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  Discussion on Thrush in frog of laminitis patient (Perry)
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Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 4:04 pm:

Dr. O,

After more than a month in these boots for laminitis, it appears that Perry now has thrush, especially in the right foot.

I noticed some brittle breakage where the frog connects at the heel, and Perry was very sensitive about my touching this area.

He seemed also to react to my pouring of Betadine solution into the central crevice (both feet) as well.

Would pouring Betadine there cause a horse pain in the case of thrush being present?

Having read the articles, I am a little confused about whether I can use the Betadine and Tomorrow products or if I need to use the formalin products.

I hate to overuse products that are toxic or potentially carcinogenic if something else will work.

I am not seeing "pink" or "bleeding" but some peeling, plus this extreme tenderness in the one area.

Also, it is hard to know what exactly to treat though my instincts would tell me that the central area should likely be done, plus anywhere that is sensitive. Or should the entire frog be treated.

I cleaned and poured Betadine solution over the entire soles and frogs this morning.

It is also interesting to look at the photos in the articles because it is giving me some good insights into why Perry has had some past history of developing abscesses.

Now I am wondering if some things that I have treated as bruises in the past were actually areas of thrush.

No question he has some of those white line defects and has had suspicious-looking areas on his sole, especially in this currently more laminitic (RF) foot.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 4:14 pm:

Vicki Hank got a rip roaring case of thrush and the start of WLD when I kept him in boots and pads when he foundered he had never had a problem with these before. That is why I am not so fond of boots for long periods. I know you can't take Perry out of the boots yet, but I couldn't get Hanks under control until I removed the boots and pads for good....the thrush, WLD and foot not being able to dry led to more problems than his founder I think!

Sprinkling gold bond powder on his pads helped a little... good luck with this, it's hard when they are in boots
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 7:26 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

And now as I looked more closely at the situation this evening, dumping Betadine into the crevices and also onto the sensitive area again, I'm not so sure that the mechanics of the boots didn't cause the deterioration of the frog that I am seeing where it connects to the back of the foot on the RF.

Thinking of replacing the gel inserts that raise the heels to the standard ones, plus also more time out of the boots as soon as I get some fresh shavings on Friday delivery so that I can pitch all of the damp shavings.

Sometimes nothing seems to have a simple solution, does it?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 7:34 am:

Hello Vicki,
You horse would not be sensitive to you touching the horn nor pouring Betadine on the horn, with or without Thrush present. Remember Thrush is not painful, but if it exposes sensitive (bleeding) tissue that is painful. If you are uncertain that sensitive tissue is exposed Betadine would be the treatment of choice. If you remain uncertain what you are dealing with you should get your veterinarian out to help you with this.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 10:30 am:

Dr. O,

Nothing is bleeding, but the thin strips of the frog where it connects to the hoof are extremely brittle and some pieces have broken off so that the connection made by the frog is being severely undermined.

Could there be thrush under there or is this mechanical stress? Plus with the inserts to raise and support the heel, extra and hard pressure?

Perry is very tender to having this area touched (outside back edge of hoof -- where frog connects to hoof.

Maybe the boot is rubbing because they are too large?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 12:27 pm:

Well, the frog looks better already after a few applications of Betadine solution (more like it is all related to each other instead of the tendency for pieces to shatter off) but it is obvious that Perry has pain in the right rear area of his right front foot.

I took the boots off for an hour or so and put the other regular inserts into the boots before putting them on Perry again to see how much that might help over the next few hours.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 6:29 pm:

Dr. O, Reassessing the situation, I think that indeed the thrush did penetrate down to sensitive areas, but it is not bleeding. The location is where the frog runs up the back of the foot to the heel bulb, where there is now a bare area on each side.

The small areas look kind of yellow in color but also have sort of a transparency to them. I surely hope this doesn't turn into canker.

It looks sort of like thick (smooth surface) blisters or something, that could potentially open up.

I am putting Betadine on twice daily so hoping that the frog grows back.

Poor Perry does not seem to be as miserable since I changed the gel inserts of the boots.

The condition is still painful but it almost seemed a little less painful for me to touch it, even though these now-exposed areas look very concerning.

Perry's demeanor is a little bit brighter, I think.

I have ordered several tubes of "Tomorrow" and more Betadine.

There seems to be a similar problem on the left front foot but it does not seem to have penetrated as deeply.

The central area of the RF frog (Sulcus?) is also somewhat suspect.

Do you think that I ought to try to leave Perry out of the boots in deep shavings?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 6:58 pm:

Hi Vicki, Can you call your vet and ask about removing the boots..Your description sounds very similar to what happened to Hank when in boots for a long period.

Of course you should consult your vet if you are concerned, but if you read Dr.O.'s article on laminitis it says deep bedding is just as good as anything else...Sam did fine with it.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 - 7:20 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

I hope that this doesn't turn into something else serious for Perry!

It actually relieves me to hear that you had a similar experience with Hank when he was in boots for a long period.

I'm getting another big load of bedding on Friday.

I thought seriously about leaving the boots off of Perry this morning, but then when he had them off and remained glued to one spot, I thought that I had best put them back on.

Now that I have been treating the areas with the Betadine and put the other inserts in, he seems to be doing somewhat better, but I think that the boots are still perhaps rubbing the affected areas and also causing a lack of air circulation.

I'll be considering and experimenting with this more tomorrow.

If it is now something different causing the hoof stress, Perry needs some relief.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 6:40 am:

If indeed it is similar to Hanks, you will be surprised how quickly it clears up once the boots are removed. Here's a pic when he was in boots, you can see how his WL was turning thrushy and the bulbs scaly and black, the frog started "retreating"..I did apply betadine also, that's why his hoof has the orangeish glow. It got worse before it got better until the boots came off for good.

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 9:36 am:

Vicki, I cannot make the judgement to change the treatment of your horse but to the degree the boots trap moisture it will be easier to control the thrush with them off. You should consult with your veterinarian on specific treatment of your horse.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 11:19 am:

Thanks, Diane and Dr. O.

Dr. O, your thrush article is so good -- like so many of the others available to us as a resource. Really very helpful.

And Diane, You are a wealth of information and experience, and your photographic archives are so helpful too! Thank you so much for posting the photo. You have again helped me through your photos, just as you did when I was going through all of that frightening stuff with Lance.

Diane, Did you ever have to use anything other than the Betadine solution a couple of times daily to get the thrush totally cleared up?

I've got that "Tomorrow" stuff coming too, but don't know if that would be more or less effective for use at the back of the hoof?

I am very happy that since I changed the gel inserts in the boots (NOT what I was told to to at this stage by my Vet) that Perry's heal/foot pain, which really involved the entire inside back area of the RF, seems to have diminished, and believe this to be related to more than getting the thrush treatment started.

Though I've already read it several times, I'm going to read Dr. O's laminitis article again.

I'm going to have to have some more discussions with my Vet for sure.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 12:32 pm:

Vickie, I was just going to mention that we cut down the frog part of the boot inserts for Sahira and are using the same inserts now on Libby. I think those "one size fits all" have to be toyed with sometimes. In Libby's case, the height of the part that goes into the sulces of the frog were way too high; I suspect they are for Perry also. Glad you figured it out and hope Perry continues to improve. The thrush is actually easy to cure if you are dilegent. I've used Coppertox, Trushbuster, betadine, and in "the old days" clorox solution and all worked. I saw somewhere that a company is now making a paint on solution that doesn't run like the more liquid solutions do. I can't remember where I saw it. I use disposable gloves when I apply such things as I get tired of my hands looking red or green!

If Perry still needs the cushioning of the boots, you can clean out the areas of thrush, apply whatever solution you use, pack the areas with cotton or cotton gauze, and then put the boots on.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 5:40 pm:

Vicki wrapping Hanks hooves with the lil swimees diapers with medicated gold bond powder sprinkled on the diapers REALLY kept the moisture down...A LOT. I had to battle that thrush for a long time...I think by putting betadine on his hoof all the time dried the horn up too much and then his hoof became brittle and started breaking out... Personally after that I won't use boots for extended amounts of time. It was a worse mess then the founder itself.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 - 5:46 pm:

BTW once the boots came off I used Thrushbuster as directed and Tomorrow in between times...that's when I finally got it under control. His WL thrush was worse than the frog thrush...took quite awhile to get rid of that!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 12, 2010 - 11:28 am:

Sara, It will be helpful for me to tell my Vet that you had to cut those inserts down.

Perry had done so much better in those older boots that did not have the frog raised so high, and when it became obvious to me that he was experiencing heel pain and close to having to go back onto the Bute, I thought no harm in trying the other inserts, since previously he was in my Vet's boots that did not raise the heel that much. The laminitis inserts also have a harder material used under the heel portion.

I have also come to the realization that Perry, most of all, does not want to keep his right rear hoof raised off the ground to be handled for any period of time, and over this entire time I have also observed that he tries to rest the left rear quite a lot.

I really think that I am going to have to get to the bottom of what is going on in the rear before we can count on keeping the laminitis away in the front.

It also looked like Perry was starting out with a bit of Thrush on the rears too, though no boots in use there. Just a little bit in that central area.

My Vet and I need to have a good discussion and I think that Perry needs a very thorough examination of the entire hindquarter, including the rear feet.

Thank you Sara and Diane, for the great suggestions and help. You have both helped me more than you can possibly know.

I just cannot thank you enough.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 3:58 pm:

Laminitis and thrush update.

I took the regular gel inserts out of the boots and then could NOT get them back together. Upon leaving them off Perry for a while, I could soon see that he was actually more comfortable and moving around more without the boots.

In talking to my Vet, I found out that his reason for liking to keep the horse in the boots past the extremely tender-footed stage, is because this helps to stimulate the growth of new horn better than standing in deep shavings.

However, if they are just standing around in the boots, and crookedly at that, it is not helpful!

My Vet checked Perry yesterday and said that it is still too soon to try turning him out as he is still too sore on the right front when making turns.

The pulses are fainter than they had been.

It was not all in my head that Perry was very heel sore, especially on that right front foot and his right rear foot, as my Vet confirmed this, much to his surprise.

He has had horses in the boots for as long as six months without such problems though he has had some cases of heel soreness, but not to this degree.

While we continue to believe that there are issues in the hindquarter, my Vet did not want to do flexion tests at this time on account of the laminitis, and he also would not want to do any treatments involving steroids anyway as that would be bad with the laminitis.

It also turns out that Perry does NOT have thrush, according to my Vet. The damage to the frog has apparently been caused by mechanical injury in the boots, though we really can't figure out how and why that happened. I'm glad that I didn't apply any strong agents to the frog (and have this site and the good article to thank for that) as now my Vet has told me that use of any of those agents is currently not advisable. I don't even have to keep doing the Betadine applications.

I wonder if Perry might have had some thrush but it cleared up due to twice daily Betadine and also having the boots off for a few days?

My Vet was pleased with how Perry's weight has reduced, although we still have more to go.

He told me that based upon the blood test results, I may again give Perry his Corta-Flx.

I asked him about upping the amount of feed so that Perry would get enough vitamins but he does not want me to do this yet.

He remains more concerned that we get the excess weight off than he is about the present nutritional needs.

If Perry appears to be more sore on any given day, I am to give him Bute.

I am supposed to get some Farrier's Formula or a similar product to help with the foot growth.

Also, my Vet told me to call the boot manufacturer and tell them about the difficulty with getting the gel inserts back into the boots and that the size seemed so different from his size 6. My Vet couldn't get those regular gel inserts back into my pair of boots either. He said that they may call him to confirm these difficulties. He has bought boots from them over time and consulted back and forth with them regarding the product so that they know him.

My Vet says not to be discouraged because he would not yet expect it to be time to begin turning Perry out even though this laminitis is a relatively mild case.

So I have to try to be patient, which I am very bad at doing.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 4:37 pm:

Well that all seems good I was thinking about Perry today wondering how he was doing, so glad you updated. Your vet is quite conservative, which in the long run I'm sure is good.

Sam has been out 24/7 the last couple days and is doing well, he is moving better than Hank with his crooked hooves

I checked the bottom of Sams hooves and the bruising is gone..strange. His DP,s are also completely gone and have been for awhile.

I'm surprised Perry still has them, but as Dr.O. has tried to get through my head for 3 years they don't necessarily mean anything bad is going on. (which I still find hard to believe...but try to)
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 - 8:16 pm:

My Vet agreed that how the horse is moving is far more important than the DPs.

I think that he remains concerned about the pain level evident upon using the hoof testers as well as on the turns.

Perry had been doing the turns without this level of pain before he got his soles trimmed.

That really seemed to set our progress back, although we don't believe that it caused additional permanent damage.

Now if I could just learn how to be more patient and not become so totally absorbed in the trials and tribulations of a laid up horse. But that's not going to happen. Every time I've had an on-going, long term problem it has pretty much consumed me mentally, and my time.
Like it or not, it just seems to be how I am "wired." I am a very nervous "horse Mom."
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 7:42 am:

It is not necessary to choose between proper vitamin levels in the diet and decreased plane of energy to lose weight. But proper understanding of vitamin metabolism in the horse is necessary to properly address this. For more on this see, Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Vitamins for Horses, an Overview.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 - 11:35 am:

Thanks, Dr. O.

I will read and study this.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 5:22 pm:

My Veterinarian walked Perry around today including across the cement drive and he was sound, although there was some hesitation as he first got onto the cement.

He still reacts as showing pain with application of hoof testers to the RF.

Heel pain that I reported previously has resolved and as pain in the front feet diminished, Perry increasingly stood more normally in the hind.

X-rays show that as the RF foot has grown out, the amount of rotation is now scarcely noticeable, if it even is noticeable. It looks great.

There appears to be a good amount of sole between the coffin bone and the ground.

No gas pockets are shown on the X-rays.

Though there appears to be a minor amount of flare in the outside of the foot, X-rays show that he is standing level and well-balanced.

My Vet. says that it is fine to wait until the next trim cycle (approximately 4 weeks from now)and do a normal trim but going easy on the amount of sole taken.

It will not be necessary to take off extra heel for derotation.

My Vet pointed out that there is the appearance of some (minor) bruising as Diane observed with Sam. He said that we may see some evidence of blood inside the foot when he is trimmed. There is also the appearance of some extra (defensive?) growth in the area.

Perry is cleared to begin 2 hours daily of access to the paddock attached to his stall. The paddock is primarily fairly deep sand with some areas of turf.

I am to watch for any signs of soreness and after a week of 2 hours daily extend the turn out time gradually while planning to keep Perry confined to this area where he also has access as he desires to the large stall containing shavings for the next 30 days. Then I may be able to expand the area of turn out, though he suggests not turning Perry out at pasture with the other horses for another 90 - 120 days.

He does not want him running around much for a while yet.

My Vet will be back in June for the semi-annual vaccinations and we are going to wait until then to do the rabies shots for all of the boys. We put the rabies off in early January on account of the laminitis episode.

Perry still needs to lose some more weight although he has lost perhaps 40 - 50 pounds so far.

We expect a full recovery after Perry grows a new hoof!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 6:06 pm:

YEAH!! good news Vicki Probably a good idea to keep him off grass anyway. OR do you warm climate people have grass year round??

Shows the difference in vets, my vet likes them out and moving 24/7 once sound on soft ground. I guess there are different ways of looking at it.

Hope you are recovering too!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 9:52 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

I'm going to start slowly and monitor closely as I don't want to go backward, and I've had pretty good luck with this Vet and what he has suggested in the past.

I would feel better about things if Perry would quit reacting in pain to the hoof testers.

To take more weight off him I just about have to keep him separated from the other boys anyway.

When I have grass again will depend upon the weather and rain patterns.

This year we actually had a little that they were eating up until the end of last year, just before it got really cold in January, but most other years it is gone by October or November.

If we have late, hard frosts before spring, this can set the growth of the grass back very severely and our rainy season can sometimes be very slow to arrive.

One year I was still feeding hay into July because of DrOught.

We have had cold weather most of the time since the beginning of the New Year and even though we have had more rain than usual the cold and hard frosts have kept the grass from growing. Most of my Bahia grass is quite brown now. There are a few green blades in some of the more sheltered areas but most of them are very short. Certain weeds are growing quite nicely, however, including lots of Stinging Nettle.

As for me, I am feeling better again, but that has been the course of this infection for nearly five weeks, so am hoping that it lasts this time!

Thanks for your well wishes!

Tomorrow is supposed to be a rather nice day so I think that I will take a book up to the barn area and watch what Perry does while he is turned out for his first two hours.

We are expecting warm enough weather (FINALLY) next week so am looking forward to giving the horses some baths. Perry is the dirtiest from being stall kept even though I have brushed him every day.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 6, 2010 - 10:45 pm:

Vicki does Perry respond in both hooves to the hoof testers? Just at the toe?

They do get stinky and filthy when stall bound I can't get the dirt out of Sam's thick coat no matter what I do... should be real fun clipping him this year again....sigh. He isn't shedding a hair and the other 2 are by the handfuls...not a good sign. I should probably start now and maybe I'll be done by June. I love that icon LOL...so fitting with horses
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 10:25 am:

Vicki - glad to hear the good news. Best wishes for the future (for your own health also).

Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 6:26 pm:

Thanks, Lilo, I sure am hoping to be over this respiratory infection soon. It has been too long!

Diane, Perry had been responding in both front feet to the hoof testers, but not in the back feet. And yes, it was at the toes with the laminitis though he got very heel sore after a time in the boots.

He was always worse on the RF.

I don't think my Vet even checked the LF this last time that he was out since he was moving so soundly.

When I turned him out today Perry first enjoyed happy rolling (dirt bath!) several times and also spent some time racing from one end to the other of the paddock and back into the barn.

I was afraid that he wouldn't stop in time and hurt himself.

He was bucking and crow hopping.

Once he sampled a few weeds and realized there was really nothing to eat out there he didn't care that much about being out any longer.

I hand walked him in some other areas near the barn and he grazed on some short grass that seems to have suddenly grown a bit. When we crossed over the concrete wash rack in hot pursuit of blades of grass he never missed a step or showed sensitivity.

I will go gradually on this but don't think that it is going to be a big deal for him to be out.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 7:11 pm:

Doesn't sound like he is hurting too bad. I'm glad things turned out so well. Hank isn't real reliable with hoof testers, one day he'll flinch one day he won't

Kind of like his pulses I guess if he is moving well I don't worry ( as much)

Hubby has had that creeping crud for over a month too. He is just starting to feel a little better, can't believe I haven't gotten yet.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 - 11:42 pm:

That is a good observation, Diane. And Perry, being the smart boy that he is, would anticipate and expect the pain with the testers since it has been there lately.

When I put some hoof dressing on his feet today I noticed that on the RF there does appear to be some separation at the area of the white line.

Diane, Do try your best not to catch the nasty respiratory virus. If you get secondary infections it drags on forever.

A 47-year old school teacher just died in our vicinity a few days after her complications developed.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 6:26 pm:

Just an update about Perry.

He now has access to a paddock that attaches to the sick stall during the daytime hours so he can go in and out.

I hand walk him to graze a bit (not much grass but he finds a little) most days.

While sound most of the time, I do notice what seems like an occasional misstep with his right front seeming to cause him sudden pain.

When I let him loose around the barn one day he had more space to get up some extra speed and unexpectedly came cantering up the hill, looking good until suddenly his right front gave way and he partially went down.

That made me realize why my Vet did not want him to have any more space for now than the paddock, so will not let him loose beyond the paddock again until he is sound more consistently.

So apparently there is still some issue with the right front, but it is strange how it doesn't happen very often.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 9:40 pm:

Are his toes getting long Vicki? After Hank foundered he had what I called a stutter step on his Rt. front, it always bothered me, and never seemed to go completely away. Since getting his toe back and rockered I am not noticing it anymore. Didn't you say he had a bit of a stretched WL on the RF? I can't remember for sure. If he does, beveling (rockering) his toe might help.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 11:12 pm:

He hasn't had a great deal of growth but we did skip last trim cycle. The toes are getting a bit long.

I am glad that you pointed that out, Diane.

He will be trimmed the first week of April and perhaps that will improve his way of going!

Did Hank just have the "stutter step" once in a while with going normally most of the time?

Yes, I do think that the WL on the RF looks slightly stretched. This is in the same area where previously there appeared to be some separation, which seems to have fused back together.

The remodeling of horses' feet with illness, laminitis or injury never ceases to amaze me.

It makes me realize again how being barefoot allows flexing of the foot, making the healing and remodeling more unhindered.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 16, 2010 - 11:46 pm:

Right after Hank "got over his founder" the stutter step was worse, but yes he was fine in between it. It never did go completely away, but greatly improved and DrOve me nuts. It was just his RF... that's one of the reasons I called it the cursed hoof! Since I started beveling his toes(yes I am doing the RF this time!) it truly has disappeared, why he didn't do that on the LF I don't know. Probably just to drive me nuts... and it worked!... horses
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 - 10:27 pm:

Glad to hear Perry is doing better Vicki.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 7:26 pm:

Dr. O and others, Perry has been reluctant to lift his left front foot for cleaning for the past 3 - 4 days, which made me wonder whether I have tried too much turn out and walking exercise with him.

He moves okay in the stall or on the turf, even the concrete, though can suddenly seemingly experience pain that causes him to collapse the weight-bearing on that foot. The other day when I had him out for a walk he wanted to go down the hill on the concrete drive and this suddenly caused him to do a serious "stutter step."

Knowing that his toes are long anyway since he missed the last trim due to my Vet's advice, I decided to try my hand at a little beveling at the toe thinking that perhaps Perry was walking on his sole near the toe.

Doing this revealed a black line invading the entire width (perhaps even slightly beyond) of the white line, which seems to extend from an imperfection/crack in the outer hoof wall.

Now I am wondering if this needs to be taken back to a point where no black line is visible in the white line, and whether there is infection here that has perhaps been causing the toe area of this foot to continue to react to the hoof testers?

The white line looks bad on the other foot too -- lots of disintegration, but perhaps it will come right after a trim. The left front foot also has kind of a "blob" of horn material in the white line area, as described by Diane as existing in Hank's foot.

My farrier is due in about 2 1/2 weeks but I am wondering if I should have my Vet out sooner to dig this open?

My farrier doesn't seem to get overly concerned about cracks or black lines and perhaps I need to be more vigilant about them?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 8:28 pm:

Vicki does the black in the WL go all the way around his hoof or is it just at his toe?

The blob I can't help you with.

I will say Hank had a solid black line under a crumbling WL. The vet did dig it out best he could, of course I have a post in here somewhere about it. If I dug out the crumbling WL it revealed a black line going around his whole hoof.

Anyway I think that was the beginning of his WLD and crumbling, breaking away hooves. My farrier would not get aggressive enough with it. Finally about 8 mos ago I started digging it out the crumbling WL which revealed the blackline.. then as much of the black line as I could and dumped thrushbuster on it 3 times a week. That is when my love affair with thrushbuster started.. it cleared it up very nicely... I'll see if I have a picture BTW I attribute it to being in boots for a long period and yes if Perry has the same thing it does make them sore
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 9:01 pm:

Diane, The black line appears to go only from the toe and inward across (and possibly beyond) the white line. I am not thinking that this is WLD, however, am concerned about the problem.

I have to wonder if this problem was there when the laminitis began, or if it is a result of the laminitis.

This whole deal is requiring way more patience than I have.

If I were computer savvy, I would now post an icon tearing my hair out or slamming my head into a brick wall.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 9:08 pm:

You are in luck I do have a picture that shows it. You can see the black line at his toe and some of it under part of the crumbly WL I dug out on the sides

This is from 2007... it got worse before it got better



Close up of toe

Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 9:21 pm:

Vicki I am going to help you out since I know how frustrating this is... I am going on year 3 after Hanks founder! I am going to show you how to use these Icons...you are going to need them and it is VERY simple!!!!

Step one.... Right click on one of MY icons below

Step two... click save image as

step three..... click save in the thing that pops up.. I save my on desktop so they are easy to access (I need them alot)

Step four..... to get them on your post use the upload attachment option in HA, click on icon on desktop and there it is!




Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 9:24 pm:

PS I have more if you need them LOL
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 9:18 am:

Vicki, if you have a situation that seems serious to you and you do not understand what is going on we always recommend you get professional help out to examine the horse. I do not see anything in the above images that explains your horses odd collapsing behavior.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 3:44 pm:

Thanks, Dr. O

I will call my Vet tomorrow. If something needs to be dug out, now is the time to get it done since Perry is still somewhat confined.

This sudden mis-stepping with what is kind of a collapsing under seems very strange.

Diane,

Thanks for posting the photo of Hank's foot and for the icon advice.

I had managed to copy your icons and have been able to use them in some E-mails, but have never used the upload attachment option on HA, so need to expand my horizons, I guess.

That is a grand idea to put the icons on the desktop for easier use.

You have to be one of the best organized people who I know!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 5:14 pm:

Let us know what he says Vicki. I hope you don't have a "blob". I think Hanks may be on the way out!!!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 7:31 pm:

Will do, Diane.

This is all so strange. How can he walk normally for several steps and then suddenly it is almost as though his RF foot isn't working correctly? I've even seen him accidentally step on his LF with his RF. Sometimes it appears as though his joint isn't operating properly, but maybe sudden pain causes weird reactions?

This RF is the foot where he had cellulitis (last May, I think) so now I am beginning to wonder about that and whether the tendon sheath was somehow damaged, but there is no swelling where the puncture wounds were located.

There seems to be additional heat in the front feet today although he has not been turned out on account of three quarters inch of rain falling, although I did hand graze him on bits of grass a couple of times.

His heel bulbs seem rather swollen also and don't know if this is due to standing in shavings and picking up some bacteria?

Perry does indeed have a "blob" in the white line of his left front. It looks like a double ball of hoof horn, one portion of which is kind of hanging on there as if by a thread of some kind, rather than normal WL.

It seems like that ought to disappear when he is trimmed but it will be interesting to see whether it comes back if it is indeed a WL defect.

Perry has a long history of abscesses in his rear feet and also his RF, but really nothing with his LF previous to this laminitis.

It's so strange because the horn of his hooves seems so strong and hard, but when conditions are wet, his soles get extremely soft and squishy.

Sweet boy continues to be good-natured and loving, which is a good thing on account of his many long lay-ups over the years.

He has never been an easy horse to care for.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 8:18 pm:

Vicki,

What does he do when you boot him? Does he still act the same way?

I know when I have a sore that's bothering me, first I try to protect it ( that never works) then if I hit it on something it hurts like heck to the point where I see stars and I try to make the pain go away by putting it in a strange position until the pain stops. If Perry's toe is hurting, he may be going through the same sequence as I do even though he is a horse and I am a person.

Rachelle
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 8:27 pm:

He almost sounds IR or even has EMS the precursor Vicki. They are prone to all kinds of hoof problems including abscesses. Did you see my update on the EMS thread... a couple days of that short grass had Hank with big DP's and a little heat, and Sam teetering on laminitis again. (the slow careful walk) They are not even getting a bite of that stuff it is like poison to them.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 9:17 pm:

Rachelle,

When Perry was in the boots he kind of shuffled around and it was hard to read the situation as it depended upon the medications that he was on and the degree of inflammation.

I do know that my old paint horse Buddy will take a sore foot and absolutely bang it on something. Likewise with a belly ache -- he bangs his foot into the water tank denting it and then may have an abscess later.

Perhaps Perry is hyper-reacting when there is a jolt of pain and walking in such a way as to try to protect himself.

I damaged some ligaments in my toes a few years ago and it has come into my mind that when I step a certain way that causes pain, I probably react like Perry is when he is feeling a strong pain twinge.

Diane,

Perry has been prone to abscesses since he came to me and the Vet back when Perry was only 2 - 3 years old told me it was a lack in his nutrition (he was on straight oats with a note in the file that he did "not do well on alfalfa.")

Then a few years ago a holistic Vet from the University who came out to give him acupuncture to grow out his hoof after an avulsion diagnosed him as having some liver issues, though regular blood testing reveals no such problem.

He seems to have some on-going allergy issues the past few years with runny eyes and tear ducts that seem to clog. He also can become noisy in his breathing when he is eating off the ground sometimes.

Whenever I've gotten him going good under saddle he always breaks down for one reason or another -- usually having to do with his feet, although they look really good under the care of my current farrier.

He used to have a lot of quarter crack problems and heels that would break.

He has continued to have some abscess problems, though not to the destructive degree as when he was much younger.

He is quite finely bred, I think, to be a beautiful halter horse, and one must wonder if some of the breeding results in such health issues?

Because of how fat he was (he was a very hard keeper when I got him but has been an easy keeper for years) my Vet had told me that he thought Perry would have a high glucose level. The blood tests showed the opposite -- low glucose, though my Vet told me that didn't really mean anything more than that he does not have high glucose or IR. But then again, I'm realizing that there are often blood and other lab tests that have flawed results.

He has lost a fair amount of weight during this lay up with his rations being so greatly reduced. The fat pad above his tail is much smaller and his ribs are readily visible, in addition to being able to feel them.

He does still have some fat pads behind the shoulders but no cresty neck, but this is strange because years ago he used to have more fat deposits in his neck, but not above his tail as he now has.

He is does not have an overly prolific coat and is not sway backed.

He has had some issues with reaction to vaccination so I split my shots into two farm calls on account of his needs.

He is not an easy horse to maintain but he is a true sweetheart.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 6:52 am:

Vicki, EMS horses aren't hairy. Hank has EMS he doesn't need to be tested. He is an easy keeper, that collects fat pads and founders easily. He is not fat now, but is sugar sensitive and will always have to be maintained on a strict diet, that spring grass as non-exisistent as it is, was getting ready to send him over the edge again.

Sam and Hank also have normal glucose levels. It may be worth considering, with Perrys founder in the fall and his easy keeping ways. Once they founder or get laminitis they are way more prone to do it again... In Hanks case it was worse everytime he did. They can also get foot sore with out a full blown founder.

I am not saying Perry has EMS, but with his symptoms I would wonder.

Dr.O. has an article in here on EMS, it is not the same as IR or Cushings.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 12:08 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

I will read that right away.

Since last evening Perry has been acting as though he is having some ulcer pain again and is rather off of his hay.

He just doesn't seem to be feeling well.

He would not lift either front foot for me this morning. His front feet felt cool rather than warmer as they did yesterday.

When he had to make a turn to go back into his stall he again stepped on his LF with his RF foot, like his feet aren't cooperating with how they should go.

There was not that much grass out there but I had him out hand grazing for about a total of an hour and 20 minutes yesterday between rain, and now I am wondering if that grass helped trigger what is starting to be a new flare up. I did the extra time with him at the hand grazing because the paddock was wet on account of the rain so he had no free turnout time.

I put a call into my Vet and am waiting to hear back from him, and left him a message that he probably needs to look at Perry again.

I so didn't want to go backward with this situation, but that is how things are looking right now to me, and it is truly disheartening.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 12:50 pm:

The EMS article makes me feel that it is very feasible that Perry has this condition.

Thanks for directing me to this, Diane.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 8:56 pm:

My Vet must be having a really hard day because he has not yet called me back. The message that I left him did not state an urgent emergency situation but rather that I would like to talk to him and have him check Perry when he would be available.

Meanwhile, we have been chasing cattle out around the property!

My concerns about Perry's digestion are lessened at the present time, and in the deep shavings he seems to be okay.

It is worrisome, however, as I have realized that when stalled without much exercise, the digestion does not function as well as it should.

And things have regressed with the way that Perry is able to move,but perhaps this will be relieved when his feet are trimmed.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Mar 22, 2010 - 10:02 pm:

Nothings easy is it. Do you have any riding type boots with a pad that would fit him? I honestly think one of the things that helped Hank recover faster was taking him on long walks with his old macs and comfort pads on, on hard ground. He would start out looking wobbly and short and by the time we got back he looked great. Of course you should run something like that by your vet, but if he is able to move comfortably with boots I think getting the circulation going is good both for his hooves and his digestion. My vet believes in getting them out and moving ASAP when they are over the acute stage and off bute (at their own pace of course) I tend to agree, but there are many different trains of thoughts on that. When Hank foundered I never did stall him, just kept him in the drylot/paddock and he took care of himself. My biggest problem was getting his NSC's and weight in order.(still is)

Hope things turn around soon. I thought Perry would be over this way before Sam. Sam is doing wonderful at all gaits, and finally starting to shed. Maybe since his was caused by "suspected" poisoning it is different. I just beveled his toes yesterday and he took off like a wild banshee when I got done His hooves are MUCH less challenging than Hanks tho.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 8:35 pm:

It seems that Perry doesn't do so well in the boots that I bought for him but if needed I can probably borrow one of those older pairs again from my Vet.

Today I let Perry out in the paddock for just a few minutes after confining him all day yesterday. There's only a few small patches of turf out there with the rest of the ground being quite soft and sandy.

He is improved today, and although he didn't want to stand too long on the RF, at least he agreed to lift the LF and RF for me. Yesterday he refused to lift either front foot for me.

Naturally my Vet called me back this morning when I was out at a meeting and now he has not been able to get back with me again.

I would really like to discuss this situation with him and also have him check Perry and see whether the black in the WL needs to be dug out, and if so, the sooner the better.

On Friday I will be receiving delivery of some bags of Safe Starch grass forage, which is a product that I have used before that contains safe carbs and no molasses. It is very good for EMS, IR or Cushings horses.

I'm going to replace at least part of my hay (and grain) with this product.

It is highly digestible and I think that using it will help me avoid colic/digestive difficulties with Perry while he is still laid up.

I sure wish that I knew if it was the spring grass that set him off again or if the toes growing longer are much of a factor for him.

The article said that either may set up an incident in horses with EMS.

The fat pad above Perry's tail is getting gradually smaller, so that is a good thing.

He is way overdue for worming. I was going to do them all in late January or early February but held off when Perry came up with this problem.

Do you think I should continue to hold off on this?

Diane, I too thought that Perry would make much faster progress than this.

I am really amazed at how we keep having these setbacks.

It makes me very happy to hear that Sam is doing so well -- which reminds me that I must go see my new neighbor who just put 6 horses on the hill above our shared lake, to let her know that there are some very toxic plants growing on her new hilly pastures, especially in the wetlands.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 10:34 pm:

Hi Vicki, I've been following along but haven't had much to add to the discussion.

Suzy's progress has also been very slow. I'm finding it imperative to keep her toes short and beveled. She is getting trimmed every 4 weeks and can't go any longer than that at all. She also is still in her soft-rides. What is the difference between your vet's boots and your own?

Thanks for mentioning the Safe Starch Grass Forage. I had forgotten about that product.

At least its getting easier to care for our patients now that we arn't fighting freezing temperatures and frozen ground!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 10:44 pm:

Vicki if he has a defect in his WL it probably needs to be cleaned out it could be an abscess track, which would explain his "lameness". When my vet found that black line in Hanks WL he dug and dug following that black line all the way to his heel. The Wl on top of it was soft and "mushy" he did find a small abscess following the blackline, once he dug it out he did feel better. He wasn't "abscess lame" with it... just off.

I had hard time bringing myself to de-worm Sam too after his illness I was afraid of throwing his stomach out of whack again since he seemed to have "stomach distress" with the diarrhea, and the growling stomach. I got brave and de-wormed them all and he was fine... maybe ask your vet when you talk to him.

Good luck
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 10:52 am:

Jo Ann, my Vet's boots were considerably older (so maybe more worn down or with different "angles" with raising the heel?)

They also fit more snuggly. It seems that there have been some sizing changes made along the way with the product.

My Vet has had great luck with the boots on so many horses but saw for himself how heel sore Perry became in the boots that I had purchased.

I am very much hoping that not being trimmed is a big part of Perry's present poor way of going.

Diane, Perry has had abscesses in this foot before, and for the longest time before one was resolved he wasn't lame but didn't move around that much either. I strongly suspect there is bacteria in there that is causing a problem, even though there have been no "gas pockets" visible on the X-rays so far.

My farrier is terrific in many ways but does tend to leave a longer toe, and that certainly can predispose to cracks in the toe and then the bacteria traveling upward, especially when weather changes from dry to wet.

I still haven't been able to connect with my Vet again after leaving my last message that Perry was doing somewhat better but that I still need to talk to him. Maybe I didn't make it clear that I still very much want to have him looked at. Apparently since it is not an "emergency" we are on the waiting list. If it was an emergency and I said so, he would get out here, even if it was after dark.

This morning I picked up all remaining acorns out of the paddock (after observing that Perry is still foraging for any of those that he can find).

Upon letting him out into the paddock this morning Perry immediately set to eating some kind of small weed in one corner of the paddock that is all over in the pasture this time of year.

Having observed him, and after looking more closely in my paddock, I believe that I may have solved the question as to why Perry was off of his hay one or more days recently, which really scared me.

There are quite a few small nettle plants springing up, and without a doubt he has gotten into some of that while picking at what very few grass strands (and small weeds) are out there.

I removed some this morning (my fingers are still throbbing from wherever I accidentally touched the nettle) but there is still more to go.

I'm on my way back up there to check on him now.

Will let you know how it progresses.

Jo Ann, Hope that Suzy will begin to make more steady progress! It is so hard to be patient, and perhaps that is why Perry went backward. I tried to go too far too fast wanting to catch up with Sam's progress when things were looking good. But the ground where I was hand-grazing Perry is pretty hard, plus the grass may have been too much for him.

Thanks, Diane, For responding about the worming question. I know what my Vet will say as he never seems to worry much about worming at any time and sometimes has said to go ahead and worm, while Dr. O said to hold off on the worming, which more lined up with what my gut was telling me.

I'm going to try to get my courage up to go ahead with this.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 3:56 pm:

Do you have anything like Old Macs or Renegades that fit him? I walked Hank in the Old Mac's and turned him out barefoot. Keeping the toe back does help these guys a lot... as long as they don't do it like my farrier and leave him on his sole at the toe.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 5:28 pm:

I don't think any of the boots in my boot collection will fit Perry.

Isn't it amazing how many boots and saddles one can have but nothing works for some horses?

I may have to look into some -- or glue on shoes, if we don't find comfort when the toes are trimmed back.

STILL haven't heard back from my Vet!

I left Perry free to come and go from the paddock today (checked him twice) between my errands and meetings so hope that he is still managing okay.

On my way now to do the evening chores.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 7:30 pm:

Perry was none the worse for having access to the paddock during the daylight hours today.

But he obviously spent a lot of time in the big "sick stall" because that was where ALL of the manure was.

Increasingly I am thinking that it was not access to the paddock that made Perry sore again, but the grass and/or hand walking on harder turf that was too much for his system, plus the longer toes and perhaps the bacteria that has invaded his white line.

He has been coughing today because of the pollen count.

Like Diane said, nothing seems to be simple when it comes to horses!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 7:45 pm:

Vicki, you should see my night routine with Hank...Check digital pulses, look at his hooves shake my head and try to figure out WTH to do to them, check fetlock lump, run finger over ribs to make sure I can still feel them... stare at his body condition to try and figure out if he is fat or it's his hair. he loves every minute of it... I think he makes his DP's thump every once in awhile just to laugh at me
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:32 pm:

Vicki you are certainly dealing with lots of variables. Perry is lucky to have such a caring and observant owner looking after him.

I am definitely learning how important correct trimming and soft ground are to the comfort and healing of laminitic hooves.

Perhaps you could protect Perry's heels with some sheepskin pads to prevent rubbing until you find some better fitting boots.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 6:34 pm:

Well, new development today!

I've been checking Perry's feet every day, in fact did so before I went off riding this morning.

Then late this afternoon I cleaned them again with the idea of applying some hoof dressing.

The frog of the RF seemed strange and upon closer examination I was suddenly able to run my finger way up inside. It was as though the frog suddenly disintegrated. There also seemed to be some liquid draining. I scraped out quite a bit with my finger and poured some Betadine up in there.

His frogs have been hard and nothing like this on any of the other feet.

Was this an abscess, do you think? The smell was pretty bad, though not exactly the same as when the puss drained out of Buddy's foot at the Coronet band.

Now I really AM waiting for my Vet to call me back again (he phoned and left a message when I was out earlier).

I presume that he ought to check it and see whether anything further needs to be done plus let me know how to treat this!

So, was this a new abscess that fairly suddenly brewed up in there, or was some infection present all along?

I still need my Vet to check that white line situation also.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 6:36 pm:

Diane, Loved your description of your daily routine worries and checks with Hank!

Jo Ann, This boy seems to be my "problem child" and he has had more troubles than the others combined!

Its a darn good thing that he has a sweet and endearing personality.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 7:27 pm:

Is Perry walking any better Vicki? I tell ya once they have laminitis or founder their hooves go through some pretty ugly changes... frog included.

I wonder if since Perry had the raised heel pad and more pressure on his heels that it could have formed an abscess? or possibly some nasty thrush.

I think it is a good idea to have your vet check it out.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 9:16 pm:

Diane,

I've not tried walking Perry any more after he had been going so very poorly but left him to his own devices with access to the paddock and stall again today.

Vet called me back tonight and we discussed the situation. He told me to soak for 15 minutes in water with enough Betadine solution to make it tea-colored.

Perry is an old pro with soaking so that was easy.
After I had soaked and removed his foot from the pan I could see more puss-colored stuff in there.

I poured a little Betadine solution in the hole and wrapped with Vet Wrap over a sterile gauze.

What a job with my eye sight after dark, even though I have lights in my barn. I think I got all of the Vet wrap backed off of his coronet band.

Vet is coming out tomorrow afternoon to check this out and I also told him that I think that he should rasp at the toe so he can check that black line to see whether it needs to be dug out.

Now is the time to address any such other issues!

It is looking like this is an abscess that followed the laminitis, according to my Vet's first reaction.

Makes one wonder though -- which came first!?! Could the laminitis have been brought on by a brewing infection that his immune system was fighting?

If the cause of his funky walking and reluctance to stand on either front foot on Monday was caused by this brewing abscess, that would be a better thing than an answer that the grass caused it.

It seemed to me that he wasn't really back to being laminitic again earlier this week, but was extremely close to it firing up again.

I never really wanted to know this much about horses' foot issues!

One way or another it seems that I am going to learn about any possible malady that a horse can possibly experience in a lifetime.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 10:28 pm:

Vicki,

Actually, I think that abscess was hiding in Perrys foot the whole time and it was the walking on hard ground that made it pop. If you think about it even though Perrys frog was hard, that is really the path of least resistance when you are having a problem like this and better it come out here than blowing a hole in his sole.

It probably did not need much pressure to blow out. In my experience with racehorses many of them pop abscesses after a race or a hard workout. It's as if the pressure and the gravity force it out.

I hope once this is cleaned up, Perry will be on the way to a full recovery.
Rachelle
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 6:34 pm:

Well, my Vet came out this afternoon.

He said that indeed it is an abscess that blew out of the right front frog and the likely cause of Perry's worsened condition. Hard to say how long it was in there and he acknowledged that it could even have been brewing before, and possibly have caused the laminitis. He dug the infection out further (it was really deep). All that I have to do now is clean it out twice daily for 3 days and pour Durasole in there. Then once daily for a week, or until all is good and firm again. He said that when they blow out at the frog it is not as difficult to care for as a sub-solar abscess. This one can be left open (glad about no need for further bandaging) and Perry can have access to the paddock according to his prior instructions as long as the conditions out there are dry.

Next he cut into the other frogs and found infections (but not abscesses) brewing in them too (worse in the other front foot upon which he also wore a boot for sometime, than the rear feet), but thought this likely was from his confinement, in spite of me keeping the stall very clean and dry (and my Vet complimented me on this). These other feet need to be treated once daily for a week. The insides of these frogs were all white inside.

A lot of frog was removed from all feet and this is interesting because both the Vet and farrier had looked at them fairly recently and because of the external appearance both said no thrush was present, but my Vet believes this to be a bacterial infection.

He did not do anything to check on the black line that runs into the white line and is going to wait on that until after Perry is trimmed, which will be in 10 days. If the crack and black is still there after the trim, he will drill it out.

Thanks, Rachelle. It is really kind of a relief to have had this abscess pop.

Although my Vet wants me to continue to reduce Perry's weight further, he is not prepared to diagnose any metabolic condition at this time.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 6:43 pm:

Interesting... thanks for the update, hope Perry will recover quickly now
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:14 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

I am still concerned about the possibility of EMS and whether I have found the answers about Perry.

He has been prone to abscesses since he arrived at my farm at two years of age and it seems that there are still mysteries about why he has been such a challenge to keep going on all four feet!

This situation with the frogs amazes me and makes me wonder if courage to cut in there and check it out (though external appearance seems fine) may be indicated more frequently than happens?

I will post any pertinent information as things progress.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:24 pm:

Vicki I don't understand what your vet means by a bacterial infection...isn't that what thrush is??

OR did you mean he did think it was thrush?

The first line in the thrush article
Thrush is a common bacterial infection of the horny parts of the sole. Usually the frog is infected but the sole and/or white line can be involved.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 8:03 pm:

Diane,

He did not think that it was thrush and thought that it was more related to a quittor type of infection but I don't understand this as my understanding of quittor was quite different as I thought this would be found in the cartilage, so I questioned him about whether I should think this infection extended into the cartilage, which he does not believe to be the case.

I've read some things that say thrush is fungal or a combination of fungal and bacterial, but my Vet does not think that it is a fungal thing.

I guess the bottom line is that the exterior of the frog looked fine to my Vet and farrier but there indeed was infection brewing further below the surface.

And with the RF, perhaps the infection started in that white line? Then again, last summer Perry had a soft sole, which if I am not faulty in my recollection, having since seen more photos, looked exactly like what has been described, I think in the HA articles, as a thrush infection on the bottom of a sole. Perhaps I am entirely wrong here, but I think that this is what I recall. So maybe it is a thrush type of infection and it may have started long ago in the white line and/or on the sole.

I just hope that we are on the right track and can get this healed up.

There is just so much to know and learn, isn't there?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 11:10 am:

The deep hole in the RF was closed up tightly this morning after my Vet dug it out and treated it yesterday afternoon.

There is still a bad smell present with this foot, though I don't know whether anything can drain any further?

The other 3 feet did not have a bad smell at all.

I sure hope these frogs get healthy again.

Perry is still uncomfortable when being asked to stand on that RF, so I hope that there is not remaining infection that will have to come out from somewhere.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 12:14 pm:

Wow that closed up fast! Wonder if that is a good thing? After Hank foundered (his 1st bout of laminitis) he blew out 3 abscesses in about 6 weeks One at the coronary, one at the heel bulbs, and on by the frog. He was never "dead lame" until the one at the coronary started getting ready to "pop" He remained "slightly off" for quite awhile after that happened.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 3:28 pm:

It is probably a good thing that my Vet didn't come out until the next day after it burst, and that I had at least left it open under the bandaging after I soaked it. It certainly does concern me that it has not drained enough, but when Buddy popped one on the Coronet recently, although it seemed to close up quickly it would still manage to drain (of course there was still kind of a crack there!) so it will be interesting to see whether this will crack open at all. It looks very tightly closed right now!

Perry's heel bulbs had looked extremely swollen just a few days prior to this bursting out of the frog.

It would not surprise me at all to have some more pop out somewhere.

Perry had one come out at the Coronet once well after having a sub-solar one dug out three times. In fact, that was in this same RF foot that had back then been diagnosed with laminitis but nerve blocks established it as an abscess instead.

His feet look pretty terrible presently. The back of each foot looks kind of distorted, as though the hoof capsule has changed shape and elongated.

The very top portion of his hooves also appear to be slightly larger that the main lower portion, if this makes any sense. Almost like there is a belt or something around the tops that makes for a bit more width.

It would all worry me a lot more had I not seen the amazing remodeling that Lance's feet went through as he was recovering from his serious illness.

Really Weird!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 5:24 pm:

Vicki it sounds like he is getting the typical laminatic hoof, flared at the bottom, and elongating. You have seen the struggle I have had with Hanks hooves, of course he had more rotation too. Sam's hooves are doing the same thing, it's been long enough now since the initial insult that I can see the toe flare, both of these horse will get sore if the toe is left too long. I need to get after Sams a little more. His is much easier to work with than hanks, his WL isn't nearly as stretched. Hoping keeping a bevel on it it will grow back OK.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 6:48 pm:

Interestingly, when I poured the Durasole into the abscess area this afternoon, although it looks closed up, the liquid product kept disappearing with me putting in more and more, so apparently there is some permeability.

Your Hank and Sam give me hope, Diane -- just as your photos and history of Hank did when Lance's feet were doing such strange things.

Had I taken twice daily photos of Lance's feet remodeling, it would have been an interesting transition indeed.

He too had that look of the hoof being broader at the top near the Coronet band, at the area of the heel and somewhat forward thereof, and directly below that it looked constrained, as Perry's hoof now does.

I sure hope that I am doing the correct treatment.

My farrier would have had me pack the abscess hole with Boric Acid. Before E-mailing my farrier, I had thought of packing the abscess site with with some of that Miracle Clay for further drawing. But I had to decide to trust my Vet's advice.

If I had some Clean Trax (K.C. LaPierre), I would have been very tempted to use that.

My farrier will probably give me an earful when he comes. He has examined a lot of cadaver hooves when he trained under K.C. LaPierre, and I trust him a lot too!

Having first called my Vet to see what needed to be done, I felt that I needed to follow his advice. I've had so many bad emergencies over the years, I really need to know that I can count on my Vet to show up when I truly need him.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 2:18 pm:

Poor Perry.

After I pour the Durasole into the RF foot it must be painful as he cringes, and he tends to begin pawing with the foot after it is put back down.

He was even more reluctant to stand on the RF this morning.

I think he may again be having heel bulb pain in various feet, perhaps due to some bactierial/fungal activity?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 2:38 pm:

Vicki I think durasole may be too caustic for sensitive tissue, I would go back to betadine and see if the reaction goes away.

You guys sure a being "put to the test" aren't you?

Why do you think he is having heel bulb pain? Are you still using the boots at all?
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 8:16 pm:

No, not using boots since whenever I took them off for good, but the heel bulbs have been going through their own seemingly rapid transition.

For a while (very recently -- as in days ago) the tissue there looked thin and abnormal, then heel bulbs looked swollen followed by what looked like normal tissue developing.

But then the horn began to take on a white look. Perhaps this is because of dry conditions, but I feel like it may be something more because I can tell that there is again an increasing sensitivity.

Tonight I smeared some of the "Tomorrow" stuff on all of these areas, and I didn't add any more Durasole into the RF tonight because it seems plenty dry to me already.

Where it previously seemed to be sucking up the Durasole, I think now it seems like overkill.

I so want this sweet boy to begin to heal!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 10:09 pm:

Vicki, I hope Perry begins to mend too. Just going from your description it does sound like he is still recovering from wearing boots for so long.

That's why I was so adamant about not putting Sam in boots, after I had all the problems I had with Hank from them.

All the stuff you are putting on perry is very drying(other than the tomorrow) and can cause problems in itself once again JME with Hank.

If his abscess seems to be done draining and closed and his thrush is under control maybe just giving his hooves a break from everything and see what happens. The Tomorrow is all I used after I saw what the drying affect did to Hanks hooves (and it wasn't pretty). I to used durasole for his soles and betadine and iodine. I still use thrushbuster, but sparingly as needed... I learned
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 10:32 am:

Thanks, Diane,

I guess that it is one day at a time with trying to use the best possible judgment.

Perry seemed a bit less sore on the heel bulbs this morning.

I did pour some Durasole onto the frog area of the RF (after skipping last night) and he was stomping his foot in the shavings after I did it.

There is still a bad odor with the RF foot.

No turnout today for him -- too wet outside.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 2:08 pm:

My farrier trimmed Perry yesterday.

He had been over-reaching badly when I hand-walked him and had continued to not want to stand on his RF.

It had been 10 weeks since his last trim because we skipped that one trim cycle.

As I had mentioned before, his hoof capsules looked distorted -- kind of elongated looking.

My farrier said that the front feed indeed appear to have gone through a bout of laminitis.

The heels appeared as though very under-run.

My farrier took his rasp and laid it across the portion of the heels that hits the ground first to show me that the problem actually was that his heels were too high and needed to be taken down and that this is what has been causing the problems at the toe as high heels cause greater stress at the toe.

At first he was reluctant to do what needed to be done and suggested that I could walk him on the cement every day to wear this down because all of the feet are well-balanced.

He told me that it was very likely that Perry would become sore from the remedy, which was to take the heels down.

After discussing this he relented and ran the rasp across the heels 3 - 4 times on each foot, lowering them.

Perry walked kind of funny for his first steps after the adjustment.

If he becomes sore I am supposed to give him some Bute and keep him going.

My farrier prefers that Perry have normal turnout (NOT what my Vet prefers for now).

I explained that I would be afraid to let him out on too much grass all at one time.

I put up some temporary electric fencing on those plastic, stick-in-the-gound poles to expand his turnout territory to what I thought acceptably larger and plan to gradually expand the space. When he wishes, Perry can still go into the barn and stand in the deep shavings where there is some hay in a slow down hay bag..

I've also hung a slow-down hay bag from a tree out in the paddock.

This afternoon I will try to hand walk him with his grazing muzzle on.

He seems to be doing okay so far and I am positively amazed at how much his feet have already begun to remodel in only one day post-trimming.

For the past two or 3 days since he has had more turn out, Perry has sore areas on the tissue above the heel bulbs of both front feet -- especially the RF. I am not quite sure what to make of it and had been applying Nolvasan ointment to try to heal and loosen, but the problem is not clearing up.

Perhaps I will next put him on the wash rack and scrub with some Betadine scrub but maybe this was caused by some Durasole possibly running higher up than it was supposed to go, in which case that would not be a good remedy.

He still has some soreness between the heel bulbs of his front feet (especially the RF) and I am hoping that no infection is remaining there.

After being unwilling to pick up his left front for me and stand on his RF for several days, Perry immediately picked it up for my farrier the first time that he was asked, but was less willing to do so the second time.

Maybe this is due to the soft tissue soreness now present above the heel bulb and the touchiness in the crevice between there on his RF.

I have continued to wonder if Perry is going to pop another abscess, but my farrier doesn't think so.

"The Blob" in the one white line is gone for now, I think.

Where I had rasped at Perry's RF toe and found the white line somewhat stretched and invaded by the black line, that looks much better! My farrier said that nothing there needs to be dug out.

Perry's gut had slowed down a great deal and he was tending toward impaction on Saturday so I had him out extra time on grass that day, the next and yesterday. Now his gut seems to be working okay again, thankfully! I think that the second night he had access to the paddock all night (Friday) he perhaps became frantic because the others were out of sight, or because he was colicky, because Saturday morning he was covered with dry sweat.

Never a dull moment!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 4:07 pm:

Never!!! Glad Perry is doing well
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 6:28 pm:

Thanks, Diane.

I thought that he was, but have since realized that his digestion has slowed way down again and there has not been much output over the past 24 hours.

After watching him 3 1/2 hours I got one small pile that was quite hard in consistency and he is showing some subtle early signs of ulcer (or colic?) pain.

And "the blob" is not gone. What I had seen before was truly the "tip of the iceberg." Wedged into the left front white line (toe area) there is a whole rectangle of what appears similar to outer hoof wall! I guess I just didn't look closely there yesterday and will have to ask my farrier about this.

He's walking very strangely now since being trimmed, but it does not change on the cement surface so I hope that it is because of the angle changes and that he will be better rather than worse soon.

I let him out on the larger grassy area this afternoon, and not much worry of him running around as he moves in a calculating manner. He is not electing to stay out on grass more than 1 - 2 hours at a time, and returned to the barn of his own choosing.

I don't want to try to give him any Bute on account of past difficulties with it unless absolutely necessary.

I scrubbed off the lumping stuff from the back of the RF above the heel bulbs and am quite sure the problem was caused by burning of the Durasole, because there was a straight line up from between the heel bulbs. Kind of a chemical burn, I guess, but it was swollen and looked like it was trying to turn into a case of "scratches" around the straight line that showed up after I scrubbed the area.

Tonight I am going to have to make some checks on him every 2 - 3 hours, I think, on account of the digestive situation.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 7:21 pm:

The blob is just the tip of the iceberg, if it is anything like Hanks. Once they founder the battle begins until a new hoof is grown out...in my case many new hooves.

Hope you and Perry have a quiet night!!! We had a small tornado go through here last night and sounds like more to come tonight...glad I don't have to check horses
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 6, 2010 - 8:20 pm:

I just checked Perry and he has had further output and this is a big relief, though the manure is about as hard as bricks. It makes a huge "thunk" when it DrOps into the wheelbarrow.

Hope that the weather does not treat you badly, Diane.

It has been hard duty with the horses for me so far this year, but it could certainly have been worse!

Hoping to be able to ride Lance tomorrow for the fourth week in a row.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2010 - 9:37 am:

Vicki - just wishing you good luck with Perry. I hope that his digestion gets back to normal - it is such a worry with horses.
All the best,
Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2010 - 6:14 pm:

Thanks, Diane and Lilo.

It appeared that Perry spent most of the night out on his pasture area (judging by the manure piles).

He can select whether he wants to be in or out, and seems to decide to hang in the barn during the daytime hours.

This is when his digestion seems to really slow down.

It is cooler in the shade of the barn and there are no beds of ants to bite as out in the pasture.
(Need to figure out a safe way to get rid of some huge ant beds).

I got Perry out for a couple of hours late this afternoon on some other pasture.

After a couple of hours he had enough and wanted back into the barn.

At times he still shows some signs of having ulcers bothering him, and perhaps he should have been kept on the Gastro Guard longer until he was further along with this stressful time.

He is still walking a little funky. On the front he is paddling out a bit at times but doing quite a bit better than yesterday.

I can see how much his feet/soft tissue have already remodeled. They look so much less distorted already and the heel bulbs are less sensitive.

Still have a ways to go with the right front especially, but I am feeling more optimistic again!

We've made it through two days after his trim so from now on it perhaps will only get better and better.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2010 - 6:44 pm:

I hope it continues to improve!! you and Sara W are way over due for a run of good luck!!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 7, 2010 - 7:16 pm:

Thanks, Diane -- Will let you know how it goes.

No one has paid their dues more than you with regard to successfully addressing and struggling through problems.
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2010 - 7:12 am:

...keeping my fingers crossed, Vicki, that Perry continues to improve.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2010 - 12:20 pm:

Thanks, Fran!
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2010 - 12:53 pm:

Vicki how is Perry drinking? You mention hard dry manure, that combined with the gradual minor colicy symptoms to me would point to mild dehydration/impaction rather than ulcers. Of course if he has a history of ulcers, that plus his recent term of lock-up points that direction.

Regardless sounds like you are very on top of the situation and nothing is going to get by you ;)
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2010 - 2:55 pm:

He's doing much better with the drinking these past couple of days.

Our nights are not quite as cool now, and the days are warmer.

Thanks for that reminder though. I think that I will put some salt in his food today if he won't accept any from me.

I had to remove the plain loose and mineral salts from Perry's stall because a pesky rat keeps defecating in my mineral feeders and food buckets, so I have been offering Perry the salts out of a pan but removing it and this is not as good as him having salt available whenever he wants it. He always drinks extra after he eats some salt.

Perry's manure quantity has increased, but it is still on the hard side.

Earlier today I ordered a couple of those Himalayan salts on a rope.

This rat has become my nemesis, creating extra work for me each day, which I don't need, as I gave up on leaving food buckets hanging and have been placing clean ones in there and removing them at every feeding time.

First time in 17 years that I've been bothered by a rat!

Perry did have some ulcer problems this year and I think that he is subject to being bothered with them quite easily when stressed in some way.

I'm headed up to check on him now.

Thanks again.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Apr 12, 2010 - 6:01 pm:

Perry's way of going seemed to be gradually improving but now he is again showing the signs of sudden tendency of the RF foot to fall out from under him as he did in the days before he popped the abscess out of the frog.

He has again become very sensitive in the area above the heel bulbs.

Above the heel bulbs and where that crack is between them is an area of redness. It no longer extends upward in a tall line as previously.

I washed the area with Betadine, dried, applied Triple antibiotic ointment and Desitin.

This evening he was rather militant about having the RF handled -- didn't want it messed with.

While I haven't been worrying about Perry tearing around because he has been only walking with deliberation (the earlier toeing out gave way to kind of a shuffling), at one point today when I had him out loose on a larger area of grass he cantered up the hill but couldn't go too far on account of how I had it electrically fenced off.

When I went to bring him back up to the barn because rain had just started, I walked him where the hill grade caused his RF to be the uphill foot. This resulted in some head-bobbing as he walked.

For the most part it does not seem that his way of going changes on cement and he does not hesitate to walk on or stand on it of his own choosing, which makes me more hopeful that laminitis is not active again?

His overall demeanor seems pretty good and mostly he stands well too -- not like when he had the active laminitis.

Since his being trimmed a week ago, I have noticed that he now has a very thick amount of false sole.

On the foot least-affected (LR) when he had the laminitis, it appears that the false sole is already working toward shedding because the edges are now visible. On the RR, cracking has begun in some places.

On the front feet, the false sole does not appear to be as thick (perhaps it is still forming?)

Before the false sole arrived the white lines did look stretched.

The shape of the feet and position of the heels has improved but the most-affected RF has kind of that laminitic-looking bell/cone shape to it and it is being the slowest to return to normalcy.

It is just a day at a time trying to decide whether to enlarge Perry's turn out area or not, whether to try soaking the RF or what to do if this is another abscess brewing.

Since the pain is so high up on that RF I don't know whether this is anything that could be pared out? And now there is all of that false sole.

Perry has been increasingly selecting to spend more and more time out on grassy areas when given the choice. This has resulted in his ulcer/colic symptoms declining.

A long haul since January 4th!

Perry so much wants to return to his herd, but it does not seem to me that this is possible yet for a number of reasons.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2010 - 7:02 am:

Vicki how is he on tight turns? Hank got a lot of false sole after his founder also, I wonder if it is a type of protection. He was much more comfortable after it fell out.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2010 - 12:40 pm:

Diane,

It seemed like Perry was pretty good on sharp turns this morning.

I again washed the backs of his feet above the heel bulbs, put on ointment and Desitin, and the red area has further diminished.

He seemed to be walking quite well -- didn't hesitate to, on his own, cross the cement and wander around further from the barn.

Then after he had been out on grass for about an hour and a half and headed back toward the barn I could tell that he was really winching on the concrete with the RF.

This is how he got more and more tender on that RF foot before the first abscess popped.

It sure seems like there is still some infection in that foot and I am going to have to be careful that he doesn't get really 3-legged on me, bringing on another laminitis bout.

After beginning to move my electric fence earlier this morning to enlarge Perry's turnout area, I changed my mind and put it back as it has been for the past week.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2010 - 6:50 pm:

Perry was moving better this afternoon when I again allowed him some temporary freedom and access to extra grassy areas.

I am going to have to be careful that he does not begin gaining weight!

The grass isn't really long enough yet to successfully try out the grazing muzzle.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2010 - 7:04 pm:

YES be careful! I have been letting mine out for 4 hrs. a day..hardly any grass in there BUT VERY green.. I think Hank has put on 50#'s already and I am working his butt almost every night...sigh. I need to skim back I think
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 13, 2010 - 7:27 pm:

They can put it on fast with grass.

In spite of what my Vet said I remain concerned about EMS as Perry has had some of those symptoms over the years.

Ever since he was a young boy (2 years) he has had problems with abscesses although his feet really look to be strong and beautiful.

There must be some explanation about why some horses have so many problems.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 6:42 pm:

A week ago I hand-walked Perry up and down the length of my concrete drive (quite a distance) two days in a row, in the hope that if he had another abscess brewing that the pressure might help it open.

I could tell that he was uncomfortable on the cement on the second day.

By the next morning he had shed the false sole off the inside half of his left rear, which was his least affected foot.

This Tuesday morning after hours of pawing (due to his choke episode) on the prior day, the outside half of the false sole fell off of Perry's left front in one piece when I cleaned that foot.

There was a bad smell between the two layers!

There is no question that some of Perry's foot soreness on the front has been due to chemical burns from the Durasole that ran up too high.

He seems to be doing better now with me handling his front feet though he does still behave as though there is some tenderness in the heel bulb area of the right front. This foot is being the slowest to come around. The shape at the hoof bulbs and downward is still distorted.

As Perry has been out more and lost the false sole on part of the left front I am beginning to think that part of the reason that he was so reluctant to stand on that foot and hold up his RF was because an abscess was brewing in the LF and perhaps has now drained a bit?

His heels have come up and under much more normally, especially on the rear feet. But he has developed additional flaring.

All of this false sole seems to make it rather hard for him to get around in a totally normal fashion.

The outer hoof wall seems to be growing fast, as though it is trying to catch up with the depth of the false sole, and it sticks out very far beyond the sole where the false sole has shed off.

Now I can see that it appears that he has the "blobs" invading both of his front feet in the white line.

My Vet says that I will see a lot of interesting developments as his feet go through this process.

When Lance was gravely ill and developed the false sole, his outer hoof wall and foot shape did not flare outward like this, but just grew downward.

False sole is such a strange thing.

My Vet said a case of choke is not a welcome visitor when fighting laminitis, but he was pleased to see Perry's body condition. Perry has lost about 75 pounds.

A few times I have seen him canter just a short distance, and he didn't look too bad. There doesn't seem to be much risk right now of him running around too much though. It is just too difficult and uncomfortable, I think, though I don't believe that the laminitis is active.

The possibility of continuing infection/abscesses seems not yet out of the question, but things are certainly improving as he is no longer extremely militant when I try to handle his feet and ask him to stand on one or the other front foot.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 10:58 pm:

Progress. Long haul for both of you, hope he is back to 100% soon!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 6:59 am:

Thanks, Diane!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2010 - 7:45 pm:

It is now easy to handle Perry's front feet as he no longer fights to slam them down.

The tenderness that had been continuing in the area of the heel bulbs on that right front foot is no longer an issue.

15 days after my farrier took three or 4 swipes on the under-run heels, they have come back under him to a better position and the previously twisted looking right front (inner heel bulb actually looked higher than the outer on that foot) now looks normal.

While the false sole that remains is wearing somewhat around the edges, no more large pieces have yet fallen off, perhaps due to our sandhill environment.

I feel like we have made substantial progress though Perry still cannot get around normally due to the false sole falling off on the outer half of the left front and the inner half of the left rear, making him very unlevel on hard surfaces..
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 6:57 am:

Vicki that false sole was a pain with Hank also! It did seem as if he needed it for awhile tho for protection. It did get to the point that it seemed to put too much pressure on his CB and it got very thrushy between the false sole and "new sole" he improved greatly once it fell out...with a little help from me.

Sounds as if you are just going through "founder fallout" as I call it and things are on the upswing finally
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 2:49 pm:

Yes, Diane,

I'm thinking that if he grew it he needed it for protection.

It's just weird how it is coming off from half a foot at a time with so much time passing without the other side also coming free.

And very interesting how with the right front, which was the biggest problem, the false sole isn't close to shedding at all, or even wearing around the edges.

"Founder fallout" is a great description.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 3:16 pm:

Vicki I have come to the conclusion that they really don't "grow" extra, it just doesn't exfoliate as it should, due to lack of movement (from when he was stalled during the founder) and being cooped up after the founder.

Hanks really started falling out when I started hand walking him on the paved road small stretches at a time. The trhush under it was pretty bad and a pain to get rid of.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:34 pm:

Hmm. That's an interesting observation, Diane.

Strange thing is that it almost seems to come on overnight the way it bulges downward.

And in Perry's case it became prominent just days after he was trimmed.

I've talked to many people who have had horses for decades including those who have been or are breeders. Also some who have had cases of laminitis. None of my friends or acquaintances have ever had this happen with their horses but here I have had it on two different (though related) horses in differing circumstances.

For the farrier and Vet it seems to be no big deal. I don't know what to make of it!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 5:29 pm:

Another small piece of false sole fell off of Perry's left rear foot when I was cleaning his feet.

As with when the large (half a foot size) piece came off the left front, there was a strong, bad odor between the two layers.

Now that Perry's summer coat is growing in I can see that it is longer, rougher and thicker than his normal summer coat, and less shiny.

Usually his summer coat is sleek and very shiny.

My other horses, though older, have shed out in a better way with better looking coats.

This worries me about what else may now be going on metabolically.

They are overdue for worming but that ought to effect all of them, I would think.

Is it normal to have shedding problems and a rougher coat post laminitis?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 5:50 pm:

Vicki I don't think laminitis affects the coat, Hank has foundered or had laminitis several times and his coat is one of the nicest around.

As you have seen my mare Flash seems to be having laminitis for really no apparent reason.. nothing that has affected her before anyway. She has a nice summer coat under her winter coat, but she is not shed out half as much as the others. She has had subtle signs of Cushings for awhile now that I have run things through my mind.

With Perrys abnormal fat deposits and his bout of laminitis in the fall I would be tempted to do more testing if that's what you need.

I know you said your vet checked his glucose and that was normal, but I wasn't so sure what that proves Sam had normal glucose too. I do remember my vet checking Sam years ago when I suspected he had cushings and all he checked was his glucose (not his insulin) and said he was fine his glucose was normal. He said that's how they tell if they have cushings... an elevated glucose level... Since I have researched this I see no evidence of that. Dr.O.'s article says that "symptoms" can be as good as diagnostic as anything.. There is the acth test, not sure how reliable that is.

I hope Perry doesn't have CD, but he is showing some of the symptoms of that and IR.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 6:29 pm:

Diane, Perry actually tested negative for glucose at all and upon reading Dr. O's or other articles I have discovered that this result can go along with EMS -- a negative sugar situation.

This sweet horse has never been very robust. Always broke down any time that I got him going good for a while.

He has had a growth on his nose ever since he was 2 - 3 years old, which I always figured was a wart but upon closer reading of the articles, perhaps it is a mole.

Now I am hoping that there is not a cancer going on there.

It seems that there is more going on than "meets the eye."
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 6:25 pm:

My farrier came and trimmed today, five weeks after our last trim.

He was very pleased with the progress shown in his reading of the feet.

Much more of the false sole let loose as he was trimming.

He said that false sole is "retained sole" while acknowledging that it can appear seemingly overnight but will go away at various speeds depending upon the situation.

Poor farrier care can create it, according to him.

My farrier's opinion is that the left front suffered the greater degree of laminitis (which conflicts with my Vet's assessment based upon the X-rays).

The white line damage seems to be worse on the left front and my farrier had me run my finger over the ridge in the outer portion of that hoof that happened when Perry had the active laminitis.

Perry seems to have had very good hoof growth since the Jan. 4 presentation of the laminitis event.

Farrier says that the "blob" intrusion into the white line is NOT "seedy toe" but is caused by the stretching of the white line and stress to that portion of the foot. He said that the make up of "the blob" is indeed that of what outer hoof wall would be.

He said that the heels presently are very close to being where they should be and will normally remain. The hoof capsule has regained the more normal shape and the heels have come back up under him.

As to whether there was laminitis in the hind because those feet also had false sole, my farrier says that the laminitis was in the front feet, and the false sole in the rear was in reaction to the excessive weighting there due to the pain from the laminitis in the front.

He said that while not unseen, laminitis in the rear is seldom found.

My farrier took the toe plain back significantly on the left front and then beveled at a fairly sharp angle to relieve the stress and abnormality in the white line.

He suggested that I keep Perry on his present program for a few more days but that soon I should likely be able to turn him out with the other horses.

If there is a re-occurence of the laminitis it may mean that there was a metabollic issue.

He suggested a CD test may be in order.

There was evidence of past bleeding due to the laminitis into the front feet as Perry was trimmed today.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 9:31 pm:

How is perry moving now Vicki? Does your farrier think it is possible to ever get rid of the "blob"

Thanks for the update I was wondering how he was doing.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 8:07 pm:

Diane, Perry is moving more normally with regard to stride length and also with making turns, but I think that he is still somewhat hampered by the false sole that is remaining, especially on the right front, because his walking seems to be rather cautiously and deliberately carried out with his way of going.

I'm not seeing him try to tear around and "throw caution to the wind" as of yet.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the remaining false sole to go away.

My impression about "the blob" is that such an abnormality extends all the way up to where the ridge is that the laminitis left on the outer hoof wall.

At the point that the foot is grown all the way to the ground from that laminitis ridge, it may be gone and not reappear thanks to being properly addressed by my farrier, but I guess I'll have to wait and see to know for sure.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 3:46 pm:

Perry has been cleared to be turned back out with the other horses.

Oh glorious day! My Vet came out today to give overdue rabies shots that were delayed five months after Perry presented with laminitis.

He examined Perry's feet and was overall very happy with how they are looking.

He very much liked the way that my farrier had addressed the treatment of the toe.

The feet are good and hard and the correct position of the heels is back.

He did note that it looked like Perry was due for a trim as there was a lot of growth. My farrier will be here next in two weeks.

He used the hoof testers and found zero tenderness in that right front that was so sore seemingly forever. In the left front he did point out to me that Perry has evidence of a bit of bruising on that sole with a slight tenderness in one spot.

So I guess I will have to keep an eye on that and decide whether anything needs to be done.

He was in kind of a hurry and didn't give any instructions in that regard.

I finally wormed (Zimecterin Gold) 5 days ago and I could tell that a couple of the boys didn't feel quite up to par but nothing serious.

The rest of my semi-annual vaccines will be given split into two more farm trips as I don't like to give West Nile and the 4-way at the same due to Perry having once had a reaction to that combination.

Now begins the balancing act of trying to see that Perry doesn't gain a lot of weight.

Having been at about 950 at the time of the laminitis he is now about 875 with ribs showing but still some fat pad above the tail.

Vet wasn't concerned that Perry's new summer coat is somewhat longer and rougher than usual on some parts of his body as he felt that could relate to some of the dietary restrictions and changes that he went through.

Here's hoping there is indeed no CD or EMS!
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 4:14 pm:

Great news, Vicki. What a long haul it has been for you and Perry! But so glad for you both that he can have his freedom back and you can take a deep sigh of relief.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 4:26 pm:

YEA, glad Perry finally gets to be "normal" again... good Luck with it all!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 4:28 pm:

Thanks so much Fran!

My Vet told me today "You did good."

It was hard for me to be patient, but great to have a higher level of guidance on making this call as it was a drawn-out case to deal with.

Perry's patience was beginning to run out due to boredom and he had taken to dumping the filled wheelbarrow out of play anytime that he could reach it. Amusing for him, not so much for me!

It will be so great to have less work to do everyday if all goes well.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 4:30 pm:

Thanks, Diane. It has been five months of this.

June 1 is a great day and a new beginning.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 1, 2010 - 9:26 pm:

Vicki - great to hear the good news and best of luck! Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2010 - 4:20 pm:

Thanks, Lilo.

Perry and I are both very pleased with his present status.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Jun 17, 2010 - 11:10 am:

My farrier came this week.

The appearance of bruising on the LF sole that was visible a couple of weeks ago has disappeared.

Perry's moving great and his white line has tightened up a great deal.

"The blobs" have been evolving and are not visible right now though my farrier expects it may still be seen in the future until the entire new foot is grown out.

An interesting observation is that my other horses who did not get laminitis also have significant indicators on their hooves showing that they too went through some kind of a weird physical incident at the same time that Perry did. They were all eating lots of fallen acorns, unseasonable winter grass, and perhaps too many treats. I was also struggling through using some hay that was really poor that had kind of a strange odor for lack of being able to find any that was better.

Perhaps I'll never know for sure what caused the laminitis for Perry but he spent much more time under the oak trees than the other horses did.

I am keeping a close eye on his weight. He looks great right now.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 17, 2010 - 9:55 pm:

Was a weird winter wasn't it Glad Perry continues to improve, keep him away from the acorns this year. I know some of our cattle seem to be affected by eating too much of them, the cows that seemed obsessed with them get worse. At this point we lock the cattle out of the pastures with acorns, it wasn't worth having sick cows.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2010 - 12:10 pm:

Thanks Diane.

Somehow I need to find a way to control the acorn situation this year.
New Member:
01griff

Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2010 - 12:29 pm:

Have not read all the discussion so this may have already been suggested but I have found Clorox to be very good at preventing and curing Thrush. My trainer sprays Clorox on my horses hooves and frogs every time she gives them a bath.

You might want to try a muzzle to keep your horse from eating acorns.

griff
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2010 - 3:01 pm:

Thanks, J.R.

I have bought grazing muzzles for Perry and another of my horses but the grass hasn't been significant enough so far this season to begin to try them out.

Using one during acorn season may indeed be an option.

My horses have always eaten acorns every year but the crop was exceptionally large this past season.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Jul 10, 2010 - 2:57 pm:

Perry has been doing pretty well and has complete liberty to come and go from pasture to barn.

Thanks to some rains over the course of several days my grass finally came in to the point that I am no longer feeding any hay nor grass forage.

Since I was told by my farrier that it was no longer necessary to check or clean Perry's feet daily I have cut back on that activity.

Last week, however, every time I asked for Perry's right front he raised the left front instead. He did this on four consecutive occasions.

Of course one must think "What is he trying to tell me?"

That left front was really coming apart in the area of the white line after we received those rains!

This is the foot that has had the extreme "blob" taking over a portion of the white line.

Although the blob had largely gone away, it was back as big or bigger than ever.

I did the best that I could to bevel and take back both of his front toes.

I also cleaned the feet carefully and put Thrush Buster on the frogs and extending up onto the horn area of the heel bulbs.

Now Perry is giving me the right front when I ask for it instead of picking the left front up off the ground instead.

My Vet is coming in 5 days to give West Nile shots so I will have him check on this situation.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2010 - 5:25 pm:

Just wanted to update about Perry's feet.

He has had a really great summer.

For quite some time his hooves have been entirely grown out new.

The "blobs" are gone and white lines look good.

The shape appears entirely normal -- no look of having had laminitis or rotation. Concavity has returned and he has been moving great.

My farrier says that he is de-rotated.

My Vet says "How does he think that he can know that without X-rays?"

My farrier says he doesn't need X-rays to be able to tell.

All I know is they look great and my Veterinarian agrees about this too!

I've managed to keep the extra weight off of Perry quite well but he has gained some through eating acorns.

For weeks I picked up the offending nuts numerous times daily until my back and knees gave out. Attempts to hire a neighbor boy to rake and pick acorns proved futile. He quit on me after a couple of mornings of work. With the large number of Oak trees that I have it is more than a daunting task.

I had to confine Perry for about a week in a small area of electric fencing because he gave himself a belly ache eating them and the nuts could be seen in his manure. He was likely picking up extra sand while eating them as well.

The horses have mostly been eating the milder Live Oak acorns. This is a member of the White Oak family and not high in tannins.

Before his laminitis last January Perry had been constantly hanging around under the Laurel Oak trees eating acorns there.

If I observe the horses in that area eating acorns this year I will have to somehow keep them out of there, but thankfully the yield seems fairly small in comparison to last year.

The Laurel Oak acorns have a higher level of tannins than my Live or Water Oaks, but of course they all have plenty of extra protein.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 24, 2010 - 5:57 pm:

Yea! Glad Perry had a a good outcome too...and keep him away from those acorns. Amazing what some plants/trees can do to horses... We have many oaks too, but they are not in the horse pasture thankfully, I'm sure my pigs would love those acorns.. We did have some problems with the cows eating them a few years back, some of them seemed Possessed by the acorns and wouldn't eat anything else...we finally put them in a different pasture. At least the cows don't eat those stupid locust pods
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 27, 2010 - 5:20 pm:

I would say improvement (decrease) in the width of the white line at the toe and thickening of the sole at the toe suggest improved coffin bone position but may miss the last few degrees of improvement to normal.
DrO
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