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Discussion on Poultice or liniment??
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 10:46 am:
Dr.O. I am still dealing with Flashes Re-bow and a little confused. I had been poulticing with ice tight and pressure wrapping which helped a little. The swelling remained tho...with no heat.
Last week I decided to try a liniment since there really has been no heat to speak of. I have tried thera flex before with no results really, and the only other liniment available at the farm store was Bigeloil....
Ingredients
Product Description
Bigeloil is an excellent rubbing application for sore knees, bucked shins, strained and wrenched tendons and other temporary injuries of this type. As an antiseptic Begeloil is useful in the field of superficial irritations and minor injuries to the skin. Diluted with water Bigeloil makes a refreshing brace or body wash for tired over heated animals. Active ingredients include thymol, menthol, methyl salicylate, capsicum, salicylic acid 0.65%, oils of juniper and pine and alcohol 75%. 16 oz. or 32 oz
I have not been wrapping it since using the liniment and I believe there IS improvement in the swelling.
Where my confusion lies....
Flash is about 2.5 months from when the re-bow occurred. While she has improved it is slow going this time...I know 2.5 months isn't much in the scheme of a re-bowed tendon, but if she is going to be able to handle the winter I have to get her sound as plausible by then.
I have read the articles concerning bowed tendons and poultices and liniments..
Question... Since there is no heat is a liniment more appropriate at this point than a poultice?
Are poultices mainly for drawing heat out and liniments for heat therapy more so. Should something like this be wrapped?? With the liniment it can not be wrapped.. I sprayed some on my knee and wrapped it and it burns
 without a wrap it does a nice job of relieving rain... I thought!
any insight as to what I should be doing would be appreciated
Thanks
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 12:06 pm:
Diane,
There are ingredients in the Bigeloil that would burn, like the alcohol. I use Bigeloil in my bath water as a brace on really hot days, but I rarely use it on legs. However, if that is the only thing you can get, I would cut it with water, 1/2 and 1/2.
On my race horses, I use a product called Victory Lane. I used to buy it from the guy who made it, now I buy it from Big Dees. In fact I just bought a pint this week, I also cut that 1/2 and 1/2 with water more from an economical point of view then a therapeutic perspective.
I have no idea what's in it, but I have never had a problem with it even on sensitive horses. One of the girls that used to work for me swore by it. It is not an alcohol based product, and although its meant to be used as a sweat( which might be good for Flash). I do not use it like that. I hose my horses' legs with cold water after they are worked and I do them up right after with it. It is meant to be put on wet legs, you can use it with or without bandages.
I have also, had good luck with plain old witch hazel because its an astringent and acts like a tightener.
I was wondering how the old girl was doing.
Rachelle
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 12:13 pm:
I found this when I googled "Victory Lane Horse liniment ingredients".
active ingredients, ammonium alum, dimethyl sulfoxide, goose oil, mineral oil, nitrofurazone and papain; the liniment may be topically applied to the animal such as for example on the horse's legs.
I know old time trainers used to use Alum quite a bit for post race leg tighteners. Not sure if the product "Quik" is still on the market, but that is made with Alum if I remember correctly and was marketed as a leg tightener as well.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 12:53 pm:
Thanks Rachelle . I did try the witch Hazel...2 bottles worth before I got the Bigeloil, it didn't seem to do squat.
I have been cold hosing her leg then applying the Bigeloil while it was still wet. If I put it on straight she does seem like it irritates her a bit at first... she paws and picks her leg up and down for a few minutes, then gets over it. I only put it on at night, it also seems to do a much better job when put on straight without cutting it with water, she hasn't developed any irritations yet from it.
How do you determine if a liniment or a poultice is the best choice??? I have never quite figured that out!
Flash is improving SLOWLY, She is back in the yard pen which seems to agree with her most. If I keep her locked in she looks way worse, if I leave her in the pasture she seems way worse...so the yard it is She looks pretty good on the flat, inclines bring on the limp, so trying to avoid them best as possible.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 1:49 pm:
It is hard to get swelling out of the lower leg once it is there.
Especially when the horse is not moving around too much.
When Lance had leg swelling for so many long weeks I used to put ice wraps on several times daily and eventually began to follow an ice wrap with the rub of Witch Hazel, which was what really helped him get over the hump.
Toward the end of his ordeal I rubbed the swollen areas twice daily with the Witch Hazel, even if I did not ice.
Twice a day works more than twice as good as once.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 2:30 pm:
Diane,
Gem's had swelling in her lower hind leg for almost 3 months. She had heat at first, but even then never acted lame on it that I could tell.
I've been using Sore No More Cooling Clay Poultice. It feels cool going on, and then hardens a bit to firm up the area. It's natural clay and witch hazel plus I think arnica.
I was gone the first week it happened, and I think all my critter sitter did was gave her Bute once a day for about 3 days. Gem is horrible on stall rest, so she's been out the whole time. By the time I got to doctor her, the heat was less so I alternated with the Clay and used Thermaflex with DMSO put on also to get the stuff into the leg. DMSO heats up, the clay cools.
The only thing I don't like about the clay is it has to be washed off before putting SMB's on; so a little more hosing off of her legs, but not really a big deal. Hose before and after working her can't hurt. Been doing light walk trot work, maybe Flash would benefit from some more exercise?
The SNOMore is $14.99 at horse.com, and it lasts a long time!
Good luck!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 2:34 pm:
https://www.sorenomore.net/sorenomore_products-poultice.htm
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 3:13 pm:
Angie I used SNM before on Flash and I liked it, it did seem to help her, the farm store used to carry it in the gel form, I thought maybe they had discontinued it or something.
I may order some of that, but still the question that has always been in my head continues, does it make a difference if you use a poultice OR a liniment at certain stages of an injury???
Now that the yard pen is back up she gets to move around more at a controllable rate, it is flat, and the footing semi-soft for her compensation hoof soreness in the RF...sigh. Since she is moving more and not on a hill, the edema is definitely coming down. She seems to be weighting her heel all the time now, at least whenever I look at her. She also willingly gives me both hooves now, before it was a battle...guess that's some sort of improvement
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 3:31 pm:
According to my vet it makes a difference and you should use cooling stuff (e.g. clay poultices) on hot newly-injured legs, and heating stuff (e.g. liniments) once they become cool again. Presumably once you've got the inflammation under control with the poultice, you then want to stimulate a certain amount of circulation hence the liniment.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 3:46 pm:
Diane,
Years ago my vet told me to use a poultice with newspaper or pieces of a brown bag on it followed with a standing wrap for swelling with heat, then poultice with saran wrap over it followed with a standing wrap once the heat is gone. The paper promotes the cooling effect and hardens, the saran wrap provides the same therapeutic effect but provides heat and it doesn't harden.
Sorry your girl is hurting again 
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 5:52 pm:
What LL said has been my experience. The wrapping or icing earlier with the liniment rub (and be sure to massage it in thoroughly and take some time rubbing as that provides a good part of the benefit) to finally remove remaining edema. Improving the circulation is important to accomplish this.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 7:34 pm:
I guess I will stay with the Bigeloils then, it seems to be helping. I kind of gathered from the articles it was like LL said. In a way it would seem to make sense that a poultice could maybe pull out swelling too.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 8:31 pm:
Diane, I prefer controlling lower leg edema with poultices than liniments but these are not cures for the problems just ways to deal with ongoing problems and keep them from getting worse.
DrO.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 20, 2010 - 9:27 pm:
Thanks Dr.O. do you mind explaining why you prefer a poultice. I kind of gathered from the articles that heat therapy would be best, but I wasn't sure and that's why I asked. I know they aren't going to cure the problem, just trying to keep it under control as you said
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 6:45 am:
Experience has shown me it works better for chronic lower leg edema.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 8:54 am:
I would think the key thing here with edema would be to alternate hot & cold to increase circulation; whatever methods work for that would be o.k.?? As long as you ended with something that was tightening and cooling?
Ya know Diane, you seem post questions that answer questions I have before I even think to post them, lol!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2010 - 5:57 am:
Angie, when it comes to passive edema of the lower leg I think successful treatment has more to do with the very even pressure of a good poultice (see the article for more on this).
Even in something as apparently simple as thermal therapy there is controversy over the rebound effects of such treatment. This has led to the more recent recommendation of altering temps as you outline but we really don't know if this is any better. Whether topicals or thermal treatment will work for a particular horse is often a trial and error affair but when all else fails a poultice will work.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2010 - 1:47 pm:
DrO,
Thank you. I understand what you saying.
Diane, I have noticed that if I put the SMB's on any horse with leg puffiness, work them, then hose off the leg well with cool water, apply the SNM, I end up with a tighter looking leg. Willow, who is 21, has some edema in her lower legs at times and this works with her. So it would seem I am doing what DrO says above, the pressure coming first from the SMB's, then cooling the leg, and applying the poultice. The controversy being if the heating up first followed by cooling is of any benefit, but if I am to work a horse with some question of 100% healthy tendons/ligaments, I think the SMB's are needed for that period of time.
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