I always found the word Eskimo fun to say. Seems like a happy word to me, if there is such a thing as a happy word. Wonder what it translates to mean in their language? I'll have to Google that...I am a fountain of unrelated, useless information.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:42 am:

Diane, we cross posted. Soooooooooo glad to hear Sam is moving much better. Yay for you and him.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 9:25 am:

Diane,

Just came in from feeding, poor horses are walking like on eggshells it is so icy and rough. Of course can't look at mine without looking at hoofs, and thinking of Hank, and now Sam! I was grinning ear to ear, cheering "Yay Sam, wa-hoo for Diane" after reading he's doing so well.

And it's only Monday!

Rachelle,

Thank you, as always you put so much into words. We all have low spells when we 2nd guess ourselves, and like with mistakes, I think the low spells of self doubt "checks" us so we step back and re-think our course of action. And increases our understanding then.

OH MY, Vicki,

Did I insult a group of people?!?!

I officially apologize to any Inuit HA members.

Good Grief!

As for terms, I think rolling, beveling, and mustang roll all mean the same.

I think rockering means pushing the break over back! And it's more being done than beveling. Beveling is more maintenance to my mind, yet with a steeper bevel, you get quicker results if rehabbing.

Now that I've cleared the confusion, ha ha ha!

As for farrier certification, it's helpful, but WHAT (program), WHERE, and taught by WHOM? Following whose teachings, based on what science?

I could print out a nice little ol' certification and trim your horses, not!

Face lift surgeon? Hmmmmm...nowadays, I don't feel any more comfortable with a hoof guy/gal touching my horses hoofs than I would a surgeon taking a knife to my face! And my aging face could use some help too, lol!!

The initial learning of anything new is gathering information. Then we learn what questions to ask.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 6:57 pm:

Angie I don't know how or WHY, but Hank is trotting on that stuff pretty comfortably. He came in for supper tonight trotting on that rough, peaked, hard stuff... his hoof is coming along but has a ways to go..quite amazing.

Sam looked great tonight too...it would be very nice to have a quiet, healthy horse week!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:13 pm:

Vicki, there are many different methods, horses have individual hooves that IMO can't be put into a certain "mold" of a trim, everything has to be considered.. pathologies, history, genetics, sole thickness ect. ect. BUT if you have the basic idea(method) you can add your own "twist" for the individual horse, or at least tell the farrier/trimmer what you think needs to be done...some can't handle that
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:18 pm:

Diane,

Amen, to a healthy horseweek! From your mouth to God's ear as my mom used to say. You had quite enough.

Rachelle
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 8:08 am:

Diane, "posterior paralysis" like you might see with black locust is not a stiff legged walk but seen as a weakness and inability to stand.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 8:22 am:

Thanks Dr.O. before I stalled Sam that is what he looked like. It appeared he had fallen right where he stood in the paddock, he was leaning against the lean-to wall to stay upright...after that is when he became glued to the ground. He was not walking stiff legged at the time..just very slow or not at all, his back end appeared to not to follow the front, that was when I had the vet out and he called it backend paralysis... after that I stalled him . No doubt he foundered, but something else was at play too I think. He has never done "the typical" founder walk. None I have ever seen anyway
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 1:03 am:

Wow Diane, His hoof looks so much better! Way to go girl!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 6:43 am:

Thanks Jo Ann

We had a couple inches of snow Sun. night, so Sam got to be turned out for a few hours in the dry lot yesterday...he did well! We're getting there
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:48 am:

Go Diane, go Sam!!! Here is hoping there won't be any setbacks. Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 9:39 pm:

Sam got to go out again for a few hrs. he looks perfectly normal on the snow, if he crosses a hard spot it looks like his RF short steps a little, the other 3 look very good. So I think he is going to be able to go out every day for a few hours and work up to at least the daytime hrs. as long as the ground isn't a frozen jagged mess. He didn't seem worse from his time out yesterday. His pulses WERE up, so I checked the other 2 and Hanks were actually worse than Sam's and the mares about the same as Sam's...both of them are very sound...so don't know if I should make something of them or not no heat in any hoof. I almost gave his a gram of bute because of the pulses, but decided that wasn't enough of a reason and will see what he looks like tomorrow, I have a feeling he will be just fine. I have been letting the bedding in his stall get a little thinner only $500 worth in there now and he moves great, even on the corners.. I hope I am not making a mistake doing this, but I feel he is ready. I guess there is no way to know but try I am going to remove a tiny bit more flare this weekend I think. Definitely need to do something to the rears...they confuse me a little more so have to think about it!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 8:43 am:

Diane,

Last night I tweaked 3 of the 4 horses. Basically redid the bevel, checked for levelness, bars.

Thinking of Redden's video that initially gave me a heart attack, ;-), I took a chance and did something different with Tango. I rasped flat across the bottom at the toe, and yup, took a bit of sole doing that. (GASP!!) I rasped until I saw the yellow line, and a few black dots as Redden said.

Sigh of relief this morning, he is walking just fine!

What I am thinking is now he was ready for that, and it will help tighten his flares quicker. I THINK maybe Sam would benefit from the same treatment. Because I THINK I have been doing like you are doing, being very careful just beveling, and perhaps not doing enough from underneath. I THINK I bevel more than you (big girl rasp ya know, lol!)

What I noticed is I missed Willow having very wide yellow line; not so much flares, but that is a flare, just not seeing the valley we associate with flares if that makes sense.

Remember though I just beveled and backed Tango's hoofs for about 6 months, and that did toughen his sole at the toe.

Just my observations, don't know if it applies to Sam or not.

I know, I know, pictures would be so helpful, I am just swamped with dealing with "crap" lately and don't have it in me to take pictures, resize and upload but I'll try to find some "before" so you can judge and compare.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 10:10 am:

I read everything about hooves and trimming, and admire all of you who are brave enough to take it on to work on their horses' feet.

I pay to get my horses hooves done and they are barefoot and doing well. Just wanted to mention after my trimmer takes of excess toe etc, she always finishes by rasping the bottom of the feet flat across, then bevels the outside of the hoof. Seems to work. She never seems to have to trim the bars, and she does not mess with the sole and frog unless the frog is shedding.

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:24 pm:

This whole thing with Sam is rather strange, he has gone from 3/4th's dead, back to normal in a few weeks. He went on turn out again when I got home and trotted out to the pasture like there was never anything wrong with him. The ground was pretty hard too (no boots)! Sat. when I can keep an eye on him I am going to try all day turnout with him. On tight corners, on hard ground he still does not turn perfect.. that is the only thing I can spot wrong with him. On soft ground he turns fine. Hank is the same way on hard ground tight corners look slightly gimpy.

Angie I think that trim would suit Hank very well, Sam not yet... but soon.

I had a country route today, there are a lot of farms with backyard horses like ours..I watched today to see how other horses were moving on this stuff and let me tell you even Sam looks pretty good compared to MOST I saw! From what I could see anyway most of them had decent looking hooves. This jagged frozen ground is a nightmare on most horses hooves I think.

Lilo you are lucky you have a good trimmer, trimming my own horses isn't really something I want to do. My friend with Leukemia wants me to take her arab gelding for her..her bone marrow transplant failed, but she did have another hopefully it will work. He is a young green broke horse, that would be 4 horses to trim if I decide to take him...which I'm sure I will if that is what she decides she really wants. I told her I wasn't responsible if his hooves fall off here tho!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:55 pm:

Diane - yes I am lucky to have this neighbor for a trimmer. I am sorry to hear about your friend - hoping sincerely that the second bone marrow transplant will work.
Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 3:46 pm:

Diane,

I too hope for the best for your friend with the second transplant.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 5:10 pm:

Sam's turnout icy hard ground.

Maybe I am a miracle trimmer

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20100205SamTurnout#5434884048404971250
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 - 7:40 am:

Dr.O. a few questions if I may, I'm still trying to figure this out... IF Sam was foundered as bad as he appeared to be foundering a few weeks ago he wouldn't be moving this well already would he? BTW that wasn't a head bob after his "jump" out it was a glad to be out throw of the head. I know it took mos, before Hank would consider doing what Sam did in the video, even with boots on.

Here are a few questions in my head that maybe you can give me some insight into.

COULD CD turn him into a zombie glued to the ground as it's own entity?

Would having a meal 3 hrs. before the blood test, being in terrible pain, and completely nerved out have caused his Insulin to read higher than it actually was? Does that add a lot to the numbers?

Does what I described above sound like hind end paralysis?

IF Black Locust caused this would anything have shown in his blood work that was off because of it? (his blood work was about 3 weeks after onset)

Do you think founder would have caused all these symptoms by itself? I do want to try to figure this out if possible, mainly so it never happens again.

These are the symptoms as he progressed as I remember them.

1. walking slowly (not a founder walk) but definitely looked like his hooves hurt.. no pulses or heat. Acting slightly depressed.

2. Found laying in the paddock like he collapsed there, was there quite awhile from the looks of it, frost on one side of him, big dent in the snow.

3. Acted like he couldn't chew correctly to eat, leaning against wall in lean to hold himself up. Head looked swollen and eyes looked "weird"

4. explosive diarrhea, VERY loud stomach sounds...could literally hear them easily from 15 ft. away. never stopped.

5. Vet came out, didn't really give him a thorough exam...just checked pulses and said he was foundering and had back end paralysis..which was strange and we need to keep an eye on. Asked why resp was so high and he said it was because he was there...it was high before he came. he didn't check HR or anything else. I thought his DP's felt "thready" something was strange about them!

7. Locked him in stall.. explosive diarrhea continued, along with LOUD gut sounds. Turned into zombie.. didn't react to stimulus..didn't stretch out to pee, pooped while he was lying down. head still looked swollen to me, and his eye looked "weird" if I waved my hand in front of them he didn't even blink. Appetite waned. Took maybe 5 painful steps a day...not in the founder stance...just couldn't move. He remained like this for about a week and I really thought he was "done for" at that point as did vet and hubby.

He was on bute...banamine or equioxx at pretty high doses since onset. Bute/equioxx didn't seem to provide relief..banamine seemed to help a tiny bit. Wrapping or padding hooves didn't help, soft bedding didn't help.. in the first week when he was a "zombie" Actually the boots with padding didn't ever seem to help nor styrofoam. the kneeling pad cut up seemed to help a little...but not sure if that was just coincidence at the time. He was just starting to snap out of it a little.

Once the diarrhea and loud stomach subsided he seemed to start recovering quickly.

He did founder I guess, based on the looks of his hooves and DP's, never the "founder walk" just slow and unsteady. Like the video I posted in the beginning....he was actually moving good in that one comparatively speaking.

Can you help me piece this together? It was one of the scariest horse things I've encountered. I've dealt with founder, colic ect. but nothing quite like this before.

I would appreciate ANY insight Thanks
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:21 am:

Diane, did Sam eat a lot of black locust before getting sick?
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 9:09 am:

Dr.O. I have no way of knowing for sure, if I knew he was eating a lot of them I would have locked them off the pasture. It was kind of a freak weather thing that landed them in the pasture. Normally I clean them up every year OR electric fence off that part of the pasture.

This year they didn't fall off in Nov. like they usually do...I WAS watching. Then we had snow and I figured I was ok and couldn't rake them up if they did fall (which they didn't) THEN we had a rainstorm with strong west winds the snow melted, the pods blew in, then it snowed.

In the time period between the rain and the snow all the pods were exposed, I did see some chewed up ones and got as many out as I could before it snowed again. I did notice Sam in the part of the pasture that catches most of them. Flash and Hank were on the other hill grazing, which I thought odd they usually stay pretty close together...the pods NEVER occurred to me. I DO have an elec fence around that part of the pasture because of this, but had opened it after we had MANY in. of snow... it is closed off again...snow or not. If I remember correctly this is when he started acting "strange"

All these other "symptoms" along with the founder makes me think something else was at work with him.

I know he has CD and is IR.... But with Hank not foundering or at least getting sore I have to think it was something Sam got into that Hank didn't. Hank has a history of winter laminitis from hard ground or getting fat or the wind blowing in the wrong direction!...Sam doesn't. Sam was not fat and his CD seemed under control according to urination and water intake anyway.

The ground at that time was not hard, between mud from the rain then multiple inches of snow it stayed pretty soft... Right now it is hard as a rock and jagged. I keep them on a pretty strict diet... as far as carbs.... grass hay and no hard feed other than timothy pellets and very little of them..and a cup of ration balancer.

I did start soaking Sams hay when I locked him up out of desperation... tho deep down I did not feel this was caused by high carbs. Since he has recovered I quit soaking..just to hard in this weather and he does not seem affected by the not soaking. I continue to keep him stalled except a few hours a day, his hooves really need work and I don't want to push my luck with the hard ground. He seems "normal" now. He will tip toe a bit on hard ground but looks as good as Hank on it! His back end still appears to be a little weak to me, not like his hooves hurt..just weak and his head still looks a little swollen to me...I don't know what that's about! It WAS definitely swollen when he was a Zombie, it has come down where his halter fits again..but still is a little swollen I think, I don't think his eyes look quite right either... close but not quite.... Thanks
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 10:01 am:

Hi Diane - it is a puzzle, for sure. Too bad you did not get an xray when he was really feeling badly and not moving. Then you could have ruled out laminitis, or at least figured out what the coffin bones were doing. I am not sure if "no rotation" equals "no laminitis".

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 10:32 am:

Lilo he foundered, the hoof wall and white line tells that story... my puzzle is why, and was something else at play with his other symptoms.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 11:12 am:

It sure sounds like Sam probably ate some of this stuff since he was hanging in that area alone and you saw some that were partially chewed.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 12:53 pm:

The symptoms seem to fit pretty well except the swollen head, I suppose he could have "knocked his noggin" when he was in his stupor. His head seemed to be swollen more from below the eyes down. He also had sticky serumy, stuff under his neck down to his chest..I didn't know what to make of that either.

You can see his head looks swollen in this pic, especially around the jowls and the dull look in his eye. I never noticed until now when I was looking at this pic, it appears there is a line of something dripping from his ear down...HMMM He was in the stall at the time.
I circled the "drip" in red and the serumy sticky stuff in black....wonder if the drip was what caused the serumy sticky stuff. He was covered in that stuff from throat latch to chest. I tried to convince myself something dripped on him, but couldn't figure out what. especially since it was his underside of the neck that had it and he was inside.

This has just been a strange presentation of many weird symptoms.

On a good note he is out for the day and moving around well, I got the rest of the serumy stuff brushed off his neck, and he seems on the mend, spooked at a board laying in the yard by the auto waterer...that's my Sam!



Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 1:35 pm:

Hard to tell about the swelling when you don't know the horse, can't see him in person and feel him, and with all the hair! But, I can see the dullness in the eye. Poor boy! I hope he's on the mend for good now.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 6:46 pm:

Taken from the Canadian Poisonous Plant Database: Horses that ingested black locust leaves, sprouts, and bark were poisoned and died. Symptoms are similar to those of cattle and include anorexia, weakness, posterior paralysis, nausea, coldness of the extremities, and pupil dilation. Even if a horse had this list of symptoms it is non-specific enough that without a good history of ingestion it would be a very speculative diagnosis to make. From the information photos and videos we have seen it is not clear your horse had any of the more specific symptoms like posterior paralysis and pupil dilation.

Neither does it follow that because Hank did not founder that Sam could not have from the factors we have discussed already.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:05 pm:

So Dr.O. you think the explosive diarrhea, loud gut sounds, zoned out to stimulus, swollen head could be caused by founder from CD or IR or hard ground or all of the as for mentioned?

You are right I can not be sure, but it sure makes me wonder if he didn't get into something in his hay or in the pasture. He is having quite a remarkable recovery since the "other symptoms" disappeared.
My vet called it posterior paralysis.. his exact words. I believe (but not sure) that the weird look in his eyes I kept mentioning was dilation... I didn't think to really check.
I did not take pictures or video when Sam was at his worst, I did consider it, but couldn't bring myself to take death pictures or videos, I honestly thought he was done for... he really was that bad. I always thought history was important..Sam has never had a problem with hard ground (even tho there wasn't any except on their paths)or winter founder. When winter after winter ...summer after summer you have had to listen to my problems with Hank with his bruised soles and laminitis and his FAT. You don't think it strange Hank wouldn't be effected? Sam has been my healthy one..you hardly hear about him! Just his tumors on his penis...

Guess I will never know for sure...was definitely out of my experiences with a "normal" founder.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:34 pm:

No Diane, not having ever examined your horse I do not know why your horse is sick nor have I ever said or intimated that I can diagnose your horse over the internet. I have evaluated the information you have provided and given you my best thoughts on it.
DrO
Member:
pattyb

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 8:54 pm:

Diane....for what it's worth, I tend to agree with you for the sake of the obvious. Look what I went thru with Ziggy, textbook nothing but someone did finally know what was wrong with him. Couldn't it be possible he didn't ingest a lethal dose but enough to make him pretty darn sick? I'm already eating one hat after not losing power in our weekend blizzard, I'll eat another if someone can show me your above symptoms are symptomatic of CD and/or IR.

PS: I don't blame you for not wanting to take those pics/videos, I couldn't have either.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 9:14 pm:

Dr.O. Of course you can't diagnose Sam I don't expect you to.

I'm just wondering with the presenting symptoms if I am off base suspecting something else other than the "normal" causes of founder. Should I be more diligent about checking my hay for weeds (which I already am) or look for something strange in the pastures. OR am I making something out of nothing.. It does tend to make a person a bit paranoid when their horse seemed to be knocking on deaths door from an "ordinary" founder. I don't know if you recall but in my other part my vet said all I could do was offer Sam supportive care, with the tone of until you can dig a hole. I honestly think Sam barely avoided death. He is now back to normal and has no evidence of a "founder walk" or stance even on hard ground. Don't get me wrong I do think he had laminitis... I just don't think it was his main problem or initiating cause.

Thanks, I do appreciate your help thru our ordeal and glad it had a good outcome}
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 9:25 pm:

Thanks Patty, one thing I have learned over many moons with horses is they refuse to read the texts...especially those of arabian descent.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 10:34 pm:

All that one can read about the black locust stuff is that it is moderately to extremely toxic, and that measures should be taken to avoid any ingestion.

Sam certainly sounded as though he may have been toxic, in other words, cannot rule out the possibility of poisoning.

Cannot be ruled out in my humble opinion.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 1:46 pm:

Diane, if you feel he was poisoned, you certainly should monitor his environment closely, I am just not clear as to what you are looking for.
DrO
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 6:21 pm:

Thanks Dr.O. Guess I was just looking for affirmation that this was a possibility. OR was it something I did/fed wrong. OR could it have possibly been caused by his diseases.(PPID/IR)

In my head I am trying to eliminate the diet aspect of it because diet touchy Hank has remained fine.

I am not sure if PPID or IR could cause all these symptoms. I thought maybe you would know.

Black Locusts are the only thing I can think of he could have gotten into and has before..he seems to like those pods..where as Hank and Flash don't.

In one of my searches laminitis was mentioned as a common side effect (at the bottom of this article) the only thing I don't understand is the swollen head. This article says horse can recover after a few weeks..it is not always fatal..from Texas A&M
https://essmextension.tamu.edu/plants/toxics/detail.aspx?plantID=44

I like to know the why of things, especially when it was such a strange presentation. If I had any guts he would be out 24/7 he is moving well and looks 100% now. He remains stalled except for a few hrs. a day because I don't really know what caused this...
I know you don't either. but thought maybe you could shed some light on my thoughts

Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:40 pm:

Diane,

It sounds as though Sam did experience not only a case of laminitis but founder. No matter what the cause was, those feet will still be somewhat fragile.

Better to proceed with caution.

My friend whose horse got into a load of grain resulting in bloat/colic and then laminitis, had her horse pretty much confined for a solid three months with slow and careful reactivation thereafter. Ultimately, he had a complete recovery, and the minor rotation seemed to have corrected.

Just because the heat goes out of the feet doesn't mean that those lamini are strong.

And I think that we both need to avoid having our horses' feet absorb any significant amount of moisture for quite some time yet?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:47 pm:

Diane, I think when you have horses you must accept the fact that things happen, liminitis and founder included, and you may never know the reason. Indeed, there may be no reason, at least no reason that is every discernable. I've even been told by a well known vet that a horse can develop laminitis and found for almost no reason; a slight fever even that you may never notice; or a bruise, or whatever. In fact, he made it sound lucky that we all weren't struggling with constantly laminitic/foundering horses. You most likely will never really know what the cause of Sam's problems really were. Just be glad he's doing better.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 8:10 pm:

OK I give up then...
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 8:28 pm:

Love the icon Diane! At least you left no stone unturned. I'm glad Sam is better.
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 5:21 am:

Personally I think black locust poisoning sounds extremely likely in Sam's case. You've seen the half-chewed pods, you've seen Sam in the same vicinity as the half-chewed pods, the symptoms of black locust poisoning match his symptoms exactly, the timing is right ... why wouldn't it be?

I also think you're right to go really slowly in getting Sam back to his normal routine after all he's been through. And I would be SCOURING that corner of the pasture for the tiniest trace of pods and fencing it off with electric tape and anything else I could think of. After all, Sam's a horse (and a male!) - he'll probably go straight back to the area to chomp on some more locust pods given half a chance!

Just my humble view.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 6:44 am:

LL, I guess the reason I try to always find causes is to keep it from happening again.

IF PPID/IR could have caused this I have to be more diligent with his diet, upping meds in the fall or something.

The Black Locusts foiled me this year, usually I do have them cleaned out of the pasture before the first snow fall. Then the weather played a trick on me. That area is closed off now. I wish I could kill those trees somehow without the neighbor knowing

Sam is getting very rambunctious in his stall. Since we are in the midst of getting 10 ins. of snow I think I will let him out during the day anyway. I wouldn't think it could be worse than trotting tiny circles in his stall. They don't move much when outside, there is nothing to move for. He will probably stand in the lean-to with the others, since he thinks he's free, movement will be minimal, compared to what he does in his stall...my guess based on what he does for a couple hrs. when let out.
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 9:54 am:

Sounds like a plan!

And NEXT plan is the covert assassination of neighbor's black locust trees - Hmmm ... with all the brainy people on HA I'm sure a brilliant operation can be thought up. Yes, and there could be an HA task force to execute it too ...
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 9:55 am:

Diane,

If the snow is of a consistency to form blobs and stick to the bottom of Sam's feet, that might be a bad thing.

Have read that can really cause some bruising.

I know what you mean though when they get rambunctious being in an enclosed area.

We must weigh all of these things knowing each horse in each case.

Also, remember that anything that makes the feet soft (moisture) can be catastrophic, even without a recent founder.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 12:02 pm:

Vicki Yes I do know about the snow ball problem having lived through it with Hank and another mare I owned. Sam doesn't collect snow balls like big hooved Hank, It seems if the hoof wall is kept short, snow balls are way less of a problem, which I have been doing since I trim them right now.

Unfortunately if I waited for the snow to go away OR for it to dry up it would be JULY (maybe) before he could be out it is always wet here except a couple weeks a year.

I think it is important for them to get moving a little once stabalized and not sore...especially the IR type. I never did lock Hank up in a stall, let him move at will in a small dry lot. Getting him out walking with his boots and pads on seemed to help him recover quicker. Galloping around like idiots would be another thing. A fine line indeed

LL I wish I knew of a way to kill those trees, at least the ones along our fenceline without getting caught! They have been a pain in my arse since we moved here. Of course if I managed to kill them they would probably blow over onto our fence and free the horses. I really hate those trees, we have them in our cow pasture and have been trying to slowly eliminate them, you can only cut them down in the early spring when those huge thorns are still green. Otherwise they fall off when the tree falls and go all over the pasture ...leading to thorns in the hooves.

They are pretty in the spring and smell good with there flowers...even tho I know all those flowers are going to turn into those nasty pods!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 3:15 pm:

Diane,

I asked for and received a neighbor's permission to remove toxic trees near our fence line.

Often owners of land are very happy to get rid of such things.

I've also been known to move a fence line on account of hazards.

Or maybe temporary electric fencing to exclude your horses from that area during part of the year?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 4:21 pm:

Afraid the neighbor from the burbs thinks his thorny, deadly trees are wonderful. I do have that area fenced off, making the mistake of thinking after it snowed I was safe and opened it...WRONG. NEVER trust upper midwest weather!!!
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 8:36 pm:

Tree branches on your side of the property are yours to remove. When I lived in town I had "a problem tree". I went to the neighbor and sweetly asked if he wanted to remove the limbs, or I could and would. You own the "vertical plane air space". Maybe such a trim will hasten the demise of the trees! 2nd option, husband said a granular poison product "Spike" does a thorough job on trees within a year. He uses it to begin to clear a fence row. ;)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 10:06 pm:

No limbs hang over on our side.. the pods blow in with a strong west wind...which is never ending.

Another neighbor had our whole fence line in back of the horse pasture engulfed in choke cherry trees another deadly tree to horses... I got rid of them with "drift" from spraying the fence line, accidentally got the trees too!...I don't think they even noticed I killed them They are more like bushes tho, don't think I could kill those huge Black Locusts with "drift"... it has crossed my mind to try tho
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 7:29 am:

The trees are still standing after our earthquake Probably shook more pods over here tho!

Thanks for all your help..Sam is fully recovered, went out yesterday all day...beating Hank in the race for the hay . I am still leaving him in the stall at night. This weekend I may try 24/7 with him again... the ground is very soft with the snow and more on the way so I think he'll be fine. I will leave his stall intact in case the ground gets hard again and he shows sign of pain... I don't think he will, especially if I can get his hooves under control.
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 10:18 am:

I thought about you, Diane, when I heard about the earthquake on the news, this morning, although I think they said it was closer to Chicago?

We had one around her about 2 years ago and it felt like a truck rumbling down the road...but longer and of course, I didn't actually hear a truck, so the oddness of it pulled me fully awake. Turned on the TV to the breaking news of the quake.

Here in the mid-west, we're used to a lot of Mother Nature's quirks, but earthquakes - even mild ones - are a bit of a shock
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 2:25 pm:

So glad that Sam is doing well, Diane and that things are okay at your farm.

Watch out for those pods!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 10:27 pm:

The end of Sam's saga seems to be here. He has been out 24/7 now for 3 days and doing well.

I have been lowering his pergolide and now have him at one ML, none of his symptoms have returned. I am not convinced his CD was a culprit in this whole mess so want to get his dosage as low as possible while still controlling his CD symptoms which was around.75 ml before this all happened.

The bruising that was on his sole in the pictures I posted are gone

He did seem to have a little lingering backend weakness, but that seems to have finally passed.
He did a beautiful tail in the air araby trot yesterday and looked great for an old CD, IR, long hooved fella!

I believe, but can not prove that this was caused by something he ate, with black locust at the top of the list.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 7:05 am:

I'm so glad that Sam has recovered, Diane. Watching him trot around yesterday must have done your heart a whole lot of good!
Member:
frances

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 8:27 am:

Wonderful news Diane! Pity we'll never know for sure what it was ...
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 9:47 am:

Great news, Diane!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 5:20 pm:

Excellent news, Diane.

Thanks for letting us know. I think of Sam often.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 - 6:15 pm:

Great news, Diane!!

Maybe you could come for an extended visit and get Sahira back to normal? I'll post on her thread later; she's still really sore.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 8:18 am:

Sam got his first "real" trim since his ordeal. I think he is a sore little guy... especially in the rears. He would not come out of the lean-to when I tried to lure him out with hay... he is usually the first one to the hay. He was moving well on the soft bedding.

The farrier said there was quite a bit of separation in all 4 hooves. I told him I expected the Right rear was the worst of them and he said I was right.

I swear that guy doesn't bevel, before he did the horses I told him what I was doing from the bottom and he said he can bevel from the top, well if that is possible I don't think he did. I think I will lock Sam up at night again when the ground is hard (not that he will go on it anyway!) He did not take any sole off any of the horses, I'm not sure I can even blame the farrier for his soreness until I examine his hooves when I get home. I fed Sam and Hank in the lean-to and will see how they are when I get home...hope I don't have to buy another $1000 worth of bedding!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Feb 26, 2010 - 8:42 am:

Don't sound good. I hope you get new pictures and yes, please start new picture discussions on each horse. (typing blind, it's time)

don't be too hard on your hoof guy; my hoof helper just showed me proof that I was doing bars better last summer than now! (nice to know she keeps my pictures on file, lol!) No one is sore but I need to make some very very minor adjustments on a couple of hoofs to get better results.

Learning curve, learning curve...
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Mar 4, 2010 - 3:26 pm:

I discovered some evidence of the pod ingestion.

Those of you in the northern climates know what spring clean up is like. My horses have 2 places in the paddock they poop all winter. Once it snows and freezes I give up trying to clean it, which leaves me 2 big frozen poop piles in the spring.

Those of you that don't have this pleasure this is how it goes once we start getting above freezing..rake off poop, hit ice...let it melt to next layer...repeat for WEEKS. I have been doing this for the last couple weeks. day before yesterday I finally got down to the last layer and as I was raking the poop I found alot of seed like things. I couldn't figure out what they were, even went and got some rubber gloves so I could examine them closer... no idea. Thought about posting a pic here but was too lazy to go in and get my camera. Pretty much forgot about them until today... because I found them again as I was walking the fenced off pasture...right inside those pods!!!! An exact match!! My mouth fell open I thought OMG it WAS those things. Being at the bottom of the poop pile coincides very well with Sams illness... Dec. when I stop cleaning the poop!

I think the mystery is solved

Sam is doing well still walking on hard ground with no problems and looks pretty good. He did DrOp some weight and is kind of ribby, but that is OK going into grass season. He isn't shedding tho!!

I have slowly knocked him back down to .75mg of pergolide with no adverse effects.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 4, 2010 - 5:18 pm:

WOW . . Very interesting news, Diane.

Thanks for letting us know.

I'm so happy to hear that Sam is continuing to do so well!
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Mar 4, 2010 - 6:34 pm:

Thanks for the follow-up Diane! What our horses won't do to keep us occupied...
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Mar 4, 2010 - 8:18 pm:

Diane, I do the winter poop layer cake too. Every time the weather warms up I scrape the top layer off...:-)

Very interesting about the poop pod discovery.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 5, 2010 - 7:33 am:

I found those seeds in both of the frozen piles, I suppose they don't digest and come back out whole. Amazing what poop pile can reveal! I would have never noticed them in "whole poops" I don't think. When raking off ice the poop is shredded and reveals everything, I actually thought it was some kind of worm egg when I saw them, until closer examination.

Vicki Z. how is Perry? I have been wondering about him and Sahira.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 5, 2010 - 11:47 am:

Diane,

I too have been wondering about Sahira, and Sara's other horse as well.

Perry is still stalled up in the deep shavings in my 12 x 24' sick stall.

My Vet is coming for a recheck tomorrow afternoon so will post an update then, which will be more official.

I'm hoping to get cleared for at least some limited exercise/turn out for Perry.

He has been acting more inclined to move around and is not lame out on turf but after being walked a bit, when he stands on that RF foot outside of the deep shavings, I do notice that his leg begins to quiver somewhat.

Will post more details after the Vet's visit as to what the plan is. Soon it will be 3 weeks since Perry was last Vet checked.

I'm still sick and on two antibiotics, so am being forced to learn to be patient all the way around.

It was record cold here this morning so the horses are not minding hanging around the barn lately as it has been mostly cool days.

Thanks for asking about Perry.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2010 - 2:50 pm:

Well, well, will I ever learn??? I spent this morning fencing off the pod pasture, we had some rain and wind Fri. and they were starting to fall.

I turned the horses out Sat. plenty of grass to keep them occupied. Turned them out this morning after I put the fence up, looked out and didn't see Flash anywhere so went out to check on her, she was standing in the lean-to head hanging looking miserable....HMMMMMM.

I proceeded to start cleaning the paddock poop up and WHAT did I find but those pod seeds in the poop again!!! and laying in the paddock!!!








Hank has had squirting diarrhea for a couple days off and on, So while I was cleaning the paddock I saw him poop out in the pasture and went and dug through his poop...YUP pod seeds in his poop
I have a feeling Flash my have eaten some and doesn't feel well. Just to be on the safe side I gave her some banamine, and locked her up in her pen.

This is just the beginning of the pod infestation, it is all fenced now...day late for goodnesss sake. If you see anything like this in your pasture BEWARE! Hopefully Flash will be ok.


Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2010 - 4:57 pm:

Thanks for the reminder about seasonal hazards, Diane.

Hope they will feel well again soon.
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