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Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 11:28 am:

My horse has been in the past few years ago two times intubated - with hardly any resistance . Using twitch , I cannot remember if sedative has been given at the time .

This time he has had fewer and wouldn't eat . Has been injected with Afluzin (to reduce fewer ) and Terramicina . After two days there was not much improvement .

The Vet decided to intubate him, to increase the movement inside . The vet had an assistant with him . - two strong men .
The horse was very difficult - twitch was slipping off him - he was rearing, backing striking . It was terribly violent .
Tranquilizer was not administered as the blood has shown
high" bili rubin" and Vet has been worried about liver overload.

Did anybody had this sort of experience ? What would you do IF ?

And next time the horse will be just as difficult and worse ?!

TWITCH. How big you do have the rope loop ?

The intubation helped, but I am not happy about the way it had to be done.
.
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 2:44 pm:

Anna-Marie,
I think we have all been thru this at one time or another and it is not a good situation. I, personally, don't believe in twitching. Unfortunately, it sounds like it was done to possibly save your horse's life?? There are methods to teach your horse to accept things like intubation, but they take time and patience, but well worth it. That said, if the vet isn't respectful and patient with the horse, all the training in the world won't help if the horse is frightened. My vet made the mistake of coming at my mare too quickly (he was doing what he normally does with all horses) and held tight to the lead rope, to dose her with wormer one time. She went over backwards and the vet was very upset. He checked her out and she was fine. From that day forward he warned all his vet techs not to restrain her too closely and to approach her gently and there has been no trouble since. She recently had a coffin joint block, vet had to try three times to get into the joint, and she stood like a rock....no sedation and definitely no twitch. In the case of your horse, you have the final say as to whether or not you allow anyone to twitch your horse. You must decide if it is necessary, or have enough trust in your vet to follow his wishes. I have allowed my horses to be twitched on the rare occasion when I knew it was a last resort and medication or treatment was absolutely necessary. I am so sorry you and your horse had to go through this and hope you never need to go through it again.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 5:19 pm:

Kathleen , I must enlarge on this - HOW do I agree with you - thank you !!
The vet started to shave him - to show me where to find the vein - great - but Violino protested to the sound and feel of the razor . I asked the vet to stop and literally pulled the razor out of his hand - and gentelled my horse with the razor , let him smell it, hear it from far and close and all went well . ,,,,

Now I have to work with him to get him back. I know he IS very sensitive to pulling/pressure onh is holster . Hope to get him back , like you've managed with your horse . The trouble is, many people here think brute force will fix it all .
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 6:13 pm:

How volatile a horse becomes about this procedure seems to vary, even for the same individual.

In my experience, I don't think that it necessarily becomes easier because a horse has had it done a time or two, though I would like to think so.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 7:15 pm:

Hello Anna Marie,
I am sorry to hear about your ordeal. The alpha-2 agonist, xylazine and detomidine, we commonly use in the horse is eliminated by filtering through the kidneys and is not processed or eliminated by the liver so can be used. I would use lower doses in horses I thought toxic. Acepromazine requires liver procession and would be contraindicated in cases of liver disorders.

The rope loop of a twitch can be too small and too big. It has to fit comfortably but not real loose over the lip before tightening.
DrO
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 4:09 am:

Dr. O , thank you very much for the reply /explanation. I will digested/study it together with my husb. when he returns home .

.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 4:15 am:

Kathleen, how do you train a horse to accept intubation ?
Violino excepts me cleaning his nose, but with deworming is difficult - I put his dewormers in to feed and he eats it . I should start with training him to get used to the dewormer applicator with some apple juice/honey ?
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 10:34 am:

One thing you can do is to get him to accept you putting your fingers deeper and deeper into his nostrils. You do it step by step, not going to the next step until he is comfortable with each step. If he is comfortable and will stand with your fingers just inside a nostril, then just scratch/rub him and move fingers just a little more. If he starts to move, DON'T stop him from moving his feet. That's when they start getting frightened because of the fight or flight that in instinct to them. If they can move their feet they are more likely to accept what you are doing. If possible, keep your fingers in position while he is moving and then take them away as soon as he stops (timing is very important and will come to you as you work with him). That gives him a reward for stopping moving his feet. Do what they call advance and retreat. When you sense that he is about to move or get scared, then retreat to a place where he is comfortable and praise him and even give him a treat. Release of pressure is positive reinforcement. Pain is negative enforcement and doesn't work in the long run. Never give him a treat to get him to do it, but ok to give it when he has done what you asked. Sometimes you have to learn to accept the smallest try and some days may not make it past that. Stop when he is relaxed and comfortable and take it up another day. Always try to stop when he is relaxed so that he will go a away with something good to think about and then he will be more likely to accept the next session without as much resistance. Always remember to respect his natural instincts, but when he moves, try to stay with him until he stops. For instance, if you are touching him on the outside of a nostril and he starts to move, keep your hand where it is and move with him until he stops. That is not always possible, so don't put yourself in danger. Sometime he may just lift his head or turn his head away from you. You do the same thing as if he moved his feet, advance and retreat. If you feel he is not receptive and is going to get worse, then just do a little (or go to something you know he is comfortable with....you should keep in mind that the goal you seek is for him to accept whatever you are doing and sometimes you may have to retreat to something that doesn't upset him that has nothing to do with his nostrils) until he stands and is quiet, then quit. This may take a few minutes (not likely) to a few weeks. Just remember to go slowly and stop on a good note so that he is ready for the next time. Also doing this with everything you do with him will help. This isn't really about teaching him to stand for intubation but to accept whatever you ask of him, with respect of him and getting respect from him.

Understand, I am not an expert, this is just the way I would do it. You can learn more by studying Pat Parelli (my favorite) or Dennis Reis, or one of many Natural Horsemanship methods. Hope this helps
Kathleen
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 6:13 pm:

Dr. O,
xylazine or detomidine are administered intravenously or intra-muscular ?
I wonder if the Vet had it with him or ??
Thank you .
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 10:15 pm:

Anne Marie, look under Training and Behavior on the menu at the left. Click on the topic: Behavior Modification, Conditioning, Desensitization, and Counter Conditioning Horses. This is a really good article and you can apply it to everything from worming, to vaccinating and I bet you can figure out how to break it down and apply it to intubation as well. Baby steps and rewarding the smallest improvement are key. Anytime things don't go well, just assume you need to break the procedure down into smaller steps. Good luck!
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 4:06 am:

Good girls, thank you - will do .
Why people don't like TWITCH ? And how does it actually work ?

The vet started to restrain my horse by twisting his ear . I didn't like it either . How that is supposed to work ? They -the horses actually love me massaging their ears and cleaning them from all the biting buggers....

They let me clean their ears, eyes , nose, - I can put my finger into their noses. I clean them every day - put olive oil on their ulcers inside (noses) .
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 11:06 am:

Anna-Marie,

I think the trouble comes in the approach. My race mare is very funny about anything having to do with her face and or ears. I can massage them and handle them in most situations, she will even put her head down and let me scratch her ears and she is very easy to bridle. So I know its not her ears per se that are the problem. However, If I try to put her earplugs in to race, unless I do it a certain way she has a hissy fit, once they are in she's fine. She's a mare that has to be finessed and can not be manhandled and if someone tried to grab her ear, they would find themselves getting trampled, kicked, bit and struck at. There are certain vets that can handle doing anything to her and not have a problem and there are other vets that can't even get near her stall door without her charging at them with her ears flat back and her teeth bared.

SO I tend to think that it was the approach by the vet more than anything that set off your horse and I don't think, at least I hope it doesn't, it will affect the hard work you have done getting him to be accepting of all you do.

I had a horse about 30 years ago, that you could not twitch. He would literally keel over and pass out. Anything I did to him was done very slowly and I instructed the vets that handled him to do the same. He didn't even need to be tranquilized, even for tube worming which was done a lot more frequently back then than today. I never had a problem.

Perhaps if the vet would not have anticipated having a problem and attempted the approach a little differently the outcome would have been different. For now, I think the next time I would try it first with out the twitch and see what your horses reaction would be.

Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 11:27 am:

Your story reminds me of an experience I had long ago with a vet in Texas. My very sweet, well trained Arab, who happened to be a stallion, had a deep cut that needed suturing. My mom and I took him to the local vet (who I imagine dealt mostly with cattle.) The first thing the guy did was put a twitch on the horse's ear! This started an epic battle which horrified me to the point that I told the vet to give me the suture kit and I'd do it myself. The obviously terrified vet handed me the kit. My mom and I calmed the horse down then my mom fed him grain while I sutured his leg, with no anesthetic. I always felt the vet was afraid from the minute he learned the horse was a stallion. I've had one other bad experience since, with a local vet that imo is terrified of large animals and should limit his practice to small ones.

Your experience has very little to do with your horse, and almost all to do with the vet. Is there another vet you can use in the future who is more experience with horses?
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 2:13 pm:

Sara and Rachelle, I think you are right, it's the approach that causes most of the problems. As in the case of Mona, approach is everything and the vet realized that and changed the way he handles her. Unfortunately there are way too many equine vets whose first line of action when anything needs to be done is to twitch, whether the horse is a problem or not. Mona CANNOT be twitched. When she was scoped many times for ulcers, I warned them that she could not be twitched and they found out when they twitched her that they had to give her more sedation because she came completely out of the sedation. As to twitching in general, most people say it is not painful, but i don't believe it; Mona would not come out of heavy sedation if it just put pressure and distracted the horse as most people believe. It is useful if the health or safety of the horse and/or person is threatened. I say NEVER to ear twitching. Just my humble opinion.

Anna-Marie, it does sound like your horse is just fine. Problem was most likely the vet's approach. Is he still OK with you touching him on the nose? Sometimes, with sensitive horses, what the vet did to your horse will make them head shy (usually temporary), at least that has been my experience.


Kathleen
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 5:37 pm:

Rachelle , Sara, Kathleen, very, very interesting experiences !
I agree with all of your opinions !..
Violino is clever, sensitive young horse . Previous intubation has been done on him years ago by a young woman vet with her assistant man, also vet and active rider . They did use twitch, but there was no problem .
Violino is accepting me as before, I can touch his head, nose, ears inside, outside .
Trubador - he is bit head shy now. He doesn't like this vet .
We do have choice of vets, all minimum one hour away . There is one, very gentle and experienced , but hard to get him on time .
Gosh, Sara, I'd love to see you with your mum treating your stallion ! Skin is not easy to penetrate with a needle .
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 7:01 pm:

Anna-Marie, my mom was a registered nurse and I'd worked as a surgeon's assistant, besides those larger c-shaped suture needles are really sharp! And, as with all the horses I've ever owned, I can accomplish a lot with food!

Kathleen, I agree about the ear twitching. I have used a nose twitch, the kind that clamps like a clothes pin, on mares when we used to hand breed. If the mare moved a muscle like she was going to kick, I twitched her nose. Much better than having our stallion kicked and his leg broken!
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 8:36 pm:

All, I use a small or medium blanket clamp and I put it on the meaty part of my horses chin. I also have had luck with using a lead shank with a chain under my horses upper lip. I use these things very sparingly and only when absolutely necessary.
Rachelle
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 11:27 pm:

Excellent ideas Rachelle. I never can find those stupid blanket clamps when I need them, and I buy several each year. I think they ran off with the extra leg straps I saved!

While on the subject, I've found with my stallions, and I'd guess it would work with any horse, if I run a shank chain through their mouth and tie it from one side of the halter to the other like a bit, or use a snaffle the same way, it gives them something to take their mind off of being lead past the girls during breeding season for instance. I never have a lead attached to the chain or snaffle; it's just there for them to mouth. It seems to calm them right down for a lot of things. I don't like lip chains because a lot of people don't know how to use them, and they are easy to mis-use in inexperience hands - as are many things.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 7:29 am:

Sara,

I think it depends on how much distraction one needs to get the job done as quickly as possible.
With my nervous horses, I hang a heavy duty dog choke chain on the side that seems to calm them down.

With my colt this winter, I used a soft cotton rope as a lip chain(rope) and to run through his mouth for something to chew on. Just to keep him busy and occupied, so he wasn't trying to bite me.

Since I turned him out with the mare, though, his biting is 99% stopped.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 8:31 am:

Years ago my Arab mare needed ointment put in her eye. Don't recall what the vet all did checking her eye, but it freaked my mare out so that she would not accept me treating her. I tried grabbing her ear, made it worse! Took a long time to UN-DO that fear! I tied a leg up, tried a lip twitch, nothing did anything to calm her enough to let me put the cream in her eye.

What worked finally was I ran a stud chain through the upper ring of her halter, a few twists around the halter, under her upper lip, and hooked on the other side. Then I could step back and let it relax her. Even then it was hard to get near her eye, but I was able to do it. Thankfully the eye probably would have healed with or without medication!

She still cannot be approached quickly for any medical procedures though. Even vaccinations which I do myself, I have to have the right approach, and not even THINK she's going to react because if I do think one worried thought, it seems she perks right up and gets worried.

It took lots and LOTS of massage inside her nostrils, gently touching her face, her ears, and around her poll to regain her trust.

That is what I would advice with your horse Anna, lots of very gentle touching. A horse can feel the tips of your fingers barely touching his hair. If he blinks, it means it's a spot that is in need of a harder touch. Gently add pressure, massage that area, and watch his reaction. More blinking, licking, yawning, snorting, heavier breathing. Back away then, and see what he does.

You can do that at his poll, and along his spine, about 2-3" away from it on each side.

Than go back and work with getting inside his nostrils, and play with upper lip, massage his tongue if you can without getting bit of course. Rub inside his upper lip.

In other words, you are getting him really really relaxed, then going back to the spot that was a horrible experience for him, and gently asking him to be o.k. with it.

Once he is relaxing for you easily through touch, remember to do that next time before a vet comes for anything.

It's too bad vets aren't required to learn how to approach and relax a horse through touch before they do anything else to the horse. The assistant that used to come with my equine dentist was a genius with touch; he'd have all the horses heads hanging to their knees, no tranquilizer was ever used!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 11:10 am:

Rachelle, you are right - it all depends on the circumstance. I certainly wasn't implying you wouldn't know how to use a lip chain! So, please don't take it that way.

I was trying to mention other things that work because too often people (usually not all that experienced) are quick to hop to the more severe methods on control (vets included) when very often more of a distraction is needed than punishment.

btw - I sure wish the economy handn't gone in the tank. I would love to be part owner of a horse with you; thought that was really a fun idea!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 11:27 am:

Anna-Marie, you will find the information on the drugs, and much more, in the specific articles on these sedatives at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Sedatives & Anesthetics. I cannot speak as to whether your vet had these or not but they are considered mainstays of horse sedation by equine veterinarians.

As for the proper use of the twitch see the subtopic on twitch restraint at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Working Around Horses Safely.
DrO
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 12:38 pm:

Sara,

I did not take what you said personally at all. I just mentioned a few more ways, so that those that did not want to use a lip chain due to lack of experience had a few other options.

They also have chains with a plastic covering over the chain part that make the chain less severe. I think these are used to lock up pool gates in areas where there are no fences.

And yes, it would have been fun to form an HA partnership with a racehorse. Darn that economic down turn, I am now back to work forty hours a week and we are getting up at 4:30 am ( at least hubby is) so I can get them out on the track and done by 7 am and still get to work on time. I still love it and this schedule works out better than doing them at night.

Rachelle
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2010 - 2:06 pm:

Sara and Rachelle,
I'd join you, it has alway been a dream of mine to own a racehorse. Didn't know anything about trotters until I met my husband Dick. His grandfather trained them. And with Rachelle, we know we'd have a trainer with the same ethics and values we have regarding 'the horse comes first'. Maybe someday....
Kathleen
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Monday, Apr 26, 2010 - 5:46 pm:

Will read Dr. O.
Angie, will do . They both don't like me going into their mouths. And Trubi salivates like mad when I am grooming him.
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