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Discussion on Sunflower Seeds Rather than Psillium for sand in the Gut?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 8:06 am:
Hi Everybody.
My vet was out 2 weeks ago for spring check up and shots. I always have him do a fecal in the spring and fall and this time, there was a substantial amount of sand in Sparkles stool sample and some sand in the sample of one of the other mares.
All horses have hay in front of them just about 24/7, are turned out 24/7 except in bad weather and the pastures are a mix of sand and clay, but they are good pastures that hold up quite well even during late summer. Horses are fed their feed out of containers, but of course, hoover up any spilled pellets off the ground.
Anyway, I know that Sand Clear is not proven effective, but I did pick some up. The Barn Owner did some research and found something on whole sunflowerseeds being effective in helping clear sand so she bought a huge bag. Supposedly the roughage of the seeds works somewhat like psillium is supposed to, and the fats in the seeds supposedly bind with the sand and help it pass.
I'm a tad dubious and more concerned with the added calories my somewhat easy keeper is going to get, even as I up her work as we head into show season.
Anybody hear of using sunflower seeds to help clear sand? Can anyone think of any harm that may come of this other than the potential weight gain, which I will monitor closely. My mare is a hard working horse and I would hate to cut back on a balanced feed to accomodate the calories of the seeds, unless there is a benefit to do so.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
Fran
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 9:25 am:
Hello Fran,
I do not know of any evidence that sunflower seeds are more beneficial for clearing sand than regular feeding but don't know of a contraindication for feeding them.
DrO
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 10:30 am:
Thank you, DrO. I'm not sure where the BO found the info - I could find nothing.
We're gonna give it a try and check for sand again after a month to see if there is any less in the fecals. In the meantime, I will watch weight and performance. I suspect we will have a bunch of slightly chubby, very shiny horses at the end of the month, but with sand still in their guts...and sunflowers sprouting all over the pastures.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 5:23 pm:
I have known of whole flax seed being suggested for this purpose, Fran.
Ample hay is very important.
Living on a sand hill, I do regular psyllium one week monthly and also give feed containing probiotics.
Some believe that the probiotics enhances the sand removal process when added to the psyllium and there is a newer sand removal product that has that kind of a formula.
If there is extra sand showing up in the stools, my Vets have suggested doing longer than the one week treatment by a few extra days.
I have monitored the amount of sand exiting with the manure and it does seem to increase over the course of the treatment though none of the remedies have been scientifically proven.
Horses die because of sand ingestion every year in the area where I live.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 7:29 am:
Thanks, Vicki. The horses get all the hay they want to eat, although with spring grass, they tend to ignore it much of the time. Sunday morning, I found one of the older mares sound asleep on her side using an untouched flake of hay as her pillow.
My vet suggested psyllium (Sand Clear) for a full month, then moving on to 1wk/month after that. But as you know, it has not been proven effective. The BO knows that as well, thus did her own research and came up with the sunflower seeds.
I'm not sure why probiotics would help with sand removal...logically it doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps I'm missing something. Do you know what the thought process is behind that belief?
The risk to Sparkles health, and that of the other horses, is exactly why I'm concerned and wondering if this is going to work.
I'll report back after the month on sunflowerseeds and the fecal re-check and let everyone know whether or not there was a reduction in sand.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 7:47 am:
Hi Fran! I feed black oil sunflower seeds (the kind for birds) to all of my horses. The adults get 1/2 cup twice a day. I originally started feeding it years ago after finding several articles about the fiber from the shells and the oils from the seeds being beneficial. Now, whether or not it helps clear sand I don't know but I'll be very interested to hear your results!
Since beginning to feed the seeds I've not had a problem with overweight horses, unfortunately, my horses don't get ridden much. Of course, they only eat what I feed them since we don't have pasture. 
Good luck! Can't wait to hear what you find out.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 9:00 pm:
Fran,
I believe the thinking behind the probiotics is that they encourage better digestion -- also the theory behind the psyllium, or probably any other supposed sand remedy.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 12:58 am:
Hi Fran,
I just spent the past few hours researching sunflower seeds. Here is what I came up with.
Only use Black Oil Sunflower Seeds (BOSS). Any other type is toxic to horses.
Be careful that you don't unbalance the Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids. Sunflower seeds have more Omega 6. Horses need more Omega 3 than 6. Flax seed was offered as a better alternative because it has more healthful benefits including being an anti-inflamatory and an immune booster plus its shiny coat benefit and contains more Omega 3 than sunflower seeds.
Now for some personal experience. I am not sure if any of you have seen Sandclear if it is wet. I have because I was using it on a mare that was loaded with sand. Out of habit, I always wet down her feed, but never looked in the feed tub after mixing it. Not sure what made me look one day, but the SandClear had blown up and expanded into a jelly like mass( she ate it anyway). It was then I realized that that was what made it work and I should have been feeding it dry and letting it work as it went through her digestive system, scraping the sand out as it went. Anyway, it reminded me of the flaxseed after cooking it where it gets all jelly like. I never did feed flaxseed dry.
I could just picture this ball of goo working its way through and picking up the sand along the way, almost like silly putty.
I think, I'll try the cooked flaxseed again, I get nervous about sand too and my colt ( although he has been better lately) and gets fed on a mat, still flings his food onto the dirt and eats it, just to annoy me.
A number of years ago, I did a search for sand colic treatments and found one by an Australian, John O'Leary. It used Fresh Honey, milk, and cream and was heated so it mixed well and then used as a drench warm. The first time I did it, I used a dose syringe, I got more on me than the horse got. The second time, I did it, I got the vet to dose her (and yes, he thought I was nuts). I do think it worked as the amount of sand was reduced, but it was way too much trouble to deal with. If I try it again I think I'll train them to drink it out of a bucket or try mixing it with their feed.
What we do for and to our horses, oh my!
Rachelle
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 7:24 am:
Thanks so much Sara for sharing your experience with the SF seeds (BTW, no baby pix this year??)
Vicki...hmmm...probiotics encourage a healthy environment for the good bacteria and psyllium would increase the amount of fiber in the digestive system. So while they are both good for digestion, they don't work in the same way so I'm still having trouble with the theory that probiotics would help clear sand. But I do appreciate the info.
Rachelle, now you have me freaked out about what kind of SF seeds are getting fed to the horses! I don't know if they are BOSS or not. Will have to check with the BO and hope that they are. She's no fool, but I have no idea where she found the info. If they aren't, I wonder how long it would take to show signs of toxicity in the horses. Given the antics I got when trying to catch my mare last night, she and her little group of pals are feeling just fine. They raced circles around me for nearly 30 minutes last night and just when she would settle and stand for haltering, one of the other 3 would squeal, rear or buck and start them all up again. It was so silly that 2 cars pulled over near the front fenceline and watched the spectacle
Didn't know about balancing the Omega's either, so will discuss with BO. Sounds like flax would be the better experimental alternative.
*sigh* nothing is EVER cut and dry with these creatures, is it??
Thanks again!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 7:40 am:
Rachelle's right that flax is probably better but, for me, not by enough to go to the trouble. It's more difficult to find, more expensive, and can be left in the feed bucket by the horse if fed whole.
The SFS bag should say "Black Oil" right on it. "Most" sun flowers sold in feed stores are black oil so my fingers are crossed for you. I can't speak to how long it would take to cause toxicity if they're not BOSS but my guess is that if you've only been feeding a cup a day for the last few days that you're probably okay at this point.
About your other question. I'm not speaking of that subject until it happens. Trying not to jinx anything this year! 
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 10:19 am:
It's been over a month since I posted and since I had the vet out on Friday to check an injury, I had him do a fecal to see how we did.
He just left a message and said that there was "a little" sand, about the same amount from last summer. If you remember, in my initial post, they had said there was a "substantial amount" of sand. The vet couldn't find the report from a month ago, but was going to dig it up so he could have a better comparison.
So, it appears that the concoction of BOSS, Sand Clear and bran may have worked at least partially to help clear some sand from Sparkles colon.
However, she has put on a bit of weight. Now in all fairness, my work schedule prior to the injury was preventing me from riding quite as much as I normally do so there was a combination of factors here that contributed to my big girl getting even bigger - slightly less work, spring grass and the added calories of BOSS. She has developed a bit of a gutter butt and her current lay up is not going to help. I did buy a grazing muzzle and it caused a bit of a hissy fit. I will try to help her figure it out again tonight, but I don't want her agravation with the muzzle to cause her to pace or tear around and prevent healing in the injured leg
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - 7:14 pm:
You must remember horses clear sand without treatment, quite a bit in fact. Also of importance is that I have never heard simple one time sand tests can quantify the amount of sand in the belly. As a result I am uncertain the conclusions you have reached are valid.
DrO
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 8:34 am:
What is a "little" sand in a horse's intestine. My vet was telling me about one "chubby" mare that they got over three - five gallon buckets of sand out of. I use Sand Clear every month for a week. I have to assume that there are smarter people than me using this product. I do not fool around with other things - Sand Clear is made for removing sand from the guts of our beloved horses. A neighbor decided it wasn't worth the money (maybe it's not), but her very favorite horse died of sand colic a few weeks ago. She refused to use Sand Clear. She has since changed her mind with her other horses.
It's such a brutal way to die. It's so unnecessary. And I need to at least try to do what vets and other experts are in favor of. I, too, am in Florida, and we have, or course, a much higher incidence of sand colic - being yards from the beaches and the ocean.
You keep saying that Sand Clear hasn't been proven to work. I guess that bothers me - and my horse may die from sand colic - but I need to at least try to do the right thing....and hope it is the right thing. Maybe another product specifically designed to remove sand would work for you - I am not - in any way - trying to upset anyone - ....if we could see their insides, we wouldn't worry. But, I do not want to see you digress into another area without keeping your main objective right under your nose.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 8:44 am:
Actually Dr O, I'm not certain the conclusions are valid either! That's why my post is peppered with words like "it appears to" and "may have"...but I had promised to report back and so I did.
But that said, except for her current lay up, the conditions in which this horse lives do not change. Given that we find sand in her colin each spring (which is odd, given the amount of snow we get in the winter), treat with something (last year, just the Sand Clear) and then get a clean fecal when she gets her fall shots, well, I guess once again I'd rather err on the side of caution and treat in the hope that it helps, even if just a little.
And when I questioned my vet about the efficacy of the Sand Clear, he agreed that clinicals don't show much in the way of recommending it. But he thinks he sees a difference in his patients and gives it to his own horses.
It's not expensive, does no harm, and makes ME feel better that I'm doing what I can...
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 1:18 pm:
dustylin, my mare IS getting Sand Clear. Believe me, I take no chances with her health. But I am one that prefers to go with what a few good, well done clinicals indicate, and it's my understanding that all clinicals show that Sand Clear is not effective in removing sand from a horses gut. So in this particular area, I am left with few alternatives and in this particular case I am using it in the hopes that it helps.
But you must remember, just because a product says it will do something, does not mean that it will. Like many human OTC products (particularly herbs and vitamins) there's little or no government oversight that ensures a product does as claimed and as long as the claims are not completely outrageous, a manufacturer can pretty much say what they want. There are tons of products that we, in the hopes of helping our horses, purchase but do absolutely nothing to help. These things end up being a waste of money. And the bigger danger is when someone spends the money on these types of products and then is tight for funds when they really need it for a big problem.
I have not lost sight of the issue here. I too live in a high sand area. But my mare is boarded, at a very good facility, that has very good management practices. There's little else I can do concerning the sand, other than the Sand Clear and the anecdoctal evidence of BOSS...neither which will harm her so I'm doing it, despite what my brain tells me, which is there is no proof that either truly works.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 2:33 pm:
I too routinely do the Sand Clear for a week each month and through examining fecal samples believe that I see increased sand passing out through the horses' manure during the week that it is being administered.
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 7:03 pm:
I believe Sand Clear is good - My horses eat free hay that they toss every where - we live on Decomposed Granite - or Sand.
every where - One week a month is the way to go.....
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 2010 - 10:52 pm:
In 1998, I moved my horses to the Jersey shore area. Sand, sand, sand. I moved them from North Jersey...mountains, mountains, rock, rock, rock.
Within 6 months, my mare ( 18 at the time ) came down with a bad sand colic. I'd never heard of it....didn't know what it was... Luckily, the vets down here knew well what they were dealing with. Things turned out all right. Never had another problem. We were told to add psyllium the first week of every month. BUT, on our own, we rubber matted a HUGE area under the outdoor hay feeders ( 12 mats under each feeder and blew the sand off them AM and PM with the leaf blower ), and dug out the sand/dirt floors in the stalls and filled them with gravel, topped with screenings and finished off with rubber mats. What worked the best?? I haven't a clue, but I continue with all methods to this day, and have never had another sand colic. I HAVE had "colic" type pain due to ulcers, and "colic" behaviour linked to horrendous ovulation. But the sand issue has never reared it's ugly head again.
Is it the psyllium.....or is it the preventative measures we took?? I don't know....but I continue to employ both. I know that when I was in North Jersey, I never heard of sand colic. Here in South Jersey ( by the shore )....it's old hat. For the life of me, I can't understand why there is a "sand colic". In North Jersey, I had rocks and DIRT. The horses nosed around in it all the time....I NEVER had a colic. As I said, within 6 months of moving to a sandy area, my mare was packed with sand....WHY? I mean, WHY NOT DIRT COLIC up in North Jersey? She had 18 years of snorkeling in the dirt paddocks there. There is definitely something about sand that requires intensive concentration on any preventatives you can think of.
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