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Discussion on Stifle Lameness question
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Member:
rackn1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 7:37 pm:
I have a just turning 6 year old walking horse.
For the past 2 years I have been dealing with stifle locking in his left hind leg. I have had him examined by three vets all who recommend conditioning on hills b/c the locking does not seem severe. No one has ever recommended Xrays and they all seem to think it is due to his straight build.
This spring I have started riding after a very bad winter and have thus far taken it pretty slow. The leg seems to be stronger than previous springs which I attribute to walking up and down these VA hills all winter in 1 foot of snow and getting more of a workout than usual (usually no snow in VA but this year we had snow all winter!)
This horse hit the ground racking at birth and last fall he was moving beautifully. This spring he is wanting to trot. I attributed it to weakness in the stifle joint I have had problems with and a need for conditioning and getting used to the bitless bridle we are using now.
Today I went on our first longish ride. We went for several miles more than usual BUT it was all flat and very easy. He got tired faster than normal and I could hear his back feet hitting his front. He would trot then fall into a rack almost as if he was falling out of balance then back into a trot. And he tried to canter which is extremely unusual. Again, I figured this was a need for conditioning and getting used to the bitless bridle we are riding in now.
Upon getting back to the trailer I noticed he was not putting weight on his RIGHT hind leg. And then backing off the trailer he did not want to put weight on it. I walked him and examined and to my layman's eye it appears that he is having the same stiffness in the stifle in this right leg as he does in his left. Both rear hooves have nicks in them from where he was not picking up his feet and hitting the front hooves which leads me to think he is in fact weak in both legs. He seems tired and dejected and I feel awful! I had no idea that a few miles more on a very easy trail would turn out like this. I was paying attention to that left hind leg and never even was concerned about the other.
I have never seen this leg lock up like the left one but won't be surprised if that is happening tomorrow. I also have never noticed any weakness in this leg.
I am getting ready for spring shots / coggins and will of course have him examined by a vet but I was wondering if it is normal for a horse to have 'weak back end' in general. Is it common for both legs to have the same stifle issue?
I guess perhaps I just pushed him harder than I should have too soon?
If anyone has had any similiar experiences, I would love to know.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 9:22 pm:
Hi Joanie, I can't help but think your stories about the stifle and your experience with the bridle and traffic issues sound very similar to problems I have had with my horse Hank since shortly after he was broke out.
Hank is not a gaited horse but the rest sounds very similar and the stories are sprinkled around this site. He lost his canter, became dangerous in traffic (when he wasn't before) developed a "hitch in his get along which I thought was stifle issues, became racy and prancy, and we were getting dangerously out of control.
MOST of these problems were my issues, I was rushing him into things he wasn't ready for expecting a good boy, but he got worse. The worse he got the more nervous I got, the more I grabbed the reins, and it had a terrible snowball effect all around. I had no confidence when riding him and was always worried what he was going to do next!...not a good thing. He became inverted, horses need to develop the right muscles for collection and it doesn't come overnight.
We had to go back to ground zero in training, starting on the ground. respect issues resolved, next liberty training, to get his attention and learn to trust me, next SLOW ridden work in the arena... concentrating on when I ask for walk or stop I want it with no conditions... this took most of the summer, but was SOOOO worth it. Traffic issues disappeared when we got back under control and we learned mutual trust and respect.
His stifle issue and loss of canter was due in part from lack of proper conditioning ( I learned that was important on this site) and it is. The other part was poor hoof form. Your horse may have a stifle issue I am just telling you My experience and may be worth looking into.
I took Hank on his first ride since fall last week, and as much as I wanted to continue (and so did he) I didn't want to overdo and make him muscle sore so we kept it short but sweet. He wanders around deep snow on the hillsides all winter too, but that is different than a vigorous ride, they can move at their own pace in pasture.
I think if you slow down, go back to basics and teach him cues for slow down and stop with your body language.. in a controlled environment it will help. Of course have your vet check him just in case it is physical
I see my problems so much in your posts I just wanted to share what has helped me.
Good Luck.
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Member:
rackn1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 2:43 am:
Hi Diane.
I agree with every single statement you have made.
I do think that there is some issue with his stifles or hoof form or SOMETHING because I have had that one stifle lock up on me several times. And I have had him out several times this month. In other words I didn't just pull him out of the pasture today for the first time.
He has been 'off' from the first time I took him out for a one mile loop.
I have been concerned about hoof form for some time now. I don't know enough about it to know if my farrier is doing a good job. And although I am a fan of all you bare foot riders out there, this is not a horse that can go barefoot. I live and ride in the mountains with lots of rocky footing.
How did you go about finding out more about that and if your farrier was doing a correct shoeing?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 7:25 am:
Hi Joanie, I didn't think you just pulled him out of the pasture and took off on a long ride I will admit to doing that years ago myself tho!
First I did have the vet check Hanks stifle, he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I had an experienced horseman check it and he thought he was sore in his meniscus.
Then a couple years ago hank was having a mild gas colic, so I gave him some banamine. That afternoon I took him for a ride and his sticky stifle was gone and was back the next time I rode him... I called my vet and asked if banamine would help a sticky stifle... he said NO... HMMMM. Turned out it was his hooves hurting him, I discovered that by inadvertently giving him the banamine. I do believe he does have some minor stifle issues on the right side still. Since getting his hooves in order, and SLOW conditioning it has all but disappeared. Getting the horses breakover correct will help if he does have stifle issues.
The only way I could find out if Hanks hooves were a mess was studying online (vet was no help) and my 11 parts of hoof critique on here Dr.O. has very good articles in here also.
I had no idea about hoof form either, but even at that I knew when looking at his hooves something was wrong, and it sounds like you suspect that too. I did put shoes on Hanks back hooves when he was having his "stifle issues" and it didn't help. he was actually better barefoot behind as far as that was concerned. I was just thinking about if I felt that issue on our last 2 rides and I didn't .
I hope you can figure it all out. I would definitely go back to basics with this guy, sounds like he is getting out of control. I too have MANY MANY years with horses, Hank protested about my ignorance, where most of the others didn't.... it has been a very educational journey, that taught me more about horses hooves and training that I ever wanted to know! I can now ride him out without any stunts or fear of being killed by traffic. I was getting to the point of buying a different horse and just giving up 2 years ago. Glad I didn't because he really is an awesome horse....with little tolerance for poor horsemanship... he was actually too well trained for me... I had to catch up!
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Member:
rackn1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 8:25 am:
Hi Diane, I see what you are getting at now. I am going to put up a bit more info and maybe Dr. Oglesby will have some insight too.
First of all, thanks for all of your advice. I have a very smart horse who is trying to teach me proper horsemanship I am pretty sure! He and I actually get along pretty well most of the time but he has trust issues with me and I have a lot of work to do and am ready and willing to do it!
That is how i found this website.
That being said I am pretty sure I have some sort of medical issue with this horse.
The horse has been diagnosed with stifle issues but the depth of how or why has never been discovered.
The first vet came the first time the stifle locked up in the fall 1 1/2 years ago and said he could see it in the way the horse moved. He recommended annual injections of something if the problem persisted but that it might disappear with age. So I just rode him and the problem got better until the spring.
That winter/spring I wasn't riding as heavily as the fall and I watched him walking in the pasture and it kept locking up on him while out there. He would work it out but the problem seemed worse and I wanted a second opinion.
The second vet told me it was my farrier's fault and my horse needed corrective shoeing so I called my farrier who I really like and we tried to work through it but he told me the vet was full of it.
I was very upset at that point and had a third vet, from the most expensive reputable clinic around come out. She never mentioned corrective shoeing but said that it was most likely the way the horse was built and that I could spend a lot of money doing tests to pinpoint the exact cause of the problem or since he seemed to be relatively sound the day she came (I had been riding for several weeks as it was later in the spring) it looked like he got better with proper conditioning. I had already spent $1000 between the lameness exams and my shots and coggins and really could not afford to do more at the time. All three of these vets were equine vets.
This past fall the horse appeared to be moving fine. He was gaiting smoothly and moving well. I was moving on to training concerns that I have detailed in this website. Then we had a horrible winter and I didn't get to ride for 3 months.
So this month with a fresh set of shoes I have started lightly riding him. I have been working on ground work and using the bitless and he has been doing very well with all of it..we even rode on the road one day and he didn't spook. I have been paying certain attention to the leg that usually locks and it is much stronger than the past spring.
But the new problem comes when I want to pick up the pace. This has been from our first ride out this spring.
It is less of a lack of control than that he is severely 'off' and off balance. This is new this spring. I never had problems with gaiting before and I think he is uncomfortable.
Then yesterday he came up tender in the OTHER hind leg. The issue is not in his hoof I am certain. He does not want to bend the leg. When I tried to pick it up he kept jerking it away from me because he did not want to bend his leg to lift the hoof for me. And you can see the stiffness in the leg.
This is in addition to the nicks on this back hooves from hitting the front from not picking up his hind legs. I could feel that during the ride.
I am pretty sure an unconditioned sound horse would not have come home lame from yesterday's ride. It was pretty light and easy. I am no vet and no trainer and my ignorance abounds. But that the easy ride I took yesterday should not have affected him the way it did unless there is a problem. That combined with the fact that he has been off since I started riding him has me pretty certain that I either have a hoof balance or leg issue.
Yesterday he couldn't keep up like he normally does and I KNOW he was in pain.
I have some issues I need to work through with this horse but I need to make sure he is sound before I can do that. I am pretty sure a lot of his resistence yesterday was due to pain.
So here I am back at the starting board. I love my horse and do not want to hurt him. I like my farrier but if he isn't doing a good job then I need to try someone new. But everyone has a different opinion on the proper way to shoe a horse, including the vets. I am torn as to what vet to call.
I also am wondering if I should go ahead and get a second farrier's opinion.
Finally I am going to try and do some reading on hoof form so maybe I can learn what I need to be looking for.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 8:37 am:
Joanie no one knows the horse better than the owner I hope you are able to find his issues. I wasn't trying to "get at anything" just giving you my experiences because it sounded similar, hoping you may find some ideas.
Hope Dr.O. can help you out.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 8:54 am:
Joanie can you take pictures of his confirmation and hooves and post them.. that may help.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 10:18 am:
Joanie,
Diane beat me to it. I would also like to see pictures of his conformation, so I can see what"straight build" this horse has.
I think Diane has it right. I think your horse has a conditioning problem, just from the way you describe him getting better as the season went on last year. Also, contributing to the stifle problem, may be a hoof imbalance because if a hoof isn't right it throws everything else off in the horse, skeletally, physically and mentally too.
Corrective shoeing is sort of a misnomer because you can not correctively shoe conformation problems or lameness problems( unless it is to support a broken bone, you first need to figure out what is causing the lameness problem. In racehorses(gaited, trotters and pacers) a lot of problems are caused by farriers trying to balance and shoe a horse to get away from the horse interfering, which in most cases means longer toes, low heels and improper breakover but IMHO and over the long haul, I do not think this is good for joints, ligaments, and tendons and I think most gaited horses would gait better naturally if only their owners, trainers, farriers and vets would get on the same page.
As far as shoes, while I do believe some horses need protection, the protection needs to be temporary when the horse needs it to condition his feet on very rough and or abrasive terrain.
Farriers in my mind and most hoof professionals seem to think in terms of weeks and months instead of days in between trims or maintenance trims. It is the frequent correct tweaking of a horses feet that will eventually remodel the hoof so that under most normal circumstances you will not need shoes, but this does not happen overnight, it takes time and patience and most people do not have what it takes to do this the right way. These are the people who wonder why their horses are alway off somewhere but continue to ride anyway. These are usually really good people, who when the lightbulbs go off in their heads, find themselves feeling really guilty that they didn't see things clearly in the beginning. I am just as guilty of this as I think everyone on HA has had this feeling at one time or another. But we learn better from our mistakes and we grow from them ( and our horses forgive us for our transgressions).
I have learned a lot from this website, the people on it and from Dr. O and while we may have disagreements occasionally about what works and what doesn't, it is all within the realm of learning and advice and all of us need to take it as such.
In the end we will make decisions, good and bad but if we do our research and ask questions, the bad decisions will become less and less and you will see the results of the good decisions in how your horse reacts to them.
You will definitely get a lot of advice from a lot of people, but its up to you to be the advocate for your horse and ultimately decide what is right for him and you.
I will get off my soapbox now.
Rachelle
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 11:06 am:
Joanie,
I had what I thought was a stifle problem years ago with my horse. He was off in the hind, the vet watched him go and said it definitely looked like his stifle, she flexed him and nothing came up. She x-rayed his stifles and there were changes so she opted to inject his stifles and gave me a strict exercise regimen. I was to trot in upgrading increments on hard ground for months and then introduce hills which is great for strengthening the hind end. She also gave me a drug that was supposed to help and for the life of me can't think of what it was called. We did the corrective shoes, a series of adequan, I did everything right. Nevertheless, he improved but something never felt right. We blocked every joint with no outcome, tried massage therapy, chiropractic work, injected hocks and sacrum. I opted for a bone scan. It was his front right elbow all along and him using his hind end to compensate just caused him to breakdown. After a year of strengthening exercises I in-turn only hurt him as the specific exercise regimen only broke down his already arthritic joints.
So...I guess my point is, don't rule out other things. Looking back it would have saved me ALOT of money to do a correct and complete exam first. The bone scan was much cheaper than the blocks, injections, x-rays, and other therapies. Blocking is great, but we didn't do the elbow because they said if it were that he would really lame.}
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 11:16 am:
Hello Joanie,
If there is new lameness in the right rear I would not assume you have a stifle locking until you see it. If the stifle on the left is still locking there are fairly easy surgical treatments that are effective, see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Upper Rear Limb » Stifle Lameness » Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella. Because of the reciprocal apparatus which forces the stifle, hock, and fetlock to move together stiffness in any of these joints makes the other joints look stiff.
Diagnosis will require a careful examination as outlined in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse. A few extra miles on a warmer than average day might well tire a horse out and as you have noted coming along a little slower seems to be indicated but not until we have a diagnosis of what is wrong.
DrO
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Member:
rackn1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 4:00 pm:
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I am going to go take some photos of all 4 feet and the rear end.
After doing some reading last night I think this horse has low heels in the front as well.
As for barefoot, I am not against it and I actually keep a mare I ride lightly barefoot - no problems!
I am just not sure it is for this horse. But then again, I don't know enough about it to say for sure.
I do know that I ride on some rough terrain and his feet do have a tendency to crack and crumble.
In the summer when it gets dry I keep him on supplement.
That isn't to say I won't give it a try down the road, but for right now I would like to start by making sure he is correctly shod, having a thorough veterinary exam and then working on correct conditioning.
Back soon with photos!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 20, 2010 - 4:54 pm:
Joanie, in regard to the hoof supplement: If you feed it to him only in the summer, only about the top half inch (at the coronet band) will be affected. The part of the hoof that meets the ground cannot improve. So to have good hoof quality at the ground level, you need to feed a hoof supplement for a full year. That's if the supplement does what we assume it does. I hope I'm making sense--it takes nine months to a year for a hoof to grow from the coronet to the ground. Only the new growth would benefit from any supplement.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 21, 2010 - 12:40 pm:
posted on wrong discussion sorry!
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