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Discussion on Pony has foundered, need advice!!
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New Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 4:21 pm:
I have a 12H Welsh pony mare that recently foundered on both front feet. The vet was out on 7/23 and did x-rays. He detected what he called a small rotation, but was unable to tell me a degree of rotation. In fact, he said that the degree of rotation did not really matter. After reading the articles here, I would disagree. I would like to attach the x-rays for review and see if you could tell me what degree of rotation is present or at least if we are dealing with a mild/moderate or more severe case. I am questioning the vet's level of knowledge on this subject. We have been keeping her stalled on deep shavings and she is on the following meds: 1/2 gr. bute 2x/day, 10 isoxuprine 2x/day, .5cc acepromazine 2x/day, 1/2 tsp. aspirin every other day, 3 cimetidine 2x/day. I have also purchased Easyboot RX boots to put on her feet to make her more comfortable. The vet said that 10 days seems to be the magic number for improvement. However, she is still pretty darn ouchy when barefoot without the boots and still quite careful with her steps in the boots. How long should I expect her to be sore on her feet? What is the typical time necessary for return to soundness provided that she has not rotated more? The vet said we need to begin weaning her off these meds, but I am worried about doing so when she is still ouchy. Also, is there anything else that we should be giving her medication wise, or any other therapy that has been missed? The reason for the founder is a mystery. Our grass is not particularly lush, she is on a low starch pellet (about 1 1/2 cups a day), had been on 24/7 turnout, barefoot. I did give her 4cc of oral dexamethasone for extreme itching for 4 days prior to finding her in a laminitic state. She has had dex in the past with no problems. Also, wondering if the extreme heat we are having played a role. I suppose we will never know the exact cause. Thank you in advance for your replies. 
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New Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 7:16 pm:
One other caveat to this story, pony was trimmed on Monday 7/19 and was noticeably sore on the evening of 7/20. Which lead me to believe that she might be sore from the trim, however as time went by it became apparent this was more than that and the vet was called in. Is it possible the trim was a factor in this equation?
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 8:06 pm:
Welcome Cara and so sorry it's over a serious issue like this. Understand I'm have no expertise and Dr. O will weigh in either tonight or tomorrow, but I think your pony does have rotation and thin soles which leaves his coffin bone very close to the ground so it's no wonder he's still sore. Dr. O has excellent articles on founder and laminitis which you should read and reread to help you as this process doesn't go away overnight and won't get better without the proper treatment from you, your vet and farrier working as a team. If you're not confident you have both of them on board and knowledgeable, it's going to be much harder. By educating yourself, starting with the articles here, you'll be well on your way. This is a manageable disease and I think based on the radiographs alone, you have a good shot at correcting the coffin bone alignment. As to the "why", that's often a mystery, but it seems being overweight, being a pony and being on grass are all factors that come into play. Now, as I said, I have no expertise, but I think you're fortunate to have caught this and have done what I would do (and have done successfully in the past) and that's limit movement, soft bedding, etc. The laminae that hold the coffin bone to the hoof wall are damaged and weakened. Movement can further tear and weaken the bond and lead to further rotation. I was very fortunate to have a vet who kept up with the latest research, is an equine vet, and worked well with a farrier who was willing to learn from and do as the vet perscribed, which was the same procedure that Dr. O describes in the de-rotation article. I did get my gelding sound and kept him that way until I lost him nine years later to a tortion colic. Anyway, good luck, it's a long haul but don't give up.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 8:34 pm:
Cara,
You appear to have somewhat more rotation (and thinner sole) than my horse had earlier this year.
My guy is doing great now but he did go through some additional problems with abscesses and thrush infection, which apparently are quite common complications.
And it was way longer than 10 days before my horse began to do better plus we suffered a setback when some of his sole was trimmed too soon by my farrier.
It took several weeks for my horse's hoof capsule to remodel and for him to become sound again.
After he had improved, my Vet did not want him to run around too much too soon though we gradually enlarged his turn out area. He was finally turned out into the complete pasture after nearly five months and is now doing wonderfully.
I was instructed to get his weight down and took about 75 pounds off of him while he was recuperating.
Good luck and don't be discouraged.
The length of time for recovery and the course of this condition seem to vary from one horse to another as you would discover reading various case histories here on H.A.
Welcome to H.A. and I hope that you will find this resource very helpful, as I have.
Don't take any sole off until this situation is completely stable though sometimes it is a good idea to take toes back.
Dr. O's articles about the recovery process and de-rotation are excellent.
I would think that if the trim made your pony sore and he began compensating that might have contributed to triggering the laminitis, but Dr. O can answer that question better than I.
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New Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 9:09 pm:
Thanks for the advice. Can I ask how long your horse stayed on meds? I do not want to wean her off, as my vet has suggested, and risk a step backward.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 1, 2010 - 10:23 pm:
It was a roller coaster with regard to the medications. On the third day of Bute Perry began to have symptoms of colic/ulcers so had to take a day or so off and my Vet had to come out and give injections of Cimetidine. We got him back on the Bute pretty quickly and ordered Gastro Guard. Once he had been on that for several days the ulcer pains subsided. Cimetidine apparently will only work successfully for a limited amount of time according to my Vet.
After about 11 days we went down to once daily Bute for a few days and just as we were to the point of using no Bute my farrier took some sole off (contrary to instructions of my Vet) and we had about a 10 day set back and had to have him on the Bute again for about that long. Maybe the setback was also due to removing the Bute.
After he had eventually been taken off the Bute entirely, my Vet told me to just monitor the situation closely and if Perry would get in pain again, use the Bute as needed. If the fire is there in the feet, you need to put it out with the NSAIDs.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 8:46 am:
Cara,
Welcome and I too am sorry we all need to meet you under such trying circumstances.
I have never personally experienced a founder, knock on wood, but I have been studying and applying barefoot trimming to my horses for over 3 years.
I want to add that as these hoofs grow out, it is very important to keep a bevel on the hoof wall, keep the heel low, and protect the sole. You want to keep the wall from pulling away more. I think pads of some kind and deep bedding are more important than a steady course of meds. With the advice of your vet & farrier, I would come up with a plan to get off pain meds sooner than later because movement is important...WITH PROTECTION, as soon as the horse can do so. In other words, I believe it's a fine line between using pain meds that would let the horse move TOO MUCH, and using nothing to protect the hoof, and causing more damage. I would use boots and pads, and quit meds after a few days...just my opinion.
Founder if fixable! I did OWN a previously foundered pony and she was fine.
Good Luck,
Take Care.
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 9:04 am:
I am curious if others reading this thread have any experience using equioxx as an alternative NSAID to the Bute for founder. I know some say Equioxx is slower to be effective, and perhaps even less effective dealing with inflammation in the hoof -- but it is much gentler on the stomach.... ???? Equioxx is also more expensive than Bute, so perhaps Bute with Ulcergard is a better answer than switching from Bute to Equioxx to deal with the conflicting needs of the hoof inflammation and ulcer prevention. ???
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New Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 10:17 am:
I do have the pony in Easy RX boots. They came Saturday and she is much more comfortable, both in and out of the boots. I have been letting her out of the stall for brief periods, as she is getting really tired of being in there. I worry that by standing around she is not getting good circulation in the feet too. But then the above posts say how fragile the foot is right now and movement can cause further damage. It is hard to know what to do. Good question regarding the Equioxx. Maybe Dr. O can answer that question too when he reads the thread. In everyone's experience, is it manageable keeping the horse barefoot with boots/pads or are shoes and pads the only option? Thanks!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 3:36 pm:
Hello Cara,
Most of your questions are answered in detail in the article except for "how long?". I want you to note the feeding recommendations in the article which you do not address above and the recommendations on exercise. Stress of any kind will increase the chances of a founder happening. Dexamethasone does not cause founder but may lower the threshold at which it occurs by increasing insulin resistance. Your history suggest a bruising type of founder.
Founder is extremely variable and while there is mild to moderate rotation in the above images we do not know if that was there before this episode. Some horses with acute rotation of this degree will be sore for a month or two. The important steps to watch for are first that the lameness has stopped getting worse and followed by the beginnings of some improvement. It may be slow but as long as there is improvement you are heading in the right direction.
DrO
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 4:20 pm:
Cara, in reference to Angie's post--DO NOT lower the heel until the horse is sound, without pain off meds and there is no further rotation. At that point, reference Dr. O's article on deroation.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 4:37 pm:
Good catch, Julie.
While exercise and activity is great at the correct time it can also cause a setback if done too early.
When pain and inflammation is present in the feet, the understanding that I had from my Vet was that there was nothing more important than the NSAID (Bute was what he prescribed)medication and at this stage keep the horse in deep shavings or other soft, deep footing.
My horse was allowed access to a small sand paddock connected to his stall when he was doing better but was still healing.
One must monitor the situation on a constant on-going basis and act accordingly.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 5:23 pm:
Raising or lowering the heel is quite controversial, if you google it you will get many different opinions, all of which make sense.
In the case of the x-rays above IMHO I would leave the hooves alone until he is pain free while off of bute then start a good balanced trim. The thin sole may need protection for awhile depending on the horse and the ground he is kept on.
As Dr.O. said the diet may need to be addressed and this pony will snap right out of it.
FME with Sam equioxx didn't work half as well for laminitis as the bute did, if your pony isn't having problems handing the bute I wouldn't worry about it he will be off it soon enough as long as your management is up to par. .
Good luck with your pony...BTW I have one horse (Hank) that foundered much worse than your pony and has very thin soles... he is barefoot, it is a struggle sometimes with the thin soles, but we have made it almost a year now. Sam my other horse that has cushings disease foundered badly this winter, is barefoot and doing well so yes it is possible to keep them barefoot...but sometimes a struggle!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 6:24 pm:
Julie,
If the hoof has been trimmed correctly, we will assume it was, why would we not keep the heel at that height? That is what I meant by keeping the heel "lowered" as it would seem that letting it grow out would be counterproductive to trying to keep get that cb level.
Cara,
You will find, as Diane says, different theories on what is the best method with regard to founder.
I wasn't suggesting do anything to the hoof at this time by any means. My apologies if I misspoke and made what to do more confusing.
As DrO says founder is variable.
Again, good luck, and take care.
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New Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 6:37 pm:
Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful insight. In regard to the pony's nutrition, she has been on coastal bermuda pasture, coastal bermuda hay and Banks Mill Low Starch feed. I would put her BCS score at about a 6. Nothing about this pony screamed founder. Yes she was slightly fleshy, but she is a pony and I have always thought myself very careful about her management. After reading over the articles, I did start her on SmartHoof Ultra over the weekend and I will add some alfalfa cubes to her existing diet. The vet said it was o.k. to continue giving her a small amount of the feed she has been on. After another careful review of the article I am going to go against the advice of my vet and keep her on all meds until she is totally pain free. At that point I will follow the withdrawal protocol in the articles. I would like to know when the best time is to get her x-rayed again. I cannot seem to find a reference to suggested time frames. My vet has recommended another set at the end of this week. To me, this seems a bit soon. What is the point in having them taken now? Would it be best to wait until she is seemingly pain free and recovered and then see where we are? Truthfully, I need to watch my $$$ and want to avoid unnecessary trip fees and radiographs. Dr.O, could you please offer an opinion on this?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 7:28 pm:
Goodness Cara,
Adding alfalfa, continuing concentrate on a condition 6 pony that is foundering would not be what I would prescribe, please reconsider the articles recommendations. You can read more about the medications in the Medication Topic or by following the links in the article.
There is no set in stone time for radiography, if the pony is doing better and you explain your circumstances, surely you will be able to work out a mutually suitable arrangement.
I am uncertain about controversy about adjustments to heel length for foundering horses. Simpley do not shorten them while foundering and if the foundering is getting worse in spite of treatment consider lengthening them.
DrO
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 8:39 pm:
Well, I thought the mention of alfalfa of any kind for a founder horse seemed a bit odd. But, you mentioned the horse needed more protein in their diet. I honestly thought that it was the opposite for a horse prone to founder (i.e. too much protein = bad)???? Guess I am a little "fried" at the moment from all of this. Must go back and read with a clear head. I really don't consider the feed I am giving her a true concentrate, as it is a whole grain free diet, no corn, no molasses, no alfalfa. The key components are soybean hulls and beet pulp & it is a 22% fiber 12% protein feed and has one of the lowest NSC values out there. But, thanks for saving me from myself!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 2, 2010 - 11:13 pm:
The controversy I ran into was some purport slowly lowering the heel to get the coffin bone in a more ground parallel position, some say to raise the heel to take the tension off the DDFT. BUT then again I have been told by taking the tension off the DDFT you put more on the SDFT? ( I believe) causing even more rotation and also dumping the horse on the tip of the coffin bone (raise the heels, CB is pointing down even further) I have always believed in taking the middle road and have deep bedding where the horse can choose which is most comfortable.
Cara I fed my horses a bit of alfalfa pellets for the protein, and stemmy hay(or soaked hay) when they were foundering until they lost some weight and were comfortable on their hooves.
Protein isn't what causes a horse to founder(usually), tho there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules in anything horse 
It's usually high/ too many carbs, fructans, starch,.. could be mechanical. I have found by just removing the clover from my pastures they can now graze normally (unless it is very lush grass).. my pasture was loaded with clover which is loaded with starch A founder prone horses/ponies nightmare and it only took me 15 years to figure that out!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 12:21 am:
I think the salient point is you don't lower the heel while the horse is acutely foundering. It's part of the derotation process to realign the coffin bone, but only after the horse is no longer in the acute phase. Actually, the process for derotation is described in Dr. O's article. Sometimes if the heel is underrun, it's brought back which seems like lowering, and then wedged back up with degree pads. It's a lot more complex than us back yard barefoot trimmers are capable of in my opinion and needs the vet/farrier/owner team. I think it's just way too much of a simplification to just say keep the heels low. This process isn't completely understood even by the equine professional community and I think we're dangerously close to practicing medicine without a license as well as getting ahead of ourselves and giving poor Cara additional headaches! I don't mean to sound so grumpy just think we're confusing the issue.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 9:24 am:
O.K., Julie, thanks for adding the above post. I agree with
"This process isn't completely understood even by the equine professional community and I think we're dangerously close to practicing medicine without a license as well as getting ahead of ourselves and giving poor Cara additional headaches!"
and I think this back yard barefoot trimmer will now be quiet and let DrO, and Cara's support team locally decide the best course of action.
We all love our horses and want the best for them, and it's hard (for me anyhow) to not try to help when I read about a horse suffering! A horse in pain means an owner scrambling to find answers.
I don't think you sound grumpy; more like being the voice of reason.
Cara,
I hope you are not more confused from everyone's "help!" I will keep following this while sitting on my fingers ;-).
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 9:27 am:
That should have read "I will keep following this while sitting on my hands so I don't type." 
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 10:51 am:
I have just been reading this. I do know the feeling of wanting to help. One reason I don't jump in when it's laminitis/founder is that the more I read and learn the more confused I get, and I've had horses my entire life. Imo, what makes dealing with founder so difficult is the fact that there are many different reasons for a horse to get laminitis and founder, and just about as many treatments. Every magazine seems to have an article on laminitis and many of them don't agree with each other. And, many vets and farriers don't agree. There are some "proven" means of a horse getting foundered and some proven preventatives and treatments. Those will fit many horses and are gone over throughly by Dr.O in his articles. There are "first aid" treatments that are also gone over which are applicable to all cases. Beyond that however, there are horses that get laminitis for reasons that aren't understood well, if at all. It seems like each horse should be studied carefully by the vet and farrier and dealt with as an individual.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 3:43 pm:
And I hope no one thinks "backyard barefoot trimmer" is a disparaging term--I consider it a "medal of high merit". As hard as the work is physically, the real heavy lifting is the learning process!
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 4:26 pm:
Hello All. Let me just say thanks to everyone that had responded. I certainly did not mean get anyone up in arms over this thread! I know that all information must be taken with caution and applied on a case by case basis. Luckily my pony is trimmed religiously every 5 weeks and was just done prior to this incident. So, her feet do not need any intervention right now. However, I am not sure that the recent trim is not what got us into this mess to begin with. The pony had a pretty nasty chip in her foot from an abscess that we had been watching grow down the hoof wall (never caused any issues but was one of those little "blow out" spots as I call them?) So, I think my farrier may have gotten a little aggressive with the trim. She did appear to be weight bearing on her sole after the trim  which is why I never dreamt she was actually foundering that first couple of days. I have alot of sorting out to do as far as where we go from here when she is well. Not sure that I completely trust my farrier now, but he is one of the better ones in our area. At any rate, I have appreciated hearing everyone's thoughts/opinions/experiences and will gladly hear any additional tidbits if you have something to share. As of today, my little pony is trucking around her stall and trying to escape into the field any chance she gets. I must confess that I have let her out for 5 minutes or so while I clean her stall. Mainly because I can evaluate her movement better. She only seems tender when she has to turn or pivot on a front foot. The boots are making her life much better. Hopefully, we will continue on the road to improvement.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 5:35 pm:
Cara, we tend to have lively, very educating discussions about hooves, the conclusions many have come to is there is more than one way to skin a cat, and not all hooves fit into one mold, so sometimes you just need to play by ear. Vicki Z. and I both had horses founder this past winter, both were handled differently, I never had x-rays done, but can almost tell from Sam's hoof it was a pretty nasty founder, Vicki's horse showed little to no rotation and he seemed to recover slower than Sam, so it is very individual
Your ponies founder isn't horrible from the looks of the radiographs, the thin soles can be a bit of trouble, I have more problems with that than the founder "fall out" anymore. IF my farrier trims Hank wrong and leaves him on his sole he is sore for WEEKS. You seem to be doing the right things and willing movement on the ponies part with boots on may very well help him. I hand walked Hank for miles in his boots and pads and he seemed much better everytime I did.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010 - 7:47 pm:
Cara, the problem with the alfalfa is not the protein it is the energy density that will lead to increasing weight, more stress on the laminae and increasing insulin resistance. And congratulations on the rapid turn around of your pony. It is very encouraging.
DrO
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 5:26 pm:
Dr. O Et. Al.~I have some new questions about my pony. She has been steadily improving, albeit at a slow pace. I am still keeping her in the stall for most of the day, just turning her out for a couple of hours am/pm. I recently began to wean her off the Isoxuprine. This morning she was considerably stocked up in all four legs. Is it possible that this vasodilator was keeping this from happening these past 3 weeks and now that she is coming off this is happening? If so, should I put her back on it or decrease the rate at which I am tapering her down?
OK, now some hoof questions. It is time to address her feet and residual soreness. She is comfy in the boots and o.k.barefoot in her stall and field, but every now and then esp. when making turns she is ouchy. I have gotten different opinions from the vet and my farrier. Farrier says she needs heart bar shoes. Vet says it might be possible to manage her barefoot as long as she stays relatively comfy or that she might need regular shoes and rim pads. He stressed that the main issue is her sole depth. He believes that is why she is still sore. Can you look at this link and give me some opinions about how her feet look and if we left her barefoot what we can do to help the situation. Or, if the thoughts are to shoe her what recommendations do you have? Barefoot people, feel free to chime in here! Also, how does a pony that has never been sore after a trim or tenderfooted get that way? I lean toward the farrier getting a little aggressive with her last trim, but I might be wrong. The photos are 4 weeks from her last trim/onset of pain. To me the toes look long, and there is something funky on the outside of the right front sole view and this is the foot that seems to be the biggest source of pain for her. In the front view of both feet, you can actually see how her little legs have pitted where the boots were (stocking up issue).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1536773&l=31f373e61d&id=142082148
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 5:52 pm:
Ugh.....link doesn't seem to work. Will attempt to upload here....
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 5:53 pm:
Right front images 
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
left front images 
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 6:45 pm:
Cara the pictures didn't come up. I would disagree with your farrier about heart bars, they can cause more trouble then help. I personally have never been a fan of them.
Having been through founder with a thin soled horse I would have to agree with your vet, once out of the acute stage the thin soles make it hard to help get them sound. Sore on turns seems to be the last thing to leave and says your pony is still uncomfortable.
When Hank(my thin soled beast) foundered I did use routed out wide web shoes with a thin layer of equipak to protect his soles. He felt much better with them. After all I have been through I still don't know if barefoot would have been better for him during rehab. He was just so sore at the time I had to do something! His soles actually thickened up quite a bit in this package HOWEVER I think if I would have had a good farrier Hank could have stayed barefoot, he was being trimmed all wrong and not helping anything.
Thin soles are hard to deal with IMHO, you said your pony is in boots which in turn will soften that thin sole. That is why I finally went to shoes, his hoof was literally falling apart from being in boots to much.
IF I had to do it again (hopefully never) I would do the same thing I did to Sam, left him barefoot, locked him in a stall with $1000 worth of bedding and let him pick his comfort zone. When Sam got over the acute stage I beveled his hoof wall and rolled his toe and left him out during the day to move as he wanted (without bute) He recovered quite quickly considering the shape he was in....then again I don't believe he has thin soles either
Without seeing your pictures all I can say that has helped Hank remain barefoot for a year now is keeping his toe rolled and his wall beveled. Applying thrushbuster to his entire sole once a week to keep his sole hard. He actually is doing very well and I have been riding him on hard ground...gravel isn't the best but we'll get there eventually!
If you would like to read how HA and Dr.O. helped to get him to this point here is the threads YES all the way to part 12 I think....but he is sound, barefoot and his hooves never looked better! (except an abscess we are dealing with .
When a horse founders it takes awhile to get over all the things that happen to their hooves..patience
Here's part one... let me tell you I learned alot there are 12 parts under the hoof care...4 point trim article....to soundness
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/319545.html
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 7:21 pm:
Thanks Diane. I think I have read bits and pieces, but will pour over it in it's entirety tonight.
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 8:36 pm:
Diane~ can you see the images that I actually uploaded to the thread? Also, did you have issues with your horses stocking up while on stall rest?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 8:57 pm:
Yes I can see the pictures on the thread, but for me anyway they are not big enough to comment on.
Yes both horses stocked up Sam in back..he was stalled, Hanks FRONT fetlocks stocked up when he foundered, tho I'm still not clear why, I did not stall him. Seemed soon as he started getting better it slowly went away.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 15, 2010 - 3:50 pm:
Cara, our recommendations for exercise and shoeing are in the article.
As to to isoxsuprine it is unlikely to be related to your leg swelling problems. For more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Miscellaneous Drugs » Isoxsuprine. I am uncertain as to the nature of your swelling but the combination of inflammation from the founder and the lack of active exercise combine to make this a common event in a foundered horse. For more on diagnosing swellings in the legs see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Swellings / Localized Infection / Abscesses » Diagnosing and Assessing Swellings in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 15, 2010 - 9:12 pm:
Just want to toss in here, as someone with a horse with major rotation and soles that were, literally, like PAPER, that hospital plates really saved her. My farrier put them on for about 4 months when we couldn't keep her comfortable and 24 hour boots weren't an option. He left a key with me so I could unscrew them and treat abscesses etc. She was noticeably more comfortable in them. However that is a lot of hardware to throw on a barefoot horse and maybe too extreme in your case?... just one more experience for you :-) After she was stable and summer rolled around I put her on pea gravel and her feet seemed to love it.
The other thing we really thought made a difference in stimulating healthy new growth was a product called Formula4Feet. I know there isn't any proof that founder supplements do diddly but both my farriers were impressed at the rate of healthy hoof growth on this mare after starting on it. Probably just a glorified ration balancer but I'm hooked now.
Finally, my mare was extremely stocked up thoughout the winter while stall-bound (and even after she started getting a little turnout). I would hand walk her up and down the aisle to try and get fluids and what not moving, it never seemed to really bother her though.
Good luck!!
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Monday, Aug 16, 2010 - 8:49 am:
Thanks to all for the posts. I am glad to hear that my pony is not alone in her stocking up issue. I just thought it was odd that it took 3.5 weeks to surface, and that it coincided with withdrawal from isoxuprine. I have also been watching for pathological changes in the appearance of her hooves (associated with separation/necrosis whatever) and that just has not happened. Anyway, your insights have been most helpful!
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 5:55 pm:
So, I sure could use some more advice. My pony had such a great week last week. Then on Sunday p.m. I noticed that she was favoring her right front. The farrier was due out Monday morning, so I had him take a look. He said that she was reactive at the toe to the hoof testers and that this was just laminitis. I kept saying that this seemed more like an abscess since it is just in the right front. However, I got talked into his theory and let him put shoes and myron mcclane pads on her. I was told that we should see improvement in 72 hours. He also packed the feet with magic cushion and wrapped them. WELL, today the pony is walking around on her medial toe unwilling to put weight on the foot at all. Of course it screams abscess! Vet will be out tomorrow afternoon. Here are my questions:
Will x-rays show an abscess?
Have we done more harm than good with the shoes?
With her history and thin soles is pairing out a good idea?
I know that I read on here somewhere about bute and abscesses. Does it help with the pain for an abscess?
How common would something like a coffin bone fracture be?
Should I strangle or just fire my farrier?????
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 6:26 pm:
"Just laminitis?" I would far rather have it be an abscess.
I have not read all of what has happened recently with your pony as I have been out of town at a horse show but too much activity or trimming that thins the sole can cause a setback with laminitis as it did with my horse who had to go back on another course of NSAIDs and inactivity.
Personal opinion, but I don't like putting shoes on a horse that is still going through such a process.
Hope that things will resolve and turn around for you very soon.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 6:56 pm:
Cara, did I read this right? The farrier said it was "ONLY laminitis?" And, he put a show on it?!! I'd strangle the farrier for sure! Please re-read the article on Laminitis. Whether it is laminitis or an abscess, I'd pull her shoe and get her in soft pads and I'd start her on bute. I'd also see the vet. There's an article on abcesses and some posts that might help if that's what it is. I can't believe the guy put a shoe on her though.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 7:16 pm:
My vote--FIRE THE FARRIER! Let us know what your vet says, but Dr. O's Articles on laminitis and abscess will help with diagnosis and treatment. Best of luck.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 24, 2010 - 9:08 pm:
Cara, sounds like you are living my summer with Hank. He presented the same way, off on left front, I had the vet out and he pared Hanks thin sole, got a little drainage. I was glad he was NOT reactive in the toe, that can confuse the diagnosis with laminitis. One summer when I had my very bad farrier Hank had an abscess, he put shoes and pads on him and it was all down hill from there.
FME very rarely do abscesses show up on x-ray but a defect in the white line is usually where they start.
Bute seems to take a very little bit of the edge off of an abscess, doesn't help much.
I asked my vet if Hank could have fractured his coffin bone he was so painful with the abscess and it took a few days after paring to become right...he said no it's an abscess He sure acted like something was broke!
In the long run it probably wouldn't hurt to have x-rays taken you would know if your pony had any more rotation and how to trim her.. The abscess Hank had with the very bad farrier did show up on his x-rays...it popped out his coronary band and he was very painful until that happened, glad you are having your vet out...I have learned how to pull shoes due to Hanks abscess he$$...which is BTW quite common after a bout of laminitis or founder.
Hope your vet can help her tomorrow!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2010 - 4:51 am:
Hello Cara,
Taking your questions in order:
Will x-rays show an abscess? Not usually
Have we done more harm than good with the shoes? Probably not but they will have to be pulled to get to an abscess.
With her history and thin soles is pairing out a good idea? Abscesses get well fastest when treated like out article on abscesses recommends no matter what the sole thickness.
I know that I read on here somewhere about bute and abscesses. Does it help with the pain for an abscess? Not much.
How common would something like a coffin bone fracture be? For every hundred abscesses you might see a fracture.
DrO
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2010 - 6:10 am:
OK, so vet will be out today but I am now scared to pull the shoes for fear that she will be even more sore b/c they set the shoe back and rolled the toe way back. Won't this leave her standing on her sole~ again? This a.m. she seems less sore on the right front but now has heat and elevated dp in left. I am treating it like another episode of founder, back on all meds complete stall rest etc. Will x-rays be of benefit with the shoes still on? Could my farrier be right when he said that there might be an adjustment period to the new shoes and pads and to wait 72 hours? Dr. O thank you in advance for another round of question and answer.
Cara
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2010 - 7:32 am:
Cara when hank foundered and we put shoes and pads on he became VERY sore, he also had his toe taken way back, this in itself CAN start another round of laminitis. I left them on for a few days, but he didn't get much better. I did have them pulled after a few days. The problem with padding a thin soled foundered horse is you have to be VERY careful not to put any pressure on the sole with the padding, is it possible the padding is putting too much pressure on the coffin bone.
Your vet should be able to sort it out hopefully, let us know how it goes
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2010 - 9:48 am:
What did the vet say?
Sounds exactly like what happened to myriah after her first major founder. After I switched farriers, we put shoes and leather pads and that helped her for a week and then wham, acting like a broken leg. I called the new farrier in a panic and he came out and said without even testing that he was sure it was an abscess, pulled the right front pad and shoe and used a nifty heat seeking gadget to locate the exact spot of the abscess and pared just in that one tiny place. The thing exploded in his face (yuck) and that's when we went to hospital plates because there was no pressure on the sole the way they went on and I could take them off and treat abscesses myself. She was putting weight back on it the next day.
Side notes, he didn't touch the sole for about 6 months aside from draining the abscesses. She was too thin. He also did not pull back the toes very much immediately. He spent about 6-9 months pulling them back because he was concerned that anything too drastic would aggravate the situation until she was very stable. He just took some more off every 4-5 weeks.
I hope your pony improves, it seems each case is so individual.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 25, 2010 - 8:25 pm:
You have to remove the shoe to examine the sole Cara or you will continue to be in the dark as to what might be going on.
If it is felt the sole is too thin for normal exercise and the shoe cannot be put back on we have helpful advice at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Wall Cracks and Thin Sensitive Soles. As to radiographs that decision should be based on the exam. As to what "could be possible?" most things are possible. Let the exam findings direct the most likely diagnosis not the conjecture of what "might" be possible.
DrO
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Member:
ossabaw
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 26, 2010 - 10:02 am:
Vet did not make it out yesterday. But, pony is markedly improved. Not laying down, feet feel cool and dp not bounding. Lameness on RF 90% improved. I feel like this was not an abscess since the bute has had a remarkable response. I am curious about soft tissue injury though? I do think the pain from the shoeing was causing her to have a bit of a relapse in the laminitis, but I think/hope I got her out of pain quickly and stopped it. Bottom line, pony feels better today ! Thanks again everyone!
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 26, 2010 - 11:48 am:
Glad she's improving!
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 26, 2010 - 12:08 pm:
yay!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Aug 27, 2010 - 9:54 am:
Very good to hear!
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