|
|
Discussion on Pasture paradise
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 8:45 am:
Dr. O - what is your opinion of the "Pasture Paradise" idea?
I have a 19 yo gelding diagnosed with IR last spring. I read HA advice on dealing with this diagnosis. and cut out all grain products and increased his exercise. This all went well until this spring, when he appeared to have sore feet as in laminitis, so I immediately treated him as suggested by HA - bute, no shoes, icing, etc. He seems to be getting better after 3 days, so I am going to cut back all bute and turn him out with a muzzle if I am sure he is comfortable without the bute.
However, my trimmer indicates that he will either need to be muzzled or live on a dry lot OR to do this "pasture paradise" for the rest of his life. What's your take on that?
|
Member:
cometrdr
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 6:29 pm:
what is pasture paradise?
We live in a dry climate and I have never heard of that? just curious.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 7:06 pm:
Nancy, I am not Dr.O. , but have been trying to figure out my 2 IR/EMS boys for quite a few years. What I have learned is they are all different in their tolerance of different things!!!
I found after last years experiment that clover is a big set off for laminitis for both the boys. I also found stressed grass or LUSH grass as it is now, is also something to be very careful with.
I also found that a good daily workout helps keep the insulin "flowing" and they can tolerate more grass. BCS of 5 is very helpful and very hard with those that breathe grass fumes and gain 50#'s.
Personally I think the paddock Paradise is probably a good idea, I have been considering doing it myself, but where I would lay it out has quite the lush grass too, and I really don't want to kill the grass (just clover).
So for now, while the grass is spring lush, anyone over a BCS of 6 is dry lotted. Right now only fat butt Hank is a BCS of 6 and he is getting his butt worked every night!!! Right now they are getting 3 hrs. of grass, while it is not tall it is green and lush... full of sugars, fructans or whatever it is . It never fails i usually end up with a bout of laminitis anywhere between now and July, not this year they can stand in the drylot until the cows come home before I will allow that, as much as I LOVE seeing them in the pastures grazing I have finally learned my lesson!
You have to figure out what your horse can tolerate carefully, they all seem to have different tolerance levels. You did a good job catching it early. You know what set this bout off, now you have to work from there. IME
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 9:24 pm:
I honestly can't think of any reason why the Paddock Paradise concept would be a bad idea. I feel my horses are happier, in better shape, and hoofs are looking good. Horses are meant to move, and IMHO, keeping horses from moving is the worst thing we can do to them. Which is what most of us do with stalls, and paddocks, and divided pastures trying to get the most out of our grazing time. (not implying you have that situation!) And studies show that they don't move as much grazing in a huge pasture as they do if they are on the "track" like PP.
Even with using 2 slow feeders, they still move because the feeders are spaced far enough apart.
And as hard as it is to get over the idea of "ruined pasture" keeping the "track" grass free isn't that painful for me now that I am used to it.
Here's a pretty good link:
https://paddockparadise.wetpaint.com/
Best of luck; start small if you decide to try the concept, use some temp fencing, step in posts and see how he responds after a few weeks maybe?
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 9:44 pm:
Angie, my basic problem is the set up. In concept it sounds great, but I can't visualize a set up that would work for us. My pasture is hilly, but has some very low spots that remain wet almost all year. So those areas would be off limits for a track. To run a "track" along the perimeter of the pasture would, I am afraid, cause considerable erosion, and since I live in a semi-residential area, that is a concern for us. My horse move constantly in the pasture, so I am puzzled as to what a track would really do, other than make me feed hay to everyone, and not just to him. I tried to put them all together in a smaller area today and it was very uncomfortable for me to watch - they really had some issues dealing with each other in a small space - and I worry about that as far as a track in concerned. I also have a blind horse that knows his way around, but would he "get" a track?
I am not sure how to start small, I think that is my problem, I could make a track about 400' long, but that seems too short - and what do you do about the "dead ends"? Don't they inhibit movement? I agree 100% with what you said about the movement, which is why he is in a muzzle and not on a dry lot. He would not move if he was on a dry lot.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 9:51 pm:
Diane, this may help you decide when your grass is safe and when it is not:
"Sugars accumulate in grasses later in the day, so if you turn these horses out on pasture, do it in the mornings. Do not turn them out after an overnight freeze or after a prolonged DrOught (both conditions cause accumulation of sugars in grasses). In these conditions, you start keeping them off grass more and more. Also avoid overgrazed pastures, because when they're overgrazed, grasses accumulate a lot of sugar. Plus, sugars are higher at the base of the stems, which is what horses eat when the tops are gone."
Grasses are safest between 3am and 10am if the temperatures are above 40o.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 14, 2010 - 10:31 pm:
Thanks Nancy I have already decided when the grass is safe for these guys, pretty much never UNLESS they are in good physical condition and getting exercise regularly. IR horses can't be pasture potatoes FME regardless of the time of day. Getting rid of the clover was one of the best things I ever did for them tho, they can graze a little more without it's presence.
I have researched this stuff more than hooves!!! Dr.O's article hits the nail on the head on how to control this and keep laminitis away. I did do an experiment last year and removed the clover, let the grass grow and not be stressed and my horses lived pretty normally last year with some bumps in the road. The MOST important part is keeping the weight down and exercising them as much as possible. I like my horses to live as "normal" as possible and it is why I go to great lengths to make it happen. After having quite a few bouts of laminitis or full blown founder if it is a small drylot that it takes until it is safe for them to graze then so be it, beats treating founder and watching the horse go through the pain of it.
I think it is possible for these types to live "normally" I did it last year, it just takes nerves of steel, and finding that particular horses trigger(s). Hank had something wrong with his fetlock last year and I couldn't exercise him, this year his butt is getting worked as long as he stays sound(which is a day to day thing!) Once the grass is out of the "lush" stage I suspect he will be able to graze at least half the day (10 hrs.) like he did last year.... not bad for an IR/EMS horse
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 8:42 am:
Nancy,
Is it possible to do a rough sketch of your layout? Proportions wouldn't have to be perfect, just a general idea. You might see something then just looking at a drawing. Maybe a set up in the middle of a pasture? There are no hard rules, just whatever you can envision, variety is good.
I think your situation sounds heavenly, lol! HILLS?? WET areas?? I have 2 flat squares/rectangles, and one "L" shaped area to work with, all pretty much flat. B-O-R-I-N-G. But easy to lay out a track. I'd love to do more, but $$$$ is a factor, and hubby will not let me put fencing in our woods.
As for the blind horse, that would be a concern of course.
If I were you, I wouldn't sweat it, the muzzle will work, yes? We can all only do what we can with what we have, and lucky horses have you who has their best interests in mind.
This is my discussion with pictures, don't know if you saw it or not yet.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/342099.html
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 9:21 am:
Diane, thanks for the advice, it is extremely helpful. I was exercising him regularly, but with the bad weather we had, I guess just not enough exercise - OR - there was a particular "grass event" that triggered it this time. How did you remove the clover? I agree 100% that the exercise is a huge factor. How long after your laminitis events were you able to start working your horses?
Angie, unfortunately we had a "Janet Jackson warDrObe malfunction" last night - He lost his muzzle between 10pm and 4:30am. So I guess I will have to keep him in the small paddock - it is not really yet a "dry lot", but I mowed it down to the nubs - how long do you think it will take to get it down to no grass - or doesn't that really matter?
I will look at your discussion - thanks to both of you. Some of these websites are so zealous that the IR horses can have NO grass - but I think there has to be a happy medium.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 9:50 am:
Angie, I read your discussion - have you had any trouble with mud at all? This is our biggest concern is to put up a track and then have it be completely unusable November-April.
I Do so much like the idea of them moving more - that's what they need to do, I know.
Also, is your track one big flow, or does it have "ends"?
I like your idea to have them graze part of the day and then be on the track the other part - so the horses aren't permanently relegated to having no pasture.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 10:24 am:
Nancy,
I closed the track off during the worst of the mud time late winter/early spring. I spent some time dragging an old drag section over just because there was soo much manure and it was slippery. But there is mud in their winter dirt area too, I mean spring thaw makes a mess no matter what, right?
Some people keep the track scrapped, I don't have any equipment except a small ATV, and the old drag section so I am limited what I can do.
They are on the main track around the biggest pasture all the time then, the others are opened as needed for grazing, or the main pastures are opened. I want the main track to stay virtually grass free for movement and weight control. I have 2 slow feeders now, one in my "winter dirt area" another on the track itself. I plan on changing a corner section of the track to put the 2nd slow feeder there thus making it farther away from the 1st one. Those are what some call the lounging areas I think? Small areas where the track is expanded a bit.
It took them a few weeks I think to turn the track into dirt. This spring I was surprised to see green growth! But that's o.k. with me, I think if they graze as nature intended, getting a bit every day as new growth emerges, not a problem.
I don't have horses with any health issues with grass and I hope to keep it that way.
No, I don't have dead ends, one continous loop for most of the set ups I have with the exception of the one part of the "L" shaped area. But that's a small area.
Of course, I think I will be expanding that area...hmm...it's a work in progress! Fun actually to see it evolve.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 11:15 am:
I guess I just have to readjust - my pasture is rarely muddy, the grass holds everything together thru the winter.
As you said - I tried to "think small" - I have a very small paddock hooked up to a larger one via a gate. First of all, the gate is 10' but makes me nervous that they'll run into it. Thoughts on that?
Secondly, there is no shelter there - and we have HUGE horseflies in about a month or 6 weeks, so they want to spend the days in the run in and then go out about 10am when it is fully dark (or even later)
Frankly, I feel overwhelmed - I spent all day yesterday "preparing" a "dry lot", but all they are doing is standing by the fence and trying to eat the weeds on the fenceline. So now I have to go and mow the area behind the fence, after I spent hours yesterday weeding by hand.
If I put up this track, I have to do it all by myself, and I am not sure I have the ability to do that. My husband is critical of the idea of PP and said if I wanted to do it, to "go ahead", but he was not going to help at all.
I've dealt with a laminitic horse before, and it always seems as if all I did was worry about if I was doing the wrong thing or the right thing. I think I will lose my mind if I have to go thru it again, the constant worry. I have almost considered either boarding him permanently, where he would get no turnout, or just giving up and putting him down. I can't live on pins and needles for the next 10 years. I hate myself for thinking this way, but I am just feeling overwhelmed!
The idea that he can NEVER have any grass is just something I can't get a handle on.
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 12:27 pm:
Hello nancy,
The idea that grass can be a problem for horses can be hard to get your head around but many of our easy keeping breeds were just not designed to live on our rich cool season pasture grasses. Since we have those type horses I have quit regularly trying to make a lush growth of TB's.
I have quit regularly fertilizing and liming regularly and allow the less nutritious summer grasses grow and seed out. When one of my horses is getting above a "6" I either move them to a paddock or muzzle them.
DrO
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 1:06 pm:
Dr. O - I have never fertilized or limed in the 17 years I have had horses on this pasture. I mow regularly and let the summer grasses grow and seed out. The horses tend to stay under shelter in the heat of the summer, thus they only graze from 10pm-6am
I exercise my horses as often as possible - sometimes 5-6 days per week, following HA advice.
So it is possible, after this laminitis episode resolves, that he MAY (no guarantees) be able to graze on summer grasses as long as I keep his BCS at "5"?
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 1:15 pm:
Hey Nancy, I know the feeling over whelmed with horses; phew, I could type a few pages here on that alone.
Let my try putting this out here for you:
First of all, I put my inner perimeter fencing up myself. I think I had to pound in 8 or less T-posts for the corners, the rest are step in posts. There are many fencing options for the "wire" like rope, regular hot wire, and what I got was the wire in silver..don't know what it's called it might be in my other discussion? It will break if ran into, of course ANYTHING can injure a horse but I've had no problems with it. Deer wreck my outer fencing, that's the Horse Guard stuff!
Based on what my hoof guru told me over the last few years, movement is a must for laminitic horses. Not during an acute attack of course, when pads and deeply padded stalls may be needed, but once the horse can move safely, as in no coffin bone poking through the sole ;-), you want movement for circulation. I would not give bute or any thing past a few days...my opinion, DrO may say something else, but you don't want to mask the pain too much but rather get the horse moving as much as he can handle.
I honestly believe that many horses out there, IR, prone to laminitis, easy keeper, etc., are made that way by LACK OF MOVEMENT and too much FEED. You CANNOT over do encouraging the movement, IMHO. Heck, I'll take the Honda and encourage mine to run, or run myself with them to get them going (hopefully no one is watching!)
I don't know about IR, but I think most horses prone to laminitis can get to the point that they will be free of it if they move enough and eat sparsely. And eating a sparse less than lush pasture as DrO says above is what they do in the wild as far as everything I've ever read says.
I think the idea of a horse "never having grass" is bull. (Sorry DrO) I think any horse can have grass IF the movement is there, the grazing is done at the right time, and the right types of grass.
Just my opinion of course based on what I've read, and what makes sense to me, no experience to back it.
Of course, PROPER hoof form is part of the picture too.
The reason Paddock Paradise and Slow Feeders came about is because folks who have horses like your have were constantly struggling to keep their horses healthy, and keep themselves sane.
I suggest keep looking around at some websites, and your environment, cold beer or glass of wine in hand, ;-), and I bet you come up with something that will work in your situation.
Don't feel bad about about considering putting the horse down either if it comes to that, I've got one that missed getting buried barely last fall. Always something with that one.
As for running into the gate, I always smile when I think of how careful we are with our horses environment; how the heck do they survive in nature without running into trees, rocks, or DrOwning??  Not making fun of the question! My pastures are rock & tree free too! Nothing in there for them to get hurt on but I may add something of interest just to keep them on their toes!
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 1:33 pm:
Nancy it's not that hard once you figure it out, it only took me 7 years! You live in Il. so do I, and right now IR horses should not graze much if at all. Without the clover mine can graze 3-4 hrs. a day. The rest of time it is drylot and stemmy hay. Come about July when the cool season grass are done and I have no clover they can stay out almost 24/7 as long as they don't get fat. IF you have alot of clover in your pasture I think getting rid of it has been a life saver.
This is how I did it and the results for MY horses
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/327094.html
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/334719.html
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 15, 2010 - 10:54 pm:
Diane, just out of curiousity - how long did it take one of your IR horses to recover from a laminitis episode, one that you caught early? When were you able to turn them out in your dry lot on a regular basis, and when could you start exercising them. My vet comes on Monday to x-ray him for any changes, and I wanted to have some questions for discussion.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2010 - 7:21 am:
I left mine in the dry lot when they had laminitis, when they had a mild bout they would get over it very quickly once the "trigger" was removed and their weight reduced. With no rotation or soreness I started light exercise when sound off of bute. Unfortunately these horses are very prone to laminitis when their "trigger" is present and each bout seems to make their hooves worse.
Dr.O's article gives good guidelines on when exercise can begin. Every horse is different so you have to listen to them. Some can have a mild bout and be VERY sore and some not.
Some vets are more conservative then others. My vet thinks getting these IR type moving ASAP is the best thing for them.
Good idea to have your vet out so you know what you are dealing with, if this horse has had a bout of laminitis before you may have "old rotation" present also. Has he had laminitis before? I ask because you said he was diagnosed IR last year and laminitis is usually the first hint of it we catch.
Don't be too discouraged Nancy once you figure them out a few changes in management is needed, your horse can live semi-normally with good management, keeping the weight off, and movement. Sometimes when I don't have time to "work" them I just run them around the pasture. I have become a Digital Pulse freak tho, checked morning and night, same with their cresty necks. Any Ka- booming DP's or hard necks and turnout is stopped until things go back to normal.
My vet has told me by giving quite a few horses that are IR in his practice thyroid meds along with cipro they have been able to graze normally. He wanted me to try that on Hank, but I opted for better management, tho some days it is tempting to try!
Hope things turn out well for your horse
|
Moderator:
DrO
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2010 - 7:44 am:
It certainly is possible nancy, most horses with sprin/fall grass problems do not have problems with summer and winter pastures if the horses overall condition is kept on the thin side of moderate. What your particular horse can tolerate however will have to be discovered by trial and error. We cover these points in detail at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Forage (Spring and Fall Pasture) Associated Founder.
DrO
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 16, 2010 - 9:11 am:
Dr. O, thanks for your reply. I have poured over your articles about laminitis and IR - frankly, they are the only thing keeping me sane thru all this! There is almost TOO much info out there on the internet, but I will admit to being skeptical of most things I read. But my two trusted sources of "real" information are HA and then Horse Journal. My horse seemed to be extremely sound during the winter, so I am hoping he can return to that situation next winter. I was cantering him for 10-15 minutes at a time when the weather permitted, plus lots of trot and walk work.
Diane, thanks for your info. I am like you, in that I think the horses need to be exercised as soon as possible - I just want to be sure that I am not over zealous and start too soon! My concern was that my trimmer said it would be "a long time" before I could ride him again, but that seemed to be a rather usual statement, since she hasn't seen him since this episode began. Right now he is either in a dry lot (well, nearly all grass is gone, but not all of it!) or he is out with a muzzle, but he is moving around on his own quite easily and is off bute completely. Maybe a tad sore on the gravel, but then he has very flat soles anyway. he has tried to trot on his own, and I can tell there is some soreness, but it's not too terrible.
I had him tested for IR solely on what I read in HA last spring - he was fitting the profile of IR, and I wanted to know for sure, hoping I could keep laminitis at bay. I think my error this spring was letting his weight get a little too high, and not being able to exercise him enough due to the weather being so lousy (as I am sure you know!). But with HA about keeping the BCS at 4-5 - to be OK on spring pastures - I just wasn't paying close enough attention to his weight (my bad!)
Fortunately, I had his feet x-rayed last fall when I had him in the office for some cryosurgery on his melanomas, so I have a good baseline. I really noticed the soreness when I picked up his feet - he would let me, but he put alot of weight into my hand. And I could see him picking up one foot and then the other, But he never had a founder stance, and never stopped walking around on his own. I had a horse who rotated badly, years ago, and he was in significantly more pain than this guy has been.
I admire you SO much for how you are handing your horse management. I try and try to find the DP - and I just CAN'T! Any hints? I want my vet to show me again - but I seem to lack that skill set (LOL)
I did have him on Thyro-L before, but after reading HA, I took him off it last year. It is possible that Thyroid supplementation can cause osteoporosis like it does in humans (who don't need it), so giving it to them is not free of side effects. Plus Cypro is hard on them, too, I believe. I think your management idea is the trick!
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 7:52 am:
Nancy just remember even in a good BCS they can still get laminitis, it is not a guarantee they won't. They just tolerate more. You still have to be careful with thing that triggers a bout, just not as careful. I left Hank stay on the spring grass as it was coming in and with in 4 days he was ready to go "over the edge" he WAS in good BCS. He can tolerate about 4 hrs. right now and the weight is piling on fast. I have been giving him a good work out almost everyday too!
As my aged mother always says, everything in moderation
|
Member:
kpaint
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 9:43 am:
diane, I've been going every other day with the Hoover Hafies or even every 3rd day on the green, green grass. They look forlorn in the dry lot, but they're healthy...Probably like I look standing in a bakery.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 12:29 pm:
Yes the dry lot look is quite pitiful. That is one of the only reasons I am glad I work outside the home, I don't have to look at it until I get home and then they can go out for a few hours.
Weekends are a little tougher, but I remain vigilant, all I have to do is look at one of Hanks foundered hoof pictures to keep me honest!
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 1:30 pm:
Vicki!!! I know the look!
Mine are up to 2 hours of grazing in the morning after hay. I feed them 4 flakes for the four, NOT in the slow feeder so they get it in their stomachs quick so I can get them on the grass before sugars start rising. Then they get some hay mid day in the slow feeder, and a bale at night. This mirco managing drives me nuts, but seeing them healthy makes it worth while.
|
Member:
stek
|
Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 6:30 pm:
Diane your mom is right Every year I am amazed at how much they can eat in a short time. Have been letting ours out on the 'good' grass 2 hours a day and that has cut their hay consumption in half!!
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2010 - 10:35 am:
I was at a clinic this past weekend, and it was amazing how many stories I heard about colic or laminitis from participants! They were from Il, IN, MO, and KY, and most people said that they had never had problems ever before, that this year was particularly bad due to the very cool and wet March being followed by a hot and sunny April. So I guess I am not alone in being "fooled" by the grass.
My vet is coming today for x-rays and I am hoping for the best. When I went out in the dry lot to bring my gelding in, he trotted away from me this morning. He is pretty sound walking on gravel.
Thanks for all your advice!
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2010 - 11:36 am:
Nancy,
Cool and wet isn't the problem here, but sunny & warm, followed by frosty nights, and already stressed grasses from dry conditions; ugh, these extremes can't be good for the sugars in the grasses. After reading so many stories on here over the years concerning grass induced laminitis, my little herd is back on hay for a few weeks. Better safe than sorry.
Let us know what the vet says, o.k.? Hope you get good results from x-rays.
Did you get any info on sugar in grasses or wasn't it that kind of clinic?
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 8:02 am:
Cool and wet in the spring is what brings on my IR horses laminitis. Cool season grasses "explode" in that weather.
It has really dried up here, while I'm sure that "stresses" the grass also, my horses are tolerating the grass better than when it was rainy and cooler. Right now they are on about 4hrs. of grazing, while I am not seeing any signs of looming laminitis yet, Hank is packing on the pounds quickly, the other 2 don't seem to be. Rain this weekend will bring back their high risk of laminitis and they will be cut way back or put on dry lot with no grazing until Hank goes back to a 5 BCS. It is a pain this time of year with these types. There must be something in the grass here because Bonesy isn't boney anymore and he has only been here a week
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 9:25 am:
Good news from the vet - Feivel did NOT rotate and had a very mild case. I am to turn him out with his muzzle and in the dry lot until I can get his BCS down to 5. The 2 other young horses have to do the same thing, so he will not be alone in his misery of not eating 24/7! The vet said that unless I had a testing lab in my basement, there is no REAL way to figure out which grasses are indeed the most harmful, so we all have to be careful in this very odd spring. Probably 1-2 hours of grazing on grass right now would be max for any horse with susceptibility to laminitis.
Angie, it was a riding clinic, but still lots of discussion about laminitis! But "get them off the grass" was the consensus. So even though you had a PP setup, they were still getting too much grass? So they are dry lotted now?
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 11:04 am:
Dr. O - is it better to wait and trim a hoof after the horse is walking and trotting normally? My horse has flat soles, and your articles are clear that you don't want to have the sole have even more contact with the ground during recovery, yet there is the need to bring the toe back to avoid stretching the laminae due to a too long toe.
My horse can walk on hard ground and gravel and can turn small circles and can trot on grass, but can't trot comfortably on hard surfaces yet. He has no rotation, and the attending vet feels it was a mild case. She wants me to trim the toes back when appropriate, but I wondered what your opinion would be about the time frame for trimming,
Thanks.
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 2:39 pm:
Nancy,
I don't have much pasture for my 4 horses, (barely 3 acres) so looking over the height of the grass, barely there yet, and the frosts we've been having, I decided to put them back on the track, PP, which is basically "dry lotted" as there isn't much to graze on the track. I think they'd be fine with grazing 2 hours a day; but there is a slight chance of the conditions causing a problem IMO.
So, I don't have TOO MUCH grass by any means, so for me it's a combination of preserving what I have for grass, AND being cautious.
Very early, very dry spring for us!
As to the comment about having a lab in your basement, I agree. I have heard don't graze them on frost covered grass, wait til it dries. Graze early in the morning, not in the late afternoon or evening. Grass all night when it's coolest. NO clover. NO this, no that, but this, but that.
Funny, but I used to plant red clover every other spring, let my horses graze mid day to introduce them to grass, then graze 24/7 with pasture rotation.
A theory I have is this: perhaps the fertilizers, weed killers, we put on pastures, combined with LESS movement, to much feed, is why there is such a fuss about the sugars in grasses being a problem?
o.k., off my hay bale, er, um, soap box now.
Good news from the vet, huh? Best of luck.
|
Member:
vickiann
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 3:07 pm:
Glad to hear that there was no rotation and that this was a minor case, Nancy.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 20, 2010 - 4:15 pm:
Yes, we are really lucky! I wish he did not have to have a muzzle on, but for now it's what is working best.
Angie, I agree with you - sugars in the grasses are only PART of the problem. As my husband says -Marshall Dillon rode from Hays to Dodge and then told the livery stable to "give him a few oats". Seems we all need to ride from Hays to Dodge more often! I understand now what you mean about the dry lot, I was just having a blonde moment....
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2010 - 11:24 pm:
OK, here's my update on the laminitis situation. Feivel and the other 2 horses have been muzzled since April 10th, and each of them has lost about 1" around the girth. They have their muzzles on almost all the time, except when they are in their stalls, eating their hay out of small mesh hay nets. I feel as if I am monitoring them so closely that I might just go insane. The muzzles are OK, but they are causing some hair loss/rubs already, and it's not even hot yet. SO, I am going to have to consider making a dry lot around the barn so they can hang out there, and go in and out of the stalls, so they can go muzzleless for a while every day.
Angie, have you had any trouble at all with horses and your electric fence for your "path". My husband is worried that if I block off an area around the barn with electric fencing that there will be all sorts of problems and that the horses will escape and etc.
My other issue is - HOW do you make a dry lot where grass has grown for years? I have mowed and mowed my paddock down, and have turned my horses out in it, but there is still too much grass in it to turn them out in it for long, and so then the grass grows back and I have to mow, and..... it's a never ending circle. There is too much grass for them, so I can't turn them out in it, and if I can't turn them out, I can't get rid of the grass. Does anyone else have this problem???
Angie, has your one horse with the "foot issue" gotten better hooves since you have done the PP?
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 28, 2010 - 11:29 pm:
Angie, you said your fence was electrified. Did you use solar to electrify it?
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 7:13 am:
Nancy my dry lot started out as quite grassy also. I used elec fence and made it smaller, moving the fence as the grass got grazed to nothing and trampled. The clover still grew tho!!! Since spraying the clover out my drylot is now pretty much a drylot. My elec fence is "hard wired" and my horses won't go near it!
If you want to make one immediately roundup goes a long way in killing everything including grass. You do have to keep the horses off of it for a few weeks depending on rainfall, but then you are done with it.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:10 am:
Diane, I like the idea of an electric fence to make the small area even smaller, and let them work on that.
Thanks!
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:45 am:
OK, here's the latest thing I find:
"New academic study indicating that track fencing alone does not increase horse movement: Australian Brumby Research Unit."
This is from a link from the paddock paradise website.
They did a study, and the larger the turnout area, the more the horses traveled - in other words, for me to build a small track will probably accomplish nothing. Horses move more in big areas, so the track would have to be quite large.
A horse is a 20' x 20' paddock (which is about my dry lot size size) only traveled an average of about 1/2 mile all day. which is less than they would get if I hand walked them around the pasture once a day. And there was no evidence that a "track" made horses move more - I guess that what I am seeing are the success stories with tracks, like Angie's, and I worry that I'll put up a track and the horses will ignore it. And my husband will start divorce proceedings. And I am only half kidding!
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 9:29 am:
Nancy,
My horses dry lot is about 180 x 60 feet; kept that way from 4 horses being in it constantly, even over the summer nothing grows in it. So in there, they do not move at all trust me!
My track is around (inside perimeter) a fairly square pasture that is 1 and 1/3 acres...I think that makes it around 200 x ? seems to me 200 x 200 feet is an acre? O.k., it's 208 feet by 208 feet, an acre is 44,000 feet for an easy to remember number. (just googled that)
If you feed hay by spreading it in wisps all over the track, they will move more. I know, I look out at my horses all day long, and with the track open, they are in different spots! (o.k., right now they are standing by the gate waiting to go in the pasture! I am waiting for the frost to dry off the grass!)
Even after I put 2 slow feeders in the track area, I am convinced they still move more. Yes, they stand at the feeders working on getting the hay out, but with 2 feeders for 4 horses, there seems to be an exchange going on all the time. Sometimes 1 at one feeder, 3 at another, 2 at one, 2 at the other. My feeders currently are NOT placed at the opposite ends of the track; if I do that, it would be more movement. Even so, they still go to the far corner and nose around there. There is some grass popping up, and if we'd ever get rain, (please pray for us in Upper MI,we are sooo very dry!!)it maybe grow again even on the track. I suspect it will take a few years of use to completely eliminate it.
As for that study, well, if people seriously think horses should be in 20 x 20 paddocks, and can get enough movement, well, I don't know how to even respond to that. Sorry, I know many of you have horses in dirt paddocks who live in stalls 12 or more hours a day, and you love your horses very much and it's the best you can do. I liken it to people having dogs in the city, and the dogs live in the kennel except for a few hours (or minutes) a day when the master comes home. Not right in my mind.
A 20 x 20 dirt paddock is better than stalled 24/7 of course.
As for the track, My horses have never gotten close to going through the electric fence. I tied small strips of twine string on it at first so they could see it. Small strips of cloth work too, like old bedsheets. They know what a fence is! It's run off of an electric fencer, not solar, no experience there.
I think some people set up the paddock paradise as a "maze" also. Not one that ends in the middle with a bench and cool drink, ;-), but set up so that isn't not just a perimeter track. I don't think I'd ever do that, cuz I think what I have is good enough, but it may work for you?
Oh, hmmm...how small of area were you thinking of building your track? Just around the barn? That would make sense not being big enough to encourage movement. And I think it may help if they see each other?
To answer your hoof question, my poor horses are all in different periods of "transition" from my self taught trimming work! I don't think just one thing makes a difference in hoof pathologies. It's a good trim, keeping a bevel on, movement, and diet. No one has laminitis, or lameness. All have improved and I am pretty sure the track didn't hurt at all!
As I think I said in my other discussion, I thought my horses had calmer attitudes, and lost a few pounds. I do believe "having some place to go" makes a difference with horses.
The only other thing I can think of is placing different salt, mineral, and goody blocks around the track helped too, except I had a problem spending money on some of that, and the goody blocks they ate right up!
Can you draw a rough diagram of your place? Maybe some HA member would see something helpful. I drew mine out, pretty easy with all squares and rectangles! Lots of dreams like for rocks, and water puddles, and hills; hasn't happened yet!
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 10:18 am:
Angie, thanks for your response here. I just want to do the right thing, for the horses as well as for myself.
My husband and I discussed this, and what we are going to try to do is connect the two small paddocks (BTW - my smaller one is about 80' x 30", I must have had brain overload to say it was 20 x 20!), the other paddock is a triangle that is about 150-200 on each of three sides. We're going to mow down the grass there, and turn them out with their muzzles on until it turns to dirt. We have to put up a fence to connect the two paddocks so that they have access to the stalls for run in, and my husband suggested initially putting up some round pen panels instead of electric, so I am going to see if that works first. Though I like the idea of electric, we would have to do solar, and that does not give off as powerful of a charge as from a power line. And we have the round pen panels already!
The idea of a horse being in a stall or a 20x20 pen is NOT what I want for my horse, despite his IR - and I think his feet would get worse and not better from standing and not moving.
In a way, I think that this will be a "minitrack" in that they will have 3 areas to go into and see what is up, and the gates are wide enough, there should be no problem,
Mostly I appreciate your advice/comment about your hoof form/function. I am also a self taught trimmer, and 3 horses feet are really great, no problems, but the IR horse has - and has always had - flat soles. I know he needs to move more, and I think the muzzle thing is making him move LOTS more than he did before.
The biggest trouble for the PP idea is that i have TWELVE acres in a square, and the idea of trying to set up a track inside that entire acreage is daunting in time and expense. AND I think that since it is so large of an area, that it might be different for horses than an acre that is made into a track.
I read Diane's post about her horse changing temperament being off the grass, and I have noticed the same thing. They are still "big eaters' but seem calmer and less agitated about food.
Thanks again for your support - I have another horse nearing the end of his life, and I think my mind is going to explode if I am not careful...
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 3:32 pm:
LOL don't explode Nancy, once you figure it out it becomes second nature. Hank and Sam are quite IR and right now they are grazing about 4 hrs. a day, once summer hits they live pretty normally.
They don't come anymore flat footed then Hank and he still has the tell tale signs of his past founders YES plural.
I have a dry lot that is about 200yds long and 100 yds wide, it has some grass at one end and they suck on that all day, don't know what they get but it seems to keep them semi-occupied. My horses are constantly moving in their dry pen, it is big enough that I see them canter in it quite often. They bicker and chase each other ect. They get stemmy hay in the morning and at night and not much as the grass is keeping them quite fat enough!!! I'm not one that worries that they need to be eating all the time, except when it is extremely cold in the winter, it hasn't seemed to have any ill effects on them. I did worry about vit/min when their total diet was "crappy" hay when they needed to loose a massive amount of weight and started using a ration balancer.
Now that they get a few hours grazing it isn't as big of a concern.
Sorry to hear about your older horse, my old mare is trying to drive me nuts too.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:17 pm:
This is great news and I had to share - my old horse, who has been really looking miserable for the last 3 weeks - well, he popped an abscess in his hind foot and is his normal self again. I knew that he looked and felt awful, but it just looked as if his entire rear end was giving way, but an abscess popped today and he was perky and cantering all over the place tonight!! I had NO IDEA he had an abscess - glad I waited a few days to see if he would get better.
And we got our fencing up today, so we are ready for mini PP.
And I didn't go insane. LOL!
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:40 pm:
Nancy,
If you think about a horses natural way of being, they are foragers. In the wild, they walk, trot or gallop from place to place to find food, water and other goodies. we make it convenient for them ( and us) and put everything in one place, so its only a few steps, between the food, water and hay, thus they don't move as much as they should.
The purpose of the "track" is to make them move in a more natural pattern, so they have different places to stop on their path to nowhere, so if you set up different feed/hay/ water stations in different parts of their "track" that works the best. You make it narrow, so that it sort of funnels them to move through it and they don't stay in one place for very long.
You have a lot of acreage to use, you should be able to put something workable together.
As far as the grazing on the "track' or in general goes I'd figure out how many days it would take to graze down a section to just about nothing (horses are amazing ground clearers) then I would section off a part at a time and leave them be, let them clear it themselves. If you can make the space they are in narrow but long, they will make their own path in no time and you won't have to limit how long they stay out because there won't be enough grass in the track to worry about.
Here is a story about how I got my paddock area and back yard cleared.
When I moved into my house in 1996, except for a small back yard the back 2/3rds of my 1.5 acre property was all thick woods. No where was there enough of an area to keep my two horses for which I bought the house in the first place (tired of paying board bills). I decided if my horses were to live there, they would have to earn their keep. So, I brought them home and roped off an area using already existing trees as fence posts, they amused themselves with all the different edible items ( and probably some not so edible). Thankfully they did not get sick. Every couple of days my husband and I would go in and take out the stuff they did not eat, mostly twigs and small branches, as they cleared each small area we moved the ropes to give them more eating room. It took a couple of months, but they eventually cleared almost an acre and stayed in that area with only boat rope to keep them in. They earned their keep. Over the years we lost some trees due to severe storms, so now I have about an acre of totally cleared land most of which the horses did themselves.
The moral of this story is let your horses clear out their own track, confine them in a small enough area until they've got the grass down and gradually let them get to the rest of it. If you can do this with the configuration you have great, if not. I would suggest some sort of electrified fence system like a Grazier Fence line ( electrified portable paddock)that you can move easily to enlarge the area.
Have fun
Rachelle
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2010 - 4:35 pm:
Rachelle, this is certainly food for thought. So, I roughly estimated how much acreage would be in a path about 20" wide that ran the perimeter of the fence. Since the dimensions of my pasture are about 700' (or so) by 600' (or so) the acreage with in the path itself would be about 4 acres. Part of what I have built already is about 1/2 acre, so I am going to see how long it will take them to eat that down before I invest in the fencing to do the perimeter. Unfortunately for me, 3 of my 4 horses are currently muzzled, so I have no idea how long it will take them to eat down 1/2 acre. I mowed the area today - the grass - not seeds but grass - was over 2' tall. I mowed it down to about 4-6". My entire pasture is about like that, with a few areas of sparseness.
Also, when they move to a new area, did the areas which they "ate down" remain low? I mowed down my small paddock, and they had that down to nothing, as soon as it rained, I went in to mow and the grass was 4" long. I think the "grass fairy" came and seeded it for me., I could not believe how much it grew in 2 days.
But I like your suggestion and I am going to see how long it takes for them to eat down the 1/2 acre. If it takes longer than a week, I'll have to rethink maybe doing this in the winter when there is snow on the ground and no grass.
Nancy
|
Member:
rtrotter
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2010 - 6:35 pm:
Nancy,
I'd make the 1/2 acre into a 1/4 of an acre and take the muzzles off. 4 horses will eat that much without getting too much within a couple of days, If your path is only 20 feet wide, you could just run some boat rope back and forth and then move that as they get down to dirt. You might get some re-growth,( I didn't but I was dealing with a much smaller area) but once they get the hang of the track and move around it more and get more exercise I don't think the grass growth ( and or their grass eating) will be a problem. The whole idea of the track is to keep them moving, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure you should be mowing your grass, since when it is tall it is the least stressed and has the lowest sugar content, so if you are dealing with IR, you may be trying to do the right thing in the wrong way(mowing)
Rachelle
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2010 - 8:27 pm:
Nancy,
I've been having computer problems, so just got back on here.
The 20' wide isn't mandatory. If you make it narrower, the will spend less time there; watch horses, they will be more apt to run through a smaller area. If I were blessed with more acreage, and a longer growing season, my track would be different widths. Hmmm...I don't know how wide the woods trail is that I use as part of my track. Add measuring that to my to do list.
I hope your are using the step in temp posts except for corners? If you do, you can easily..well, kinda "easily" change the width if you decide something isn't working.
I agree with Rachelle on the mowing, I think the new growth has the highest sugars. I mow my pastures too; or rather I used to back when we got WATER FROM THE SKY , but I only mowed to prevent weeds from going to seed. I mowed at the highest setting about 3 1/2 inches. Now that we have a pull behind sprayer outfit for weed killer, I only mow the poop areas and under the fence.
From what I understand of the PP concept, and IR horses, and my knowledge of hoofs so far, the more movement the less concern with how much they are grazing, and the more mature the grass is the better? As in less rich?
I think if I spent as much time RIDING as I do trying to make my horses lives perfect, both me and the horses would be leaner and in better health, lol! Don't know about you, but by the time I study hoofs, pastures, move fencing, clean manure, I don't have the energy to ride!
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
I found through my experiment that my horses did do much better on tall more mature grass than the short next to nothing grass it didn't set off their IR symptoms half as much, tho care does need to be taken because they can eat twice as much, twice as fast leading to weight gain. I did like Rachelle, started with a small pen about 100 ft by 50 ft. left the horses eat it down to nothing, fed their hay on it (trampling affect) and the grass soon disappeared. Once that area was trashed I started moving the fence in about 3ft increments, that way their grazing was controlled yet they had some, and soon trashed that. Didn't take long before I had a dry lot...(except the thriving clover (can you tell I hate that stuff ) You'll just have to experiment with it. I have step in stakes and moved the fence easily would take 2 minutes and the horses looked forward to their grazing time without muzzles.
|
Member:
scooter
|
Posted on Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 8:40 am:
Nancy I had to share you are not in this boat alone, since you are in Il. you may have had that few inches of rain that came through yesterday. I went out this morning (the horses were locked in paddock) and it is SOOOO green, it is almost blinding VERY pretty. My horses aren't going to see any grass until the summer heat except to move the fence as I described. They may not be able to "move" a lot...but they will be able to move painlessly with no founder. ( I hope sometimes they LOOK at that green stuff and founder!)
It sounds as if Angie doesn't get the spring rains we do, so location does need to be considered.
Here's my dry lot in the midst of vibrant green, lush pasture. You can't see the whole dry lot, to the right of the picture it goes aways, it does have a little grass over there (which is even making me a little nervous now!) We will run the heifers through there now and the horses will stay on hay. Have you thought about getting cows
 LOL I have a red heifer my husband would love to get rid of!!!
|
Member:
ajudson1
|
Posted on Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 10:44 am:
Diane,
I would love to have all your green pasture! I'd even take the red heifer with it, lol!
We got .15" of rain last night, had fog this morning. Storms all around us last night, seems mother nature is holding an umbrella over us. Haven't even had much snow the last couple of years, and usually that is up to our eye balls mid winter!
Can I place a hay order with you? Or Nancy? 5-600 bales, delivered please. No clover or alfalfa of course.
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 12:04 pm:
Thanks you guys for your input!!!
This is what I did about mowing - I used a rotary mower in the 1/2 acre, so the grass is about 4-8" tall, which, as far as I have read, is the "optimal height" for growth. Not stressed, but not too high so they don't get as much in one bite. When they are on grass 2' tall, it takes them about 10 minutes to gain 50#.
My horses are ALL big eaters (LOL) and right now they are BCS 6+ (or even 7) so I think what I will do is maybe put TWO in at a time (except the one recovering from laminitis, he really has to stay muzzled right now) That way, they won't be on the grass 24hr/day, I think that is the key right now for keeping their weight under control. In the very small paddock, I used the riding mower, and the grass there is about 1/8" high (if that), this is so short that I don't think they can do much with it. So far, they mostly just run around in it, but that is good! But now that it has rained, it will pop up again, so will that be stressed grass - or do I let them eat that down? Suggestions?
Angie, I have 4 pretty aggressive horses (food wise, not with me!) , and one of them is blind, I am am thinking that anything much less than 20" might be a problem, They are all over 15'2" and are pretty big - even when not fat (LOL)
Diane, yes I got the rain, and boy is the pasture green here too. I had them in the dry lot last night, and then muzzled them this morning for their "out time". The 1/2 acre paddock is on the side of a hill, so it's way to muddy to put them on this morning without risking a pulled tendon or some other such misery to come my way.
I DO ride or work at least one of my horses nearly everyday, and I am just getting so SICK of this management thing, I could just scream! I agree Angie, life would be so much easier without all this hoof trimming, manure pick up and etc. It IS starting to make me reconsider having horses. All winter I could not ride, and now this stuff. I would never board my horses, but I am tempted!!!!
Here's my other problems about setting up a track around the 12 acres - first of all, the entire track would be at least 2500' long, maybe 3000' - and so you guys think about putting up that long of a fence by yourself. Not something I think I can do, frankly. And I have no electricity there - it is across the street from my house, and 10 years ago we thought about putting power up there and they quoted us about $3000 when all was said and done. That's just not going to happen, so I'd have to do solar, and that has its own issues.
SOO - I'll see what happens with this 1/2 acre - thanks for your suggestion to cut it back to 1/4 acre, that will be the ticket. No matter what, they will be able to move around the barn in a circle, and though it's not a real track, they should keep moving
And Angie - would LOVE to make hay from my property, actually, but can really find no one interested. It's too small of an acreage LOL!!
|
Member:
gwenyth
|
Posted on Saturday, May 1, 2010 - 12:46 pm:
I found this on the IR/Cushing's website - food for thought:
"Best thing to do is test the horse and not the grass. Grass is going to be
unacceptably high no matter what the stage of growth, time of day, weather, etc.
for an unmanaged or especially sensitive IR horse. Know your horse. If his IR is
well managed and he's working, you can try limited grazing, perhaps with a
muzzle, early in the morning (but NOT on frosted grass!) or rainy, cloudy days.
If it were me, I would cultivate the grass to make sure it was as healthy as
possible and then, based on my horse, allow limited grazing during safer times
of day, after exercise or, if I couldn't control IR, not at all. In that case, I
would sacrifice an area to make a drylot or "paddock paradise."
I've done the same thing you're proposing - cutting back the grass, and ended up
with a large area with a lot of erosion. I spent a lot of time filling in
ditches and reseeding this spring. It's much more productive to restrict grazing
with muzzles, increase exercise to control IR and maintain healthy pastures by
reseeding, fertilizing and rotating. I do test pasture, but only to get
information for mineral balancing. Carbohydrates fluctuate so much for so many
different reasons - it's a futile exercise."
|
|
|
