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  Discussion on Callie's weight loss
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New Member:
pattiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 10:37 am:

Posted on Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 - 3:46 pm:

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I am currently experiencing weight loss with one of my horses. Her vet and I have been trying to figure this out and working on this since September. I have 5 horses. 3 quarter horses and 2 thoroughbreds. The horse in question is an off the track thoroughbred. She's 10 now. I have another off the track thoroughbred that is the same age, same height, and came from the same track and owner. She is healthy and happy. I can't compare the quarter horses body conditions to hers as they are generally easier keepers, but the other thoroughbred with a good body condition, same feed, same supplements, same pasture, everything the same. One is thriving, one is not. We've done all the blood work, floated teeth, dewormed, made vet approved changes to her diet, blood work, fecal exam. Additional blood tests for selenium/ vitamin E deficiencies (came back normal) and EPM (negative). She did have a slightly irregular heart beat at her last exam and seemed to be a bit winded after very minimal activity, but not since. The vet suggested perhaps she was experiencing a bit of colicky pain at the time. She is the great granddaughter, through her Dam to Secratariat, the granddaughter through her sire to Seeking the Gold (perhaps important if there is a a known genetic problem with these bloodlines) and she did experience a "spiral" fracture in her leg during a race, 6 years ago which was treated by a track vet and caused her to end her successful racing career. (she was cleared to race again but the owner did not want to jeopardize her health) I'm thinking of sending her to NC State vet hospital if she doesn't improve after we complete her deworming program which is another 15 days. Any insight? Any suggestions? She has NO clinical signs other than what I described with weight loss.....oh, and she is a wind sucker....othr than that, normal behavior (for a thoroughbred!)
New Member:
pattiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:35 am:

I forgot to mention that her appetite is good and the reason I posted under Lymphoma is because this is what was suggested to Callie's vet as the most likely suspect during her consult with the vet school. There was one other suggestion by the vet school as well although I can't recall the term it was something like irregular bowel disorder or something like that, suggesting that even with her good appetite, the nutrients she is receiving are not being absorbed properly. I am very worried about my girl....
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:52 am:

Patti, I'm sure this seems simplistic but can you just give her more hay or feed? All horses metabolism's are different and just because on TB holds their weight well on the same amount of food, doesn't mean the other will. When I worked at a boarding barn it was amazing at the different needs of calories for these horses (quite a few were off the track TB's) adding Alfalfa hay along with free choice grass hay seemed to help the harder keepers add weight or at least maintain, along with quite a bit of feed and beet pulp... some had oil added too. Some TB's also can "nerve off" their weight even tho they may not seem nervous or unhappy. Just some suggestions you may have already tried.

How many pounds of what is she fed and how often?
New Member:
pattiann

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 12:31 pm:

Her current feeding regime: 4 pounds of Senior feed, 2 pounds of 12% pellet, plus a quart and a half of soaked alfalfa cubes in the morning, then 4 pounds of Senior feed, 2 pounds of 12% pellet, 1 cup of amplify, 1/4 cup rice bran oil, and 2 quarts of soaked beet pulp in the evening. Lots of hay, both morning and evening and pasture grazing during the day. We are on coastal bermuda hay here in eastern nc which is not the best, but it's forage. I chose the senior feed because it's a complete feed that is easiest on the digestive tract, the alfalfa to up the protein and minerals that may be lacking in the coastal hay and the winter pasture,the beet pulp for the same reasons we all use beet pulp, the rice bran oil and amplify to up her fat intake. My farrier is traveling to Ohio to pick up a load of Timothy/orchard hay which I will add to her diet with her regular coastal hay. Her water intake is good too. The thing is, I've had this horse for several years now. She has always been a healthy weight. This is a new problem for her and with me. She is down at least 200 lbs. I'm talking some serious weight loss without real explanation and regardless of what we do for her or her diet, is not changing. It was a sudden weight loss that just seemed to have completely DrOpped off her top line and she is not recovering.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 5:51 am:

Hello Patti,
It is always disconcerting when a horse's basic nutrient needs goes way up and I don't see anything in your post that helps me diagnose what is going on with your TB but until you and your veterinarian figure it out, you have to increase the nutrients going in until your horse gets into a positive energy balance.

I would recommend you consider adding a third feeding of 4 lbs of Equine Senior in the middle of the day and start substituting in alfalfa hay for the bermuda gradually switching out to all alfalfa. How many lbs of hay is she currently getting and what is the pasture situation like?

For more on feeding difficult keepers, a list of possible rule out, and diagnostic recommendations see Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Weight Loss in Horses » Overview of Chronic Weight Loss.
DrO
New Member:
pattiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 7:22 pm:

Yes. Disconcerting to say the least. I am not in a position that I can add another mid day feeding on a regular basis. I am at a boarding facility that is very accommodating, but I really can't ask them to handle my horses each day. Four of them can be a handful and although I could leave work occassionally, I am very busy during the day and it just isn't practical. Another suggestion?
The pasture situation is as good as a winter pasture situation can be I suppose. I feed them from a round bale so I don't actually know how to equate that to pounds or flakes, but they have 2 large feeders that I overfill every morning and evening so let's just say she gets lots of hay.

I began taking photos of her last week to perhaps document her progress, or lack there of. I see her every day so it's tough for me to realize any real change.
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 7:24 pm:

Thank you by the way....:-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:47 am:

Patti if your horse is in negative energy balance and already receiving two large meals a day, it may not be safe to increase the amount fed at each feeding significantly, I feel without that third meal this is going to be tough. There is still replacing the bermuda hay with alfalfa, you could try increasing the amount of oil, and you should be adding a little bit o bran with the beet pulp (see the article on feeding beet pulp) but these are mostly covered in the article I reference above.
DrO
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:19 pm:

So, naive, maybe, what do you mean by negative energy balance? My vet mentioned this negative energy balance vs. positive energy balance to me today....I have no idea what the two of you are talking about. Along with the feeding regime, I am worming with Pancur Power Pak, then next week, which will be 10 days later, I will give her Quest, then 10 days after, Quest Plus. Cleaning her out and giving her a fresh start that way. I thought 10 days after that would be a good time to reexamine her, but my vet mentioned the negative energy balance vs. the positive energy balance and how it takes a little more time than 10 days. So we decided we will rexamine her on March 11th and if no marked improvement, then we will make the decision on where to go from there. What do you think about adding probiotics? I started taking photos of her, for the last 2 weeks anyway thinking it will be easier to notice changes via photos as it's tough for me to be subjective seeing her every day and hoping for changes. Should I send them to you?
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:45 pm:

Patti,

My understanding of positive and negative energy balance is this.

A horse needs a certain amount of energy( food related stuffs) to maintain them where they are supposed to be. If they get less then what their energy requirements are that = negative energy, if they get too much it's positive and they get too fat and have way too much energy for their own good.

You need to find a happy medium between too much and too little and it varies with what activity, if any, the horse is doing at any given time.

I know your horse is having severe weight loss problems, but if you explained it to the barn owner that for her health and well being that she needs lunch ( and maybe threw her a few extra bucks for feeding and bought the extra feed), you don't think that she would feed her? I think I'd be looking for a new place to board.

This is another thing, are you sure she's getting what she's supposed to be getting a.m. and p.m.? Are you there to see that she's eating?

Rachelle
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:45 pm:

Hey Rachelle,

That sort of makes sense to me. I have to let it roll around in my brain for a bit to get a grasp on it. There was really no difference in her activity level form pre weight loss until weight loss. Well, now that there is such an issue, activity is minimal until we get it straightened out, understandably.

My boarding facility is all I could hope for. I've always had my horses with me until I moved to NC and didn't have my own land so I had to board. A different experience and no one takes care of yours like you do. I was with the same boarding facility since 1991 and when the folks retired from the horse boarding business, and their daughter took over, I felt like the horses weren't receiving the care they needed so I moved them pronto.

This new facility, for about a year now, is really great. Not a lot of bells and whistles but well maintained and a very nice facility overall plus the owners are great. They set me up so my horses are together by themselves, I have my own pastures, my own shelters, everything. It's the next best thing to having the horses in my back yard. Really it is.
I completely manage their care and they will make whatever changes I ask, and are open to suggestions always. I don't get into the barn politics and discuss a lot of my horse stuff with other boarders, but with the owners, I talk to them and keep them informed with everything I do. Afterall, I respect that it is their place. I have a lot of horse experience as do they, so we share and are always learning from each other.

I actually go every morning before work and personally feed them, and every evening, I feed them as well so they get everything. I supply their food, supplements etc. They would absolutely do it if I asked, but I feel like this is my issue and I should manage it.

My horses are easy to handle overall, but to pull one out to feed her mid afternoon, without the others could lead to issues and I don't want to put them in that position. Either of feeling obligated to do it or just putting them into a situation where my horses may not be on their best behavior, you know....So this is what I am left with.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 7:26 am:

Patti, it sounds as if you are a barn owner's dream: not getting involved in politics, taking good care of your own horses, involved in their care but not too demanding...I have found (as a boarder, not owner) that BO's really appreciate this type of boarder and are usually willing to accomodate - particularly when it comes to the health and well being of the horses.

I don't think it would hurt to ask for that third meal. The BO's could do it some time during the day when they check hay or water. They don't even need to bring your horse in - they can bring the feed out in a pan or bucket, with a little bit in another pan for the pasturemate to prevent fighting over the food.

If it doesn't work out, so be it...but I would think it's worth a try.
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 9:12 am:

Thanks. I think I am a good boarder too! You're right. It couldn't hurt to ask. I will give it a shot.
So I talked to my vet briefly about probiotics, did a little research on line, read through he article posted here, but couldn't find either recent good information or conclusive information. Any word?
Out with the bad juju in with the good juju!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 9:38 am:

Patti,

I know what its like to have to deal with one horse in a herd multiple, so. Here is what I would suggest.

If you can feed all your horses 3 times a day, it would probably be a good thing for all of them. If the others are doing well on what they are getting, all you have to do is give them less in the am and pm and give them the rest at lunch. Feed your underweight horse what she is getting now.

Not sure of your feeding situation and if they can all be fed outside at the same time. They will establish a pecking order if you feed on the fence in feed buckets, just make sure they are far enough away from each other. I am sure you know the drill.

Set up your food labeled with all the horses names, So BO does not have to guess and give it a whirl. If there is somewhere that Callie can go to eat by herself without the BO having to pull in the rest of the horses, that's even better. You might be able to set up a small feeding pen so she does not get disturbed.

Rachelle
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 2:01 pm:

I usually separate the quarter horses from the thoroughbreds at feeding time as they eat less and eat much faster....
These are excellent ideas. Perhaps I can make the quarter horses larger meal during the lunch hour and Callie's meal her snack so they finish at about the same time. Could work....I have to think about how to best divy up the feed so the healthy horses don't get overfed and Callie adds a meal.....an unsupervised meal.....Thanks!
Member:
pattiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 12, 2010 - 9:06 pm:

So Good News! My vet came to visit Callie today for a follow up. Although she still has not gained all of her weight back, she is progressing nicely. I am relieved....She has lots of energy, gaining some muscle, her coat looks good, her heart murmur is literally undetectable, my vet wants me to keep on doing what I'm doing and she'll see her in a month for spring shots. Whew! Thanks all for the advice and encouragement....
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 - 8:23 am:

Great to hear Patti, if pasture is available that will be coming on soon too to help. My daffodils had their first bloom this morn.
DrO
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