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HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Spine, Back & Pelvis » Topics on Diseases of the Back Not Covered Above » Lordosis in Horses »

	Discussion on Can sway back cause hoof pain
Author	Message
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Apr 22, 2010 - 9:32 pm: Well here I go again with my weird vet, and lameness. Flash(almost 31 yo mare) has been showing signs of subtle lameness for a few weeks. Not stiffness, but a random limp, I thought it was her left front and maybe she did something to her tendon that she bowed last year. I could feel no heat or unusual swelling, but she didn't seem to want to load that heel completely. It came and went day to day.. hour to hour. When the farrier came she seemed a little better, but since her trim it got worse... she is not short trimmed, her hooves look good, she has never been sore after a trim before. I have been checking her hooves for digital pulses and heat, while she occasionally had a barely palpable DP it was very insignificant...no heat in hooves. So when the vet came I had him watch her walk, when I started walking her she started off a little short and then walked off OK. He immediately said founder, I really don't think it is. She turns fine, I couldn't even find her DP this morning and she has more of a limp (not significant) then stiffness. The only thing that throws me is she does seem a LITTLE more comfortable on soft ground. Tho her turns on hard ground is normal and she doesn't hesitate to walk on it nor does her stride change much. Her "limp" is noticeable more so on hard ground. She picks up her hooves willingly to be cleaned. I take her on handwalks and she crosses gravel soundly, and walks on the paved road fine. She just has a random limp occasionally.. not always SOOO to get to the point now, my vet said that horses with sway backs and hers is pretty swayed, blow out their heels from the pull of the DrOpped belly and swayed spine, and weighting their heels more due to this and that could be the problem.??? Once again he said to load her up with bute, which I'm not, in her pen she is moving "like her" no limp, no DP's NO heat in hooves. When she stands she doesn't seem to want to weight her LF heel completely all the time, much like when she bowed her tendon (not that bad, but similar) It does seem as if she has heel pain in that hoof, the farrier did take off more heel on her than usual because that heel was higher. It has grown that way since she bowed her tendon and I think lowering it may have been a mistake.. she was VERY slightly off once in awhile before her trim, worse after. IF the lower heel was aggravating the bowed tendon would there be heat in the tendon?? Can a sway back make them heel sore (blow out their heels) she has been sway backed for years with no problems as far as hooves anyway. I did start her on pergolide, more because of other things. It does seem to be helping her with with those things... I don't believe this subtle lameness to be involved with Cushings disease... I don't know what to think
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 7:22 am: Does she stand stretched out? Or has she been known to stand stretched out over the years? If the swayed back causes heel pain, I would think she'd stand spread out? Or would she rest her hinds a lot, and keep her front legs under her more to relieve heel pressure in the fronts? I don't know the answer, just asking more questions as I find it an interesting theory your vet has. I am tempted so say he don't know what is causing the lameness, so he's grasping straws, but maybe he is onto something?! Willow has a dip in her back, and she's stretching out when being saddled; but heel pain? I can see the back stretching different tendons/muscles differently I guess... What specifically is "blown out" in her heels in his opinion? Can't wait to see what DrO says! I am going to run this by my hoof gal, she does body work too. Verily interesting
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 7:55 am: She stands pretty square actually, if anything she tends to stand under herself a little. Her heel isn't "blown out" the vet says that happens overtime. He said he had a horse in his practice that had a swayed back (pretty significant, worse than Flashes)and hers is pretty bad, eventually his heels just broke down from the increased weight. He is always full of interesting theories and stories. In a strange sort of way it makes sense, tho I don't think that is Flashes problem. Taken April 3rd
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 8:00 am: PS her belly isn't as big as it looks, a lot of hair hanging down there. Since she has shed more I can see her ribs, she looks quite a bit like the pic I posted of Sam in my other thread.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 12:08 pm: Diane, FYI, my hoof guru thinks that's a pretty "kooky" sounding reason for lameness. She added that a good trim might help the sway back a tad; now that makes more sense to my brain cells. Just thought another viewpoint from someone who knows more than me would be interesting. I bet it's more trim, Cushings, and the alignment of the planets than it is her back causing lameness
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 1:35 pm: I would almost have to go with planet alignment, every once in awhile those stars really throw a loop in my horse world. I forgot to mention (and may be important) that it is most noticeable going downhill, on the level and going uphill she looks like her "normal" self. She does have arthritis, maybe that has been acting up. I don't know it's a hard call and I can't quite pin point it. I am going out now to try the boots with pads I got for Sam, if she improves that will tell me to look to the hoof, if not Dunno
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 3:11 pm: Hmm. I would be inclined to suspect that the angle change created by taking the heel down made her sore and that hopefully this will subside as she gets more accustomed to the change. And I'm having a hard time imagining why a swayed back would cause heels to "blow out," but when something breaks on a foot, if the foot has a well-balanced trim, what breaks off usually does so because it needs to break off (Self-trimming).
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 3:36 pm: I don't think I can blame the trim, she was limping before he trimmed her, she just got a little worse, could be complete coincidence. Started raining buckets so will have to wait on the boot experiment. I guess heels would make sense if indeed it is her hooves, wouldn't they weight their heels more going downhill?
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 3:48 pm: When my Lance had a painfully broken heel, if we were on a fairly steep hill he would go down it a little bit sideways or on a diagonal rather than just going straight downhill. It seems as though the hill would put even more pressure on the toes than the heels, doesn't it? Given Flash's age, I would suspect that there is likely some arthritis that might show up more on the hills. It could also be the reason for how she has been going recently.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 5:34 pm: I don't think it is her arthritis, too much change too fast. HMMM going down hills they would land more on their heel I would think, but not sure
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 6:55 pm: Well mystery solved...well at least localized to a body part. I put Sams easy boot RX's with pads on her and OH MY she looked awesome, better than she has for many years. I don't think it is her arthritis, because as you may know when horses first have boots on they walk high until they are used to them, she was snapping those legs like a 2 year old. Once she started walking "right" she looked really good even going down hill. SOOO the question remains where is her hooves bothering her and is it both of them Symptoms or non symptoms Absolutely no Digital pulses present in any hoof(no Nasids since Weds.) MAYBE a slight bit of heat at coronary band LF (MAYBE) very little if there is. Doesn't want to weight LF heel completely. No heat in any tendons that I can feel No thrush With boots and pads she looks wonderful and her eyes lit right up when they were applied, change in demeanor. SOOO what could I be dealing with here?? Dr.O. do you have any ideas. Could low grade laminitis due to CD "act" like this?
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 7:22 pm: Diane, I think that arthritis symptoms wax and wane and as seasons change adjustments must be made with regard to changing activity levels. Maneuvering hills involves different challenges than the flat. With regard to foot pressure on a hill, stick a block of wood under your heel and see where the pressure goes. Thick about wearing high heels. Is the greater pressure in the heel or the toe? For me it wants to dump me on my nose with the pressure going from the heel and then forward onto the toe.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 7:45 pm: BUT the change was immediate with the hoof boots and pads, that speaks hoof to me. I have to still disagree with the hill thing Vicki, if they landed on their toes they would be tripping down the hill. If all things are right within the hoof they should land heel first... now I have to go research that after supper!!!
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Apr 23, 2010 - 8:26 pm: OK looked around and it seems the horse should land heel first going downhill, Flash is avoiding landing heel first on the LF especially downhill. I wonder if she is brewing an abscess. https://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Breakover.html If you google heel first landing going downhill horse .... you will get a lot of hits.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 8:58 am: I think I have had another epiphany(a long story) Thinking about this lameness with Flash I think maybe she does have low grade laminitis and maybe has had it for awhile. I have suspected she was cushings for awhile, I even asked the vet this winter if he thought she was he said no at that time, I said I thought she was, but "symptoms" have been remaining pretty much under control. I had a post in here years ago about rear limb weight shifting, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was causing it. It was winter time and no snow...grass. Her fetlocks DrOpped(weighting rears more?) and she was very uncomfortable, not text book founder by any means. She got over it it seemed, but since then I haven't been able to pick up her back legs for trimming ect. I do get them cleaned out occasionally when she has one cocked. She does seem uncomfortable on her fronts sometimes, certainly nothing that screams laminitis, very obscure... blamed arthritis. Last summer she did shed out, but very slowly and immediately started growing her winter coat. We had a cool summer so she was ok and didn't over heat... she also has anhiDrOsis... she did sweat last year, not as much as "normal" but did sweat. She stopped coming in heat, except once in the spring. She became dull... passed off as old age. I noticed her WL had started stretching, while she has always had a tight WL. (nothing like Hanks or Sams) Blamed letting her get too long. She started peeing and drinking more this year. Very fatty orbitals. Hated being brushed or any attention..unless food was involved. stayed away from the geldings. Her symptoms have been sneaking up on me for about 6 years I think and none of them severe enough to say OH she has cushings Disease... I suspected but wasn't convinced. I did start her on pergolide about a week ago I think. Her attitude is brightening, she isn't drinking or peeing half as much, her lameness is improving, but still there. she likes being brushed and fussed over now. I don't know if I have the right dosage for her, I started her at .5 mg of pergolide and have worked up to .75 same as Sam will see how she does there in the next week. I guess I should put this under Cushings Disease header as this was kind of sneaky and other people may deal with this too.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 12:19 pm: Given Flash's age it wouldn't be too surprising that she would develop CD. This is a good reminder to pay attention to subtle changes that slowly evolve and a good reason to have a Vet who sees your horses at least a couple of times yearly. I have sometimes found it hard to accurately notice changes that evolve rather slowly. Glad to hear that you are getting good results from the Perigold,Diane.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Apr 24, 2010 - 2:00 pm: I let her in all of the paddock today and can still see that limp, I don't know for sure if this is laminitis, very strange presentation if it is, but so was Sam's, so will go with that unless something else presents itself. I think the pergolide is helping her... as always with horses time will tell
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 10:26 am: Flash is still limping. I have never seen laminitis cause a limp. I was checking her DP's which are absolutely quiet, but did notice where she bowed her tendon it was much less "filled" I wonder if she did something to that it wouldn't have any heat??? It is cool, I thought it had it's "normal" look, but it is remarkably less now. Dr.O. could she have strained that bowed tendon and have no heat present??? Thanks
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 10:44 am: As in almost every "could it be possible?" queries the answer is "yes". However that is not a diagnosis of the cause of lameness. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Apr 25, 2010 - 11:05 am: Dr.O. I am always left trying to figure out the lameness problems, the vet said laminitis, I again don't think so. The only thing being she did look better in boots and pads and seems a TINY bit better on soft ground. I hesitate that it is laminitis because she has no DP's, or heat in her hooves, she is a little hesitant to pick up her RF, but then again if her LF tendon was hurt again that would explain that too. Her tight turns are absolutely normal, she doesn't hesitate to walk on hard ground or gravel even without the boots. She doesn't look any stiffer then normal for her...she limps Tho not a significant limp it is definitely there...worse on a down hill slope. I guess regardless of the diagnosis the treatment is about the same. Rest and anti inflammatories, tho it would be nice to know what I was dealing with
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 - 4:15 pm: In mild to moderate laminitis I often find minimal heat and dps Diane. If you would like to know if it is the feet and whether it is bilateral a PDN block starting with the most lame leg will answer the question. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Apr 27, 2010 - 9:55 pm: Thanks Dr.O., my vet doesn't do blocks..sigh. She seems to improve with a little movement, when I was hand walking her she seemed to "walk out of it" Yesterday I left her in the drylot while I cleaned her stall and pen, she immediately went out and rolled, which I was glad to see, I wasn't sure if she was having a hard time getting up or down...she lies down at night. She actually got up and down very well, even managed to roll all the way over I did notice something else that is very strange, I was checking to see if she was dirty behind and she has NO tone to her tail. I lifted it straight in the air with no resistance at all. While I had it straight in the air, I tapped the base of her tail and she didn't/ couldn't even try to clamp her tail. When I let it go it just flops back down. I've repeated this everytime I am out there with the same results. She does seem to have anal tone. SO tonight I tried the tail pull test standing still and walking, she did well. I did some of the other neurolgical tests in the nervous system article and she did fine. I ran my fingers down her back and it doesn't seem to bother her. The only thing I got a reaction from was when I took her tail and flopped it all the way back on her back... that bothered her. She swats flies with her tail, and last time I saw her urinate she holds her tail up for that. There is absolutely no resistance to lifting it straight up and it flops right back when I let it go. I tried it on the geldings and they tried to clamp their tails, so obviously this isn't normal, does it indicate anything??? Thanks
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 4:53 pm: Cleaning Flashes hooves today I found a soft spot in her WL by her heel... looks like an abscess track...dug it out best I could she did have a bit of a reaction...got it to start draining a little...but just to add a little mystery to it, it was her RF...sigh. Didn't see anything in LF, and that's the one I THINK she has been limping on...I've called them wrong before tho...so hopefully I will see some improvement.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 8:38 pm: Maybe a bit of pain in the RF has caused more pressure, and therefore pain, on the LF? It can be a challenge sometimes to make these determinations.
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Apr 29, 2010 - 9:23 pm: A challenge is putting it mildly with her. I KNOW somethings up it is not her "normal" way of going. She has arthritis and probably some other issues at her age, but she has been pretty comfortable and hasn't shown any "lameness" since her bowed tendon healed. I got home early today and just observed her in the dry lot to see if I could pin point anything.. I CAN'T So I came in and read the article on diagnosing lameness.. she bobs down when RF is on the ground...so LF is the owie side RIGHT?? Sometimes she looks likes it could be both fronts, but man there is no heat, no digital pulses, no weight shifting, no odd stance, no refusal to pick up either hoof, no hint to help me EXCEPT she doesn't weight the LF heel completely when standing still some of the time. She is landing TOE first when walking. It does remind me of when she bowed her tendon (same leg) LF, not half as bad...not even close but it is very similar.. I can find no heat or "unusual" puffiness in that tendon, tho I do believe is was a little more swollen when she first came up lame She is bright, with good appetite, seems happy and opinionated as usual, Vitals are normal. She LOOKS really good. I just wonder if they all got running and fighting when Bonesy started going out with them, the timing is right as to when the lameness showed up. My vet just frustrates me in these situations I ran into him yesterday and he said the same thing about her as he did Sam. All I can do is keep her on large amounts of bute, she is old and that is her problem...NO it isn't! She is old and has her problems...but this is a separate ACUTE entity. He said it was all because of her sway back, anything I have read about that says sway backs don't normally cause problems in horses. When he was here last week he said it was maybe time to think about putting her down....sigh. He drives me nuts. He said the same of Sam too, and Sam hasn't looked this good in years (which he admitted himself when he was here) I am not blind I know if she is suffering a lot. I know she is up there in years and her time is probably getting short, but I just don't see it now. She has a limp(that isn't horrible) that came on suddenly. She isn't depressed at all, she gets up and down very well. She only lies down at night like she always has. She is a treat monster and appears quite happy actually (except about being locked up). Sorry about the rant, but it just irritates me that just because a horse is old and has an acute injury it is not a death sentence yet anyway! I just wish I could figure it out so I knew how or what to treat!!
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Apr 30, 2010 - 2:25 pm: I know how frustrating this must be. You are doing what you need to and that is keeping a close eye on her for any additional changes or clues. Sometimes our older horses do make themselves sore (including aggravating old injuries somewhat) through their antics -- especially on days when they are feeling frisky and younger than their years.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 2, 2010 - 1:23 pm: HMMM so I have been sitting on the deck enjoying a little R and R watching the horses ( I left Flash out with the rest of the herd in the dry lot...which has a slope to it. I noticed all the horses (limp).. have a head bob when going down hill...is that normal?? Even Bonesy does. Is this something I just noticed in all my years of horse ownership and it is "normal"???
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 2, 2010 - 9:29 pm: This crazy old mare is trying to drive me nuts I think... and I don't have far to go without her help!! She seemed to be moving ok around the drylot(tho I swear I see an almost imperceptible limp (LF), so when I turned the boys out for their hour of pasture, I decided to let her out too, she's pretty good at taking care of her self normally. After their hour I went down to catch her up and put her back in her pen before I brought the boys up.. they like to gallop and run, buck up the hill and I didn't want Flash doing that. That old battle axe started galloping circles around me, then did a big extended trot (for her) I saw no lameness or head bob at those gaits She actually looked pretty darn good considering everything. So since the little wench was running away from me I decided to bring them all up.. She beat the boys(really) in a gallop, buck, up the hill and looked darn good doing it When she got to the top of the hill I could see that barely perceptible "limp" at the walk.. why didn't it show up in the other gaits??? I thought she would look really bad at the trot but she didn't.. no limp(head bob) at all in the trot or canter in a circle or going straight. Is there a lameness that only shows up at the walk??? Her head bob at the walk is quite intermittent, but there and definitely not severe. I haven't given her bute for a few days, because she seems fine and I keep her in her paddock pen for the most part. What is up with these mares when they get old do they try to see if they can drive us insane??? The Old Mare Mission Statement MY mission in order to drive my mom nuts 1. limping for no apparent reason 2. Spit banamine or bute back in mom's face( I DON'T need it) 3. Lay down and pretend to be dead, and laugh when mom comes running out to look at me 4. Run like a wild Banshee when I supposedly have 3 hooves in the grave. 5. Beg for treats, mom can't resist POOR me 6. When the vet is here ACT really, really sick, so mom can worry! and be fine the minute he leaves. ECT ECT ECT ECT!!!! Gotta love these old gals they keep life interesting I don't know WTH is the matter with her LF, but I guess it isn't too serious, heck she may be faking for attention...wouldn't put it past the smart old broad Now I know why Hank is the way he is with a mother like that!
Member: canter	Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 7:36 am: Diane, I have no real answers, but I have seen a horse with an injured leg get silly and move like a dream. I think their excitement over rides common sense about the mild pain they feel and they ignore it. Couple of years back, Sparkles was on stall rest for a pasture injury - nothing huge, but I was being careful and conservative with making sure she had plenty of time to heal. She initially came in nearly 3-legged lame and it caused me to panic and do a Friday night emergency vet call. By the time the vet came, she was 90% better and it was fortunate I had a witness or no one would have believed how lame she was. Vet did everything to figure out the issue, including removing a shoe to search for an abcess. Did xrays, nothing showed up. Anyway, after about a week of stall rest and handwalking, I went out one day to do the same routine. I had planned on taking her outside to graze after I hand walked so had left a gait open. Walked her in to the arena, she looked out the door, saw the open gate and bolted at full gallop, lead rope flapping in the breeze. There was not a darn thing I could do about it. She flew down the driveway towards the front pastures, still without a shoe on the one front foot (road founder flashing in my mind). She got all the horses in front riled up and fortunately, before she got too close to the road, her interest in them caused her to stop near their fence. By then, all the horses were crazy and as I got near, she took off again behind the house, leaping over a paved walkway, back up to the driveway and then showed off the most amazing passage as she headed down the back towards her pasture mate. She tossed in some lovely extended trot for my benefit on the way. I finally rounded her up with the help of a bucket of feed, and 5 minutes of cursing her. Anyway, for a horse that was resting for an injury, her brain short circuited and she showed not one sign of lameness during that adventure. I extended the stall rest by 1 week to compensate for her trip around the barnyard, although that expedition did not make anything worse other than the 10 years she took off my life...
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 8:02 am: LOL Fran, they are something. I can just picture Sparkles doing that. Flash is no worse this morning either(still has her occasional head bob on downhill slope), actually she seems to be weighting her LF heel better now. NO heat in tendons or hooves or DP's... I guess this is my mystery lameness for the year. I am sure it isn't laminitis anyway...beyond that I am stumped Other than it has something to do with weighting that heel, and I suppose just about anything up the leg or in the back of the hoof could cause that. She's quite pleased with herself anyway
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 9:08 am: Diane, It's not just "old mares" that can drive you crazy. Mares, period! An hour before I had to leave to catch my flight to Florida, 5 weeks ago, I noticed Gem had a severely swelled RH leg. From hock to fetlock, with heat. All I could do was ask if my critter sitter could try to give her pain meds, and some tendon supplement I had left over. I think my friend was able to do that for about 4 days, but Gem is such a witch with entering and leaving her stall, plus my friend was doing chores her before and after her own job and chores; wasn't fun! She said Gem never acted sore on the leg, raced around and bucked up a storm, chased Tango around, her favorite pass time, and so forth. I just started working her again, thinking I'd start with at liberty work in the round pen, and she's still going wide open! The swelling is about half, and I feel a "thick" area, yet but she still isn't feeling any pain! Since this horse in on her last leg around here anyhow, ;-^), I figure if she don't think it hurts, WHATEVER!! Oh, ya, she lays flat out too, I've thought she was dead a few times also, lol! And a few times I threatened her death...like Saturday morning when I stood in Tango's stall door way so she wouldn't race across the cement aisle and slip. Not only did she race, slip, and slide, she would have gladly plowed me over if I hadn't jumped out of the way!! I thought after that a few more legs would be swelled and hurting.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 4:41 pm: Well I guess I'll come full circle and put laminitis back up to the top of the list, this afternoon the paddock hard ground is making her walk short and her turns don't look very good..much improvement on soft ground. I can detect a DP in both fronts... no heat. Wonder if since she was out for an hour on grass it tipped the scale again, this mare has NEVER had a problem with laminitis in her 31 years... Cushings??? Her BCS is a 5. I started her on pergolide a few weeks ago, she is getting.75 mg's wonder if I should up it??? Dr.O. any opinion?? Thanks
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 7:34 am: Guess who popped a gravel last night LF. I do not think it is completely drained tho, will poultice it... her lameness (head bob) is much improved.. must have been why she seemed sorer yesterday it was getting ready to "pop" DP's are gone again. It seems it was by her heel it popped off to the side of her coronet. I hope this is the end of this!!!!!
Member: canter	Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 10:25 am: That's good news, Diane. I hope it drains completely and Flash is back to her old self in no time.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 5:13 pm: Hooray! Very happy for this news and hope that it clears completely for Flash. The one that Buddy had recently that popped out at the coronet waxed and waned a bit along the way and was tender and draining when my farrier filed his toe and hit where the abscess originated. Sometimes when they close up really fast this can happen, I guess, so good to keep on top of them.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 5:24 pm: Thanks it is a relief, I left her in the dry lot with the boys today and her limp appears to be gone!!! She is an old conniving mare tho, so I won't be convinced until she stays "sound" for a few days.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 7:17 pm: I knew she would do something to make me question her soundness. She did the run away from me thing tonight again... gallop, canter, trot, tight circles, straight lines.. looked good for her. I DID check her DP's before I turned her out in the dry lot and didn't detect anything abnormal. After I put her back in her pen I fed supper..15 mins at least had passed, I checked her pulses again and goodness They were pounding worse than I have ever felt Hanks do. REALLY bounding. Dr.O. would running away from me raise her pulse so much ...wasn't really faster, just bounding very high???? She did still seem to be walking without a head bob, but she was in her pen with soft bedding. I will go out and check them again in an hour or so and see if they are gone...
Member: canter	Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 7:18 am: Just curious, Diane: what did you find after you checked the DPs the second time? The first thing that popped into my mind was that after excercising, it is always easier for me to find my own pulse in my wrist or at my neck than when I'm sitting in a chair sipping a cocktail ...whether or not that's also true for horses, I don't know. I hope she's fine this morning.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 8:00 am: Fran after an hour they were about the same KA BOOM. This morning they are gone I wonder if I shouldn't turn her out, she wasn't on grass, just in the dry lot..there is very slim pickins in there. She isn't in the best shape that's for sure so maybe her galavanting could keep her pulse raised...seems odd tho, because resp. was normal. She seems to be moving her "normal" way this morning, she didn't move much tho because it was breakfast and the pen isn't all that big. NO bounding pulses this morning and she is fully weighting her LF heel. I'm not 100% convinced she is over this, will hand walk her when I get home to see how she looks.
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 10:24 pm: sigh... so this mystery lameness continues. I put boots one her again yesterday to see how she moved and she was much improved. I took the right one off and she started walking away and looked pretty good, so I am pretty sure it is LF, but maybe both. She turns circles very well, stands square with no weight shifting. Today I left her out in the dry lot by her self and her walk looked good. Then the boys exploded on the other side of the fence and she took off trotting and cantering, definitely could see it at the trot today... but the walk was good. Decided maybe I should scrutinize her hooves a little closer again, Her bars are quite overgrown, and her heels high. I took the bars down, beveled all around, took a bit off the heels and brought them back a bit, and she actually walked off better! Her toe is really trying to run forward. She has absolutely NO flares unlike the geldings, her WL is nice and tight, and there is not a line in her hoof wall anywhere. I believe her pain is in the heel, she toe walks. I am going to get pics tomorrow and see if Dr.O. or someone can help me with her hooves. I really would like to get to the bottom of this. I believe it is her hooves, but not laminitis at least from the presentation..she does still have thumping DP's off and on... no heat in hooves that I can detect. She is bright, feisty, good appetite, moves around all day in her pen, and seems happy except about lock up. She willingly picked up LF, but was a little more hesitant with RF... I had to talk her into it.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 7:40 am: No DP's this morning and moving well in her pen. Could overgrown bars and a long toe cause DP's and lameness? She has a weird hoof now that I have looked at it closely, I guess the farrier doesn't do her well either. Her hoof looks nice and compact, but if you look at the solar view it appears she has quite the long toe and her heel is forward. I guess I really need to get pics and study them. I did get my big girls rasp
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 9:18 am: Yes, I'd say definitely long bars can cause lameness. Any slight deviation can cause the elevated DP's I think, and lameness. Consider a small pebble in your shoe; you might adjust your walking a bit. A bigger stone, a bigger limp or more swelling. I think an overgrown bar would act like a pebble or stone in your shoe. A couple of days ago, I noticed Cody seemed off on a front leg. He does paddle in both legs, but his RF seemed worse, and he had a bit of a "gimpiness" going. AND I thought his DP was more in the leg also. Upon close inspection I found one side of his hoof just a tad higher at the quarters on one side. On our rock hard ground, it bothered him. A few swipes of the rasp, eye balled it again, and he was fine after. Some horses are just more sensitive to things regarding their hoofs, others don't show anything for a long time but a problem may be brewing. Pictures!!
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 6:21 pm: YIKES what a mess Here are some pics, the AP and lateral aren't the best, but look at that hair line. This is the leg with the bowed tendon, her fetlock is somewhat DrOpped on that one. She does not want to weight the outside of that hoof. Look at that bar...could that be the problem???? Yesterday I cut a bunch off of it my knife is dull, or her bar is hard so got more to go..A LOT more. Dr.O. In your opinion could this be making her lame?
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 6:23 pm: Cripes Hanks hoof has less toe then Flash.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 7:33 pm: Pictures are worth 1000 words aren't they After studying her pics, went out and relieved her quarters, evened up the heel, lowered the heel a tiny bit(think I have to do that slowly with her) beveled again and she is moving much better, still not her "normal" way of going, but VERY close. Her pulses have been gone all day Her fetlock even looked much less DrOpped! Guess I will start doing all my horses, the big girls rasp does make it easier, and everyone of my horses hooves are a mess. Pretty scary when Hanks look better than the other 2. Will see what she looks like tomorrow, if she is back to her "normal" self I guess that bar would have been the problem??? OR she is playing game with me! OH and that bar is gone!!!
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 7:57 pm: Diane, I see a couple of areas of concern. The bar and the wall on the right side of the picture and also where the point of the heel is because of all that extra stuff. If you could rasp just that side and leave the other side of the foot alone, I think the frog would straighten out. That frog tells me she's too high on that side. and yes, way too much toe, but that's going to take a while to get backed up to where it should be. I do believe she could be sore from just this as it looks like she's been walking on a chunk of wood (bar) for a while. But, I also think it could be a reaction from her being sore from the abscess. Hmmm, was Flash sore before the trimmer came out the last time? I think I read somewhere( maybe in the discussion on cleantrax) that infections can be transferred from uncleaned farrier tools. I am not sure I want to go that far, but if she had a tiny hole in her foot, it wouldn't take much to get an abscess started. Rachelle
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 7:59 pm: We must have cross posted, but you did what I was talking about. So glad Flash seems better.
Member: juliem	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 8:19 pm: I recently bought Gene Ovenic's DVD on natural balance trimming--not the shoeing one--. I've only watched part (most) of the first one of two and I am so impressed. It's pretty in depth at first in sort of a lecture format, then he makes it very clear and simple when he does the actual trimming. I ended up calling to order as I couldn't find the DVD's on the product sales site, but the phone was answered by a PERSON who knew exactly what I wanted. I give it two thumbs up! And it was relatively inexpensive (as compared to the PR series for example). I think less than $40.00 as I recall. One farrier visit for one trim around here! It really answered some questions for me, especially regarding the heels, bars and how important it is to find the widest part of the foot and map out your trim using guidelines which he marks with a marker for us visual learners!
Member: juliem	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 8:20 pm: Diane, did your farrier trim this mare...and if so, how long ago? I imagine you know where I'm heading with this question!
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 9:39 pm: She was a little sore before the farrier came, a little worse after the trim. That bar is on the outside and that is where she doesn't/didn't want to weight her heel. I took her for a hand walk on the pavement after I worked on her hooves and she moved very good at the walk, I could still see ( I think) a tiny tiny head bob at the trot. She willingly trotted. She didn't toe walk as she has been...a good sign. I was considering rockering her toes a bit to help with break over... would that be a good idea? Her toe is actually pretty "short" I don't know about her abscess, I looked and looked for a slit at her coronary band and can't find anything, and I haven't seen anymore drainage, it sure looked like "gunky" stuff dripping down from the coronary band, but now I'm not so sure if anything popped or not! Julie she was trimmed Apr. 16th I think, so 3 weeks out of trim. I will look into that video, I could maybe afford that. I hope this is her problem, the trim did seem to help her, it rained today and that hard bar had softened up so was able to take it WAY down. She sure is feeling good otherwise! Lot of pent up energy.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Friday, May 7, 2010 - 11:08 pm: Not to interrupt your discussion Diane but: Julie, by marking the hoof do you mean he divides it and uses a black marker? I thought I saw that on TV a long time ago, before I was interested in trimming. Would you add more of what he shows after you watch the 2nd? I don't regret buying PR's DVD's; yet it's sooo in depth that sometimes I want to find an answer to something and have no clue which DVD to watch! Diane, Glad she's doing better!
Member: juliem	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 12:19 am: Yes Angie, he uses a black marker. I don't mean to imply this is nearly as comprehensive as PR's DVDs, but it's sure well done and the actual trimming is well photographed and explained as each step is performed. When I finish watching (so much to do in the spring), I'll do a product review, but I'm pretty impressed. I know I'd never take the time to watch several hours of DVDs, even though I'm sure that's a better way to go. I'm fortunate to have excellent barefoot farriers around here and last month I felt the need for a "lesson", so I had them come trim my three yearlings. I figure the trimming is free, what I'm really paying for is the "lesson." I have trimmed all of mine for several years, but questions still come up. The two I had come, work together and they drew on the feet for me, showed me pictures, pointed out things I would have missed, etc. I told them up front I was really wanting to pick their brains and they came prepared with books, pictures, etc. How cool is that?
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 7:32 am: Julie is this the one you got? https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/%22Natural-Balance-Hoof-Trimming% 22-DVD-Set.html
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 8:43 am: still limping a little NO DP's or heat in hooves or tendon. Is weighting her heel now and her fetlock looks almost normal. It is amazing what changing a trim can do... I am going to rocker her toe a bit today and see if that makes a difference. I will take a pic of her fetlock to show the difference, and her hoof of course
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 9:32 am: Thanks Julie. I may need to start a discussion on hoof questions in general. Many were going through my mind before I fell asleep last night, and if I can remember them...;-). PR's DVD's are very thorough no doubt. But not everyone wants THAT much information, or to spend that much. And if you have trimmers willing to help hands on, even better. Lucky you!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 9:50 am: Angie you should do that. I have many questions also, but they are kind of weird...so maybe you will ask them
Member: juliem	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 12:19 pm: Diane, here is the page: https://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/educateprod.html I couldn't find this product on their page that it directs you to, so I called 719-372-7463 to order. It's on the page I link to here for $35.00. Maybe they've redone it and I got a close-out?? Anyway, it's worth the phone call to because it's on the regular products page for $50.00.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 12:58 pm: Thanks Julie, I did see that one for $35 is that the same as the $50 one?? I may send for that at least I can afford that
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 12:59 pm: O.k. Diane, I'm off to get a discussion started on more hoof trimming questions. You are welcome to add yours! Julie, thanks for the link, I found that last night and was going to ask you if that was the one...$35.00 is better than $50.00!
Member: juliem	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 1:46 pm: Diane, I don't know if they're the same. If you call or email, I bet they would answer that. I watched a bit of the 2nd DVD and a trimmer addresses trimming a horse in a wet enviornment and his sole callus looked a bit like Hank's blob, I don't remember where (which volume!) the picture of Hank's blob is. We should move this post to Angie's new thread I guess, since it's more topical there.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 8, 2010 - 5:08 pm: Thanks Julie, I will be looking into getting the DVD's hopefully I can comprehend. I have a hard time getting things through my head sometimes! Glad you guys kept pounding it in!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 7:25 am: Yesterday I was working on Flashes hoof, moved her to a different location and her limp was worse, I wondered what I had done to make it worse, all I had done was bevel her wall a little, so decided not to do anymore and clean the lean-to. Mucking out can provide great time for free thoughts and then it occurred to me, I had basically done a flex test on that leg. I had held it up in a bent position for a few minutes and wasn't comfortable where I was and tried to move her, her limp was remarkably worse, when I walked her off, got better after about 5 mins. So I don't think it is all about her hooves tho they do need work and I and going to "keep after them" she doesn't have pulses anymore, nothing out of the ordinary anyway. Bute does help a little bit, Where does this "flex test" point to as far as the limp, while I have seen many done, I don't exactly know what they mean, I do believe hers means something and it points to fetlock or maybe knee or maybe her bowed tendon??? I couldn't see any swelling or feel any heat in that leg. She still doesn't want to weight that heel all the time, and she does move much like when she bowed her tendon. Somedays it does look a little swollen, but I can't pin point even a spot of heat. Dr. O. I know anything is possible, but if her bowed tendon was reinjured enough to make her limp (slightly) would there be heat in the tendon that I could feel??? This is where there is some "swelling" it is puffy but no heat. What is located there?? This is how she stands, with weight off of heel. Any ideas at all????
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 9:18 am: No, not necessarily Diane. DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 9:39 am: Diane, Just some observations about bowed tendons. They are insidious, meaning that they can look perfectly fine, no heat, no soreness on palpation and looking at them you wouldn't believe that there was anything wrong with the leg. However, upon ultrasound, significant tears are very apparent. That said, I had a mare who was diagnosed with @ 75% tear in her tendon. I spent 8 months getting her back to the races. On the way back ( about 4 months into the rehab), I had the vet do an ultrasound of the suspensory on the same leg at the same time he was doing a follow up on the bow which appeared to be healing nicely. That part of the leg seemed to be giving me more of a problem then the tendon. Sure enough, that turned out to be more of a major problem then the bow was. I mention this because Flash's leg looks a lot like my mares leg, had I not ultra sounded a not so obvious area on a gut feeling( and this particular area is very difficult to ultrasound), I would have never found the problem. This also might explain why she is not wanting to weight her heel, and also explain her DrOpped fetlock, and the fact that she walked stiff after you had her leg up in the air flexed for a period of time and also why she warmed up out if it. Not weighting her heel relieves the pressure that she would have from needing to stretch the ligament down to the ground. And the weird way her hoof is growing could give you an indication that the hoof is remodeling to unweight the sorest side. Just my take on it. If horses compensate in other areas of their bodies for things going wrong, why not their feet too, they are pretty amazing creatures after all. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 10:42 am: OK well then this is all starting to make some sort of sense FINALLY. She was probably worse after the farrier because of getting trimmed, holding her leg bent, stretching it for the hoof stand Sigh... He lowered her heel a little, stretching the tendon even more. Her not having any heat in that tendon was the thing keeping me from believing that was the problem. I'm glad I've kept her penned up for the most part, but those couple times she went nuts probably didn't help anything. I bet she reinjured it when Bonesy was introduced. I did keep her in when I put Bonesy out with the boys for a couple days, and after they seemed to work it out added her to the equation. I'm sure being a mare she had to do some bossing, when I wasn't watching. SOO I guess rest and anti-inflammatories are called for. The "puffiness" is going down in the area I circled, and she does seem a LITTLE better. Strange no heat has never been present... that I could feel anyway, and I will admit I am not the best at detecting subtle heat in tendons. When I had the vet look at her I had her leg poulticed and he asked me why, I said I suspected her bowed tendon, he felt it for a half of a second and said NO it was laminitis. I wish I would have stayed with my gut on this one. I even had the farrier feel her tendon for heat before he trimmed her he said he didn't feel any, and if it was her tendon it would be HOT. Live and learn Guess the yard pen will be going back up...sigh.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 8:09 am: Yesterday I built a SMALL, FLAT pen in the backyard for Flash, let her out for an hour to graze she was very calm and didn't do anything stupid. When I put her back she was limping worse and her DP's were really thumping. I thought maybe I have been wrong, maybe she does have a strange presentation laminitis. This morning her limp was gone and so were her DP's she looked better than she has for a month or so. I fed the horses their alfalfa pellets, I hang Bonesy's on Flashes paddock fence.. feed the other 3 in the lean-to. Flash came out of the lean when done (walking very nicely! For her) she walked by Bonesy and he lunged at her with his ears back... he was on the outside of the fence. Flash jumped sideways, twisting her leg and started limping again, tho not as bad as she has been. It must be her bowed tendon, her hooves seemed fine, why she has those thumping DP's once in awhile I am not sure, but they do seem to coincide with very warm weather. Guess I better find a different spot to feed Bonesy... new horse intro is such a pain in the arse. Don't think I will ever be able to turn Flash out with him.
Member: lilo	Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 9:49 am: Sorry to hear about Flash and Bonesy not getting along. Hoping Flash will get better with the new arrangement (without the gelding on the other side of the fence). Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 8:11 am: Had 3 days without a limp, THEN yesterday we had severe storms blow in and that goofy arab was out standing in the rain shivering to death, so decided to put him in Flashes side and her in with the boys (in the paddock/lean to area) hoping Bonesy would stay in the lean-to, though from my observations I didn't THINK Hank and Sam were keeping him out. This morning, Bonesy was still wet and shivering so obviously it isn't my horses keeping him out and worse Flash was limping again!!!! I can now feel some heat in the spot I circled above, so I guess it is her bowed tendon acting up, she is back in her own pen and Bonesy is going to have to take care of himself. This cool rain weather is about over now anyway... I'm very discouraged now with Flash.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:05 pm: Sorry to hear this, Diane. I'll be hoping that you'll have an abscess pop at some point in time instead. If you thought you had one earlier but it closed up too fast it might still be active?
Member: lilo	Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 1:14 pm: So sorry, Diane. This weather is messing with us this spring in Colorado too - woke up to snow yesterday and today. Not very much snow, luckily, and the outlook for the weekend is good. It does seem as if winter just does not want to give up ... Hope Flash improves quickly, Lilo
Member: stek	Posted on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:57 am: That stinks Diane, hope Flash hasn't managed to re-injure herself. My arab doesn't have sense enough to come in out of the rain either, when it's wet I have to put a sheet on him or he stands around soaked and shivering.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 8:43 pm: I don't know what to think of Flash, sometimes it appears to be her hooves sometimes not, sometimes she looks bad, sometimes she looks "normal" for her. I don't have money for expensive diagnostics, and they aren't available here anyway. Yesterday she looked good today she looks lame in every leg. Yesterday no pulses, today kabooming pulses. No change in routine or feed. She doesn't lie down more than normal, she seems happy and alert, with good appetite, gets up and down well. her tail tone even returned. Maybe it is time to consider it may be her time. I would have the vet out if I thought he was capable of pinpointing her problem, but I don't think he is, maybe it isn't even possible and it is a accumulation of things. When she walks on soft ground she looks much better, I think my next step will be hoof testers, tho I'm not real good with them. I feel bad for the old girl and don't like seeing her in pain, tho at this point it doesn't SEEM horrible.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 8:42 am: Well I guess you guys get to listen to me try to work through this, I am determined to figure this out. How bout this new thought..compensation lameness in front because of the rear end. Unfortunately Flash can not hold up her back legs for cleaning her hooves. I had a thread in here a few years ago about it. It is NOT behavioral. She just can't. Once in awhile when she has her hoof cocked I get them cleaned out and she LOVES it, almost like they itch, she makes camel lips I also walk her on the pavement to get the gunk to fall out. They are gross when I do get them cleaned out, she hasn't been trimmed for probably 3 years in back 2 anyway.. I have managed to bring her toes back a bit by digging a hole in front of her toe and rasping it, that has helped her toe, but underneath does need some work. The bars are really overgrown and full of thrush. The thing that makes me wonder if this isn't her RT. rear causing LF lameness is I see her raise it up and hold it in the air like it hurts. I noticed this morning she doesn't want to weight the RT. REAR. and help it up again, put it down twice. When she put it down she put it forward, and pointing to the side, barely weighting it. I guess my job now is to figure if it is RT. rear making LF sore OR LF making RT. rear sore. Any ideas how to determine this???? Her RT. rear doesn't have heat in the hoof, it does have a KA booming DP when the rest of them do. Her fetlocks in back do have some edema and she doesn't like me touching them. Her hooves in back really need a good trim. I have been working on trying to train her to hold them low so I can clean them, with the goal of getting them trimmed, if she picks her legs up high she shivers and can't do it. It is hard to do by myself, have another horse arriving here HOPEFULLY in June, a horse friend is going to be keeping her horse here for awhile,(another goofy arab...sigh) and I am hoping she can give me a hand training her.
Member: cheryl	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 9:26 am: Diane I had a farrier who trimmed my 30 yo TB mare's hind feet by resting them on the toe of his boot. It was rough work for him but made it possible to keep Lady's back feet in good shape. Have you tried resting her back foot on a block of styrofoam? Might work - - -
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 9:44 am: O.k., typed a response and hit the refresh instead of spell check!! I'll try this again. I was suggesting trying some massage work on her and maybe that would help. My oldest mare has trouble holding her hind feet up on the hoof stand, but massage before helps. Remember everything is connected so I don't just massage her legs or hips, I start at her poll and and go along her neck, and then her back, working down her legs then. I follow "Equine Massage for Performance Horses" by Jim Masterson. I've never did a WHOLE massage but the small amount I do (just haven't learned the rest of it) sure seems to make a HUGE difference in every horse, for many different reasons. And, I think many times while you do something like that, the horse "tells" you what is wrong if you quiet your mind. No Twilight Zone music is playing, honest! I think you need to take of her hoofs first and work your way up. Switching from one hoof to another also helps, instead of trying to just get one done. Good luck. What next, huh??
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 9:49 am: Cheryl's response reminded me of something. When Tango was hurting in his fronts last summer, the only way I could lift up one hoof was if the other one was standing on something soft. So soft sand or foam under her might help. Or what if she was allowed to lean on a wall? Or put a hay bale under her, or 2, and see if she will let some of her weight on the bale. Without eating it of course! It's amazing to me once a horse knows you are trying to help what they allow us to do. It takes time, but once they get it, they are good from then on.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 11:05 am: Thanks I have tried about everything, the hoof on the boot seems kind of dangerous hope he had steel toed boots! I will give your ideas a try today, plus some more. I have tried just about everything...including massage (whether I did it right is another story) The problem with her back legs if I ask her to pick them up they immediately go to her belly and start shivering, then they get stuck and she about falls over.. I want to teach her she doesn't have to pick them up that high, she can keep them low. Should be interesting to say the leastand I definitely have doubts. I have tried bute or banamine didn't make a difference.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 12:13 pm: HMMMM well I have noticed when I feed Flash if I put her hangover feeder higher on the fence she seems to weight her rears less and her fronts more...to reach the feeder (kind of like tippy toeing to reach higher.) So I put her on a downhill slant (rears downhill) bucket(full of watered alfalfa pellets) up high for the tippy toeing effect and I was able to get her RT. rear cleaned well!!! once I got her to cock it(toe on ground), she kept it like that until I was done I was also able to rasp the bottom and use my knife a bit.. real fun for a novice laying on her back trimming a hoof. I just prayed she wouldn't move and step on me!!! and she didn't!!! Her bars are VERY laid over and high, when I rasped the bottom flat I took bar before hoof wall Her frog is VERY thrushy too. I just couldn't get it with my hoof knife well in the position I was in, but did get some of the thrushy stuff removed, I also squared of her toe a bit, her toes are getting long and it isn't helping her breakover any. A GOOD start on RT. rear Left REAR...UGGGH. I worked hard to get her to cock that in the position so I could clean it and that girl tried her hardest to do it for me, I got it cleaned a LITTLE, she doesn't want to weight the RT. rear totally to do the Left. Telling huh??? Her Left rear has the same problems but not quite as bad, and isn't as long in the toe. I did get that one squared off too. She did walk off better. I left in her the dry lot for her daily roll and up and down was pretty good. rolled on both sides. I think with this method I may be able to get her hooves trimmed...with time and PATIENCE! Still on soft ground she looks pretty normal, on hard ground a bit gimpy... but did look better after my attempted trimming. Now to learn ho to trim hooves lying on my back .... I have a hard enough time right side up!!! I'd like to get those bars and in shape somehow and a nippers would be the fastest easiest way.. but mine are too big for the area I have to work in. They are soft right now, would hurt anything to kind of rip them with a pliars????
Member: sunny66	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 12:30 pm: Ok, I might finally have something to contribute to your dilemma... This is what I did with Brave to teach him he didn't have to lift his foot high. He too would bring his leg way up to his belly and hop about. Something about the hiking of his leg really worried him or hurt him, I don't know which. First when his hoof is cocked, I went to clean it. As soon as he even appeared to want to lift I stood up. Granted he was taught that when I bend down he lifts his foot, so it took a while. Anyway, eventually he would let me pick at it while cocked and not lift it. Did that for a week every day. I had to crouch down though, not bend down and that seemed to be the trick with him. Then I went to do more to the hoof while cocked. He would lift it just off the ground for me then I would do a little something to it then stand up and he'd put it down, we did this for three days. Then a lightbulb went off and he would let me hold his hoof 1 inch off the ground, then 2 inches, I stopped at 3 inches. Even now I don't lift his foot higher than 6 or 7 inches off the ground. Farrier is doing the same. I agree with Angie's suggestions and that when the horse feels you are truly trying to help, they cooperate. I spoke with a barefooter and she responded to my questions about corns. She said absolutely they could cause significant pain that would constitute compensation in the diagonal limb. She said they are very painful. If Flash's hind soles are a mess, it may help her if you can get to those hind feet. Also, if you tried one or two doses of bute it may not be enough. Brave at one point needed it in his system consistently for it to work... like a week. As he got better I was able to not give it so much, now he can get done without it at all as long as his legs aren't hiked. Good luck Diane.
Member: sunny66	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 12:33 pm: LOL, there see, I didn't have anything to contribute, you figured it out yourself! lol I would not rip the bars with pliers. One barefooter suggested a battery operated dremel to take down the bars. No yanking on the hooves and you are able to get the bars down without risking anything. Good for you!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 1:17 pm: A dremel is a good idea, tho laying under her working with power tolos doesn't thrill me too much. I am going to look at the hardware store tomorrow I bet there is some kind of small tool I could use to nip them off, matter of fact I can picture it, but not sure what it is called!! I have been thinking of Brave as I go though this Aileen it seems their problems are similar. I think with a little patience the RR will be able to be done. The left rear is iffy, but I will try my hardest!! I am very glad the people on here gave me the bravery and knowledge to trim hooves or this wouldn't be possible. I took her for a walk up on the pavement and she really did move better, not dragging her hind feet. I tell ya the things I do for this girl!! I will try some bute for a couple days and see if it helps me out with the Left rear... it didn't before, but maybe with the feed bucket trick it will. Thanks
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 1:25 pm: OH Aileen I just noticed you said a BATTERY operated dremel.. HMMMMM didn't know there was such a thing... will look tomorrow THANKS!!!
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 1:35 pm: Good luck, Diane. It sounds like you are making improvements with Flash's rear feet though it is rough going.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 1:39 pm: Thanks Vicki OMG I googled battery operated dremel, that is the PERFECT solution Thanks again Aileen... see you never know what you might contribute, so don't be so shy
Member: juliem	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 2:30 pm: Diane, I once trimmed a filly while she was lying down! I went to get her and she was having her regularly scheduled nap, so I just sort of squattd down and did it. She was only just learning about having her feet trimmed and I figured it'd wouldn't be that much harder on me at that point to trim her while she was down. Some horses won't let you near them when they're down, but mine all get over that.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 2:57 pm: Julie, Flash would let me trim her while she was napping, I never see her lay down tho, she must sleep in the wee hours of the night. She is full of shavings in the morning. Don't think I didn't think about jumping on her when she went down for her roll!!! I didn't tho, because I figured laying down wasn't her goal, and she probably wouldn't have cooperated.
Member: sunny66	Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 3:48 pm: Oh good I'm getting a dremel too His feet get so hard! Then I don't have to use a knife... lol
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 7:30 am: Things are not going well for Flash, She seems to be getting worse instead of better. I would never deny any of my horses vet care, but I know the vet will come out and give her banamine and leave me with no diagnosis. I can't figure it out either. I have to make an educated guess that it is her bowed tendon. She still doesn't want to weight her heel, I can find some mild heat, little puffinees right above her fetlock occasionally. Nothing like when she first bowed her tendon last year, she is actually much lamer at this point then she was when she originally injured it. I have not been messing with her hooves, don't want to make her worse. I have her confined to a very small pen. I took a video of her walking the beginning of May and watched it today, she is MUCH worse now. I Don't know what to do at this point other than hope an abscess pops. I have been hosing, pouliticing, wrapping her fronts legs. Bute everyday, which doesn't seem to help her much. I feel very bad for her. Her fetlock is not DrOpped as it was when she bowed last year. She has remained bright, alert, good appetite, but I have a sinking feeling this may be it for my poor old girl. I did call the vet and tell him what was going on, he insists it is her sway back causing this, or founder. She does not palpate sore in her back, I do believe she may be footsore from her weight bearing differently and looks quite compromised all around. I don't think it is founder tho, she started this over 6 weeks ago and there is no founder lines in her hooves. She has been on pergolide for as long and no grass. She DOES move better on soft ground?? I never noticed that when she bowed her tendon last year and it does confuse the heck out of me. Do horses with tendon injuries normally move better on soft ground??????? If anyone has any suggestions to try something I'm all ears. I really need to try to help her, but am at a loss what to try, and am starting to think the worst. Thanks
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 8:29 am: Diane, I am sorry to see she's not getting better. It sounds like you are doing all you can for supportive care. The only things I can think is time with confinement with limited hand walking like any other lameness issues. And if it were me, I'd take her bars down, they seem pretty high/long to me in the picture above. I'd be looking at hoofs for bars, and signs of levelness without taking any height off the wall at this point, nor changing heel height or angles. I don't know if any of those factors are causing the initial lameness/swelling, but might help with over all comfort? Poor Flash. Poor (((Diane))). Hope she gets better.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 8:59 am: Thanks Angie, I did take her bars down after that picture and they look good now. I have been considering raising her heel a bit with some sort of padding on the LF (the one she doesn't weight all the time. I wonder if that would help with her comfort level, just haven't come up with what to use. I have some construction grade styrofoam here, I wonder if that would be a good choice, guess it may be worth a try as long as it doesn't make things worse. 2 whole months with no injuries or founder was awful nice, and I told her so yesterday. I looked back through the time frame and I believe she probably did something to herself when Bonesy was introduced, remember my WHY thread....sigh. Good deeds never go unpunished...I'll never learn.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 9:33 am: Diane we deal with the treatment of undiagnosed lameness at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse. DrO
Member: lilo	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 10:16 am: So sorry to hear about the troubles you are having with Flash. Best of luck, she is a tough horse, maybe it will resolve with time and your care. Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 10:35 am: Thanks, Dr.O. I read through the article. There is no diagnosis at this point, I just can't bring myself to have the vet out, I KNOW what he will say and do. I do have her confined to what would amount to a 24x 12 stall, she stays quiet for the most part (for now). I'm not sure if hoof testers would tell me anything, but will try them later. She really has no unusual swelling or heat anywhere, once in awhile she has some in her fetlock area. Visible in this pic taken 5/7.... it comes and goes.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 10:51 am: Diane, I am sorry to hear of the troubles you are having with Flash. I have several observations. 1. The fact that she does not seem any better on bute, makes me think this is a foot thing that may be compromising the tendon. 2. Soft ground is not good for tendons, but it is good for feet. Soft ground makes the tendons have to work harder, that said, I'm not sure what your "soft" ground is made up of. 3. Since you thought that she got better after her foot popped a gravel a few weeks ago. This could be a case where the pressure has rebuilt up again and the abscess needs to be relieved. Now, here is my suggestion and since you live on a cow farm this should be no problem for you to do, in fact its perfect. Put a fresh, warm cow manure poultice on both her front feet and leave it on for 24 hours. Remove and replace after 24 hours if there is no difference and see what happens. Not sure why this works, may have something to do with the heat drawing the abscess, but I have personal experience with knowing this works as my husband had a horse that they did all the normal stuff to. As a last result an old time very well known trainer told him to use the cow manure poultice and that did the trick. Best of Luck to you and Flash. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 12:19 pm: Ok maybe this is the problem???? Would love input. I took the hoof testers to her hoof no reaction anywhere (that soft ground does screw me up tho) the soft ground is more level though and the hard ground is at a bit of a downhill slant, walking UP on the hard ground she looks better also. I also added some padding to her heel to see if it would help, I wasn't impressed with my padding job so removed it. I then cold hosed her leg, I have noticed her having some wrinkled hair near her fetlock, and didn't closely examine it, she had her winter hair yet and just looking at it, it looked like ruffled hair from lying down. So after cold hosing I took a closer look and it would appear she has an owie there. It is above where I saw the drainage on her hoof before Closer examination would show it looks like it may be or was infected. There is a hard lump above it and she does NOT like me touching it. Pics Could this be making her so darn lame somedays??? I wonder if she has some sort of infection in the joint, it almost looks like a puncture wound with a scratch. I think her hooves look OK, the heel is a bit high, but I don't want to mess with it right now.(wish Hanks and Sams looked that good from the lateral, and I DID lay on the ground for these pics. Red Line = owie Blue line = hard swelling Her bowed tendon looks like it always has, with no heat or swelling (that's not been there) Appetite is still very good and she is still quite a character
Member: frances	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 12:40 pm: Bless her cotton socks! She looks highly huggable! I have no useful input, but it does sound like good news that her lameness could be attributable to some sort of trauma (though of course a joint infection would be less welcome news). GOOD LUCK!
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 2:16 pm: Rachelle I forgot, that cow pattie poultice sounds quite gross. Wish I could market some for that purpose! Wonder why horse poop wouldn't work? maybe cuz' it isn't as "sloppy" interesting idea that makes sense in a weird sort of way, just hope I don't have to resort to it and figuring out how to treat this "owie" fixes her up...tho I am not confident this is the problem, when I look back at her pics this ruffled hair started about when her lameness did, off to read wound articles
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 4:11 pm: One would think this could cause discomfort based on the description. Hope it all comes right for Flash.
Member: mrose	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 5:15 pm: I'd think it could cause pain upon flexion of the joint, and maybe even on pressure from walking. A drawing poultice I've had good luck with, not quite a messy and smelly as a cow pattie (new one on me!) is saurkraut. Of course, there is always good old betadine and sugar which works really good. I'd put a wet wrap on her with novasan to soften the scab and open up the wound if you think there might be infection still. Then I'd cold hose her a couple of times a day and reapply the novasan on a dry wrap, unless there is drainage; then I'd use a wet wrap until there is no drainage. Once you think it's healing up, I'd just put novasan on it and keep it clean until it's healed over with now swelling. The hosing 2x/day and covering with novasan might also work. Our climate is so dry that if we want to keep something soft, we have to put a wet wrap on it usually. If there is a puncture wound I've had really good luck using that antibiotic they use on cows with mastitis. You just stick the little needle like end of the tube right into the wound. You might want to put her on antibiotics if there is a possibility of the joint being invloved.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 5:45 pm: Interesting treatment ideas, Sara. I've got a bunch of those cow mastitis things leftover. Maybe they would work on the boil-like holes that my Lance gets from the black horsefly bites or the angry sores from the ant bites.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 6:43 pm: The "puncture" is still open, there is no scab, unless it came off with the cold hosing. Good ideas..Thanks! I've used the mastitis stuff with great success with small wounds, completely forgot about it. I have heard of saurkraut as a poultice but never used it..YET! I really hope it is as simple as this "owie" with no joint involvement. I am going to feel for heat there tonight, I had just cold hosed it when I found it, so didn't feel that would tell me anything. I don't even know what I was cold hosing LOL... just one of those last ditch efforts of try everything and anything. She looked better today after I lightly scrubbed it with betadine and cleaned it out, tonight I will put some vet wrap with antibiotic ointment on it, that's all I have right now.. I Know she hates me touching it so it must be sore...I HOPE VERY MUCH this is it!!! Thanks
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 7:54 pm: Here's hoping Flash, under your competent care, will soon be past this problem.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 8:03 pm: Well, Well there is heat involved in it, right where the swelling is above it. Shouldn't the swelling be below it?????? I didn't have anything other than Corona to put on it and wrapped it with vet wrap, then fretted about having it too tight, but it isn't...I don't think, she seemed comfortable. I could get my finger in there. Here's hoping this is it, wonder if she should have antibiotics??? All I have here is SMZ's
Member: vickiann	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 2:43 pm: Hard lump, heat, tenderness (doesn't like it touched). It might clear up without antibiotics but it is also possible that there is a foreign object in there. I know that I don't have to tell you to watch this closely for any signs of worsening and for cellulitis. My impression would be that it needs to be scrubbed, hosed and doctored well a couple of times daily plus perhaps antibiotics too. And if it doesn't clear, may need to be opened up by the Vet.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 5:28 pm: She is doing a little better today. She is like that tho, one day she will look almost normal, the next very sore, with no changes in routine. Today is rest from bute day, I can't keep her on it long or she gets diarrhea and quits eating. The sooner I get her off it the happier I am. So with no bute for 24 hrs. she looked pretty good. She has quite a bit going on with her and I am sure compensation lameness is a big part of the problem right now. I did see her roll today, she managed to roll back and forth on both sides a couple times and got up pretty good. I guess I'll let her enjoy the summer in the backyard again, and then go from there.
Member: mrose	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 5:38 pm: Diane, you understand the REAL problem is that you've been paying too much attention to your other horses! You know how these old mares are. I hope she continues to improve.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 5:40 pm: Diane, Got any Icathamol? If you do have splinter in there the Icathamol would draw it out. I'd do what you are doing but I think I would use a hot compress, put some Icathamol on a gauze pad and then wrap it with vet wrap. This is where, it would have been really good if you knew how to wrap legs, but you would be ok as long as you didn't wrap the vet wrap too tightly and could make sure the gauze pad would stay put. If this is a localized infection from something thats in there, I'm not sure that the antibiotics would do much good. I've always had better luck first getting the foreign object out and then making sure that the area was kept clean and flushed a couple of times a day until it healed. Rachelle
Member: mrose	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 6:22 pm: Icathamol is a gooey messy stuff, but Rachelle is right; it's great for drawing. I forgot about it! DIANE! YOU can't do leg wraps??!! I'm amazed, girl! Imo everyone that has horses should learn to do wraps and bandages. (not scolding; just saying) If you can get a finger between the wrap and the leg, you're wrap isn't too tight. I was taught with vet wrap, to always wrap a cotton bandage or cotton roll under it then you don't have to worry about it getting too tight. You can use masking tape to hold the cotton wrap together and in place, then wrap the vet wrap over it, but leave a little of the cotton sticking out above and below the vet wrap. There are some easy to follow books out and I'd be surprised if Dr. O doen't have directions on this site, but I haven't looked. It's worth the time to practice different wraps. Give hubby a beer and practice on him while he's watching t.v. in the evening!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 8:28 pm: I got do yourself leg wraps when Flash bowed her tendon and they work just fine. She still isn't wanting to weight that heel, I'm pretty sure, well positive now, I have myself a re-bow. Wish I would have followed my gut in the beginning and not listened to my vet, I would have treated her differently if he hadn't said it was founder and her heels breaking down. I had started poulticing and cold hosing it before he came and told me it wasn't that. I'm wondering if that Owie isn't a bed sore? I noticed she now has a hock sore too on the same side. She is deeply bedded but tends to spread it all out and the ground underneath is abrasive. I'm to the point of not wanting to have a vet for anything, he seems to be wrong more than right. Thanks God for HA.. Dr.O are re-bows harder to heal than the original? I suppose it would be. It is cool, a tiny bit swollen, but she seems to be quite lame on it sometimes. I have been treating it as a bowed tendon for the last week or 2.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 8:30 pm: Oh my,Diane! I feel your pain and frustration!
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 9:00 pm: Thanks Vicki, at least she is a better patient this time around. I get very, VERY frustrated with the poor vet and farrier care available around here. Again time is the cure if there is going to be one, She has a small, flat pen in the backyard now and is quite content in there for a few hours a day, now that I have put her on stall rest other than her couple hours grazing she seems to be improving a little. I think she is going to have to live the rest of her life like that, or at least as long as Bonesy is here + a friend is bringing another arab here to board. IF and when she heels from this I may make a separate pasture for her and leave Hank in with her. He LOVES his Mom and would never hurt her.
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 5:27 pm: Mystery lameness continues, I am determined to figure this out. I had a LONG talk with my vet yesterday .... and learned pretty much what I already know. SOOO last night I decided to pull out the pads that made Sam so comfy when he foundered...the garden kneeling pad.. I cleaned her hooves well and in the left front crevice in the frog was a gooey, yucky mess, I had never noticed that before. Took the hoof pick and dug the gunk out, she was not happy with that DrOwned it with the Tomorrow stuff and proceeded to pad and wrap her hooves.. I did a very nice job this time and figured she would walk off better for sure...NOPE. She was actually a little worse Undid my beautiful wrap job and off she walked limping on that darn LF. I had decided in my mind it was her bowed tendon and to treat as that...even tho there has been NO heat or swelling in it. got a cotton ball soaked crevice with Tomorrow AGAIN and packed it. That little wench looks normal today and the black, gooey, gunky stuff is gone and so is the hole that was there BUT even better she has been weighting her heel everytime I look at her today, even down hill slopes don't look bad... a first since whatever this is happened. SOOO whether she is faking better because I pointed out the beautiful hill side she was going to buried in if she didn't quit it, or the darn mare had an abscess perhaps in her frog??? Stay tuned, no doubt she will be limping around tomorrow again. I am going to threaten her with the beautiful hill side a couple times a day, cuz' I swear she understands every word I say. Tonight I am going to wrap that hoof with sugardine, just in case it wasn't my threat, and actually is/was her hoof... she drives me nuts I tell ya
Member: stek	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 5:42 pm: At least they are taking turns Diane .. I'm sure one of the other guys is patiently waiting for her to get all the way better so they can have a problem and get mommied for a while!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 6:06 pm: Diane, I had to laugh at your threats, ha ha! I seem to doing the same thing more and more to my horses AND dogs; I think it's the economy, and stress of trying to keep everyone healthy (family too) and trimmed. The silver lining in the cloud here with Flash is she is teaching you something, making ya think, (and go bald!)and although it's frustrating, I bet she's going to be fine. I was just saying today how Cody really teaches me alot regarding trimming, he can't tolerate ANY little thing being off with his hoofs. I'll spend days thinking he's off, and can't figure it out, then "suddenly" see something, and a little tweak, and "TA DA" he's fine. Weird. 'Nways, hope she heals, whatever it is!! She looks healthy and young in her face, so I don't think it's her time on the hill yet!
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 7:38 pm: Diane, After what she's put you through I sure hope this is it. Has she had any cuts higher up on her leg. I know she had an owie a few weeks ago. I have had horses get a cut I thought was healed and then have the fill( and infection) travel down the leg and out the bottom of the foot usually via a hole in the frog( path of least resistance) They act just a little off( for a long time) until it gets to the foot and then they are noticeably off until the infection clears itself out. The last horse I had this happen to had gotten kicked above the knee, was treated with antibiotics, which worked to an extent, the original would healed up, but I could see it traveling down his leg, first in the knee, then down the tendon into the pastern and then the foot. Once it got to the foot, I also treated with a gauze pad soaked with Tomorrow until I couldn't get the gauze pad in the hole. He was pretty sore for a few days but once that came out of his foot he was ok. So lets hope this is the last of it and Flash will be fine. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 8:04 pm: Let's hope,, but I highly doubt it at this point. I wrapped her hoof with sugardine anyway, guess it can't hurt anything at least. She hasn't had 2 sound days in a row, so tomorrow will tell the tale, tho I won't believe it until I have at least a week straight. Still weighting her heel tonight! I did get her fetlock owie to heal up, her hock sore is getting better. She has had no other owies that I am aware of anyway. For good measure I did show her the spot on the hill tonight again.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 9:11 pm: Good luck, Diane!
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, May 28, 2010 - 7:52 pm: New strategy for the old girl. I have noticed after I take Flash on her hand walks and let her graze in the yard she tends to move better, this morning after nightly lock up she was limping a bit again. I have NO idea at this point what her problem is for SURE, probably a combination of things. SOOO I just spent the afternoon making her a pen, attached to her stall, out in the pasture, where it is mostly flat. It is not huge, but at least she doesn't have to walk circles or stand in one place. She is by herself, yet right next to the boys so she doesn't get lonely and they can't bully her. She has been in there for a couple hours grazing around and looks MUCH better than when she is cooped up, She is also has a nasty hock sore from spreading her bedding all over. She prefers to sleep out on the soft ground so hopefully it will help with this too. I HOPE this works and doesn't make her worse.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:52 am: I do struggle in my mind what to do with Flash, have left her out in the small dry lot pen the last 2 days, she can go out as she wishes. I think she may be worse, definitely not better. I had hubby watch her when I walked her and he said it appeared to be her LF...RR (compensation I'm thinking) At her age I AM dealing with quality of life. I do believe something is going on with that bowed tendon, after I cold hosed it this morning I could see when she lifted that leg I could see something like a knot sliding in there... not normal. My other horses, and her other legs don't have that. SOOO new strategy again as much as I hate to I think this is her last resort, stall lock up with hand walking, I poulticed today and put on her standing wraps, going to nail her with bute as much as she will tolerate, and cross my fingers. Hopefully I will see improvement in a week or 2 or my options are limited, nothing really seems to help her.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 11:59 am: Frustrating, Diane. Sure hope you see improvement.
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 8:41 pm: I have been preoccupying myself with Flash this afternoon, Last time I talked to Sue I told her about Flash and her crazy lameness, and how I didn't know if I could fix her this time because I didn't know for sure what I was dealing with.. She told me to fix her I could do it, so I am going to give it my best efforts. First let me say she is bright eyed, happy, interested, hungry, her demeanor is VERY good. Today I hand walked her and she does seem a little stiff legged in front, more so in the LF the one with the bowed tendon that has had no heat or unusual swelling. She seems way worse on a down hill slope on HARD ground, uphill she look like her hard ground or not. on the flat she looks limpy on LF on HARD ground. On soft ground she looks pretty good, but not 100% her. She still does NOT want to weight that heel on the left front. I feel NO heat and occasional DP in her hooves, sometimes thumping, sometimes just a little there, and sometimes I can't hardly feel them. I hoof tested her (but not well) I got no reactions. My vet doesn't do blocks, so that avenue is out. their US and x-rays just plain suck so hate to get them as poor of quality as they are. Tonight I put Sams easy boot RX's on her with no pads, she showed 90% improvement on all terrain, down hill and on the flat on hard ground. Unfortunately Sam's boots are too big for her (of course) Padding her hooves didn't seem to help, but whenever I put those RX boots on her she seems to improve greatly. The question in my mind is it the boots raising her heels and making her tendon feel better??? OR is there something wrong in the hoof/ hooves????? She is landing toe first and I think that is why she looks good going UP hill. Do tendon injuries look better on soft ground??? I thought not. After I walked her in them I put her back in her stall and she stood all stretched out and looked very comfortable HELP Does anyone HAVE ANY ideas what I can do to figure this out??? or even have the vet do with in his capabilities??? I am debating getting her a pair of those boots that fit, but that still don't tell me what I'm dealing with.
Member: frances	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 3:42 am: Hi Diane, As you've found something (the boots) which bring her 90% improvement in her way of going, and as in every other respect she is fine ("bright-eyed, happy, interested, hungry and with very good demeanour"), it sounds as if she is enjoying good quality of life considering her age. Why not get her the boots in her size and see how it goes? Sometimes it's just not possible to figure out exactly what's going on, especially in your situation with no nerve blocks available and only the poorest quality USs and Xrays, not to mention a vet whose opinions you disagree with anyway. I know you'll still be watching her like a hawk in case new symptoms appear or old ones worsen, and if they do you may have some more clues by then as to what's going on and what action to take.
Member: sunny66	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 8:13 am: Diane, how big are the boots on her? Try putting a breathable diaper on then booting. If it works, you'll have to do the clean out of her feet and putting - I think tomorrow was suggested to me - on her feet then diaper her and boot her. One of the horses here had an abscess but his feet were tiny compared to Braves. We didn't have boots to fit. We put a diaper on then Brave's boot and it worked. Hang in there and know I'm thinking of you... hugs.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 9:10 am: The ONE thing that confuses me is I tried every sort of padding on her hooves from styrofoam to the garden kneeling pad, to the comfort pads, NONE of those made a difference. I tried Sam's Old Macs', Daviess hoof barrier boots.. Nothing. ONLY the easy boot Rx's make her move better. This is what is driving me nuts... it just isn't screaming hoof OR bowed tendon.... with no heat or swelling anywhere. I will wrap her hooves, and if she stays comfy in those boots will get her her own pair, but she can't live in them, I really would like to know what I am dealing with so could treat appropriately, if treatable at all. Think I'll poultice those hooves too, since she'll have wraps on anyway... can't hurt, and do a LITTLE digging with hoof knife to see if there is an abscess track
Member: vickiann	Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 9:52 pm: Hope that this will soon be resolved, Diane.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2010 - 4:17 pm: So we had a little chaos here yesterday, Lock up wasn't proving to make Flash any better either, so decided to let her in the pasture that is split with a hot wire. She went out and rolled, got up and down VERY good. went down the hill slowly to the flat bottom and started grazing.. The killer boys were on the other side of the fence grazing, everything was peaceful and Flash actually looked OK once she got moving...down hill is still not right... but it appeared to be her hocks or something back there more than anything. Came in the house, made supper, looked out the window and there was Hank running crazy, Bonesy had jumped THROUGH NOT OVER the fence to be with her. A small chase entailed, I got out there and put her back in her pen, figuring today she would really be lame... NOPE. She seems to be improving in small increments regardless of what I do... Lock up , pasture, hand walk...don't matter. There was no heat anywhere in any leg so Dunno... anyway she is back out in the pasture for the afternoons, if the crazy boys will behave on the otherside....
Member: vickiann	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2010 - 4:24 pm: Sounds like Flash is benefiting from the movement and this can be a big help with some foot situations as I know you are so well-aware. Not too great though about Bonesy jumping through the fence!
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2010 - 11:00 pm: If only I knew if it was a foot issue. We went to Sue's services tonight so she only got out for half an hour or so (didn't trust the boys), when I got home and checked them she looked a little gimpier.. I wish I could know for sure that turnout or lock up is best for her. Such a strange presentation.... she does look pretty good on the flat for the most part and is weighting her heel most all the time now...down hill is still a problem. Once she gets going she looks close to normal for her, but she starts out a little stiff.
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jun 3, 2010 - 10:07 pm: Dr.O I was working on Flash's hooves a little bit tonight and lightly rasped into her white line to clean it off and see if I could see anything. Her white line is nice and tight, but right at her toe I did find a nice tidy hole in her LF the apparently lame one and it was not what I would call small, it had no drainage and looked old yet possibly deep, it was NOT a black defect it was a very round hole...I Lost my knife and couldn't dig. I also notice when holding her hooves for cleaning the LF does have a little heat in it compared to the right, not a lot more, but noticeable. I went and got the hoof testers and put them on the hole and did get a reaction, nothing in the toe on RF. I am going to get a hoof knife tomorrow and explore this a little further. My question is IF this is an abscess at the toe would it make sense that she doesn't want to weight her heel? The only way I can figure is I guess they can't really take the weight off their toes so she stands like that trying to unweight the whole hoof, does that make sense? This has been going on for somewhere in the vicinity of 2 mos. can a unresolved abscess just simmer that long??? I know Hank had one that took over 6 weeks to present itself at the coronary band and he did act similar to the way Flash is acting, never 3 legged, just a little gimpy and off sometimes not always, until the day it popped then he went 3 legged. Thanks
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2010 - 5:49 am: I think it can be quite difficult to make a localization of where in the hoof an abscess is by the way they move and that would be a long time for an abscess to simmer. But a thorough exam with a a set of hoof testers is the way you answer is the problem in the sole and where in the sole it is. DrO
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2010 - 8:55 am: Diane, I've had abscesses in horses that were brewing off and on for longer than that.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2010 - 7:54 pm: Diane, I agree with Vicki Z, I have had horses go months being a little off, not show any heat, tenderness or sensitivity to hoof testers, get blocked, xrayed etc and not show anything, then one day the farrier hits the right spot and an explosion happens. Horse never went three-legged lame either, but I had one that did and it scared me half to death when she did it. Rachelle
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Jun 4, 2010 - 8:39 pm: Rachelle is exactly right about a horse going months and being just a little off due to a brewing abscess. Many, many months in some cases.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 5, 2010 - 12:59 pm: I guess I won't know for sure until something else presents itself or she gets worse. I did order her some of the RX boots, they won't be here until Weds. tho. I took her breakover back a bit and beveled her wall. I took her for a walk on the pavement to see how she was moving. She is landing heel first mostly, with a roll from outside to inside, she is also swinging that leg in further almost in front of the other one. I wouldn't call her dead lame, but she is lame enough that it worries me. She remains very bright eyed, bushy tailed and happy, getting up and down fine. The vet is coming middle of June I will have him examine her again and see what he thinks cuz I'm stumped
Member: lilo	Posted on Saturday, Jun 5, 2010 - 5:57 pm: Diane - the bright eyed, bushy tailed and happy parts are all good. I sure wish I had some advice for you, but I don't. Just good wishes, Lilo
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2010 - 5:35 pm: HMMM think I figured out the cure Spend $200 on boots and hoof stuff and she will get better before they even get here. Today I left Flash and Hank out together in the pasture all day.. one of those kill or cure things. I brought Hank up quietly and put him back with the other boys so she wouldn't start running, went down to get the battle axe and she took off flying up the hill, she can't be hurting too much can she?? I thought boy you should be limping good when you hit that hard paddock, actually she looked pretty good, she wasn't running on adrenaline, was just being a snot, so I put her in her pen and left the drylot open for her, she marched right out without a limp. HMMMMMM Betcha tomorrow she will be limping again, but maybe not since my $200 worth of stuff is still coming Crazy broad is going to drive me nuts yet.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2010 - 7:12 pm: I disagree with those who believe that abscesses brewing for long periods months then flare up is a common presentation. While it might happen, I have seen thousands of abscesses over the last 25 years and never seen such a presentation. I have seen bruises, founders, and poor quality horn in the sole that had a primary lameness that develops a complication of infection but once it becomes infected and is not draining the horses become three legged lame in short order. DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 6, 2010 - 10:58 pm: Dr.O I don't think it is a common presentation, but has happened to me once. On a good note up until dark that mare was looking pretty good moving around out in the drylot, I hope she is finally on the upswing...whatever it is, and I will have another pair of boots to add to my other 100 ....sigh.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 7:30 am: Diane, if you knew you had an abscess why did you allow it to go on for months? DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 8:18 am: Dr.O. I did know he had an abscess or at least suspected it, he wasn't "lame" just a little off and planted that foot differently. The farrier saw a wet spot on his shoe and I asked him to dig it out, he said it wasn't necessary and put the shoe back on. Next reset same thing, this time he did dig a little but I guess it had gone deeper by then. Hank got a little lamer as time went on and I had the farrier pull his shoes and had the vet out, he wouldn't dig at it either even tho it was quite obvious where the entry point was. Hank got a little lamer as time went on, but not horrible. I had the guy I worked for at the time come out and see what he could do, he did get it draining and Hank was better, but not 100%. Few weeks later he was laying in pain and it popped out the coronary band, heel, and sole drainage. So it went on for a few months, with him just a little short on that leg and actually sound some days. For the record I now have a DIFFERENT farrier and vet. (whether they are any better is questionable tho) The vets and farriers around here believe in letting an abscess take care of itself, what's a person to do. I believe I am capable of digging out a shallow abscess now, but not a deep one.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 6:27 pm: The farrier just left and Flash has one of the prettiest white lines I have ever seen, nice and tight, no black defects...perfect, so I guess founder or an abscess can pretty much be ruled out. She is still improving very slowly, she does have some filling in the fetlock area that comes and goes, no heat or pain on palpation. The limp has just about disappeared for the most part. While I believe she is NOT foundering or has an abscess according to her WL, I haven't completely ruled out something in the hoof, I was going to have the farrier hoof test her...then I forgot
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 7:05 pm: The key word here is "suspect" and I find it much more likely that some other disease process became infected or possibly the paring out resulted in infection. The lying in pain is typical for an abscess not the months of mild on again off again lameness. DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 7:50 pm: Dr. O, I know you don't think abscesses can hang around for a long time, but I had a horse that was NQR for 8 months. He had an attitude problem and never seemed truly comfortable, had him vetted by three different vets, had him blocked from his feet to his hips, hoof tested him just about every week. No one could find anything. His "lameness" showed up in the way he way gaited and the fact that he was not smooth and evenly gaited while pacing. At least 3 or 4 times in his training miles he would put in a stutter step and then straighten out again, didn't seem to matter if it was the turns or the straightaways. This horse was never lying around in pain nor was he three legged lame. After 8 months of this frustration, my blacksmith came out for his regularly scheduled visit and in the process of paring out his left hind foot must have hit the spot, because this horse jumped so high he almost broke the cross ties and the stuff that came out of his foot was very ugly, smelled rotten and looked like it had been in there a long,long time, which it probably was. It was as if the infection was sealed off by the horse's own body and then just sat there and stewed annoying the horse but not making him extremely lame. I have no answers as to why no one was able to pinpoint it, but I was glad when it came out and was very glad when it was totally healed. Within a few days the horse was jogging and training normally for the first time since I had him and his attitude was much better, he actually became a very nice horse. Rachelle
Member: vickiann	Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 8:25 pm: I agree with Rachelle on this due to my experience with my horses.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 11:53 am: That "stutter step" is a sign of an abscess brewing in one of my boys who has never been dead lame on account of one. They just eventually pop out at the Coronet or the farrier runs into them with his rasp (at which point my horse tends to fling his leg forward very emphatically).
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 6:38 pm: I have seen abscesses hang around a long time when improperly treated and resulting is an incredible amount of damage to the sole and wall. But what I do not see is this horses with long standing mild or "on again off again" lameness that have an abscess. Your experiences suggest other disease processes, a bruise or other type of tissue damage, that became complicated by an abscess. It is just the nature of undrained infections to become very painful very quickly. Anyone who has ever had an abscessed tooth, or even a splinter that has not been promptly removed and festered, or a bacterial infection under a nail is aware of this. Now imagine you have that festering splinter or ascessed tooth and you have to stand on it..... DrO
Member: gramsey1	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 8:29 pm: I have a huge respect for Dr. O. Thank you for creating this forum. And, I have to recognize the practical experience of Rachelle. Personally, I have seen, an infection in my wife's mouth, hang around for a few months, to end in an abscess, which quickly escalated to an emergency. I believe I may have observed this in horses too. Unfortunately, I have no advice on how to treat the early symptoms.
Member: scooter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 8:33 pm: One more day until the boots arrive and for the last 2 days Flash is at her "normal level of soundness" I do have her on one gram of bute at night so not giving it tonight just to see where we stand without it. I have been turning her out in the pasture during the day, she gallops up the hill at night for supper.. Down hill slopes have improved greatly, and I think she is back to the normal arthritic hock down hill thing. Sam looks about the same going down hill. On hard ground still NQR but close. I had been leaving her in the dry pen at night also, but we got MORE rain so she is locked in her paddock at night when it is muddy. I feel she could go out with my geldings at this point, but Bonesy Loves her and will not leave her alone so can't put them all together. Maybe when the other horse gets here I can pair Bonesy up with her in the other side of the pasture and turn Flash out with Hank and Sam. Sure would be nice to get her out of the stall.
Member: mariean	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 10:24 pm: Unfortunately, I have encountered a number of abscesses-all have presented with an acute, very lame horse. I think we may have a slight miscommunication here-there are a number of things-sole bruises etc., which can result in mild or moderate lameness, and take time to resolve-but they can lead to an infection if the hoof is compromised and abscess, which happens rather quickly-or they resolve without secondary infection. I'm sure Dr. O will correct me if I'm wrong
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 10:46 pm: Dr. O, It is very hard to treat something properly or improperly that no one is able to find. That was the case here, if any one could have given me an inkling( including the horse) of where the problem was, I would have gladly treated it correctly, but that was not the case. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 9, 2010 - 7:07 am: When Hank had his for months I KNEW it was an abscess. The wet spot on the shoe and WL (with a defect) was pretty good evidence. I just couldn't get anyone to deal with it. From the time the wet shoe was found until it popped was well over 2 months with no major lameness, just a stutter step, and planting it differently. Unlike Rachelles horse Hank turned into a good boy when ridden and lost his ZOOM-ZOOM. Then I had a mare who never gave any signs of lameness until the day it popped out the coronary band Dr.O. what always made me wonder is if you have a gravel on the horse doesn't it have to travel through the whole hoof to get to the coronary band(against gravity) and couldn't it take months, and depending on the route it takes just make them a little off. The only time I have had a horse 3 legged from an abscess is the day it popped out the coronary and it had to get up there somehow.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Thursday, Jun 10, 2010 - 12:40 am: That is exactly my point rtrotter: foot abscess are more like a forest fire than a smoldering campfire and easy to find. Diane gravels are abscesses that have moved into the sensitive tissues of the wall and just about as painful as the infection in the sole. DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Friday, Jun 11, 2010 - 6:47 am: Ok Dr. O, Please bear with me here, so I can understand this. If abscesses are easy to find and are acute and very painful, to what do you attribute the long standing NQR status of the horse I posted about that was resolved once the pocket of infection was found by the blacksmith? Or are you drawing a line between an infection anywhere on a horses body(can be long standing) and the subsequent release and drainage of the infection when finally opened whether opened naturally or by a person? In other words at what point does a longstanding infection turn into an abscess? I am thinking the entire process from start to finish is the entire abscess formulation with the cure being the release of the infection. The forest fire can smolder for quite some time before it erupts into a full blown forest fire. It depends on the conditions. I think it is the same with abscesses. Rachelle
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Friday, Jun 11, 2010 - 8:45 pm: Rachelle, I do not know why your horse had lameness nor the relation of that with the abscess that formed. Abscesses form when: 1) tissue is disrupted (often by infection but not always) or there is the presence of antigen and 2) the body sends in white blood cells to fight the disruption and 3) the attacking WBC's are trapped within the tissues. DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Friday, Jun 11, 2010 - 9:39 pm: Ok Dr. O, Now that you have defined the formation of an abscess, there is nothing in this definition that states the duration of this formation. While it may be true that the acute state of this may be of short duration, does one ever know how long it took to get to that stage. My question about my horse was rhetorical, he had a long standing abscess, he had instant relief as evidenced by the return of soundness after 8 months of being NQR. How that abscess got there and it was there when I got him, it was there for a very long time. I and three vets did not even know it was an abscess until the day it popped. So, whatever you want to call it, an infection compromised by an abscess,or a smoldering abscess, it was relieved and then it was gone and that's all I really cared about. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 12, 2010 - 7:11 am: I will say I don't suspect Flash has an abscess anymore it IS her bowed tendon. The vet called the other day because he was placing an order for pergolide and wanted to know if Sam would need any soon. He asked how Flash was, and I told him her symptoms and about her "puffy" fetlock and he said without seeing her he would agree that I was probably right and it was her tendon that was injured again. He will be out next week sometime for rabies shots and will check her then. She is improving VERY slowly but surely.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Saturday, Jun 12, 2010 - 8:06 am: Rachelle what I care about is that folks who come to these pages get accurate information so they can make the best decisions on the next step on caring for their horses. That includes the symptoms of the diseases that effects their horses. It is important they understand that a mild on-again off-again lameness, that does not clearly localize to the sole, and presents this way over along time in not likely to be a solar abscess. DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 12, 2010 - 10:23 am: Dr. O, I too wish to educate the people reading and posting to these pages and I try to do it from a practical point of view and from 35+ years of experience. The stories I relate here tend to illustrate perhaps another perspective that can not be looked at from underneath a scientific microscope. I would never discourage readers to have their horses checked out to try and localize on and off lameness as I did with mine, but after all was said and done it was in his foot and it did resolve once found and opened. My horse's case as above, clearly demonstrates, that while it may not likely be a solar abscess, it can not be ruled out either. It did not clearly localize to the sole, for that matter it didn't localize anywhere. I think this unlikely possibility happens a lot more frequently than one would expect. I also think there are others on this board that feel the same way as I do based on their experiences with their horses. I want to open everyone's eyes to the possibility that this may occur, I want to apologize to Diane for stealing her thread and to you Dr.O this is another one of those discussions where we are going to have to agree to disagree. Rachelle
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Saturday, Jun 12, 2010 - 9:31 pm: Rachelle this is the problem with temporal relationships. You associate the popping out of an abscess and the resolution of a long standing on again and off again lameness and conclude that the two are the same disease despite there being no symptoms of an abscess. This is the same as saying because folks got well following a good bleeding or administration of medicines that we now know are clearly toxic were the reason the patient got well (with the exception of those individuals with hereditary haemochromatosis). And this leads us to taking your advice to the practical plane. Are you suggesting that folks with mild recurring chronic lameness without symptoms of solar disease go digging in the sole looking for a occult abscess? Or just accept the horse is lame with a smoldering abscess but cannot do anything about it since it does not localize with the hoof testers? Since these are the only two consequences of this idea, which do you support? DrO
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Sunday, Jun 13, 2010 - 12:20 pm: Actually, Dr. O. I do not support either of these consequences because as stated above, we did not know this was an abscess until it popped and the horse showed no lameness at any gait except at speed on the pace. At the time we attributed it to a hitch in his giddy up and that it might have been a maturity problem and that was the way he was going to be gaited until he got stronger. All I am and have been saying is that you can not rule it out even if it is by your standards uncommon. If by calling this a temporal relationship, you are saying that all the events that took place over 8 months until the abscess was relieved and the horse was sound almost instantaneously were unrelated and only coincidental, I doubt this very highly based on observations. In fact, I cannot come to any other conclusion other than all the events during that 8 month span were entirely related and were resolved when the abscess popped. The fact that I did not put this together until after the fact, does not change what happened or the series of events and it made me more aware that the possibility of strange presentations in on again off again lamenesses could very well be coming from the foot, even if it does not localize with hoof testers. I am not sure had I known what it was at the time, I would have or could have done anything different, I certainly wasn't going to drill or dig into his foot to find it, not being able to localize it in his foot. And the horse was certainly not sore enough to stop with just goofy gaited. Rachelle
Member: vickiann	Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2010 - 7:23 pm: While I've had horses become profoundly sore with a "gravel" abscess I've also had horses who are just "not quite right" or have the "stutter step" as they go along -- just every now and then. I've even ridden a horse for a few consecutive weeks (working on an abscess) who was "off" and less than enthusiastic only to have an abscess pop out at the Coronet band within a few weeks without him ever becoming lame. In some cases the symptoms (lack of enthusiasm, foot now and then giving a bit at a particular gait) went on for incredibly long -- many, many months, and as you said, Rachelle, once it popped it was as though I had a new horse. I've had a horse show no signs of lameness but also have seen him only walking around out in the pasture rather than trotting or going faster. Months later after the abscess resolved by draining (whether self or Vet resolved) the horse was again flying around the pasture at speed. Not only do I believe an abscess can simmer but that it is more common than we may think. On the other hand, in some cases there may be a long-standing situation that eventually causes the abscess to finally come to a head? I will remain open-minded to the various possibilities. Today I asked my farrier if he thought that abscesses could "simmer" for a long time -- even for a year, for instance. He does believe that this happens and that sometimes things that we do prevent the abscess from resolving sooner, such as stalling the horse, putting on shoes or pads or cushions. He believes that it takes exercise and pressure to help the abscess to resolve and in the absence of this things may drag on for a longer term.
Member: scooter	Posted on Monday, Jun 14, 2010 - 9:40 pm: I too believe in smoldering abscesses, while maybe not common I believe they happen That said I have been reading through Flashes bowed tendon saga and it is all the same as her symptoms have been with this new lameness. While I don't think it is quite as bad as the original "bow" only because her fetlock hasn't DrOpped further. Dr.O. the only thing that does confuse me in her original thread I stated hard or soft ground didn't make a difference...this time around she is definitely moves better on soft ground. I am guessing maybe her RT. hoof may be sore from weight bearing more, but really don't suspect laminitis in it.... would that make any sort of sense? She is improving slowly, I hand walk her when the footing is bad for around 5-10 mins. When footing is good I let her out in the flattest part of the pasture to roll and graze QUIETLY by herself for an hour or so, just to keep her from getting stir crazy. She is weighting her heel now again, and her limp is much improved. I wrap her legs with a poultice every night. It IS swollen a little, but I still don't ever detect any heat. I have been giving her a gram and a half of bute every night...nothing in the morning, tonight I didn't give her any to see how she is without it, and will play that by ear...so YES it did turn out she re-bowed
Member: vickiann	Posted on Tuesday, Jun 15, 2010 - 8:33 am: Hope that you will see improvement, Diane.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2010 - 2:56 pm: It would only make sense if she was lame on the right fore? DrO
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2010 - 5:20 pm: ??? is right I think she is tho. She looked pretty good without the bute, but with the swelling remaining I am going to continue to give her bute at night.
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:53 pm: Do you ever have one of those days you wonder if you were even born with a brain? I have been leaving Flash in her yard pen that is attached to her pen in the lean-to. She has been doing OK but not great, When I leave her out I just open the gate and she walks out. I was doing some work in the lean-to and walking in and out of the gate and had forgotten I had left the yard pen gate open. Flash figured I opened it to leave her out, saw the open gate out of the yard pen and took off like a bat out of He$$, up through the back yard, onto the front yard out into the road with me running behind her trying to catch her praying a car wouldn't come. She went about 500 yards up the road did a U-turn galloped right by me, headed home and ran right back into the paddock. The next morning she looked pretty bad, and thoughts about putting her down were going through my head. OF COURSE I had just ran out of bute and had to pick some up that day. In the mean time due to circumstances beyond my control I had to put her out with Hank and Sam in the pasture, she limped on out looking pitiful in every leg. She spent the day grazing, itching fiercely with Hank and seemed to really enjoy herself.... a good roll in the dirt (up and down was still good) I got some bute brought it home mixed it in her syringe with applesauce and went out to give it to her, That mare was moving as good as she gets! The limp is gone, she doesn't look all out of wack, and has remained that way... I didn't even give her the bute she looked so good. She remains buteless and out with the boys looking good as she gets How weird is that??? LOL
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 9:30 pm: Sounds like Flash benefited from her exercise. She is defying aging. Oh, Diane . . . I do know how you feel and relate to your struggles.
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 11:24 pm: My answer to your first question is yes, most of my days. Good for Flash!
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2010 - 8:04 pm: Dr.O. Flash remains fairly "Flash sound" but she has days here and there she looks worse but overall good improvement. Since she bowed her tendon the FIRST time her front hooves have grown strange, the left one with the bowed tendon grows straight up and down, almost clubby, she puts down a lot of heel on that hoof, would there be a reason for this and should I leave it be, or try to slowly bring it down?
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2010 - 8:29 pm: Hi Diane, What timing, Julie Masner just posted a link to a Ric Redden article on thehorse.com. It may give you an explanation as to why that foot is going clubby. Although, he is using a weanling as an example, I think what he says would hold true of any horse that was having a long term problem with a tendon. Her lack of weighting her heel, may have something to do with it. https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11882 Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2010 - 11:17 pm: Thanks Rachelle, while I don't belive she has a "true" club foot it definitely grows much more upright than the other one. She does have concavity and I don't think her soles are thin...yet anyway. She tolerates gravel very well.... HMMMM altho she most definitely seems more comfy or strides better on soft ground. I have tried rasping a little off her heel (VERY little) to see if it would help and I THINK it made her a little worse, but not positive. The article didn't really say how to "handle them" and hers isn't really a club foot technically I don't think. Her angle just seems too steep. Here's a pic from June, it has gotten "steeper" I don't know if I should mess with the angle she wants or if it would help her to SLOWLY lower it?? The effect it would have on the tendon concerns me more than the hoof.
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 6:56 am: Diane, I just reread all of this thread, and from what I can tell Flash has all the symptoms described in the Redden article for the beginning of a stage 1 club foot,caused by her body trying to relieve the pressure on her tendon. 1. Bowed Tendon 2. Not weighting heel 3. Toe abscess 4. Worse after trim(heels lowered) 4. Better after light exercise( stretches the tendon) I know in babies they use special glue-on foal extensions to try and fix the problem, but in his article he does say not to lower the heel because it makes the problem worse, even though it makes the foot look better. IMO, I think light exercise in addition to her paddock time and maybe some leg paint(such as S-B solution)might help her more than trying to deal with the hoof. I think the hoof will fix itself, when(and or if) the tendon can get back some of its elasticity and function more normally. My vet explained the reasoning behind leg paints was that it was a controlled inflammatory response that brought circulation to a specific area. S-B solution is specifically for tendons and ligaments it is not a harsh paint. Does not need to be bandaged, can be used on a wet leg( after hosing). It tightens and brings circulation at the same time. While it is meant to be used daily for a long period of time( sort of builds up a crusty looking appearance), I usually paint for three days and sweat for three days and have had very good results. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 7:48 am: I think her tendon is healing, she does weight her heel all the time now. that's why I wondered if slowly taking it down now would help or hinder the tendon, she can't get rid of all that heel by herself, then again I don't want to aggravate it further since it seems to be healing finally. When I walk her on the pavement the difference in footfalls is remarkable. I can't tell if it is her hoof or tendon, however when I move over to the grassy, soft side of the road there is no difference in foot falls and she strides much better. Hoof or tendon?? could the vet tell me, I doubt it, so I am stuck again trying to figure it out.
Moderator: DrO	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 7:55 am: Lowering that heel Diane will put extra tension on the deep digital flexor tendon. Because I do not know whether the increase is heel length is do to trimmer error or because the tendon has either mechanically (scar tissue contraction) or functionally (pain in the tendon causes unloading of the heel) shortened I cannot quess as to whether it should be corrected. One way I would assess this is whether I can palpate a lot of tension on the flexor compared with the other side with the horse standing square. DrO
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 9:55 am: Interesting article Rachelle. Diane, I would think the way I treated my Achilles Tendon injury would apply to Flash's tendon. I started out with a small heel insert and went to PT for massage and US. For people, there are only about 2 stretches for that specific tendon; on a small foot rocker I bought. I was told to stay active, and slowly peel off the layers of the heel insert; "Lowering the heel" My PT worked the scar tissue in my tendon (we are talking years of pain before I tried PT again, the first time did nothing for me!)very painfully I might add, plus more work on my calf muscles. I am not sure if that is exactly the same as a horses flexor tendon, but a tendon is a tendon so it would make sense to me. Limited turnout, some forced walking, treating the tendon itself with massage/sweats/mud, and slowly lower the heel makes since in my mind. Oh, I see that's what Rachelle pretty much said, lol!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 10:13 am: Rachelle, I see you don't list an email in your profile so I hope Diane don't mind me asking this here. I googled S-B solution and found that and a Ball Solution. I am very interested in both products and was wondering if you have anything else to share regarding their use? You say above to use the S-B for 3 days, then sweat the leg(s). Could you share what method you use to sweat a leg? I have one mare who has had some swelling in a hind leg for a couple of months now, no lameness, no heat, just would like to get it gone completely. Sorry for the interruption Diane; I hope the answer to my question helps Flash too!
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 8:05 pm: Angie, I have used both products. I normally use Ball Solution on joints, ankles and sometimes knees, although I haven't had any horses lately that I need to use anything on. Ball Solution may be a bit too strong to use on tendons, unless you are trying to blister lightly(not done that in years either). Thank you OCD Pellets! The Ball solution is a bit stronger than the S-B solution(it used to be called Shin-Ban)and it might have a higher percentage of Iodine as its base. As far as the sweating goes. I use Victory Lane on the legs, use a no-bow bandage, plastic wrap over the no-bow and a regular stall bandage. I like Victory Lane as a sweat because it is very soothing and it seems to chemically work well with the S-B Solution (meaning no reactions with the paint already on the leg). Let me know if you need anymore info. Oh and it was Julie Masner that originally posted that Redden article. Rachelle
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 8:44 pm: Oops, Thank you Julie! Thanks Rachelle for more info. Don't know if I need it but something to file away for later reference. I HATE trying to decide which products do what and are worth buying. You have so much experience with keeping legs & hoofs healthy.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 7:06 am: Dr.O. this is not caused by the farrier, her other hoof is fine, this happened after she bowed her tendon the first time, once she was healed he trimmed her normally again, when her tendon was sore he did leave a little more heel on that hoof, then it would appear she has had a re-bow and the hoof started this again. While I am not good at feeling tendons, to me it seemed the tension was the same, she does stand with that leg unloaded sometimes and occasionally limps on it. There is no heat or unusual swelling in that leg any longer...there never was any heat. I have a feeling lowering that heel a little may make her more comfy, but I can't go by my feelings with something like this.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2010 - 11:22 pm: Well when the farrier came we had a little discussion about lowering Flashes heel, like me he thought it a bit of a catch 22. So I told him to take it down 50% and if it helped her I would rasp a little bit each week to keep lowering it, and if it didn't she can grow it back.. hopefully no harm done. When he got done I walked her off and she definitely didn't look better and actually a little worse, however having her hooves done is a bit like a flex test and the poor old lady does have arthritis, so couldn't really go by that. She stood very well to have both hooves done which was encouraging. The next morning she actually looked better, and this morning even a little better yet.. sooo I guess I am going to slowly bring that heel down the rest of the way and see what happens... The funny thing is she is always weighting her heel now... granted it has only been 2 days... as everything horse.... time will tell
Member: rtrotter	Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2010 - 5:05 pm: Diane, I just thought I'd relate something I read in one of my local newspapers. While the article wasn't about horses, it got me thinking about the relationship between a horses tendons, ligaments and muscles and the height of a horse's heels. Basically, a study was done with women that had worn high heels for most of their life and they looked at women who had worn flat shoes. They found the women in high heels had leg structures, (specifically calf muscles) that were significantly shorter than those women who had worn flats. The women who wore high heels were asked to switch to flat shoes and were found to experience substantial pain due to the stretching of the shorter calf muscles during the time they were not in heels. I think this happens in horses too, especially in ones with injured tendons that shorten up while they heal. This is why I do not believe in complete stall rest for horses with tendon injuries and instead keep them in light work and or turnout(if they are not stupid) during their rehab. While it may take a bit longer for the tendon to heal, when it does heal, getting the horse back to full work happens a lot more quickly and the fibers of the tendon heal with less scar tissue and more strength with the majority of the fibers going in the right direction. Because the light exercise allows the tendon to stretch, the heel height and angle remain more normal resulting in a better functioning limb after the injury is completely healed. Thought the study was interesting anyway. Rachelle
Member: scooter	Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2010 - 6:38 pm: That makes sense, and why I didn't want to chop it all off at once, but in increments. Flash hasn't really been on much stall rest, at night I lock her in if the conditions are muddy, but she still has a big paddock (with good footing to move in) She is either in the yard pen(if muddy) or a small pasture(if not muddy) all day. I hope this helps her, she really does not seem to be in pain, I haven't felt the need to give her bute for quite awhile. It's a hard thing to gauge, but her quality of life seems very good at this point anyway Next week I will rasp a little more heel off and see how that goes.
Member: vickiann	Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2010 - 8:26 pm: Sounds like you are on the right track, Diane. When I've lowered heels on horses I've often given Bute for a few days to ease the transition. There is bound to be some temporary soreness issues with changes.
Member: lilo	Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2010 - 10:24 am: Again from the human side: A coworker ruptured his Achilles tendon. It was repaired surgically, and he was in a cast for some time. Initially the cast positioned the foot so the heel was higher than normally, and every 2 weeks or so the angle was changed to become more normal, so the tendon could gradually stretch without tearing again. I always tell everyone that I know more about horse's injuries than people's, but there are parallels at times. Lilo
Member: vickiann	Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2010 - 12:37 pm: Interesting, Lilo.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2010 - 7:56 pm: Well since Flash's left right seems to be "back to normal" it is quite obvious her RR is included in this lameness mix. She looks normal for her in the front now, but definitely short strided and limpy on RR. I can't tell if it is her hock or stifle. She does not seem painful really, I leave her out with the herd now during the day and she is so happy to be with them again, she canters up the hill at night for supper and night "lock up". She look good (for her) on flat ground and uphill...down hill is still kind of ugly, but I am sure now this is her RR causing the down hill ugliness not her bowed tendon or hooves. She is bright, happy, hungry and very involved in the herd, so she can stay around until this changes, I don't feel she is suffering at all. Am going to study rear leg lameness now and see if there is anything I can pinpoint and maybe help her a little. I'm sure you will see questions in that area soon
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2010 - 8:38 pm: Left right wonder which leg that is LOL...I really do need a vacation
Member: vickiann	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2010 - 9:09 pm: Never a dull moment, Diane! But it sounds like Flash is doing pretty well. Keep us informed.
Member: scooter	Posted on Wednesday, Jul 28, 2010 - 11:27 pm: Thanks Vicki, for an old girl she manages pretty well, I look at her sometimes and wonder just what to do for her, she really doesn't seem what I consider painful, but sometimes she looks a little uncomfortable. Her demeanor and attitude is so bright tho and her eyes still light right up so I would like to try to make her a little more comfortable. Going to try naproxen I think and see if that will help her out...If I can figure out the dosage ect!!!
Member: ajudson1	Posted on Thursday, Jul 29, 2010 - 8:47 am: Left right is the opposite of the right left, we got it! Don't feel bad, I had to make an appt for our daughters foot; and when asked which foot was injured, I said her left front! Oh wait, Gem(the horse) has HER left leg injured. LF. And RH was swelled in April. Pretty bad I can keep the horses injuries straight but not my own daughter!! I think Flash will fool you and be bright eyed and bushy tailed for years yet; we all get a hitch in our giddy ups as we get older. Is she on a joint supplement? Might make her more comfortable the while you try to determine what else it might be. Good luck.
Member: scooter	Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 12:07 am: Well Flash has managed to rebound from this re-bow, she spent most of the summer in the yard pen for a couple hours, and locked up in her paddock/stall the rest of the time. Once in a great while I left her in the pasture just to move around a bit. Honestly I thought this would be her last summer on earth, but she is doing well. She weights her heel all the time now, her fetlock isn't DrOpped, downhills is back to normal for her and she canters/bucks up hill to come in for the night. She willingly picks up RF for cleaning without me having to bribe her with a treat I keep Sam in with her now so she has company and the 2 old coots love each other. Hank stays with my friends horse to babysit her Her horse is going somewhere else tomorrow so Flash will be in with Sam and Hank which is no problem they don't bother her. While I wouldn't call her "sound" she is definitely pasture sound and doesn't seem painful at all. She is on no pain relievers, or medication. She just got her teeth done the other day and still has them all and are in good shape for a 31yo. When the vet came he said he still thinks her quite swayed back is what is going to be what breaks her down...he's just so positive I tell ya! I told him he can think what he wants, but from what I have read lordosis usually isn't a big problem causer in horses. He still says it will break down her hooves,....she has the best hooves of the 3 of them! So with any luck Flash will be here to enjoy our "fresh" winter weather...with Blanky on stand by
Member: vickiann	Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 6:06 pm: It is great to hear that Flash is doing so well. My experience with sway backed horses is that saddle fit is the big issue. Why your Vet would say that it would cause her hooves to break down is beyond me.
Member: lilo	Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 10:10 pm: Go Flash! Prove the vet wrong! Lilo

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