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  Discussion on Treating Ulcers...looking for better results
Author Message
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 7:14 pm:

Hello Dr.O & Folks,
My 14 yr old gelding was seen by DVM 1/4/10 with my complaint of poor preformance/crankiness under saddle. Rooting (pulling reins out of hand),pursing lips, holding abdominals (almost looks like a heaves line...) This Vet said she thought his stomach was definitely bothering him. (She is a well known "lameness" vet in the area that has known my horse for 6 years).
She advised 1 tube Gastro/ulcerguard per day for atleast 2 weeks and then try to taper off. I believe the "treatment dose" prescribed by Dr.O is 1 full tube for 4 weeks and then 1/4 tube (correct?) for another 2-4 weeks. As well as management practices.
My horse is at boarding facility turned out in 1 acre paddock on average 6 hours per day with a nice little friend (same for 3 years) small amount of grass during summer and 4 hay feeding a day ( I stress as much as possible to give him LOTS of hay...but when you board....they never get the same care you would give them) He does get roughly 3 flakes per feeding with 1 alfalfa & 2 grass depending on who feeds. He gets 1 cup Purina Athlete & 1 Cup Senior feed with 1/2 cup Cocosoya oil 2 x per day. He seems to have no trouble eating and does not appear colicky and is in excellent weight. Coat is maybe a little dull...but not bad. I am also feeding 1/2 cup Aloe Vera juice with grain and Smartpak Smart Gut which has pro& pre biotics, antacids,herbs to soothe, soluble fiber. In addition, prior to riding I give 60cc of oral antacid thinking that during work it will protect the stomach lining from acid and he eats some hay.
So...i guess I have seen some improvement...but not a LOT. My horse is typically very stoic and enjoys his work...low level dressage..not hard training and I vary the work and do not force anything. He is always such a sweetheart and today was spookier than ever and even tried to buck me off at one moment...not my guy!! He tries hard but is not happy...any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
IKE
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 2:01 pm:

Hi IKE, it sounds to me like you have everything covered :-)

You could try the Smartpak Ultra, they say it treats the entire digestive tract including the hind gut. I haven't had to give ulcerguard since putting my horse on it. It has the glutamine and oat beta glucan that succeed has.

https://www.smartpakequine.com/ProductClass.aspx?productclassid=6312&cm_sp=TopPic ks-_-Digestive_Supplements-_-SmartDigestUltra

Good luck!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 8:48 pm:

Hello IKE,
Has your guy become bored with a somewhat restrictive routine? You describe behavioral issues that while I cannot rule out medical causes, neither do I see a reason to suspect them. If a thorough exam does not find a clear source of pain in the body, consider that this is something on his mind. As to adding yet more supplements, consider the vast majority of horses are doing fine on forage and simple concentrates.
DrO
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 1:19 pm:

Thanks for your reply Dr.O. I agree about the idea of plenty of forage, limited (if any ) concentrates and uneccessary supplements. I have only been feeding a good joint supplement. I called the DVM again yesterday and told her when I was riding yesterday and asked for R canter ( after about 20 min of thoughtful walk & some good trot work) and he tried to stop and duck his neck to buck a couple of times...we quietly went back to trot work and I asked for canter again in both directions and praised him for doing it without issue. He is a very obedient and willing horse and typically enjoys his riding sessions. Upon returning to his stall I was finished up & about to leave the barn and I watched a horse walk by him and he lunged at the horse!! A few minutes later another horse walked by and he kicked the wall hard 4 times!! I have never witnessed this before with my horse. I have seen him at feeding time perhaps put an ear back when the horse next door peeked around the corner, but never more aggression than that.(this incident was not at feeding time and he had a big pile of hay in front of him). It could be he is sour with our routine...I do try to vary it when I can and get outside when the outdoor arena is not solid ice...Winter in new England is not very forgiving at the moment.
Saddle fitter also came today checked saddle and being a chiro as well..looked him over and "adjusted" him finding some area's in lower thoracic/lumbar & poll area. Dr.O I know you are not a fan of chiro based on lack of clinical studies, but I thought I would give the info. just the same.
Thanks Aileen, my vet had also suggested The Smart Digest Ultra...the store was out of it when I was there, so I got the Smart Gut...I think the biggest differences are the Gut has an antacid also and not the Oat beta you mentioned.

Dr.O one more question...as I understand it.. Omeprazole is and acid "inhibitor"...would it not make sense then to give antacid? Isn't there still some production of acid for forage breakdown?
Many Thanks
Ike
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 5:45 pm:

The devil is in the details Ike, check out the article's discussion on antacids.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 6:30 pm:

Ike,

I looked into this with my horse Perry having ulcers recently.

From what I can learn giving antacids, even injections, tends to work when used continuously, only for a short term. My Vet says that they tend to lose effectiveness within about a week.

And the antacids, if given orally, have to be given very frequently (4 - 6 hours).

I did have some success using the product "Miracle Clay" a couple of times daily before putting my horse on the Gastro Guard, which he will be on for a month.

Because my horse was on other drugs, my Vet didn't want the clay used too closely to the dosages of the other drugs because it could potentially cause the prescription drugs to be less absorbed.

From what I can gather, the generics for the Gastro Guard have not performed too well.

It sounds as though your horse is going through a lot of emotional displays currently that may be reflective of a potentially excitable, emotional personality, given certain stimuli.

My horse has been on the Gastro Guard for two weeks, and after being on it for nearly one week began doing splendidly. It must be given for a number of days before it begins to really work.
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 6:40 pm:

Hi Dr.O, I re-read the article and perhaps I need to rephrase my question. Should I believe that by giving omeprazole to my horse it is stopping acid production in the stomach? I was told by a nurse/friend that's what that product does. Therefore...would it be a moot point to give an oral antacid before riding if the acid is not there.... My Vet had suggested 60cc of oral antacid before riding. I'm thinking there is still acid production, but I'm not a Dr. or a Nurse so I'm not sure.

Thanks,

Ike
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 8:35 pm:

Hi Vicki, Thanks for your thoughts. Just to be clear...I am not looking to give antacids as a "cure". I don't believe that would help at ALL! Based on Dr.O's very thoughtful and knowledgeable articles and my own Vet's advice...it clearly states that omeprazole is the best at "curing" gastric ulcers. I will continue that if needed. I was only speaking about giving 60cc of oral antacids specifically before riding as to minimize the most acidic contents of the stomach bottom being churned up into the most sensitive top part of the stomach and burning the lining. I am not using it to cure or treat ulcers...just minimize acid churning during work.
My horse has really not been acting spooky or reacting to things externally. more so internally.

Thanks,
Ike
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 9:27 pm:

Hi, Ike,

I am not suggesting anything about your horse's behavior, but noticed in your post that there had been some rather aggressive reactions to surrounding horses.

In my experience when a horse reacts to others around him as yours recently did, it does say something about the herd dynamics.

Certainly it does not imply that such a horse might need stomach aids. Usually such aggression, in my experience, denotes a rather confident horse.

But also, an emotional horse.
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 - 9:47 pm:

Hi Vicki, You're sure right about emotional...usually a pretty stoic guy. But Seems on the needy side lately...hanging over me alot. Not in a rude or pushy way...but just glued to my side when he can be.
Thanks for your thoughts Vicki

Ike,
Member:
frances

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 6:08 am:

Hi Ike, You say that your horse acted aggressively to other passing horses ALTHOUGH he had a big pile of hay in front of him. Could it not have been BECAUSE he had a big pile of hay and was protecting it from the others?

Of course your point was probably that this was another example of uncharacteristic behaviour for him, in which case ignore the above!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 8:29 am:

The idea of a dose of antacid just before exercise is an interesting one that as far as I know has not been specifically studied. You would reduce the acidity for 2 to 4 hours but then you still may get rebound...I don't know if this is a good recommendation or not.

The natural buffer for stomach acid is saliva and with this in mind we make recommendations in the article on pre-ride management to minimize acidity during work. For a lot more on how omeprazole works see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Miscellaneous Drugs » Omeprazole (Gastroguard).
DrO
Member:
kriseyc

Posted on Friday, Feb 5, 2010 - 8:40 pm:

Thanks Dr. O I'll check out the further info in the drug section. Always before I ride he goes into his stall for 10-15 minutes and he's munching on hay prior, so the saliva is on his belly also. If the antacid id given when tacking up and I typically ride 45 min...then I don't mind the effect wearing off as he will then be eating hay again when I'm done.
Thanks for your thoughts LL...there have been a few new horses in the barn (yet not the ones he lunged at) so he could be letting it known ( to everyone) to not try to advance on his hay. His typical herd placement has been to the low end. He will play "face" with his best buddie,even start the game... but if they want him to move over...he will in an instant. He is currently with just 1 other gelding but has been with up to as many as 6 other geldings and 3 mares...and I usually saw him hanging out with the lower end or older horses...a different one would be hanging out with him every day...cute :-)

Ike
New Member:
fkinstle

Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 12:48 pm:

Hello to everybody

I am a new member of this site and would like to pose a question to Dr. Olesby.

I own a 23 year-old half Arabian who has been diagnosed with Inflammatory Bowel Disease, ulcers, and Cushing disease by the Large Animal Hospital at Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine where was hospitalized for 12 days starting April 14, 2010.

Medicine:
(1) 12 mi dexamethasone intramuscularly once a day for 6 days—after the 6th day, reducing medication 2 mi each additional week.
(2) Gastrogard, ¼ tube once a day for 14 days
(3) Saccharomyces boulardii, 3 capsules, twice a day for 15 days.
(3) Pergolide, 1.5 to 2 mi orally once a day for life. (Cushing’s disease)
(4) Purina Senior (6 lbs Purina Senior X 3 daily)
(5) Timothy hay

I am sorry to say that we are back to “square one” with this disease—some days better than others, but still diarrhea. She seems to feel good and has regained her weight. She still enjoys the other two horses, eats good, and looks good. One would never suspect that she is ill except for the diarrhea.

This mare was born and raised on my small farm where she has excellent living conditions—beautiful barn (stabled at night), turned out in a 10 acre pasture during the day, exceptional veterinary care—yearly vaccinations, six-weeks dewormer program, six weeks hoof trim, and ridden only as a “pleasure” horse by me (76-year-old female retired school teacher with a bad knee). Consequently, this mare had not had a saddle on her back for at least three years.

Dr. Oglesby, can you suggest anything for this mare. Money is no problem.

Thanks,

Faye Kinstler
102 Burgess Drive
Springville, AL 35146
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 10:06 am:

Welcome to Horseadvice Faye,
I believe we can help you with your question but let me get you started off right.

You will get more responses if you start your own discussion rather than post at the bottom of another member's discussion. Each discussion is "owned" by the original poster and all replies in that discussion should either directly or indirectly address the concerns of the original poster.

To start your own discussion you can use the navigation bar at the top of this page to back up one page. This will be a Article Page where after the article there is a list of already present discussions and at the bottom of that list you will find the "Start New Discussion" button. It is at the bottom of the page.

However we do have a better article covering your subject and you will find it at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Colic, Diarrhea, GI Tract » Diarrhea in Horses » Diarrhea an Overview. It too will have a "Start New Discussion" button at the bottom. Review the article as it addresses your concern in depth and then if you still have questions post a new discussion.

Thank you for your help with keeping Horseadvice.com organized and easily searchable.
DrO
New Member:
suecrane

Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 1:51 pm:

I have had terrific luck administering the following to my gelding, who also has ulcers and has been treated twice with a full regimen of Omeprazole.

I mix the following ingredients in equal amounts, and feed 1/2 cup of the mixture daily (1/4 cup 2x a day would probably be ideal). I purchase these herbs online at mountain rose herbs. They are all organic, human grade.
Marshmallow Root Powder - soothes stomach irritation
Dried Peppermint Leaves - stomachic, antispasmodic, antimicrobic
Fenugreek Seed Powder - improves glucose tolerance, lowers blood glucose levels, lymphatic tonic and stimulates digestion
Licorice Root Powder - aids in healing stomach ulcers, used as intestinal antispasmodic
Anise Seed Powder - used as a digestive aid
Slippery Elm Bark Powder - treats ulceration of mucosal membranes
Astragalus Root Powder - used for immune enhancement
Vitex (Chaste) Berry Powder - treatment for flatulence; treatment for gynecological disorders
Fennel Seed Powder - stops stomach cramps
Dandelion Root Powder - purifies blood & liver, maximizes the performance of the kidneys, pancreas, spleen and stomach

I also add a scoop of SmartPak SmartDigest
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 9:21 am:

Hello Sue,
I need to note here that there is no research I find that such a concoction would provide help for equine gastric ulcers. Yes, there are anecdotal reports that Vitex Berry Powder may be helpful, though some members report no success in helpful. Perhaps the mucilage in the Elm Bark might be helpful, for more see out article on ulcers. But in your mixture the doses appear to me to be a fraction of what has been reported to be therapeutic. Posting the actual weights of the individual ingredients rather than the volume (1/20th of a cup of each fed daily) would make this clearer.
DrO
Member:
martina

Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 4:56 pm:

Faye, I read your post with interest. With so much going for your mare, it must be frustrating to be unable to conquer this.

Coming at it from a completely different angle, you mention that your mare hasn't been ridden in 3 years. Assuming that she can be ridden, or at least lunged or long-lined, what about paying for an exercise rider or trainer to come to your place and (pleasure) ride 2-3X week? I know my geldings are much happier and healthier when they have a job to do. Your mare may appreciate the change, and the side effect may be a calmer stomach.

Tina
Member:
paul303

Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 1:29 am:

OK, I think I own the queen of ulcers. She's pampered, out 24/7 with constant stall access, long, relaxed rides on quiet trails, in wonderful health.

I honestly believe in the full gastroguard treatment for 28 days and 1/2 dose for 14 days. If you've got a rough case of ulcers, there doesn't seem to be any way around it.

After her first bout, we kept hay in front of our mare, constantly. Her weight shot up. Then we got yelled at because founder was a worry. We cut her way back and got that under control....and she rewarded us with another ulcer attack. What we did ( after the full gastroguard treatment ), was to purchase "nibblenets", a really neat 'haynet'. It really slows down their eating, without irritating them. It works even better than double haynets. They get the same amount of hay ( the diet amount ), but it takes them 5 times as long to eat it....and keeping something going through the gut constantly, is important in a horse with ulcers.
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