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Discussion on Advice needed
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 8:46 am:
Dr. O,
I have a 19 year old IR/Cushing's gelding who had a mild bout of laminitis in early April.(no rotation) He seemed to stabilize, and was doing OK, though he would be always be very tender after I had trimmed him. The frogs were in bad shape, so I treated them with betadine as per HA . These have improved, but he is still pretty sore and seems worse than he was in April. I put hoof testers on him yesterday, and he is sore in both feet in the sole area in front of the frog apex. I realize this is where P3 is located. I have scheduled an appointment for my vet to come out, but I have the following questions:
1. Could this sole soreness be due to abscesses or sole sensitivity rather than another laminitis event? I am treating it as if he is having another laminitis event, but the laminitis in April was not nearly as bad as the pain he is now experiencing.
2. He has been BF for 2 years, and has still not attained any sole concavity. I realize this is also a problem. I was thinking about taking him to an Equine clinic for some advice on this flat sole and the continuing lameness. I live in Illinois - is there any clinic that you could recommend to me in the Midwest area that treats barefoot horses? I have gone to a few websites, but they all talk about shoeing laminitic horses. I do not have a farrier, so I can't do shoes, and I really do believe that BF horses can recover from laminitis.
3. Is it OK to transport a horse with laminitis?
Thanks for your advice,
Nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 10:35 pm:
Nancy, Hank had as much if not more trouble with lameness due to thin tender soles, then the laminitis itself. FME these flat footed types are very hard to keep barefoot, unless your trim is nearly perfect..for them. I have to leave a little more wall on Hank so he is not on his soles with a very good bevel...to help with flaring. Right now I am rockering his toe a bit also. He doesn't have rock crushers but we are managing so far.
With Hank when he got this sole sore, I had to boot and pad him or keep him on very soft ground, or he would be almost immobilized, no exercise. He would get better then the whole cycle would start again after he was trimmed... not fun.
Can you post pics of his hooves? maybe they need some tweaking or even to be left alone for awhile.
Good Luck
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 12:10 am:
Diane, thanks for your observations about this! I know it is more difficult this time of year when the ground is really hard for them to be BF.
Pix of the front feet at:
https://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz129/spearhead10000/June232010/
Any observations/input will be gladly received. It helps alot when I know there are other people struggling with the same issues lol!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 7:16 am:
Nancy I know thin soled Hank would be uncomfortable in the toe area with that trim, while it looks WAY better than my trim jobs Hank would be sore if his sole was that close to the ground, maybe even on the ground???
What helped with him was squaring the toe and leaving the toe pillars for weight bearing.
Hopefully Dr.O. and others that know more can help you.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 9:41 am:
Oh, yeah, his sole is on the ground.
But there's our problem - how to relieve the peripheral loading of the walls, which I need to do to get the hoof wall from pulling the laminae apart?
So
then he's dumped on his sole.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 11:00 am:
Nancy,
I am no expert but I will try to mark up a few pics because some things jumped out at me right away.
Hmmm...I can't open it in paint after I saved 3 of the pictures. Can you email them to me at fancy4j@gmail.com? Or upload them on here? Pictures 2, 3, 4, and 5.
I can try and describe a few things without pictures to mark up. First of all, there is not enough vertical toe HEIGHT so do NOT take any more off the toe from underneath.
The bars are too long and need work.
The highest parts of the hoof when looking from heel to toe, are the quarters. Which are being pushed out by the bars not being addressed correctly.
If you look at the coronet band, see how uneven it is? Showing uneven trimming.
Everyone seems to think the sole is thin, horses are walking gingerly because they are on their sole, etc. It seems to me everytime I read about someone's horse being tender; I see FLARES at the quarters, BARS not done correctly, HEEL point being in the wrong spot because the quarters are left to be weight bearing.
I'd bet money right now that if you took those quarters down, and took off some bar, that your horse would move off soundly.
If you lower the quarters, he will land on his heel first, which will do a few things: the coffin bone will be more level, and the back of the frog will be stimulated and firm up too.
Than just lightly bevel all around. Not too much on the toe.
Just my thoughts.
As always, remember pictures are 2D, and things may look different seeing the actual hoof.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 4:19 pm:
Angie, I will try to upload the pix here, if not I will email then to you.
First of all, thanks for taking your time to help me.
Secondly, I should have noted that this was NOT right after a trim, that it has been 3 weeks since he was trimmed last, and I was wanting advice BEFORE I trimmed him again. So it appears to you (and others) that I have not trimmed off enough bar and the quarters are too long. I agree with your assessment 100%. However, the bars were trimmed to sole level Jun 3rd, and the quarters were shortened then as well. I have shortened (scooped) the quarters at least once since then, and yet they are now too long in these photos. This is my quandary - I shorten the bars and the quarters regularly, but in week, it looks as if I have never trimmed them - ever. Since he has been so lame, I wanted to just leave him alone for a week, to see if he got better or worse. SO - now his bars and heels and quarters are too long since I didn't keep up my regular weekly mini-trim.
Here's my other problem - the last time I took back/down his heels to where they "should be", along with trimming the bars and the quarters, he was immobile for 2 weeks afterwards (this was in May). So now I am gun shy that his feet are so weak behind, that taking the heel down causes pain, but having the heels TOO HIGH causes other pain/problems. So, I have left his heels slightly longer since May, but I am unhappy with that result as well.
I also have never taken off any toe underneath in the two years that I have trimmed him myself. NEVER - he wears them himself. I only take the toe back from up above. So if there is no vertical height at the toe, it's probably due to a toe first landing. (heels sore? - I don't know)
Unfortunately, you will lose your bet. After I read your post, I went to the barn and took his bars down and took the quarters down - and nothing was changed at all. And it was a heck of a time getting him to even let me handle his feet to do that little bit of work.
Right now I am praying that it is an abscess in his LF. He seems to be favoring that one slightly more than the other.
I really want to thank you for your input, and keep throwing stuff out there for me....
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 4:29 pm:
I will tend to disagree with Angie just a little bit, in the fact the the thin, flat soled beast does exist and they get painful VERY easily, especially if they have had laminitis recently.
From the pictures Nancy I think you are taking too much vertical height also, at this point I would just leave him alone and put him in some boots with pads OR keep him on VERY soft bedding. Give him a gram of bute a day for a couple days (but don't let him out while on bute)
Hank CAN NOT be trimmed (rasped) from the top, or the nippers used on him.
I don't know if you followed my hoof Critique threads, but the part labeled the"farriers Trim" reminds me a lot of your horse if you care to take a look. I also notice you have a cracked hoof at the toe...do you have a blob???
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 4:34 pm:
What do you mean by a Blob? lol!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 4:39 pm:
Hello nancy,
Taking your questions in order:
1) Yes this could be solar bruising but may be related to the founder if there is rotation in P3 as this puts extra pressure in the area you are getting reactions to the testers. Abscesses do not tend to present as bilateral mild to moderate lameness.
2) No I am not familiar with what you might have available locally...have you considered the veterinary school at the Uni. of Illinois? Most colleges have a veterinary farrier team to work out hoof problems. Consider that the flat soles may be related to P3 rotation.
3) It is best not to.
A good article for you to review concerning some of my conjectures would be HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 5:07 pm:
O.k., win some loose some.  It may be something else of course, or he may surprise you yet and move better tomorrow!
I agree thin soled horses exist, and it causes lameness. I guess that came across wrong huh?
If he is wearing his toe so fast, then he may be landing toe first yet?
As for those pesky bars, man o man have I been through the wringer trying to understand why I also seem to keep trimming them, and they keep coming back at a rate that seems faster then the rest of the hoof. IF I am saying this correctly, when the bars are trimmed right, they will not keep "popping back" so fast. I will have to find an email, or some notes as to WHY, but I think it's related to the amount of stimulation the bars are getting.
But everything else has to be in right too; heel first landing, scooped quarters, and a nice bevel.
If you can post a new picture of what you have done today, maybe someone will see something.
If he had no rotation, then I am thinking this may be just trimming issues, unless it's an abscess of course. Since April is long enough for him to be sound with a good trim I would think?
I'd say it's just my 2 cents worth, but I did loose the bet, lol!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 7:20 pm:
From the looks of his hooves it appears he may have a little rotation from the dish in his hoof and the stretched WL at the toe. You can remove too much toe rasping from the top, that is waht my farrier did and why Hank was ALWAYS very sore after a trim...your toe area appears to be very much like my farrier did Hank.. while for most horses probably wouldn't notice the difference, Sam doesn't. It brings Hank to his Knees...
I would highly recommend you read that thread...lots of good ideas on how to trim these types of hooves.
If you care to
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/352185.html
And the one about the blob and associated crack, I HAVE finally eliminated the crack.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/351179.html
And one thing Rachelle really tried to pound into my head and finally Guy brought home the "spectrum of usability". While Hanks hoof is FAR from perfect, he is meeting my spectrum of usability. I feel there is no such thing as a perfect hoof mold, you have to go with what works for THAT horse, if it isn't working change it.
There is more then "one way to skin a cat" we have all figured that out FINALLY
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 7:40 am:
Diane, I read the thread and I want to understand it better.
My problem is that I have gotten so much varying advice on trimming that now I feel as if I don't know what to do for the next step. I never used to take as much from the top, but then I took him to a trimmer and this is what she taught me to do, when I saw her last November. This could explain why he was sound for the one year I trimmed him myself, and now he is lamer. I used to trim him myself mostly from the bottom, but she said to never do that.
I agree, his feet do look like your horse Hank, and I am game to learn more.
But I am not sure of exactly what I need to do for my horse. I am not sure where I need to take off more/less/whatever.
Thanks,
Nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 9:51 am:
"But there's our problem - how to relieve the peripheral loading of the walls, which I need to do to get the hoof wall from pulling the laminae apart?"
I have struggled with the same issues and there seems to be some basic rules that always apply:
The bars must be done correctly to stop from pushing the wall out at the quarters, and pushing the toe forward which also causes flaring. Those bars I see are laid over.
The heel must be done correctly to stop toe first landings.
Beveling must be done all around to stop the outer wall from loading.
If you are getting flares (that growth at the quarters is 3 weeks, right?)and see bar growth that quickly, your horse is not weighting his heels enough IMO. It's hard to explain, hard to grasp, but you must move the HEEL POINT back; meaning from the side you don't have weight bearing on the quarters at all. The back of the frog needs to get contact with every step.
A question: Your horse had foundered? Was it from grass or grain overload? Or mechanical? I ask because my Tango also "foundered" as in pounding DP's, hardly walking, gave me a heart attack. It was because of my hoof trimming! I kept taking off from the BOTTOM, and didn't understand how to stop the flares, under run heel synDrOme that was being caused by the bars.
It terrified me to do more at the heels and quarters...I just didn't see it. There is a difference between LOWERING a heel, and bringing the heel point back. I don't think your horse, based on the pictures, needs his HEEL LOWERED, but the bars need work, the quarters SCOOPED, and the toe from the BOTTOM left alone.
You can rasp any flare off the outer wall on the lower 1/3 of the hoof. If you lay your rasp on the hoof wall, and you see daylight from flaring, it's o.k. to dress that outer wall up by taking that off. You seem to be doing that.
If he were my horse, I would diligently work on the bars, make sure the quarters were lowered, and use an eagle eye to check for levelness especially looking down the hoof from heel to toe. Make sure the heel/bar junction is not higher than the outer wall...that was always my trouble. I would leave him in soft footing and let his toe grow some vertical height. If he isn't better within one week, I'd check again and then reevaluate what was going on.
If you have something to pad his hoof with, try that. I taped Styrofoam on Tango's hoof for the first couple of days.
You're doing a good job Nancy! I am talking minor things here to tweak! The hardest will be waiting for some toe growth and praying it isn't something else which is possible of course.
My opinions based on my experiences thus far. There are still things I think I understand but can't necessarily connect my brain & hand to do it up all prettily!
Let me see if I can find a picture.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 9:53 am:
Nancy I am such a novice myself I hate to give advice. I followed pretty much what the good people here told me on HA and some VERY good articles posted in the threads...also Dr.O.'s articles. While he doesn't go much into beveling ect, very good info also. My farrier can not bevel from the top, I don't think it is even possible... not for me anyway . If you take time to read Hanks novel there is a lot of good info in there and fairly easy to understand because I am such a beginner I needed it pounded in my head
I DO know now when the farrier comes I have him clean Hank up just a little bit from the top and when he leaves I bevel all around and the boy is having a pretty sound summer, he can't do rocks well, but I really don't care, hard ground, pavement, limestone he is 100%... MY "spectrum of usability"
BTW this is the first summer in 7 years I have been able to keep him barefoot and in ridden work, so that speaks volumes how trimming from the bottom and keeping him beveled is working... no sore soles, no bruising
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 10:19 am:
This might help. Gem constantly had flat feet, under run heels, and flares. I thought I was doing things correctly yet not getting results!
I used red marker on the hoof itself to show all the bar material. That is all laid over bar, pushing the direction the arrows show. The green circles show Heel Point, and it's too far forward. And also on her the frog is too high in the middle. The bars can be brought down to the red line and that would bring the heel point back. I see on lots of hoof pics on here where we all seem to leave the heel/bar junction higher also..me included!
Your horse does not have that much bar it appears; this is just to give you an idea.
Picture number 2 will show what I did, and MY helper told me it was still not enough. (I was doing this in steps, taking pics, emailing them to my hoof helper, and getting feedback. I don't know if I have a "done" picture as I guess I felt confident I had it right after that.)
My red line is a bit low in my top picture.
Hope something you see from someone on here helps! I know how frustrating and heart breaking trimming can be.
 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 11:37 am:
Angie if I see your pic right, on the done hoof it appears you have left the "toe pillars" in place. That was VERY important with flat footed Hank, and actually where my breakthrough came with him. It takes the pressure off the front of the toe.
Nancy that is in the Ric Redden video Dr.O. has in the 4 point trim article, that type of trim has helped Hank, while I am not very handy with a rasp, I am unloading that toe, with the help of the "toe pillars" and not nearly as aggressive as Mr. Ric, just using the concept so to speak. It gives you a squared off look, but it really worked with Hank in keeping him comfortable... at this point I am not about pretty, just functional while I try to improve his hoof form.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 2:48 pm:
Hi Guys,
Thanks for your posts - they are really great!
First of all, I went back to Pete Ramey's website, who had started me on my BF "journey" two years ago. I reviewed everything, and it suddenly clicked with me about a few things in his website, and what Diane said about beveling. Most importantly, I have changed the way I used to bevel a hoof (two years ago) during these last 6 months (I have had trouble with him for about 3 of those months) I used to do like Ramey does, and that's pretty much what was described in Diane's thread with Hank, but then I changed a few things, and basically concentrated on the bars and heels (though you would not know that from these latest pictures - LOL) But I took the toe back only from above, as I had been instructed by my hoof practitioner. And I was told to take the heels down with a knife and not the rasp, and I need to pronto return to the rasp!
Angie, the growth at the quarters in the pix is about 10 days, not longer than that, so you can see that he lays down a lot of foot, and the bars had been trimmed back to the sole (seriously) about 3 weeks prior. BUT I think I was LOWERING his heels and not bringing them BACK (which is what you suggest - bringing them back) So I think I had all sorts of bar/heel/frog issues - and then in that mess is this frog infection issue. Until this week, his frogs were really bad, so he didn't want to use his heels much at all - they have been awful since late March when it started warming up. And it may indeed be a situation - not using his heels enough - causes frogs to weaken and have thrush, which causes him not to use his back of his feet, etc etc
I think (and so does my husband) that my horse had an "event" in April precipitated by a too aggressive trim - and I think I did it to him again in May, which is why I am TERRIFIED to do it to him again. Right now I think he's lame from sole pressure AND bad frogs - so he has nowhere on his foot that he can walk. There was no rotation in April, though I know that his CB is not as high in his foot capsule as it needs to be - hence the flat foot. My vet did not really think he had laminitis at all - she thought it might be "thin soles". However, since then I have him on an IR appropriate "diet" and he has lost about 100#, plus he is on pergoglide, and that is helping him too.
What I did do was duct tape some pads on him, and he is walking heel first and is much more comfortable. I am also thinking that way I can keep his frogs out of the urine and manure in the run in. I replace the pads once a day and use Gold Bond Powder (thanks to one of Diane's threads) Once they are on, he is pretty happy, but as soon as I remove them and ask him to walk, he ain't too happy.
So - today I worked on all my other horses - they have been BF for 2 years and I have pretty much done all the work on them myself. The QH had really bad contracted feet, and now they look darn good, if I do say so myself. I concentrated on what I do with the 3 of them, the beveling, the heels, the quarters, and etc. They all used to have "bar issues", but no longer, so I think I am on the right track with them. So then I took a look at "Mr. Trouble" and observed his feet. That's all I did was look - yesterday I scooped out the quarters - and they had grown back - already! in one day!! So I figure that there are lots of mechanisms at work here to cause this kind of remodeling overnight.
I am going to study his feet a few more days, and compare them with your photos, Angie, and contemplate what you have said and see if I really do understand before I do anything. (I agree with everything you have stated - I just need to be sure that I really approach his feet properly)
I can't thank you enough for your advice. I really like the fact that no one on this site is a "know it all", as some sites have members that make you feel like you are about 1" tall, they are overzealous and think they know everything. I really appreciate your honesty and advice and I will report back after a few days. Keep your fingers crossed for him!
Thanks again!!!
nancy
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 2:58 pm:
Hey Angie !!
I studied your bar trim again and I SEE what you are saying - it's the bar side of the collateral groove (in other words - the hoof wall) that essentially is being "beveled" as the rest of the hoof wall is. It's not the bar part on the surface of the sole, but the side of the groove.
Your pictures are really clear - thanks!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 7:19 pm:
Good going, nancy!
You inspire me.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 7:20 pm:
OMG NANCY!! I wish I could give you a big hug right now! You got it girl, you got it!
"it's the bar side of the collateral groove (in other words - the hoof wall) that essentially is being "beveled" as the rest of the hoof wall is. It's not the bar part on the surface of the sole, but the side of the groove."
I have struggled for almost THREE YEARS to grasp what you just figured out in a few hours! I would kinda get it, think I was trimming those darn bars correctly, then I'd email pics to my hoof helper (in Alaska, so we never talked on the phone up until a few weeks ago) She'd tell me "I still see too much BAR Angie on your horses, it's causing flares, pulling the heel forward, pushing the toe out. If you take the bar down a bit, your hoofs would improve." Not that all 16 hoofs were in bad shape, in fact everyone is sound and moving well, but NOT PERFECT to even my eyes! (some have kept good form through all my learning or rather in spite of it)
During our 2 hour conversation, I was saying "But I can't take the bar DOWN more, it's already level with the sole." BIG PAUSE on the other end, and then at the same time, it clicked in both of our minds what SHE had been trying to tell me, and where the miscommunication had been looking at 2-D pictures all this time!
I am a bit embarrassed to admit this but that hoof above, Gem's, is very recent! In fact it was that specific picture that was the one that got the ol' light bulb to come on in my head! The red marker on the bars and the fact that was the HARD OUTER wall curved around..follow this now..hard hoof wall, turns into the bars when it curves at the "junction" there, and it PUSHES out the quarters inside the collaterol groove causing flares if not beveled as you put it so perfect.
Which you understand; just adding more for others.
Or as I also thought of it, if you put your thumb inside the col grooves, and pushed out on a very very soft hoof (and you were very very strong!)what would it do to the wall at the quarters? PUSH IT OUT, causing flares.
The reason the bars come back so quickly is because they are NOT being weighted properly; which I think is bacause they are laid over for lack of a better way to say it. If the frog is not making contact at the back of the hoof, and the bars are laid over, the bars can grow very quickly, the frog get thrushy and SOFT. The bars grow fast, and push those darn flares out in a matter of days.
The hoof above is still giving me bar quicker than I would like, but I don't expect all the changes to show up immediately. The hoof has to adapt IMO.
}
I have to add some comments about the Redden video. I have watched it several times, I can see that it "worked" on the hoof he did. He does not, IMHO, address bars, heel point, and the back of the hoof much at all if I remember correctly. No doubt if someone does rocker a toe like that, the hoof shape changes. I just happen to believe he's got it backwards: I think the bars, heel point and sometimes the frog, need to be addressed and then the toe beveled from underneath, just enough to keep the outer wall from hitting the ground first.
I am KINDA doing what he shows, but like Diane, not as much. I guess I am not a fan of "pillars" believing the WHOLE hoof; sole, wall, frogs, bars, heel bulbs, alllll are meant to have contact at a different part of the horses stride. I see it, just have no plans on going with that.
'Nways, way to go Nancy. Take your time, and be sure to post an update!
And THANK YOU for putting into words what so many of us have struggled with. I think many HA hoof trimmers will grasp "trimming the bars" now!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 7:27 pm:
I meant to add this:
"not using his heels enough - causes frogs to weaken and have thrush, which causes him not to use his back of his feet, etc etc"
If everyone who trims hoofs understood this, manufacturers of all the thrush meds would go out of business.
And the number reason for not using heels enough?
Improper bar trimming ya think? Heel point too far forward? Pain from flares at quarters due to bars pushing the wall out? And then all the wonderful inner workings of the hoof get weak? So horse lands toe first, horse get lame, etc. etc.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:11 pm:
Angie, the thanks go to YOU - your pictures were perfect for seeing what I have missed and missed with the "hoof care professional" She would say - take the bars down, and I'd say "I did!!" and she'd say "no you didn't". But her drawings weren't clear.
Anyway, tomorrow I am going to scoop out the quarters.
And that's it.
Then I will take down the bars a few days later. Easy does it!
BUT - good news is that taping those darn pads on his feet IS working, he is walking more, landing toe first, etc. It will just take time. And if he'll hang in there, I'll hang in there,.....
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:16 pm:
Also, I know why in particular MY horses frogs and cushion are weak - YEARS of bar shoes. He has a quarter crack (which is non-existent after BF) I mean like 10 years of bar shoes - so - no wonder he is sore. Poor thing.
And yet he hangs in there and pushed the other horses away from "his" hay and "his" water trough. God help him to recover!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:20 pm:
HMMM hoof discussions make my head spin LOL. Angie I don't think it is about the toe pillars, it is the way I can make thin soled, rotated Hank from landing on his sole. Your description of the bars, heels ect goes hand in hand with, the "toe pillars" or IOW unloading the dished, flared toe and the stretched WL, while building a better "heel platform" All parts of the hoof needs to be addressed of course, but as we have found out Less Is more! I am probably too conservative, but I don't want to lame Hank up either, what happened to Nancy's horse has happened to Hank time and time again for YEARS ( does tend to make you a little gun shy LOL), until You guys helped me figure out my farrier was doing a "backwards bevel"! Since that time..."the farriers trim" thread I have not had a sole sore horse, ugly, flared hoof and all. While I believe MOST horses with hard soles and concavity can tolerate a few more mistakes...the thin soled beast is not very forgiving. While we improve their hooves and hope for thicker tougher soles, and with a lot of luck a little concavity we must protect their soles at all costs or the spiral begins again, and can easily set them up for a bout of laminitis.
The bar description is GREAT, and I think your descriptions are great too, you and Rachelle and quite a few others made me see the light!(THANKFULLY). Hank is getting close to being able to handle a "normal" trim, but for now anyway I do leave the toe pillars and rocker the toe a bit to help keep him off his sole at the toe, increase breakover and tighten that WL, and it is working (so far) albeit slowly.
Good Luck Nancy, I hope you are able to get your horse comfortable. The folks on here are VERY smart and so is Dr.O. of course
If they can help fix Hanks hooves, you horse should be a breeze
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 8:54 am:
Diane, what you are saying is my goal! I have to return to what I had been able to do before - trim and not lame him! I think that the advice I had gotten from the hoof guru was just too 'unforgiving". So I am going to work on quarters, heels and bars and see where that leaves me. When it comes to the next time to trim the toes, I am going to need HELP!
Last night when I turned them out (he in his muzzle), he marched right out and started eating. I think these pads can keep him moving on those feet and that is good. BTW - HEEL first landings! So I may need to keep these pads on until the heels heal.
Nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 9:28 am:
I am going to send out a big THANK YOU to my hoof helper, Joni from Alaska, who took me under her wing and patiently took time to look at my 1000's (lol!) of pictures over the years, mark them up, take pictures of her trimming and send it to me.
And to DrO for providing a forum for us to load our own pictures, bounce ideas back & forth, and keep us straight! Without this, there would be a lot more horses in pain out there. Not to mention frustrated horse owners.
Nancy,
The 2nd picture marked above is from Joni, so I can't take credit for that one. I am just the messenger! I am glad if something I offered helped.
I hope you take pictures and give us feedback on how your bar/heel/quarter work goes.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 11:11 am:
Nancy, IMHO if the pads are helping it was probably his toe area where he hoof tested sore that was bothering him. Providing relief and protection for the tip of P3. Rarely do pads help sore heels, believe your hoof tester.
You are right the more they move comfortably, the sooner they get better. FME I wouldn't touch anything on his hoof UNTIL he has improved to obel grade 2, one being better I think, without bute or pads. Then slowly start tweaking and see what works. Messing with a de-stabilized hoof can be playing with fire...again FME and they weren't good experiences!. They are all different tho.
Good Luck
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 9:38 pm:
Hi Folks - Feivel was able to walk on grass today without his pads on. Not like he was going to trot off or anything, but it was a definite improvement over last week. He is not on any bute, so this was good to see. I will continue to keep the pads on him, changing them daily.
Still a long road to recovery, but a nice indication that MAYBE we are on the right path.
What's interesting to me (Angie, you'll like this) was how the feet look different than they did on Thursday when I put the pads on initially. The frogs look SO much better, fuller, less thrushy, and the sole area looks less "angry". I am wondering if all the abrasion from the gravel and hard soil was making it impossible for him to heal either frogs or soles - kind of like when you get a blister, and though it's not very big, the more you irritate it, the worse it gets, until you bandage it and leave it alone. Not sure, but that is what it looks like.
One never knows. I am just holding my breath, hoping he continues to slowly recover.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 9:08 am:
Sounds like you are on the right path.
It IS amazing how much difference a little thing like a pad under the hoof, a swipe of the rasp on a spot that appears to be a hairs width higher, or some similar action can make.
I don't know what you used for pads; I used some styrofoam when Tango was experiencing what I think Fievel (like the mouse??)is going through now. It amazed me that the styrofoam was just flattened beyond belief when I would unwrap the hoofs, but it DID make a difference in his comfort at his toes. And I found also the hoof will repair itself very quickly if it has a bit of help, or sometimes just left alone long enough!
Just as those bars will pop back overnight, trim them correctly once or maybe twice, and you might be wondering where they went!! LOL!!
I THINK the reason they seem to pop back up over night is maybe because they are like laying over, and as a 1000 pound animal puts weight on something that is laid over, it springs back where it was? But if you "bevel" it as you put it, it will spring back but be more upright and not as noticeable? The weight of the horse keeps driving that bar, if it's too long it keeps coming back as it has to go someplace?
Have to excuse my ramblin's, we haven't had a rain free sunny day for over a week, and I have waaay to much time to think!! LOL!!
I think Diane has some good advice also, don't change too much at one time. 2-3 more days won't matter that much if the bars/heel isn't addressed, by then the toe area should be better, then slowly tweak the bars. If you got it all corrected, he will trot off a new horse!
I can't wait to hear your next glowing report!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 5:44 pm:
Hey Guys - even funnier today LOL! I had the hay barn open and Feivel walked right in and tried to squeeze past the tractor!! I backed him out and then gave him a light swat with the whip (even sick horses can't be ill-mannered!!) and he squealed and trotted off! NOW - he was head bobbing lame, and had his "clogs" on, but there was significant movement for a horse that was immobile 4 days ago. BTW - there WAS hay out for him, he just knew where the alfalfa was and went after it..... he had that little sparkle in his eye of "I gotta eat alfalfa)
The pads I am using are cut from an exercise pad, so I can use new ones every day. They are completely squashed when I take them off. Theya re about 1/4" thick - blue BTW.
Last night it rained, so his feet got wet, and I could "smell the smell" of the infected frogs. Suggestions? I tried the gold bond powder again today, do I want to rotate it with Betadine, desitin, anyone have any ideas?
Trimming today included - scooped out the quarters (again!), took a tiny bit of bar (I mean tiny) and two swipes each on each heel to bring them back. My question now is: I can see the WL in front going crazy - it's going to be too long in about 2 days, so what do I do? - leave it grow too long, take it back, any ideas????
And yes, he's named after the mouse - he was very dark grey for about 15 years. I need to post a picture of him so you can all "bond". lol
nancy
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Member:
quatro
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 8:02 pm:
Hi All, I just finally got on line, and am so interested in this post as we are dealing with the same exact thing with Levi. He was ridden barefoot on our trailride, and has been lame ever since.
I thought he was having some problems with his back end, as he was shifting his weight off of his front end.
He walks better in grass, grade 3 lame on gravel. I have him in his boots, with cotton soaked in betadine to hopefully harden up his soles. We too are 3 weeks out, and the hoof wall is looking like yours Nancy.
I had the other farrier out to round off levi's toe, and now he is more lame than when we came home.
Boots and bute for him for the next week or so I guess.
It is very frustrating, but everyone here is soooo helpful and supportive, good luck
suz
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
Again FME so take it for what that is worth, Hanks WL is FAR from perfect, if I "get after it" too much he gets sore (not as much as he used to) He stays VERY comfortable with a slight rocker at the toe, and a good bevel all around. If done like my farrier did it he was immobilized for days...to weeks....When they are having acute pain...Protect the tip of P3 on the thin soled, flat footed horse at all costs until they are stable.
As far as your thrush problem with pads, I had the same thing. Medicate to your preference at the time I used betadine, but overused and his hoof got too dry and brittle...sigh. SOOO I went to the lil swimmers wrap and put the pad on the OUTSIDE of the lil swimmers...his hoof stayed VERY dry. You may be able to get away without a pad if you do this... Don't know if you have seen this, but these kept Hank pretty comfy and DRY even without a pad
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/185158.html
I know there was an article I read that really helped me understand what to do with Hanks toes... I think it is in one of his threads... will look later.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 9:29 pm:
Diane, as always you are a font of information - little swimmers are on my to do list tomorrow!!!
Susan, I would say we sound like a similar situation, your horse probably sounder than mine - do you think your might have an abscess or no?
The other thing I would ask how is his frog looking - any smell, or discomfort there? Have you done any soaking? I am starting to think that the soaking I have done with the Cleantrax may not be as innocuous as I originally thought - looking back as my notes of "incidents" they seem to follow a "soak/trim" cycle. Hmm. Anyone else have any thought on that.
BTW - I just came back from turning them out for the night into the pasture - Feivel is muzzled, unfortunately - when he saw the muzzle in my hands he trotted away from me for about 10 minutes, what an old man! It did my heart good!
Anyway - I noticed one thing - now that I have the smell back of the frogs, he is not landing as heel first, more flat foot. So leads me to think that there has to be some frog involvement somehow....
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 10:08 pm:
Soaking softens the sole further
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 11:24 pm:
"Feivel" Ha, brings back memories, haven't thought of the mouse since my oldest son had
a Feivel. He's 26 now! Cute. His Fievil was brown with blue shorts though, not grey, lol!
Well guys, I gave my geldings a little tweaking tonight and I didn't see major bars, but man o man can I tell we went from very dry to very wet!
A few things I noticed I wanted to add to this discussion:
The easy one, and often ignored, is make sure the frog is not bulging above the sole. Sometimes at the mid point, the frog will be too high and I never thought it needed to be cut down until I read that it is a hard enough part of the foot to cause discomfort. I don't see that in your pictures Nancy but just in case, lay the edge of the rasp across the hoof at a few spots. Good frog at the back of the foot is needed, but a taper from apex to heel is o.k. if it's too high...is my understanding.
The 2nd thing I noticed on my guys was a black line in those flares at the quarters! We all seem to notice flaring at the toes, "seedy toe" WL, black in the toe flare, but I can see it in my guys at quarters too. Especially at the heel/bar junction.
I hope it is just because it's wet now, but I am worried and going to treat those areas.
I wanted to share this because I think there are way too many horses with the bars not being done correctly and it seems even professionals are o.k. with some flare in that area which I don't understand if it can also become an area of "disease" I wish I had pictures from before I started trimming to prove that my paid farrier didn't seem to understand that either.
Nancy, would love to see some updated pictures soon.
BTW, does he rest his hind feet often? When I THOUGHT I was doing bars good enough, but wasn't, both my geldings seem to prefer to rest their hind feet more often than I was comfortable with. Both seem better about keeping all 4 feet flat now at rest. Something else I watch like a hawk!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 11:46 pm:
Angie, yes about the frog apex - I do trim it back since he has such flat soles. A definite thing to, I agree 100%.
Yes, sure I see the flares at the quarters and heel bar junction, every time I pick up those feet! Agree again that there should be no flare there, and also know that it has to do with bars and relieving the quarters. I'd say that I "think" I do enough, and then of course I have not!!
I just mentioned to a friend that I will take pictures tomorrow. I will try to post them here (If I can downsize properly lol!)
Tell me - WHY the resting of the hind feet - what's that signaling - I would think that resting the hinds mean they are comfy in front - but wrong again, probably - what's your theory about that???
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 9:03 am:
Yes, I think resting the hinds can mean they are comfy, relaxing. I remember when a few years ago I had Cody's heel too low; he kept switching resting his hinds. Tango was resting one or the other whenever he was standing when I wasn't addressing the bars enough. Lots of different meanings, some good, some not so good.
I also remembered when Tango was sore on his fronts, he also stood with his front feet out. Which made me think laminitis, which it was in the sense he had toe pain.
It's enough to make your head spin, lol!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 5:29 pm:
Hi Guys - here's the new photos:
https://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz129/spearhead10000/June29/
I had so many I thought it would make this thread too long! LOL
Anyway, remember that I am trimming very gradually, not taking off much, so there is still alot to go. Heels better today so a return to heel first landing, I also had the massage person by to help him - he loves that! Also he is in the "little swimmers' today.
I am thinking that these toe cracks need to be examined further by my vet - she comes tomorrow. Wish us luck!
Nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 8:24 pm:
HMMM you do have yourself a hoof similar to Hanks. In the 3rd and 7th pic it appears the outside hoof wall at the heel is quite a bit taller. I think that is the pic, one thing nice when they are in the thread you don't have to go back and forth... my question is, the hoof wall doesn't look like is beveled, they look flat??? The toe looks the same way so you are increasing his break over by quite a bit?? I may be wrong, but it appears that way.
How did the swimmees work for you?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 9:41 pm:
Nancy,
Very good photos! I have to 2nd Diane's comment that having them in the discussion would be easier to view, and we could put them in paint and mark them up easier as I still can't do that from Photo Bucket. Might just be me...
I am wondering if you having the vet out just due to his hoof sensitivity? Please don't take this wrong, but MOST vets are not hoof experts, and a few tweaks and I think, my opinion & experience thus far talking, this horse will be 100% sound.
Just my thoughts, no offense meant.
Before I comment on what I see, something to remember: FLARES cause a horse PAIN.
"For the immediate comfort of a flared foot, the top priority is to remove stress on the white line so that it is not painful and further stretching is prevented. Although the horse will be "walking on the sole" for a while, we see over and over that white line pain bothers horses more than sole pain. We can use protective sole pads for 2 or 3 days, if needed; after that, owners generally report that their horse is "running and bucking in the pasture."
This is from barefoothorse.com "Flares."
Looking at the pictures, what I see;
2 & 6 The wall needs to be even thickness all around. 7, R hand side looks longer at toe,
3 & 9 quarters & heel look too high...quarters look to be weight bearing, flared and causing pain.
8...see how the coronet band is pushed up? The hoof wall has been left too long, you can see it there...quarters again.
And I agree with Diane not enough bevel all around.
I am going add a picture next...hold on.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 10:03 pm:
Looking down the hoof, and following the red line across; those areas CANNOT be the highest points which APPEARS to be the case with Fievel's hoofs. I know pictures are misleading, what looks level to my eye in the barn, looks lousy in pictures on the computer.
I would like to suggest rasping straight out at the quarters a bit.
BTW, the following picture is not my work, it is my helpers work. I am not YET that comfortable with so much bevel, or heels so low on all my horses. IF you lower a heel too much too fast, the horse can be sore too.
I think my 2nd picture above is close to the one below.
Now, isn't this FUN?!?! 
P.S., I am hoof picture taking freak, normally I take 14 - 20 per horse! One I especially like is heel to toe with a bit of the toe & sole showing so I can see if things are level all around. I think that one, and the straight on heel to toe like you did are very important.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 29, 2010 - 10:45 pm:
I don't know Angie, she is dealing with a pathological hoof, and IMHO I don't think her horse could tolerate a hoof like the one pictured above for quite some time.
We had that discussion in Hanks last thread I think...one of them anyway LOL. About removing flare all at once, the consensus seemed to be it wasn't a real good Idea.
I think it would be easier on her horse (but not as fast) just to keep a good bevel on his hoof and let him adjust with the changes . Hanks flares are much less then they used to be, but we still have a ways to go. It's kind of a catch 22, while they have the flares it keeps the sole thinned, but if you get rid of them all at once they are left very uncomfortable on those thin soles.
While Hank still has flares, very similar to Nancy's horse at this point, he is sound, we are back pole bending, doing barrels, trail riding and he is loving it, ouchy on rocks, but we are getting there SLOW but sure, I think keeping his sole from bruising and the toe at the sole from weight bearing is a BIG part of it. Having the coffin bone knocking on a thin sole is very painful too. They are all different tho and you have to go with what works.
The farrier trimmed Sam very much like the hoof above, according to his hoof wall he had a MAJOR founder this winter when I thought he was done for.. he walked off sound AND much better after that trim...Hank wouldn't have moved for weeks, and would have probably gotten laminitis... been there done that for years, so I think it can depend on the horse.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2010 - 10:14 am:
Diane,
I agree and disagree with some of your observations.
I don't thinking leaving a flare is ever a positive thing to do. A flare is like your fingernail bent back to the quick!
Especially at the quarters. I can think of no reason why leaving a flared hoof wall there would be a good thing. When that part is flared from being left too long (or too high from underneath) then that part is weight bearing and that is not meant to be. Then we are talking about the heel point being too far forward and you will never, IMO, win the battle of getting rid of the flare, having a HEEL first landing.
It is not a good idea to lower the heel quickly. That is not the same as moving the heel point back. I have experienced that first hand,(sore heeled horse) and read it many, many times.
And I know how hard it is to grasp!
If you read about flares and study the pictures on the link above, you will see EXACTLY how I sored Tango last summer: I tried to eliminate the flare all at once all AROUND the hoof, including the toe area. I missed the part about providing protection, and that you need to be sure and have enough VERTICAL toe height. I THINK Nancy's horse is sore from lack of vertical toe height, and flares. Thin soles may be part of it, but the thin soles are caused by many things, some are man made like leaving flares, not beveling,improper diet, etc. (Not picking on anyone, most of us can't provide 1000 acres for proper movement with a mustang diet!)
Where I worry about the Redden video is putting the bevel he does on the toe, and missing when to stop. 11 & 1 o'clock is it? In Nancy's pictures, I think the toe can be beveled more, but I would personally be afraid to bevel too much and have a sore toe. The hoof needs to grow at the toe. A toe callous needs to develop.
PR says you can put a steeper bevel on at the quarters...if they are flared. The quarters are meant to be scooped and weight bearing as the hoof wall expands; the steeper bevel there works.
The picture above is done by someone with 15 years experience. I don't recall what the hoof looked like to start, how bad the flaring was, etc. I was trying to show how the quarters looked...level and not higher (from the view underneath) than the rest of the hoof wall. Just take that from the picture for now.
A professional can "read" the hoof and have a good idea where the coffin bone is. PR teaches to look at CG depth and use that as a measure of sole thickness.
IMO, you cannot do damage by scooping & beveling the quarters. Looking at the hoof from the side on a level hard surface, you should see that area not touching. (I think a horse on softer ground will have less of "scoop" because softer ground calls for a flatter hoof)
TO change a hoof, the bevel must be maintained, sometimes twice a week, at the toe and a touch all around. The bars must be kept trimmed as the hoof changes also.
"she is dealing with a pathological hoof, and IMHO I don't think her horse could tolerate a hoof like the one pictured above for quite some time."
I think only because the hoof does not have enough protection of the tip of the CB. YET. Once the hoof lands heel first, flares are addressed, bars done correctly, I think that hoof would tolerate that trim. With a hoof boot, that trim could be done now. Without, maybe 2-4 weeks.
I am not a professional of course, and it's taking me a couple of years to get brave enough to do more.
BTW, when you bevel a flare, you are NOT getting rid of it and leaving the horse on the sole. A bevel eases the contact of the OUTER hoof wall, the inner hoof wall still connects with the ground. I would never suggest you bevel a flare to the sole and have the horse totally on the sole! A professional could do that, and boot the horse with pads, get quick results, not for me, I agree with slow changes too.
Have to finish this up...so let me give a reminder: Less is More. Nancy & Diane, you not doing anything wrong, you should only do as much as you comfortable with. Every time I think I understand something, I see something else, read something else. If I remember Hank's last pictures, flares at quarters yet? Bars a bit too much yet? Address bars and flares together, leave the rest. Check them weekly at least, see what happens.
I need to come up with some disclaimer I can end my posts with!!
"These are opinions and observations of one self taught trimmer who is still learning and is also very open to comments and criticisms. It is not meant to replace the advice of a professional barefoot hoof care specialist. You are encouraged to do your own research and only do what you are comfortable with. All hoofs present different problems at different times and all aspects of hoof care & environment need to be taken into consideration."
Did I cover my butt enough there?!?!
Best of luck, happy trimming!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2010 - 3:07 pm:
Hi Guys - sorry about the posting on Photobucket - I have to get a new downsizer - we have a new camera with mega pixels and I am trying to figure it out.
Anyway here's the vet visit synopsis:
1. Frogs much better but still have infection/soreness. Continue on with diet and medication as per HA. Diane, Swimmers working very well. She said since the frogs were better, to leave him outside the swimmers 1/2 day and see what happens - if he gets worse, go back to 24/7. But he is def sore on his heels due to frogs, and that the heels should not at this time be lowered substantially. As the heels heal, than the heels will probably come down on their own - if not, I can trim then.
2. Soreness at the toe is due to (or at least partially) Seedy Toe in both fronts, left one is worse. Hoof wall is quite soft there. I am going to take him to the clinic on Friday and my BF trimmer friend (who was a farrier but now 100% BF - and taking BF classes) will take care of the hoof . The vet's advice is identical to Dr. O's on seedy toe, exactly. She said that he might indeed be sorer for a few days/week/whatever, but that like Dr. O she feels this area must be opened or the toe and hoof wall will not heal properly. This may clear up all the toe soreness, or only part of it.
3. He does not currently have a laminitis attack in her opinion.
4. She will refer me to an equine clinic if the Seedy Toe does not resolve.
Your posts: thanks you guys!!
Yes, I absolutely agree that he does not have enough bevel - this has been driving me crazy to look at his feet and to see that. The vet said that the seedy toe is making his foot "bell" so much that needs to be addressed first, and then the beveling next. Breakover at the toe must come back as Diane said. I was taking the toe back from above, as I stated before, because this is what my "hoof guru" wanted me to do (NOT the same person who will be helping me on Friday) She never wanted me to bevel from below, but I look at these pix and agree with you 100% about the bevel.
Yes, I do see the coronet band and know that has to do with the quarters - I need to post some pix to show how bad they were 6 months ago, these are so much better you won't believe it!! I take down those quarters to the sole almost every day that I can.
It's hard to see in these pix, but he has a HONKER of a toe callus (that's NOT the CB, but the toe callus you see in some of these pix) - it has actually gone down slightly since I've had him in these pads, cuz he's not getting activity to build them up.
Everything you guys have said makes sense to me, and I will certainly try to address as much as I can in his heel area tomorrow - then we'll do the toe work on Friday so we must leave the heels alone for a few weeks, so he can heal those toes before I try any more trimming.
He is walking around today on the gravel, gimpy, but without pads. His left foot is now CLEARLY worse than the right, and that is the foot with the worst seedy toe. She said that though my hoof guru told me to soak him to get rid of the seedy toe, to STOP soaking since it is negatively affecting his soles and frogs. She believes that's why he was so lame last week - his feet were just sore all over.
After we get these toes taken care of, the trim part should then be easier. I can't really get a good toe bevel when the hoof wall there is like mush.
Thanks for all your advice and I will keep you posted!
nancy
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 30, 2010 - 3:24 pm:
One more thing - despite how the sole looks, Feivel's CB has a fair bit of sole under it - in fact MORE than he did last fall, when he was sound. Of course, he could use MORE (LOL!). I saw the x-rays myself, and the CB is in fact higher in the hoof capsule than last November. That's why all this is driving me crazy! I see improvement in the CB height, contraction of his heels is much less than it was, the sole looks significantly better than last fall, the Hairline is better. And yet, he is lamer. So we'll see if this seedy toe is what is holding up the entire foot remodeling.
If it's not, well then we've got other problems..... The vet said she had never seen his feet look as good as they do now - and said they are better than 75% of the horses she sees. So, the trim needs to be better, tis true, but she thinks the trim is not the source of all this lameness.
nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 8:29 am:
Sounds like you have a very good vet who is knowledgeable about hoofs, and you have access to a good BF trimmer too.
Can't wait to hear an update! Details, details, so I can learn from you now.
On pictures: do you have the free PIXresizer downloaded on your computer? Many of us use that to re-size for HA posts. You do have to use a custom setting though.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jul 2, 2010 - 8:32 pm:
HI All,
Feivel is doing OK today after having his "procedure". I will post pix this weekend. Right now he is booted/padded to keep the toes open and draining. ALSO - found a subsolar abscess on the LF, his painful foot. Trimmer hopes that it will drain out the toe so that he does not have to make another hole in his foot.
I did some of the work myself, with him supervising me, but of course, I let him do the toe area! Much of the hoof wall was soft, so we removed it. The sole is on the ground, so Feivel may be sore for 3-4 days but I feel confident that we did the best we could for him (pads will stay on until sole can handle it!)
Angie - send me info on pix resizer - thanks very much.
Happy July 4th everyone!
Nancy
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 6:58 am:
Hummm . . . abscess presenting as mild to moderate lameness. Wonder if that was cooking prior to the 24th of June, or developed recently and quickly in response to some latent agent acting inside the hoof capsule?
Another thread on lameness discussed this question. What possible causes of abscess would be preceeded by long periods of mild lameness?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 7:26 am:
Guy, I wonder if seedy toe could do that? It does predispose them to abscesses, but I'm not sure whether seedy toe causes lameness? (according to Hank it does) He had a big black spot in his WL the other day (not the blob) and he was walking a little off, I dug it out and put TB on it and he was better the next day, 2 days later he was back to normal. It didn't drain, so it hadn't become an abscess yet.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 8:29 am:
Bruises, thin soles, and close nails are common precursors to an abscess, in my experience Guy. But I also often find sole abscesses are often misdiagnosed even having some call non-lame horses with solar irregularities as "solar abscesses".
Seedy toe is not painful until the infection reaches sensitive tissue then it becomes a abscess and quite painful if unable to drain.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 8:41 am:
Interesting Dr.O. so there wouldn't be any "in between time lameness" from when the seedy toe goes from insensitive to sensitive tissue?
Kind of a weird analogy but it reminds me somewhat of a boil, they don't really hurt too bad until they are getting to be full blown, but you definitely know they are there until then and they can take weeks to develop.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 9:31 am:
Nancy,
Try this:
https://download.cnet.com/PIXresizer/3000-12511_4-10607499.html
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 9:36 am:
I find it's easiest to save the picture I want in desktop. Be sure to label well! After I resize it, it's on my desktop again, new size shows. I put 450 in the first part, then 338 shows up in the 2nd.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 11:31 am:
Here are the pictures:
https://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz129/spearhead10000/July3rdtoes/
Let me know which ones you want to add to the discussion and I will post them.
Thanks,
Nancy
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 11:49 am:
Yikes is that hole as deep as it appears? If it is I would say it looks more like WLD than seedy toe. Boy even when I resize these down they stay big!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 2:47 pm:
And WHY is your horse standing on Poor ol' Pete??
So what are you treating that big hole with?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 8:14 pm:
Angie, Matt had to leave and I realized that we needed the front view - and we had been using Pete! It was what was there!
Thought it would send good Karma Feivel's way. LOL
Hole treated with peroxide and pads - nothing more, Don't want to soak a waterlogged foot.....
He IS better today - will see if he is again tomorrow - better attitude, can turn more readily. Still off on that Left foot. Matt is hoping the sole wasn't damaged too much and won't become a raging abscess..... still in pads, but out 24/7 for walking. Still heel first - BTW - except for the toes, I did all the trimming under his watchful eye- learned tons of stuff....
nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 3, 2010 - 9:18 pm:
Diane the article on solar abscesses discusses the most common appearance of this "inbetween time" but for the months or even years the seedy toe is rooted in only the horn there is no lameness. There are no nerves or living tissues in the horn.
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 4, 2010 - 1:37 pm:
Dr. O, this seedy toe has been present for at least 2 years that I know of, and indeed, has caused no lameness during that time, until recently, when we surmise the abscess(es) at the toe are due to the undermining of the sole from this infection.
Currently, I have the feet wrapped and my vet suggested using hyDrOgen peroxide to keep them clean. Do you have any other suggestions or input? I saw that you talked about using formaldehyde in your article, but I would rather avoid using that, unless you think that that would be absolutely necessary for a good outcome. I have also read about inserting "sole pack" in the holes to protect them - but would that not reduce healing/drainage?
Thanks,
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 6, 2010 - 9:52 pm:
nancy,
Horses with significant seedy toe are usually rotated and radiographs can help substantially with placing the coffin bone within the horn mass (hoof capsule) and allow for long term corrections.
To get at the root of significant seedy toe the diseased white line has to be removed along with the overlying flared wall, usually with a rasp. For more on this see the trimming subsection in the Treatment subtopic of HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview.
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 7, 2010 - 2:15 pm:
Dr. O, I had him xrayed in April, but was thinking about doing it again. I'll do so as soon as I think he will be comfortable for a 30 minute trailer drive, as the films taken at the clinic are greatly superior to those taken at my barn.
Thanks,
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 7:29 am:
Nancy if your coffing bone is rotated be sure to check out HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 10:13 am:
Dr. O, as of April, there was no rotation, so I am hoping that is still the case. HIs hoof wall has grown about 1 1/2" since then, with good attachment half way down the hoof. Then I get the flaring problems. I have read this article before, but I will read it again to reacquaint myself with the advice. Also I will have my trimmer friend read it too.
The horse is substantially better than on June 24th when I started this thread. I think he still has an abscess or bruise on the LF, but we can't really find anything definitive to cut out at this time.
Thanks for your advice,
Nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 8, 2010 - 6:19 pm:
How lame is the horse Nancy? Is there a very sensitive focal area to hoof testers and if not has the foot been blocked?
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 12:22 pm:
Dr. O, actually he is getting better every day, surprisingly. I find the more he moves, the better he feels (like all of us I suppose!) He can now walk normally on grass, with a slight hesitation on gravel (flat soles, too) He is lame at the trot, but he will willingly trot.
There is a focal point on the LF, we could press it in with our fingers and get a reaction. BUT - in a week's time, the sole has hardened there some, and I am hoping that it was a bruise and not an abscess. I had him padded for 4 days after the last trim, that really seemed to help him significantly. The trimmer is coming to look and evaluate on Monday, to see how the horse is doing, and to trim other horses. Backing his toe up has really helped his movement, as long as I keep that sole protected the first few days after the trim.
He is significantly better than June 24th. I plan to get him x-rayed again, but will wait another week or so to let him get more comfortable.
Do you think Keratex would help him in this instance, or is it better to just leave everything alone? My husband (a microbiologist) said - sometimes I do to much and I need to let him be a horse . Truer words never spoken!
Thanks,
nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 9, 2010 - 7:05 pm:
These treatment decisions must be made by you your vet and farrier but I have trouble seeing how Keratex would help. Dehydrating the horn of the sole and allowing it to grow out are what creates a tougher sole and we discuss this at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Hoof Abscesses, Bruises, and Gravels.
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 4, 2010 - 10:01 pm:
Well, an update on the horse, Feivel. He was doing pretty well until July 14th, and then the left foot (that was sensitive before) abscessed for sure. He could not move at all for about 12 days, and finally it resolved, though no location of where it came out. (My vet is not a believer in finding and cutting out abscesses, not necessarily what I believe, but you have to work with who you got).
Finally, he is better, but of course, I did no trimming or anything, and his feet are all a mess now, though the "seedy toe" or WLD or whatever seems OK. And now it's 110o here today, just to add to unpleasantness.
Has anyone ever dealt with a foot that the frog seemed to "sink into"? It seems as if nearly all of my horses rear feet have HUGE collateral grooves around the apex of the frog, really deep. One horse the sole exfoliated and I removed all the dead sole and cut down these HUGE bars standing there and his foot looks normal, or near normal now. Does this deep groove around the apex of the frog signify that the sole will exfoliate, or do I try to remove the sole before it exfoliates.
has anyone ever seen anything like this.
I'll try to post some pix if I can.
Nancy
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 4, 2010 - 10:04 pm:
Pictures:
https://s820.photobucket.com/albums/zz129/spearhead10000/festusleftrearjuly192010 /
nancy
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 5, 2010 - 6:32 pm:
Nancy without see purulence the diagnosis of an abscess is speculative. Horses that don't move around at all tend to be bilaterally lame.
As to the from being so deep, referring to the image of the sole further up it would appear the problem is not that the frog is sunk in but that the heels are overly long and a little run under.
DrO
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 5, 2010 - 8:02 pm:
Dr. O, just this morning I found my answer - there was an abscess in a REAR foot! I found the area where it had "come out", very obvious now that I see it in the heel bulb. So that explains why he did not move at all! Whether he had an abscess in the front foot, I still am not sure, but very positive about this hind foot.
The heels are indeed overly long, as I was not able to trim him while he was incapacitated. I will address these and see if it helps him.
Thanks for your response.
Nancy
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