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  Discussion on Breaking Down III
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Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, May 2, 2010 - 9:39 pm:

First, I saw VickiZ posted on the other thread, thank you, that makes me feel a bit better!

Ok, here we go:

Left hind:




Front feet from the front:


Right front from the top:





Left front from the top:





Does the left front look like I can bring the toes way back? From the lateral view that's what looks like what needs to be done, to me, anyway.

Oh, and he's still a happy pony landing heel first on all four feet! I know the pics aren't the best, but whatever guesses you have are more than welcome. Ran out of batteries for the right hind, sorry and Thank you!
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 4:53 pm:

Ok, help. Here's the left front after I worked on it a bit. I am absolutely not good at rasping, it doesn't appear smooth to me, should I get a different rasp? Diane, you mentioned a while back about a different kind of rasp other than the riders rasp. Would that help me here? I tried the big girls rasp and I still can't "get it." His hairline is crooked and I don't know what to do to fix it.




Here's the right front.


Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 8:03 pm:

Hi Aileen, the travelers rasp was the other rasp I used...I love that thing. can't help you with the hooves, think I am confused again I'll leave that to the people who know a little more.

Do you have a solar view? that might help

https://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=8023
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 10:08 pm:

Oh thank you Diane! I'll order one of those and see if it helps my incoordination.

Sorry, here's the left front:


right front - farrier pared out some thrush at the tip of the frog, so it looks like his frog is too short in the picture.


How do you all tell where the white line is? I think I may have gotten a bit too close? He's fine, walking around still heel first, but I don't want to get too close to it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 10:53 pm:

Aileen, it goes hoof wall, waterline, whiteline. I bevel into Hanks WL quite often, it doesn't seem to bother him, but his is quite stretched. for us to tell where Braves is you need to scrub the hoof well and try to get clearer pictures, your pics seem a little fuzzy and small sometimes... could be my aging eyes tho, I can't make out the bars or collateral grooves, whiteline or much of anything.

If you are just using the riders rasp I doubt very much if you got too close to the white line...I don't think it is possible with it. It APPEARS in the RF solar at the toe you are at the waterline.... that is your goal.

LF

is this where his bars are?? it also appears as if his inside wall is higher than the outside, but again hard to tell from these pics. It also appears as if his heel bulbs are uneven, had that problem with Hank too

This is all a guess, your pics really need to be a little clearer and bigger if possible. Most of them are 20 something KB's you can go as much as 64... just trying to help you get better pics so you can get more help.. it really is hard to comment on your pics because of this. Took me a long time to get better at them and some days they still are bad!!!

Had to flip picture, I'm bad enough at right side up, upside down just throws me!

Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 9, 2010 - 11:12 pm:

PS.. remember you can't bring that toe and heel back where they belong overnight it takes time and persistence and unfortunately patience You've been dealing with this for years Aileen, good for you for trying to help out and keep his hoof in check between farrier visits it really does help. You will feel more comfortable as time goes on ( I even use a knife now and that scared the crap out of me at first).. the Travelers rasp is very easy to handle and works just like a "big girls rasp" Keep us updated and work on your hoof picture skills too
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 10:48 am:

Thank you Diane! I don't know where his bars are on the fronts! I am assuming he has overlaid bar that's blending in with the sole which is why I can't see the bar, so when some pops up I take it down even with the sole or just above the sole.

I too bought a knife that I am VERY CAREFUL using. It scares the crap out of me. But his feet are so hard now that I couldn't get any of the bar with the hoofpick. I need a smaller blade, this blade is 2 inches long, I need a one inch blade I think.

What should I scrub the hoof with? I brush it and I can't see the lines...glad though that it's just the waterline -- I thought waterline and white line were one and the same.

Re: pictures... they're fuzzy because a certain chestnut pony thinks it's funny to move his hoof at the exact moment I'm taking the picture... stinker.

I'll experiment on the sizing. This is the size that HA would take so I just use that... didn't experiment with larger pics.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 10:42 pm:

Aileen I have to scrub Hanks hoof with a wire brush and water to see his WL . Just a precaution I did learn to let them dry or dried them off first before taking a pic. The water/wetness throws a glare on the pictures!

Here's about all I can figure out, remember I am VERY novice too.

Red line shows where there is a toe flare, tho the top part does appear to be coming in slightly tighter, I would keep that toe back best you can and bevel it... you will have to put up with that until the flare has hit the ground and if you did your job right it will be gone. I am almost rid of hanks!

The blue line at the coronary band shows a high spot, you probably have a high spot on the bottom, reliving the quarters will help with that almost immediately, it did Hank anyway.



You can not relieve the quarters with the riders rasp, you can with the travelers rasp or a regular rasp... I actually find it easier to use the travelers rasp for that....but that's just me

I still don't have relieving the quarters down very good, but even doing it half A$$ed seems to be helping quite a bit.. I'm slowly improving.

Here is a pic of Hanks hoof in Dec about 5 mos. ago when I decided to start doing it myself (with MUCH MUCH help from HA people!)



My attempt at relieving quarters and Hanks hoof 5 mos later Just keeping the toe and walls beveled and the quarters relieved and bringing his heels back occasionally (still trying to figure that one out, but as Angie explained turning the rasp around backwards and dragging it at an angle of the bar worked well for me, I still have heel problems I can't quite grasp in my head so I can't comment too much on that!

While his hoof is VERY FAR from perfect, quite an improvement and it was fairly easy once I got things pounded in my head a few times!

My ugly but seems to be working relieving of the quarters

Hope this helps and hope I got it right! I don't understand how Brave is landing heel first with that long toe, Hank is still landing toe first more often than not, but much improved. The only time he landed heel first with his long toes was when his toe hurt???

Member:
juliem

Posted on Monday, May 10, 2010 - 11:40 pm:

Brave is probably landing heel first because it looks as if his heels are back to the widest part of the frog. Imagine trying to land heel first if the heel of your shoe wasn't under your own "bony column."
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 7:46 am:

Julie can you explain that a little further? I don't quite get what you mean? Braves heel is kind of (very) confusing to me. If you look at his lateral his heel looks quite run under??? his hoof looks forward of where it should be. It appears this is where his heel is weight bearing (where the red dot is)
Are you saying his heel is where it belongs??

Something is strange about all his hooves, from the solar and lateral views, but I don't know what it is!!! They SEEM to be shaped pointy and flat from the lateral and missing landmarks from the solar.
It seems like he has tall or steep toes, his rears have the same thing. Can someone tell me (us) what makes them look like that?? As much as I would like to help Aileen < I can't quite pinpoint the total problem
I know his toe looks long and steep??? and his heel appears run under, but then it doesn't...dunno. That is why I hesitate to say much!

Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 8:07 am:

While I do understand Hanks hoof still has MANY problems I outlined his too because it is handy on my puter, Think maybe I got it now.. Braves Angles are off???

Here's Braves and Hanks hoof outlined they are different shaped, different angles?? Sorry my lines are kind of squiqqly.

Sorry for all the pics Aileen, but trying to understand Braves hoof.





Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 9:16 am:

I keep thinking the hinds have a broken axis, and the fronts are too steep. But I don't know either for sure. They just look different to my eye too. Maybe contracted heels, heels need to be left a bit to catch up the toe???
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 10:21 am:

I don't think from the angle of the pictures, you can make that comparison between Hank and Brave. Look at the growth of the tubules. Angie, if those heels were any higher, he would have an even steeper angle on the dorsal wall. Remember, we're looking at pictures, not the actual foot and if he's landing heel first and sound..... I really determine the place the heels should end from the solar using the widest part of the frog as the ultimate goal. All three of my teachers do and that's how I've been instructed.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 10:50 am:

Thank you Diane, ok good, you stated that “the top part does appear to be coming in slightly tighter,” I’m being told to try to keep that toe back to coincide with that tighter line so as it grows out it will be correct. I'm glad you agree. If I let the toes go then he looks WAY run forward with the really long toes. Platter feet.

Re: Blue lines: oh! Great point! I agree that trying the quarters could help. I will see what I can do, but aren’t the quarters farther back toward the heel?

Hank looks great, good job!

I’m hearing that if I can keep his toe back eventually the heels will come back underneath him. BUT if I relieve the quarters too much, won’t that just allow the heel to move forward instead of back? It seems that’s all it’s been doing, there must be a secret out there somewhere.

What I see is that his right front seems fine as far as angles go. The left front needs his toe back even more. Thoughts?

Angie, thanks, I don't know about him being too steep, I feel that he's good on the right if I can just get his heel under him. Xrays show his foot IS underneath him in both front feet, but isn't the growing forward a precurser to bony changes?

Julie, what should I do about the bars, can you tell where the heck they are? Are they down toward the middle of the foot or is that sole?

Thanks!
Member:
juliem

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 11:13 am:

I can't tell where his bars are. If they're not above the level of the wall and taper toward the sole and aren't laid over or broken, you probably don't have to do anything with them.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 11:34 am:

Thank you Julie!

Just above the pink line there is a sharp edge. How do I tell if that's bar or sole? I am keeping it down below the hoof wall, but I'm wondering if that's bar laid over and that's why we can't see the bar?


One more question? When we talk about the quarters, how do you determine where to relieve? If I relieve the quarter toward the back of the quarter (nearer the heel), would that encourage growth forward or back? How do I determine how far back to go?

However, he has a raised line near the front of the quarter as Diane pointed out. So should that area be relieved as well? Or should I just let him be? Sorry for all the questions, the ground is wet, so if I want to do something to him it will be tonight in the hopes that his feet aren't so dang hard.

Thanks!!!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 9:11 pm:

So Julie you think his hoof looks OK the way it is??? Aileen IF he is landing heel first and sound maybe you should just leave them alone?? I don't know I get more confused the more I read. Aileen how do you think his hoof looks in hand???
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:37 am:

Hi Diane, to be honest, I think he looks pretty good for where he's at. Obviously he's not at the ultimate goal of the perfect feet, but for now, he has improved and he does land heel first on all four feet and is sound. I have not worked him at three gaits, but does trot and canter in pasture.

I just worked on the left front last night, did a little more at the toe, blended in the sole in case it's bar, and did the drag back of the rasp. Granted I didn't use very much pressure on anything because I wasn't sure what I was doing would be right, so very minimal changes... but he licked and chewed after I put his foot down. That's a sign to me that I didn't do more damage.

I didn't get pics last night but will tonight. I thought there was not as much hoof in front of the tip of the frog. Funny how he can look ok to the naked eye, but then when in pictures it's ALL out of wack so we'll see what it looks like in pictures.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:50 pm:

Ok, well, you tell me:





right front:


This is his left hind on no pain meds for over a week:
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 6:41 am:

Looks good Aileen. His toe Appears better it really is hard with pictures as I know, but from these last shots looks like you are on the right track with the fronts and they look pretty good

Can't say much about the rear from the pic, but his fetlock looks much better. Keep up the good work!
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 3:42 pm:

Oh thank goodness!! Thanks Diane! :-)

Ok, reading about the seat of the corn now, he had more than half the symptoms. He had/has:

overgrown long toes but no acute lameness, his is chronic, right?

Warm or hot bulb of heel and a painful focus detectable at the seat of corn with hoof testers

His heel bulbs were hot in the rears, no longer. Never checked the front feet.

A focal red or black bruised area, blood-streaked horn or even pus and under running of the heel may be found when the shoe is removed and the foot is pared back

I see red and very underrun.

Careful examination of the hoof wall at the heels may reveal a curled-under wall, which causes pressure on the seat of corn and lamina problems with the urgent need for corrective farriery

CURLED UNDER wall at the heels on all four feet! ug.

His heels are still curled a bit on the front feet, but no where near where they were.

I'll look at him again tonight and make sure the corn is below the wall.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 7:05 pm:

Aileen,
The feet do look somewhat better but the hairline still DrOps off sharply in some instances.

He doesn't look like he has that much foot to spare and in my experience robbing the foot and continuing to take the toe back does not result in putting the heel back where it belongs.

Under-run heels such as you describe need to be gradually taken down to put them back where they belong but you may need to let the entire foot grow out for several weeks more before you can accomplish this.

I know that this sounds strange, but it is true. Heels like you describe are under-running because they need to be taken back.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:22 am:

Oh yes, Vicki, I totally agree. Farrier came out a couple of weeks ago to take back his heels, but I'm afraid she's being very conservative, perhaps too conservative? I know it needs to be done gradually but if his front heels are still curling - not much but still - should it just be fixed and done with?

Farrier is coming out when I call her to check my work and tweak. We are trying to keep him in somewhat of a balanced state so she doesn't have to do much to alter his hoof and he can just keep growing.

The corn is just below the hoofwall, I will work on it this weekend. I also think that is what is going on with the left hind, why his heels look so funky but are getting better since I worked on that a while ago on his left hind - not knowing what I was doing - but it helped!
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Friday, May 14, 2010 - 10:31 am:

At the pictures at the top of this thread, look at the right front sole view, there is yellow and red at the heels... look at the left hind, same thing but only on the outside and not as bad. Corns? If so, could the corn in the right front be so painful as to cause him to compensate with the left hind?
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 9:11 am:

I have been following this thread for since Breaking Down I. And wonder have you considered the possibility that this is a suspensory problem?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 10:55 am:

Guy I think she does think (know) this is a suspensory problem, she is trying to improve his hoof form to help with it.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 8:27 am:

Spot on Diane :-) I'll try to get some pictures today. Farrier came out and fixed the flares, but he's short. ug. She just beveled, no nippers... she remembered! Not lame, but just a bit tender, though he's walking on rocks ok still not headbobbing or anything, you can tell.

Vet has come out and did his 3 month or so check. Said he looks good at 1150 pounds. pasterns no worse. Took blood for CBC and mineral panels. All in normal range... even IRON - high normal but still... from way above normal to high normal is great. woot!

Ultrasound of his heart and legs - most likely just left hind just to see - in July.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, May 31, 2010 - 9:51 pm:

Glad that the iron is looking more normal, Aileen.

Let us know how it is going as time passes and after the Ultrasounds.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 2, 2010 - 11:03 pm:

Thank you Vicki, I realize that iron may not play a huge role, but I'm glad it's back to normal.

Ok, pics... not good ones though. I had to use the flash and it sort of whited out the pics in places. I will say that I am happy that I have finally found the bars on the front feet though! I don't know if you can tell from the pics, they aren't where they should be yet, but here we go:

Left Front:



Right Front:


Right hind:


Left hind:

Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 12:01 pm:

Well, the ground has hardened considerably so we put glue on shoes on yesterday. I'm getting some durasole to see if it helps but it won't come until next week. I'll apply the durasole and hope in six weeks he can go without the glueons

Before Glue:

Right front


Left front



After Glue:

Right front:



Left Front:



Hind:

Right:




Left:


Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 12:11 pm:

On the lateral left hind view, he's walking just on his frog... not happy. She rasped the heck out of his front feet because I was not doing a good job keeping his toe back. She said she had to keep the growth in line with the new growth for it to grow out properly, which we know... In my weak defense, I couldn't see the white line so I didn't know how far I could go... turns out I could have taken off a bit more than a quarter of an inch off both front toes. I did better with the hinds.

His fetlocks are not better after all this, but I do think he is more comfy which is good. He is still able to pick up all four feet with no resistance. The time I can hold the hind feet up is limited still, however. There is no way he'd be able to hold up the hind feet long enough for the glue to set which is why we just did the fronts. Oh and he was on bute. It was touch and go for the front feet, but he did it. So now he has some support on the front feet while I try to harden his soles. If it doesn't work he'll get shoes back on the fronts. She said he would have to stand on three legs in less time to shoe than it does to glue. You can see his fetlocks are once again very puffy.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 12:41 pm:

Aileen improvement is definitely being made in his hoof form...especially the hinds, while he may be puffy, they don't appear near as DrOpped. His toe really has improved in the rears...GOOD job. It sounds as if he is slowly improving or at least more comfortable. You can't do much more than that. Changes happen very slowly so he may improve a little more, one can hope anyway

His fronts, especially the left appears to have a dish present, with more of a long toe run under heel. Keep at it, it all takes time. Was he better after the glue ons?
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 12:56 pm:

Oh I'm glad you think so! I feel his hind heels have stood up, but I have requested him to please grow more straight down! lol

Yes, the dip was much worse before she worked on him. His left front is the long toe devil! He is much better, walking around with confidence again, downhill/uphill/flat just good! :-)

I won't be able to do anything with his front feet though for the next six weeks. She's coming back out on the 17th to most likely trim and reapply the glue.

Thanks Diane!
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Friday, Oct 1, 2010 - 10:58 pm:

Well, I haven't posted because I haven't wanted to jinx it! so... phtu phtu phtu!

Had steel shoes put on the end of July... just on the front feet. The glueons kept coming half off so he was walking with glue on only one side of his hoof. He's been trotting and cantering for the last month... sound... daily in turnout ... today was the first time I did not see him trot or canter but a pretty big weather change is coming by tomorrow so I'm chalking that up to arthritis.

He still goes down in the pasterns, not horizontal but close. After walking for about 10 minutes he doesn't SEEM to go down as far. But the fact that he feels good enough to run around just makes me feel great :-) He looks good, expression is just happy! New winter coat is soft and plushy, will get pictures tomorrow, down to 1156 pounds.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 8:27 am:

Good to hear Aileen Look forward to Brave's skinny pics
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Oct 2, 2010 - 9:52 pm:

God luck Aileen. Keep us informed.

All best wishes!
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Oct 9, 2010 - 8:51 pm:

Thank you... sorry for the delay... he sure doesn't look skinny, well except for his neck... lol. Oh WAIT the camera adds poundage, right????



Here's some short video, the first is when I initially brought him out, the second link is after walking a few minutes.

https://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/wishes_album/?action=view&current=101_1084.mp4

https://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/wishes_album/?action=view&current=101_1087.mp4

After looking at these frame by frame, I'm skeptical about what I wrote last week. I would love some input on what you all think. He's due to be shod soon, his front toes are long. I can't wait until the ground softens and I can pull his shoes so I can trim him in between.

Dr. O, if he is moving happily (moves out at walk, trot and canter) can I assume I'm doing the right things here, even though he's still going down? Should I stop riding him at a walk for 20 minutes a few times a week? He's happy about it, reaches eagerly for the bit and I'm told has a nice relaxed expression when I'm riding, but he is a workaholic and I don't want to overdo it.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Oct 10, 2010 - 8:02 pm:

Hi Aileen, he is still a bit ummm chunky. It does appear his LR fetlock does go down a bit more than normal. Getting more weight off him would help.

If he is happy being ridden at the walk I would continue, horses have a way of telling you when something is bothering them. My mares fetlock in back are quite a bit like Braves and she seems to manage just fine even with our big hills. Keeping her weight down helps immensely.
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Oct 10, 2010 - 11:58 pm:

Thank you Diane :-)

He does look chunky... He has no fat pockets, I can feel his ribs easily but not see them. Should I be able to see his ribs? oh and don't laugh... lol ... but his sheath has hair growing on it. It's been a long time since I've seen that! His girth now goes past the saddle pad, just below the actual saddle on both sides. I need a shorter girth.

I do think that because he's due to be shod it's hindering him a bit. I haven't been able to get his toe down to where it should be, I have to call the farrier to see when he's scheduled next...Hopefully this week. His front toes really are long.

I did ride him today and he was just perfect. four steps of leg yield each way and some shoulder fore, the rest just walking. He's always happier after our little rides. Plus it will help with the weight and get his back up, it's starting to sag a bit.

Thank you :-)
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2010 - 6:47 am:

They are all different in how they carry their weight I guess, Flash looks like she has a fat gut, but I can see her ribs, as long as she has a good appetite I like to be able to slightly see their ribs, especially if they have leg or hoof problems and all 3 of mine do!

Glad Brave is doing well
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Monday, Oct 11, 2010 - 11:13 pm:

Yes, you're right, back on the diet he goes... poor pony... lol He was almost getting real horse rations, not pony rations.

Thanks Diane :-)
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 23, 2011 - 4:32 pm:

Hi All,

Just an update, he has some spring fat on him, but is sound walk trot canter.... for him.

Short video...

https://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/wishes_album/Videos/?action=view&current= 2011-05-22_08-46-41_312.mp4

Dr. O, for him it's been all about the feet. His sesamoids are still DrOpped, but he has gotten better, not worse as far as how far down his pasterns go.

Vet has approved us to start trotting 5 minutes on the straight for a time and see if he holds up. So we will be working our way up and get him back in some sort of shape.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 6:58 am:

Good news, Aileen. I hope he continues to improve.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 2:38 pm:

Hello Aileen,
I am glad to hear he is doing better. Do you have his toes backed and rolled as far as is practical? While I really like the hind feet in the June images above the fronts appear to still be a bit long in the toe with a touch of dishin in the toe wall.
DrO
Member:
sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 4:32 pm:

Thank you Fran :-)

Thank you Dr. O,

His hind heels have actually gotten much better and he is backed and rolled very well. That has been extremely key. The dish you see has actually gotten a bit worse with the harder ground. I will try to get some pictures this weekend.

He's now trimmed every other week with tweaks in between by me. I will be attempting to keep him bare all around, but odds are good that he will need front shoes again for the few months of summer with hard ground.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2011 - 8:19 am:

Glad to see this improvement!
Member:
frances

Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2011 - 3:32 pm:

He looks a lot better Aileen. Well done!
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