| HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Endocrine System » Equine Metabolic SynDrOme and Insulin Resistance » |
| Discussion on EMS and the thyroid supplementation experiment | |
| Author | Message |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2010 - 12:41 pm: Time for another experiment...sorry Dr.O. Subjects: Flash 31 yo mare. Symptoms: VERY easy keeper, cresty neck, fat over rib cage, quit coming in season for the most part about 7 years ago (don't really miss that!) anhiDrOsis (which has partially resolved with the mineral supplements) Gets long, but healthy coat in the winter, sheds out entirely, but a little slow. Pot bellied and sway backed. No excessive urination OR drinking, matter of a fact she doesn't seem to drink enough. Nice hooves has NEVER foundered. She could possibly be PPID. MY goal with her: to see if she can loose a little weight and if she will brighten up a little, can't decide if she is just old and less energetic OR a little depressed. On no other meds, have her on free choice minerals, and a hoof supplement (since the other 2 are) Always on a low carb diet. No ridden exercise possible due to what I assume is arthritis. She is pasture sound. BCS 6. I don't know why, but for some reason I think this will help her more than the other 2. Subject: Sam: 24 yo arab cross gelding Symptoms: Poor Sam he has a lot going on, he is PPID since he is hirsute I guess. Tried pergolide for awhile but wasn't overly impressed, removed it a month ago. He is IR and has EMS (not sure if they are the same or not) Very prone to founder if not kept on a strict low carb diet. VERY easy keeper, has a cresty neck, fat lumps on his tail dock, over his ribs, behind his shoulder and down his thighs! Is a bit ribby otherwise (when kept on a strict diet) he will balloon up easily, almost overnight if not careful and so will his fat lumps. At the moment eerily sound on any terrain, hooves look quite bad from his bouts of laminitis and his bad founder last year...they are improving slowly. BCS I guess would be a 5 with the "fat lumps" it's hard to judge. exercised occasionally, very rideable (at the moment). Right now he isn't showing any PPID symptoms. My goal: To see if it will help with the fat lumps, his IR, and I am curious to see if maybe he will shed with the addition of it (one can always be optimistic) and not get fat over winter. Subject: Hank 13 yo gelding, son of Falsh What can I say about Hank, he definitely has the thrifty gene! Putting him on thyroid meds (as per my vet) has always scared me, he is a bit of a "busy" horse anyway and I certainly didn't want to rev up his metabolism and make him more nuts! So I figured since I didn't ride in the winter maybe now would be a good time to try it so he can MAYBE not be obese come spring. I rode him yesterday, and I sure hope this is one of those temporal events, he was wound for sound  We had a VERY VERY energetic ride! he did listen to me, but boy he was UP! (was kind of fun) hoping the change in weather did that! Symptoms: Chronic founder, VERY easy keeper, cresty neck, a bit of a lumpy butt. A bit nuts crappy hooves. Even when exercised and on a pretty strict diet his "symptoms" remain not quite as bad but there. VERY hard to keep sound(in the hooves), unlike the other 2. He has a BIG QH 15.1hh build and should look ok at #1000, but he doesn't, need to keep him at or less then #1000 or he will founder almost guaranteed, that is a HUGE struggle with him, almost "starving" him and exercise is about the only way and that is iffy. BCS 6 My goal: To see if he can actually be fed like a normal horse over the winter and not gain excessive amounts of weight, so spring founder would be less likely. All 3 are fed together, they don't bicker over the food so they get almost the same, Hank probably gets a little more towards the end, but he is bigger. They get PURE grass hay soaked when weather cooperates 10-12#'s each, 1 cup alfalfa pellets, hoof supplement, Grazing when not lush or stressed grass. Ration balancer in winter (crappy hay) that's it! I did weigh them and took pics the week before I started the thyroid meds. which BTW is my vets idea, tho I was always curious if it would help any. Their diets will remain the same. I just hope Hank doesn't become a nut case again or he will be going off it! Note: I am not doing this so I can ditch my management, I don't see that ever being possible (tho the vet says he has horses on it and they can graze normally with the addition of thyroid meds) however that is not my goal (would be nice tho!) My goal is to maintain what I have worked so hard for and hopefully help me with the last tweeks of the IR symptoms....We'll see. I am going to weigh them weekly, but more importantly I am curious if their "ems" LOOK will improve further. Getting rid of the clover was one of the best things I have ever done for the 3. of them. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2010 - 3:17 pm: Here are pics of the subjects taken today and weighed. They have been on the thyroid meds just since Tues. Oct. 26th. All are getting 1 scoop...12mgs.Hank...sigh I can never get that pig to bring his head up! He weighed in at 1018#'s . I do have to take his winter coat into consideration, while he looks quite sleek, he is getting quite a bit of the winter woolies going. He has weighed #974#'s on a regular bases all summer, and without the winter hair I believe he would still weigh about that.  This is a pic of his neck from Oct. 3, it is about the same  Flash, I am not aware how long it would take thyroid meds to work, but she seems much spunkier, looks much better, and walks better  These may be one of those temporal events, so we'll see how that plays out...her neck even looks a little better She weighed in at #794's. The leg she is weighting in front as she walks is the twice bowed tendon leg, somehow that old broad managed to buck the odds again, her fetlock doen't even DrOp anymore... she has had a very slight limp off and on tho. Right now it is gone. Keeping/getting weight off her would be beneficial.  Sam, he is holding his own, he has his long hair going on, but is doing well otherwise. He weighed the same as Flash #794's. I can easily feel everyones ribs, I would like to very much keep it that way this winter! and maybe get rid of the residual IR look. 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 2010 - 12:59 pm: Here's what I have about 11 days into the experiment. They are all getting a heaping scoop of the thyroid meds. Their diets remain pretty much the same, except I am not soaking their hay anymore and I am giving them a bit more at night since it is getting down in the lower 20's. Everything else including grazing has remained the same since I started the experiment.Hank weighed in at #988 Flash weighed in at #757 Sam weighed in at #744 Hank had me a bit worried the first couple days he seemed a bit hyper and our ride from above was VERY UP I have since ridden him a couple times and he was awesome! He is not hyper anymore and actually seems a little more subdued.... don't know what to make of that... but he isn't as nuts as he used to be...dunno how the meds would do that so may be one of those coincidences. Also oddly enough he doesn't seem like he is starved all the time.. I can see his ribs in the right light, would still like to see more weight DrOpped, his neck seems about the same, maybe a bit better, his butt lumps have disappeared.   Sam has had the most drastic weight loss, I guess that's good since he is quite IR. He looks good and seems to feel good...removed the pergolide quite awhile ago about 6 weeks I think and still no return of PPID symptoms (other than his hair) But his hair is doing strange things now He has these hairy dapples going on, his neck is about normal, his fat butt lumps are better, his thigh bumps are about gone. This shows his weird hairy dapples and really doesn't do them justice, all the horses are very dusty! It's been quite dry here.   Flash really does seem to have perked up a bit. She is even fighting back when the boys play musical hay leafs. She has a little more spring in her step and doesn't seems as depressed or tired whatever it was.   All 3 are as sound as they get 
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 4:11 pm: Thanks Nancy, it appears they are loosing weight slowly, they are now on 24/7 turnout on the grass too. Hanks on and off DP's have disappeared. Sam is VERY sound even with his ugly hooves. Flash seems more awake I weigh them on the weekends with the tape, with the winter hair still coming on fast and furious I don't know how accurate it will be. Sam isn't growing his off color long cushings coat yet, I looked at my pics from last year and he started it right around now so will be curious how that plays out...He is VERY fluffy tho!!
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 5:02 pm: Here's some video's of me TRYING to bring the horses off the big field. I am so proud of how Hank is moving, he is so loose and free. Sam was being a little negative about coming in. These 2 have been chronic founders with some moderate to major rotation!!! They are barefoot and can be ridden with no problem. The old mare, while her hocks don't bend the best, she is 31 yo. with a twice bowed tendon  So I think she looks darn good for an old broad. The 2 EMS quite foundered boys (with the ugly hooves) I think the HA folk, Dr.O. and my experiments have finally gotten the "kids" right! Hanks wonderful canter, it's a joy to ride, have to get the 2 boys together before they come in! https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/TheKidsComingIn#5538411566427214482 Sam being a bit reluctant about the whole thing https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/TheKidsComingIn#5538410809724290210 OK OK we get the hint. https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/TheKidsComingIn#5538409467830180338 The matron bringing up the rear https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/TheKidsComingIn#5538411936864054994 |
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 8:05 pm: Really, I didn't think Sam looked off at the trot, I did clean their hooves when they came in and Sam is shedding his frogs and they are quite tender looking.His trot is a trot from Hades, I have never ridden such a rough trot. It's one of the reasons I quit riding him . He moves like a pony. His canter is nice and smooth tho. They all appear in good weight, I'll let you know how it progresses. |
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 7:31 am: Thanks LL I forgot Hanks neck picture for the week, it does look a little better.  And my magnificent helpers (the slow down feeders)  
|
| Member: kpaint |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 8:17 am: Vicki they are getting pala-tech thyroid supp, the same as thyro-l, just a different brand.I really didn't want to resort to this , but if it helps me keep their weight down I guess it is worth it. I plan on "weaning" them off it come spring or after the spring grass is less lush, depends on if it helps or not. It seems to be, but I think it is a little to early to tell.
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: vickiann |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 6:30 pm: Vicki those fat pads are very telling in my boys, if they start blowing up something has to change and quickly. Just to be clear these guys are still being maintained on a low carb diet. I wish I could throw caution to the wind, but know better. I think Dr.O. has some information in his fat horse article about thyroid supplementation. I posted it in Sam's CD thread, from what I understand it can help with weight loss and insulin Resistance. The program being starting with a high dose and slowing weaning them off. Here is an excerpt from a very good article from vet med Treatment Equine metabolic synDrOme should be managed by reducing caloric intake in obese horses, decreasing the starch and sugar content of the diet, increasing exercise, and limiting or eliminating access to pasture. However, medical therapy becomes necessary when IR persists after management practices have been adjusted. Medical therapies also can be used as short-term interventions to accelerate weight loss or improve insulin sensitivity while management changes are being implemented. This approach reduces the likelihood of additional laminitis episodes occurring before management strategies have become effective. Levothyroxine sodium (Thyro L, LLOYD, Inc., Shenandoah, IA) can be administered to horses with EMS to accelerate weight loss and improve insulin sensitivity. Mean body weight decreased and insulin sensitivity increased when levothyroxine sodium was administered to healthy mares at dosages ranging from 24 to 96 mg/day over 8 weeks.46 Long-term effects of levothyroxine on body weight and insulin sensitivity also have been evaluated in healthy mares over a 48-week period.47,48 Levothyroxine sodium was administered to mares at a dosage of 48 mg/day, and glucose dynamics were measured at 0, 16, 32, and 48 weeks. Echocardiographic evaluations, complete blood count, and plasma biochemical analyses were also performed at the same times to assess the safety of levothyroxine. A greater than twofold increase in mean insulin sensitivity was detected, and this mirrored a reduction in body weight. No adverse health effects were detected. It is essential for horses to be placed on a controlled diet when levothyroxine is prescribed because weight loss is harder to achieve if the horse is permitted free access to pasture. Levothyroxine sodium is administered by mouth or in the feed at a dosage of 48 mg/day for 3 to 6 months to induce weight loss, which is equivalent to 4 teaspoons per day. Smaller ponies and Miniature horses can receive 24 mg levothyroxine sodium per day for the same time period. Treated horses should be weaned off levothyroxine sodium once ideal body weight has been attained by reducing the dosage to 2 teaspoons (24 mg) orally per day for 2 weeks and then 1 teaspoon (12 mg) orally per day for 2 weeks.48 Measured serum T4 concentrations are often elevated when levothyroxine is being administered, but concentrations vary considerably within and between horses. Serum T4 concentrations often range between 40 and 100 ng/mL in treated horses, indicating that levothyroxine sodium is being given at a supraphysiologic dosage. However, clinical signs of hyperthyroidism such as sweating or tachycardia have not been observed in treated horses.46,49,50 Benefits of treating horses with levothyroxine at lower dosages for longer periods have not been evaluated scientifically. However, it was recently demonstrated that administration of levothyroxine sodium at a dosage of 48 mg/day for 14 days prevented healthy mares from developing transient IR in response to the intravenous infusion of endotoxin.51 This finding suggests that levothyroxine exerts a protective effect on insulin sensitivity when horses are challenged with endotoxin. Insulin-sensitizing drugs including metformin and supplements such as chromium and magnesium are also being evaluated as treatments for IR in horses. Positive responses to metformin have recently been reported.52 This drug is available as Glucophage (Merck Santé S.A.S., Darmstadt, Germany) and is distributed in the United States by Bristol-Myers Squibb Company. In the aforementioned study, metformin was administered to insulin-resistant horses and ponies at a dosage of 15 mg/kg twice daily by mouth. Proxy measurements of insulin sensitivity improved in treated animals, without the adverse effect of hypoglycemia, but long-term results were variable. Metformin is a biguanide drug that enhances the action of insulin within tissues at the postreceptor level and inhibits gluconeogenesis within the liver. Results of this first clinical trial look promising, and metformin represents an option for the short-term management of leaner insulin-resistant horses. However, safety studies have not been performed to date in horses, so this must be considered before the drug is prescribed long-term. If you have a horse that you suspect or has EMS here is the link to the whole article, it's long, but a VERY good read. https://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/62824 4 |
| Member: vickiann |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: vickiann |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 2010 - 8:06 pm: This experiment really has me questioning so may things about my horses. First off I decided to up their thyroid meds to "suggested" levels for weight loss...the 2 oldies being basically ponies and Hank just making horse status. They have been getting 24mg's instead. As far as weight loss with the tape, I can't go by that, too much hair coming on.According to LOOKs and bcs I would say they have lost some weight. It SEEMS to have had different effects on them. It really does seem to be keeping Hanks weight down, more so then the other 2. He WAS the fattest of the 3 of them also. His neck looks better, he looks better. His on again off again DP's still have not returned, morning check of them always brings a grin and a I'll be damned. He isn't anymore hyper than he ever has been. He is moving great, soft or hard ground. Sam.... this really confuses me and I could go on and on about his Cushings disease,pergolide, IR, and EMS, but will try to stay with the pertinent parts... and a FEW of my off the wall observations. I tried a stint with pergolide on Sam for about a year, according to "symptoms" he is definitely a Cushings horse. I decided to take Sam off pergolide about 2 mos. ago, It took great thought as I don't want Sam uncomfortable, but his EMS symptoms seem to be more of a problem then his PPID. He also didn't seem to tolerate it well. Pergolide does nothing for EMS. Recent research seems to point to Thyroid supplementation can and does. Sam is doing AWESOME, his PPID symptoms are NOT returning, He is galloping and looks good for an old codger. His cushings coat is NOT coming in still. He had a good start on it this time last year and the 8 years before. I don't know if this is the right spot to put this, but according to everything wrong with Sam he IS a PPID horse. The questions that go through my mind is WHY does he not get worse UNLESS I am lax with his diet. PPID is suppose to be a progressive disease. Sam has been hirsute (the one clinical sign considered a bell weather for PPID) for so long I can't remember how long it has actually been, I'm guessing 9-10 yrs. I know he was when we moved here about 8 yrs. ago. and I know I clipped him a few years before we moved here. Here's my conjecture as Dr.O. calls it. I am starting to suspect that Sam is not a PPID horse Even tho his hirsutism would say he is. I think he is a terribly metabolic horse with PPID not being involved. I also think (I hope Dr.O. doesn't "yell" at me), that PPID is over diagnosed and mistaken for a VERY metabolic horse. Even if you read through some threads right here on HA some people had said once they got their horses diets right and their "weird fat" went away they shed out. I think the thyroid meds MAY help these terribly metabolic horses more so then pergolide. I think I stated in here a few times that my vet said if I could get Sam in good shape he would shed out. A couple years ago when he was in good shape he darn near did. My goal is to get Sam back into good shape and with the help of the thyroid meds keep his IR under control... and see if he will shed out at least enough that he doesn't break every clipper I try when shaving him. Other than that Sam is doing GREAT, happy, sound, rolling, muddy and enjoying life. He is in good weight BCS 5 some weird fat hanging on. The weird fat patches IS where his hair is much thicker...tis very strange...it is normal where there is no weird fat. Flash... She has come to life a bit, she always acted tired (maybe depressed) not sure. I was LMAO when I turned them out on the back hill tonight. She ALWAYS stays at the bottom of the hill, doesn't have the energy or the want to gallop like the nutty boys all over the place. The last few days she has been, throwing her head and having fun.. She is rolling in the mud again, and just seems more content and energetic. All of this stuff most definitely could be coincidences. Sam's cushings hair coming in Nov. last year. you can see it starting on his chest and side..the orange hair.  his hair the year before pic above.. Nov. (he looked bad!) Didn't have his diet tight enough.  Sam tonight, he did roll earlier in the mud and I didn't brush him . Not an orange long hair on his body, there has been every year at this time, sometimes worse then others. I searched high and low for a sign of his CD coat tonight and found nothing YET  
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2010 - 9:01 am: A little over a month into this, the horses are all doing well. We decided to put a big bale in a few days ago, thought I would let them at it 24/7 didn't work I don't think. They really don't seem to eat much of it, but Hank seemed to get a tiny bit hoof sore on the frozen, rutted ground, don't know if it was coincidence or not, but not playing that game, so let them on it at night and let them look for food during the day, there is still a little pasture out there and they keep moving, important for these types. Once we have a good snow cover I may try it 24/7 again. They don't move much anyway once the ground has poor footing and I don't really like them to. Hank is back to being sound, his hooves were over packed with mud and lime and may have been the cause of his "tentativeness" he was fine once cleaned.It appears they are all losing a little weight, not massive amounts by any means, but slow but sure. Hank BCS is a low 6, his neck does look better I think. Flash and Sam BCS 5, Sam still hasn't had a reappearance of his PPID symptoms His light orange cushings coat still isn't starting, he is quite hairy, more than he "should be" but at this point it seems like "normal" hair. He hasn't gotten a "laminitis ring" in his hoof since I started this. I think this does help him with his IR issues. I decided I am going to skip the ration balancer this winter and go with the high point grass from horse tech... less calories, less nsc's. It also has the prebiotics and probiotics since they are on a big bale and their square bales are less than ideal this year, figured it wouldn't hurt to keep the bowels working and additional vit/min. for easy keepers. So anyway so far so good! |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 29, 2010 - 10:01 am: I was a little off, when I let the horse out to pasture today I could SEE everyone's ribs They still have a slight covering of fat(PERFECT Weight for them), those winter coats are quite deceiving, even when feeling for ribs. Dr.O. if you read this what would your suggestion be to "hold" their weights??? Not sure what the protocol is . Do I slowly start backing off the meds OR feed them more????? I hadn't planned on weaning them off until around Mar. I do have them on their continuous diet and their hay isn't the greatest. |
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: ajudson1 |
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Nov 30, 2010 - 4:32 pm: Dr.O I do give them more than 6-10#'s. The 6-10#'s is what I have to give them to loose/maintain weight. I do allow them to graze when I THINK it is safe...yet the weight never comes off, and the IR symptoms persist... weird fat patches, Bounding DP's accompanied by lines in the hoof and flaring, while my micro managing has become much easier and getting rid of the clover has really really helped and we all had a very good year!!! I can not exercise them much in the winter, which is key with Hank and Sam. There is no grazing in the winter, and the hay I have now isn't the greatest. My hope was to maintain what I have worked so hard for over the last couple years... and to maybe level them off at a BCS of 5. Without the thyroid meds they would have to be maintained by "starving" them in the winter.Am I being silly?? is this just a vicious circle and I'm "chasing my tail"? Don't think I haven't wondered At this point I seem to have the rest of the year down pretty good, but winter brings it's own set of problems..quite often. Thanks, I appreciate your help/thoughts |
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 8:57 pm: About a week into the dreaded month of Dec. frozen rutted ground, tip toeing horses, snow, ice, frigid temps, starve or not to starve....that's how winter usually goes Sam pulling his I am going to die now stint last year. After much thought I decided to keep the thyroid supplementation the same for now, let them at the big bale 24/7... no pasture...snow. Though Hank and Sam do go out and paw for morsels occasionally. Sam has been off pergolide for over 2 mos. now, PPID symptoms still not returning. The boys were racing around today and having fun in the snow...so far so good, I love having them on a big bale, sure makes my life much easier. wind chills are suppose to be -16 tonight and I don't have to starve them. Their weight loss seems to have stabilized and they all seem to be in perfect weight...so far. 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 8:34 am: Well the horses continue on their thyroid supplementation, it's interesting that the more research that comes out it shows levothyroxine does help with IR and horses that hardly loose weight unless starved.Sam being my most interesting in the experiment. He obviously has PPID, yet he does much better on levothyroxine then he did pergolide. his reoccurring low grade laminitis has stopped occurring, so far any way. Absolutely none of his PPID symptoms have come back, not even his cushings coat, the lines in his hooves stopped exactly when I started this. His hooves are still a mess from his earlier continued laminitis attacks. I will try to take pics later today to show where the lines stopped. He is VERY sound, even hard ground doesn't bother him. I'm very curious to see if he sheds out and if he does wonder what that would implicate, but I am getting ahead of myself there! Hank and Flash are "holding there own" and so far are having a good winter. I have a big bale of pure grass hay out and leave them at it 24/7. they are not loosing or gaining weight and most definitely don't seem as starved as they always THOUGHT they were. They also get a cup of alfalfa pellets a day, the free choice minerals and salt and that is it. I will try to get pics of sams ugly hooves and the horses BSC later today. I think the levothyroxine helps Sam way more than the pergolide did which is interesting. I suppose that would implicate treating/mamging his IR plays a bigger factor in his health than treating the PPID symptoms, since the PPID symptoms have not returned with the removal of pergolide and the addition of levothyroxine. Pergolide did not agree with Sam and I did not see much improvement after the initial improvement, my options were to up his pergolide or try something else. It is so hard to decide whether the symptoms are from too much pergolide or not enough I decided to try the removal method first since it can always be added back if necessary. While I understand that pergolide can and does help some horses, I also felt that it is a powerful drug that effects horses differently and can have some undesirable side effects, which Sam was experiencing. Hank is a little nuts, but he always is, so I don't know if it is his normal nuts or not. He needs exercise and I do not do anything much with the horses in the winter. He always has too much energy, but has been well behaved when handling him and working around him. If santa brings me a saddle (I Have been good this year!) I will get a ride or 2 on him and know for sure if it is normal nuts or more than normal nuts
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 10:17 am: Thanks Lilo, sometimes I think I'm talking to myself...but that's ok, I do it all the time! I'm sure your dry weather helps you out, we face lush grass about 6 mos. of the year. With the clover removal the horses do tolerate grazing MUCH better, but I still try to be careful, seems after a rain it really gets dangerous for them so I lock them up for a few days in the dry lot.Prevention seems to be the key, not treatment after the fact, learning the "triggers" is very beneficial and INDIVIDUAL. I think I am finally getting a grip on all of this, it has been very challenging. I had no founders this year finally and the horses lived pretty "normally" for the most part...well there is still a couple weeks left According to Sam's hooves tho he did have some low grade laminatic problems, and he did get a little ouchy a couple times, but nothing full blown. Since starting the thyroid meds and removing the pergolide he hasn't had an episode, fall, early winter is usually one of the times he does....last year being a doozy I don't want to revisit
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 11:29 am: Here is pics of Hank..he was tired LOL, so his head was up for once! His neck is real close to normal, those of you that know what a blimp he is should see he is in good weight for him (even with the hair) His body seems to be loosing the IR look  His hoof showing no founder rings for the year  Sam He still has his dark coat..not the ugly, long, orange cushings coat! Pretty thick...but "normal"   The top deep ring on his hoof is when I would assume I took him off pergolide and started the thyroid meds (the timing seems right)...around the end of Sept. he was weaned off pergolide. He had a snow ball in his hoof when I took this his hooves are bad tho.  Old lady Flash..she is in VERY good weight, as sound as she gets. She had snowballs too! At least Hanks flat foot doesn't hold snow! there's a bright side to everything LOL 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 11:45 am: I am not as nuts as my mom says! 
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 1:07 pm: Nancy I hope that Patty B. reads this as she had some interesting thoughts on her horse regarding hunger and IR. and I think she may have been on track. Did you see her thread about Ziggy a few years ago?I think Sam is a very metabolic horse, more so then the other 2, Hank is a close second and since he is younger, getting this under control may help him not to be doomed to PPID or other things in his twilight years. My horses big bale isn't great, they definitely don't attack it. It is clean and mold free so good enough! two years ago I tried giving them big bales and after a month the weight did start creeping up...very noticeably. It was much better LOOKING hay and I had to lock them off it during the night so they wouldn't get too fat. they never moved from that bale. I see hoof prints going out to the big pasture so they are staying mobile even with access to the big bale. hopefully Hank won't start his non-stop pawing for grass, his hooves take a beating when he does that. I think Sam is going to remain on his levothyroxine it really seems to help him with his IR issues.. he is on 24mgs. two scoops. I am very impressed how his top growth is coming in on his hooves, and how much his coat has improved. He did get the orange, long, cushings coat even on pergolide. His coat is better on the levothroxine...which is strange in itself! Hank and Flash I am going to play by ear, my vet thinks Hank should remain on it and if he isn't any more nutty than normal I think I will keep him on it too. Diet and exercise is the mainstay, but I sure am enjoying a little help
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Dec 17, 2010 - 2:23 pm: Unfortunately every drug known to man/horse has risks, we must weigh the risk Vs. reward. We are not locked into continuing it's use and if the reward becomes less than the risk I will remove it.If I feel the IR issues have evened out, I may try weaning them off it. It seems protocol at the moment anyway is 6 mos. then try weaning them off. My vet called this morning with something regarding the cows and I told him Sam was still doing great with out the pergolide, he is determined Sam is going to founder badly again without it, he has moved it up to March now since Dec. is half over with no incidents. The levothyroxine is not going to keep Sam from foundering NOR is pergolide unless my management is up to par.I think the levothyroxine just helps me beat the odds a bit and keep his insulin levels where they should be... time will tell as always! If I have any extra cash after Christmas I will check his insulin levels again. Here is a link to Patty's discussion it is under behavioral issues so you would probably have a hard time finding it! https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/303404.html |
| Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2010 - 9:57 am: Hank looks much better Diane!And boy do you have that right about the prevention. Ever since Tango gave me a scare once with some sore hoofies and pounding DP's I have taken the tough route of limiting pasture, keeping those hoofs tweaked, and trying to KEEP the weight off instead of having to take it off. I have been following this mainly because I have been wondering about my mare WIllow and whether she just has "old age" weight gain or if it's something more. You've given me some ideas for spring Vet questions. BTW, I get accused of talking to myself all time. My answer is I have to in order to talk to someone intelligent, ;-).
|
| Member: vickiann |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 2, 2011 - 3:03 pm: Well we made it through Dec. with no disasters. Waiting now to see if Sam will start shedding around the 3rd week of Jan. like the other 2. He has a "normal coat, but much Nothing like his thicker than Hanks and a little thicker than Flashes. They are on their last big bale for the year, I tell ya what an easy and cheap way to feed them during the bitter cold, my 3 are going to go through 2 big bales, one bale lasted them a month $25 If that would have been squares the cost would have been over $150 for a month!!!! quite a savings. They haven't lost anymore weight, seem to be holding their own. Once this bale is done it is time to get down to a little weight loss to get ready for spring and the worst of out bad weather should be behind us ( I HOPE). Sam is still the one that continues to amaze me on the levothyroxine, his hooves are still growing in well, no PPID symptoms have returned. he has rock crushers, ugly as they are. His teary eyes are gone (he had them year round) his mysterious back end lameness has seemed to resolved. Hank OTOH has been tippy toeing around a lot since the snow melted and the frozen rutted ground reappeared, hopefully it won't turn into anything serious. Flash is doing really well for an old lady. About a week ago her arthritis seemed to flare a little so I gave her a gram of bute and she has been fine since. Under all the hair I would put them at an average of 5.5 bcs. When I rode hank the other day I actually took the girth up 2 holes from where it usually is. The 2 oldies enjoying the smorgasbord  Hank  Flash with her best friend Frosty the calf, she lets the calf suck on her mane!  Close up of Sam's coat, little dusty, but normal, no cushings hair. 
|
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2011 - 8:00 am: Middle of Jan. I remain impressed how well the horses are doing.I can feel ribs, they look and act good. The 2 older one really seem to benefit from it. Sam is handling the hard ground like it isn't there. He acts like a spunky arab as he should! He still hasn't gotten any more rings in his hoof. They are still quite ugly tho! His PPID symptoms remain under control, he seems quite normal He loves to roll in the snow and mud, I have been so happy to see him do that, he had quit rolling while on pergolide and I found that a bad sign. Sam is on two scoops a day. I think Sam will remain on this. Flash is much more "with it" she doesn't stand around with her head hanging looking tired or depressed or whatever the problem was. She also is rolling again and keeping up with the boys pretty well. The other day hubby said why don't you feed them poor horses Flash is up on the big hill pawing(they have a big bale), I said no she isn't she never tramples through the snow to climb the hill in the snow. There she was we both laughed when she came RUNNING down the hill with the boys. I do cringe a bit when she does stuff like that, but she seems fine and happy! Handling the cold, wet and upper midwest weather without any problems so far! Her weight seems good. She has her old lady body, but it seems to be working fine for now. She is on a heaping scoop.. her and Sam would be considered ponies. I think she will remain on it too. Hank is holding his own as far as weight, I can feel his ribs, he looks good and healthy. He had a couple of days of sore feet when the ground turned hard and jagged, but got over it fairly quickly. His hooves are in good shape (for him) and the flaring and stretched WL really seems to be staying under control without my constant attention. He is on 2 scoops a day. I don't know if I will keep him on it since he is Much younger than the old cronies or not. I probably will try weaning him off it. He does get exercise and I can usually keep his EMS under control if he is exercised regularly. Their diets are free choice grass hay, a half cup of alfalfa pellets mixed with a handful of whole oats twice a day with a sprinkle of Iodized salt. Free choice minerals and a salt block. That's it for now. I have researched this further and found that older horses thyroids can get less active in their golden years. I don't have the research saved, but it was scientific I will try to find it again later, and see what Dr.O. makes of it. |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 15, 2011 - 10:23 am: Me too lilo I think I will have Sam's insulin tested again the end of the month and IF it is in normal range (which would be a miracle) I may wean them all off it and see where we stand.
|
| Member: frances |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: kpaint |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 16, 2011 - 5:49 pm: Vicki you asked me further up They are getting levothyroxine. As Dr.O. called it an artificial hormone same as people/ dogs/cats take for low functioning thyroid.
|
| Moderator: DrO |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2011 - 8:05 am: Well that sounds better than artificial hormone. I didn't think it was "artificial" but took your word for it Whatever it is, it is working Here is the paper I found that states older horses thyroid's slow down a bit...4th paragraph. The funny thing about Sam is he does/did show most every symptom of a thyrodectized horse, if he sheds it will make me wonder. https://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2010_V407_V408.pdf |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 8:46 am: SO it is minus 17 and the windchill is 32 below. The older horses and Hank were waiting at the gate for their food covered from head to tail in frost. Whinnying, bucking, rearing ect. even with their stilts on. They all had 2 inch ice balls in their hooves, I had to knock them out with a hammer they were so hard, and that wasn't easy!Cold intolerance isn't there, they were all sound when the ice balls were removed (very frozen hard ground) Sam is doing awesome I am now torn whether I should slowly remove the levothyroxine or leave them on it, 6 mos. will be up in March. It sure is nice to have "normal" horses, BUT would they be normal without it??? They are getting free choice grass hay and "holding their own", and a pittance of alfalfa pellets for hard feed. |
| New Member: briggai |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 6:50 pm: Hi gail welcome to the world of EMS. I have struggled with this for YEARS. I want to reiterate that thyroid supplementation is not a substitute for managing these guys, not a magic bullet by any means, I maintain my horses on a low carb diet, they only get a handful of alfalfa pellets for "hard feed" and the same for treats! Their grazing is monitored very closely and exercise if possible is VERY important. I have/had a problems with winter laminitis also.. well laminitis pretty much year round, Sam had a VERY bad bout last winter. I am trying at this point to let them live semi normally out of the dry lot. A lot of trial an error I have had! It seems the research shows that thyroid supplementation can help regulate insulin, but remember that no drug comes without risks and you should discuss it with your vet. Dr O's articles are very good, my struggles are in all of them from founder to fat horse diets...I am slowly learning tho! Good Luck with your horse |
| Member: silver |
|
| New Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 8:29 am: Gail I do understand your frustration more than you know. The levothyroxine is not going to make your horse become not sore. It is an addition to low carb diet, when diet alone doesn't seem to get them where they need to be.Last year a few of us had winter founders, I don''t know what caused Sam's for sure, he foundered badly in all 4 also I thought he was a goner and so did the vet. There are so many things, if your horse doesn't founder in the warmer mos. is it possible he has thin soles and can't tolerate hard ground? (if you have hard ground) Hank is like that He got a little foot sore twice this winter when the ground was hard and jagged. PREVENTION is the key here. I monitor Hank closely in the winter, try to keep his hoof optimal (for him) If he starts tippy toeing and doesn't seem to get over it, I locked him on soft shavings until he did get over it. It really didn't take long at all this year thankfully. If his DP's are kabooming something has to change for sure! We did not get to this point this year. Do you have any boots or anything to protect your horses soles until he can recover? One thing I learned if they are on bute and keep moving around because they feel better from it more damage can and probably will be done. Learned that the hard way! FME with winter founder or any founder, with these types is to get their carbs as low as possible (can you soak his hay) that would probably help a lot, get him off hard feed (alfalfa pellets or timothy pellets) and not much. I soak mine so they poof up and add the meds, they love them. Winter grass has brought on a dandy founder with Hank, so would avoid that if possible. Removing the clover from my pasture was truly the best thing I ever did. So you see I have done just about everything in my power to keep them from foundering with out the levothyroxine, and it worked last year I won't say it was easy! Very careful monitoring of DP's and weight, observation of what sets them off... that list is fairly long LOL. BUT avoidance of this stuff has finally got them out of they dry lot and fairly "normal" with no laminitis last year. (after Sam's winter founder) The levothyroxine is just a small addition to my program and that was more to try to level out their insulin resistance, I do believe it helped ALONG with careful management and observation. Dr.O.'s article on EMS and IR is very good.I live by it, with a few twists. Let us know how it goes with your horse.
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: kpaint |
|
| New Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 12:15 pm: I agree with Nancy, I have been trying the KISS method tho. Right now my horses aren't getting any supplements, not even a vit. supplement. The main reason being my pocketbook! Everyone is doing great...so far. I have no big triggers for them in the winter here tho. snow covers the grass, as long as they don't show any symptoms I let them paw through the snow for morsels. They seem fine with that this year, but for the most part there has been a lot of snow and they have to paw for a half an hour before they find grass! Hank foundered in a winter where there was no snow cover and I hadn't eliminated the clover at that time. I am going to put them on some supplements for spring, whether it's a waste of money I honestly don't know, but I am trying to stay up with the latest research on the subject and it would seem short-chain fructo-oligosaccharides may help with these guys. I also am going to put them on a Mg supplement for the "risky time of year", and salt is important too IMHO. You don't seem to have a problem with other times of the year other than winter? If that is the case I would look into protection from the hard ground. My problem is pretty much year round unless I literally starve them or used to be anyway! Right now I just have harvest salt out for them, they don't really touch it much in the winter, about March it starts disappearing fast and they start biting the salt block off... dunno why! I have my theories, but that is what they are theories LOL. |
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 12:28 pm: Gail I had really good luck with the easy boot RX, as long as you get the right size they are easy on and off. I hand walked them in them as long as they weren't painful. They made Hank and Sam quite comfortable.If you can possibly soak your hay for half an hour or better that would help too (pour the water off). When it was cold I had one of those heated muck buckets and used that... a pain but well worth it. Sam started to get much better very quickly once I started doing that. It does reduce the carbs, and they seem to like it. Unfortunately until he started getting better I really cut him back and only gave him soaked hay and a handful of alfalfa pellets....his insulin was very high for some reason... we haven't looked back since then! I soak their hay in the non-frozen months now too, I don't know if they need it, but can't hurt I think the levothyroxine probably works fairly quickly on their system. |
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 12:51 pm: Yes I think they run a LITTLE small. I just rasped Sam's and Hanks toes off to make them fit LOL. They needed it anyway Those boots were the only ones that didn't trash their hooves ( I LOVE them), they seemed to stay very dry in them. I always sprinkled a little medicated gold bond powder in to help with that also + it made them slip on very easy
|
| New Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 7:54 am: Hi Gail, I live in the "sticks" too! I give mine alfalfa pellets, I personally like them better in this situation. They have a low glycemic value, but more protein. Alfalfa cubes would be ok too. I used to use them when I couldn't find pellets. I soaked both pellets or cubes, more to avoid choke then anything.When Sam foundered last winter it was well below zero, I thought his hay would freeze solid but it didn't, soaking it was the problem until I got the heated muck bucket... I REALLY think this will help you if you can do it . I soaked his for a good hour and poured all the sugary juice off and rinsed it again! Of course you will have a big ice patch where you do that!!! I gave him 1.5% of what his Body weight SHOULD be per day. If it was REAL cold a little more. Sometimes split in 3 feedings sometimes 2 depending on my schedule. He got about a cup of watered down alfalfa pellets twice a day. Sam did go on a I don't want soaked hay strike once, but I told him that is it or nothing... he got over it! He will think you are starving him, but when they start feeling better you will find it is all worth it. Once his weight gets where you want it, you can re-evaluate his diet. I think Nancy is right "starving" them is counter productive. 1.5% of body weight isn't starving them, you do need to cut his carbs. When Hank went on his diet, I cut that boy a bunch 1% of what his BW should be, he wasn't happy but every pound he DrOpped the better he walked.... he lost almost #300's As you can see I am very passionate about this, having lived through many devastating founders. You have to be a little tough and don't let them beg you into more food... it is well worth it! My horses do live pretty normal now, but first we had to get to a non-obese status. Let us know how your horse does. If you start your own thread you may get more responses. |
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 12:04 pm: Gail here is the link to Hanks diet thread.. it's the last part, the first 2 parts are linked in the beginning of this one. Notice in part 1 he had boots on and was very obese. Once he lost weight you will see the boots are gone. I would have soaked his hay then if I knew better. I have done this since and it does help a lot, especially when they are "acute" He had 8 degree rotation with some sinking in both fronts... just a little encouragement https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/282691.html What is your horses BCS? What do his hooves look like? this info would help. If you start your own thread pics would help also Good Luck
|
| New Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 4:08 pm: A cup of alfalfa pellets twice a day would be fine for him. If you add about a half cup of water to them and let them sit for an hour or so they poof up and adding supplements/meds is easy and they mix right in. I put water in mine right after I feed them then they are ready for the next feeding.Gail do you know if you are dealing with actual founder, or bruised soles from hard ground? The reason I ask is FME the styrofoam is too hard for bruised soles and doesn't help. IF he is rotating styrofoam (construction grade) works very well I have found for bruised soles and even founder that a garden kneeling pad cut to hoof size and duct taped on helps quite a bit. They have to be changed out almost everyday USUALLY because of compression. It would be a cheap thing to start with. I couldn't find any for Sam last year at wally world but did find some at the local hardware store. This is what I got for Sam until I got his boots..he liked these as well as his boots for comfort...maybe better. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RFS9G0/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539 851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201& Cut them to size, wrap with vet wrap, finish up with duct tape. Pain in the arse, but to see him comfortable and walk :right" it was worth it! You can get about 4 pads from one cushion. I have heard these work also, but have never tried them https://www.matsmatsmats.com/exercise/fitness-mat.html There is also the hoof wraps they are around $18 a piece, and come with pads https://hoofwraps.us/product_info.php?products_id=1&osCsid=50ac09ba1a8191c89181c5 7d1859934b In the long run easy boot RX's are a better investment than the hoof wraps, they last MUCH MUCH longer and are easier to apply
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 7:16 pm: BTW Gail I have dealt with peeling the round bales too.. it is a pain! However I DID figure out an easy way to figure out how much I was feeding.. it isn't exact, but will give you a close idea. I got a big box, put it on a kitchen scale, zeroed it out an filled it with their alloted amount of hay... per weight. I found a box that fit the hay I wanted and filled that daily, it actually works pretty good, fill the box with the daily ration and feed out of that. So in your case if you believe your horse should weigh #1000's fill the box with 10- 15 lbs. of hay and you are done for the day you can even get days ahead with extra boxes.
|
| Member: cheryl |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 4:07 pm: Hi Gail, I agree those fat deposits will tell a story all by themselves. Last year when Sam foundered badly his BSC was probably around a 5, but something set his insulin off and these fat deposits really grew. I don't think it is possible to get rid of them altogether, but watching them can help you know if his diet is alright. If they are hard and tight, and practically grow overnight something is very wrong in the diet.... FME. The easy boot RX's are a bit pricey, but easy and you will have them on hand if he suddenly gets sore. I have never had rub problems with them. When they are on soft shavings I took them off. I looked at a bag of healthy edge, I do hope you removed it, it does have molasses and corn listed as ingredients pretty high up, not good for him at all at this point. The NSC value is 18% not good right now either. I would hand walk him only if off bute and comfortable. I have done more damage by thinking they felt good enough for turnout when on bute, only to undo all the good that I had done... patience is something I am learning on this journey Both Hank and Sam walked well in the easy boot RX without bute, so hand walk them I did...alot!! One other thing we have ignored is what kind of shape are his hooves in? In the beginning this all seems very overwhelming and it is! Once you get Butch feeling better and his diet under control, it becomes a little easier. Once you see he is not in pain anymore it becomes ALOT easier. My EMS horse do live pretty normal now, I have to watch certain triggers, I soak their hay when weather permits, do I have to? I don't know, probably not at this point, but every little thing we do to keep the insulin working right helps these types. Prevention is key here. Slacking will catch up with you... ask me how I know Exercise is paramount when they are sound, that can't be stressed enough it keeps the insulin flowing. If I don't ride them in the summer, they get ran around the pasture, and they do RUN! or lunged everyday. If footing is favorable I do it in the winter too. Once you get in tune with this whole EMS thing you will be able to just look at Butch and see he is moving JUST a LITTLE slower, or his "weird" fat has grown and be able to stop his foot soreness before it begins. I monitor their DP's daily...I'm obsessed If someone's are kabooming I take notice, tho Dr.O. has taught me to keep them in there place! and I do now, but they can be helpful ( I think) in monitoring impending problems. VERY glad to hear Butch is improving, keep up the good work.
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 4:40 pm: To check Dp's there is a vein running right by the fetlock on both sides. Place your index finger on one side and thumb on the other, squeeze very lightly. They are hard to find usually and if things are well in the hoof. If they are bounding (ka booming)they should be easy to find.Red circle is approximately where you should find the digital pulse (on both sides). It might take a little practice. 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 4:58 pm: Cheryl I tell ya, if Sam wasn't such an IR PPID pain the butt, I don't know if I would have resorted to this, but after last years fiasco I thought it couldn't hurt!Hank and Sam are getting 2 scoops, Sam is a pony 14hh, Hank is barely a horse 15-15.1 hh. Flash is smaller yet and getting a heaping scoop.. approx. 18mgs. Hank has his laminitis weight... over 1000#'s and watch him cripple up before my eyes! Least I got that much figured out! I know Fox is Very much like this too. IMHO it does seem to be helping mine. I am having a VERY quiet, non starving horse winter, it's almost scary!!! Although if you read the article above or even Dr.O.'s article it suggests if your horse is obese to put them on 4 scoops and a diet until they get to a acceptable weight. SOOO since my horses aren't obese, but would really like to be, I thought this might help me through the immobile, fridgid, starve them to death, tippytoeing, I am going to die now winter  vet thought so too. It seems to be working, they aren't thin by any means, but look good. I can't wait to they shed off and see what's under all that hair!/or get shaved (Sam)
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 10:17 pm: Gail as long as he is improving I would keep him where he is. While calf manna is kind of high in NSC's he should be OK as long as you give him JUST a cup per feeding, you gotta work with what you have I am SO happy for you and glad he is improving!!!! LOL sounds like you have a very helpful farrier. Deep (Heavy) rings like in sam's hoof picture in this thread above is usually a sign of chronic laminitis, especially in EMS horses. (not always, but usually) The white is normal, the flat foot is also common in chronic laminitis, and/or poor trimming, long toe low heel, genetics. Let's tackle his hooves in a whole different thread after you get him feeling 100%... I never thought I would be doing my own horses (mostly) but HA made me LOL......... Dr.O. has VERY good articles in here about that... Hank has a flat, flared, chronic laminatic hoof... that for the most part when it is dry out is quite normal now... wet winter plays a little havoc on them and he tends to bruise and flare easily, but that is coming along slowly too. |
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 8:32 am: They do run a little small so if he is over a 3 but not quite a 4, I would go with a 4. Be sure you measure in the right spots, that sounds like one big hoof. Better they are a tad big then too small. TOO big and they will turn. When was he trimmed last? |
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: cheryl |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 12:02 pm: You're welcome Gail - If you use a spring scale be sure to check every now and then to make sure the scale stays set at 0 - Mine has a tendency to move down so the horses are actually getting about 5 pounds less than they should - they don't appreciate that at all We get two bales down at a time - they are placed on wooden pallets so there is about two or three feet between them - Trying to peal off hay with them up against something is not a fun thing to do.
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 12:04 pm: The weight of the hay is before soaking. I think I would get boots for this guy even if he is improving (if it's in your budget) it is better to be prepared then caught without anything I tried beet pulp on mine and the pigs Sam and Hank did not like it, Flash did, but she seemed to gain weight easily on it. I think alfalfa pellets fit in to the scheme of things better than anything at this point if you can get them. I also think if he weighs 1013 pounds at 15.1 hh he doesn't sound that obese, it does sound as if he has an EMS body and could stand to loose a few pounds and get his insulin under control. Hank is about that size and his OPTIMAL weight is 900#'s anything over a thousand and he lames up quickly. You are doing a good job The calf manna is not something I would feed myself to these horses. Soaking his hay and weighing it is good! It will help turn him around quickly with the removal of the "hard feed" IMO How is Butch today? |
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 6:50 pm: Couple things I find interesting is he was trimmed Jan.4 did he become lame right after that?Does Butch have a cresty neck also? Usually if their diet is under control the "Fat lumps" become soft, they don't go away just become soft. Soft immediately around the tail head is normal that stays soft, but is also a sign the horse is or was too fat at some point. Yea I was trying to gauge my horses BCS tonight with all the hair it makes it a little tougher for sure. Sam is actually starting to shed The other 2 are not yet, of course Sam has twice as much hair as the other 2 also. Here is a pic of Hank from tonight, the other 2 are too hairy too even bother to post a pic! Hank has plenty of hair, but he isn't a YAK like the other 2. I would consider Hank about a 6 BCS. I want him to DrOp at least another 50#'s before spring. The free choice hay days are over! Back to dieting. 
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 6:57 pm: BTW Gail if you start your own thread under this EMS title, maybe with some pics and Butch's symptoms, diet, history ect. Dr.O. may chime in with his 2 cents worth. My threads get VERY long all the time LOL.Otherwise my stuff and your stuff gets intertangled and Dr.O. likes to keep things more individualized. We'll join you there
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 8:44 pm: LOL Gail I'm the same way. I guess there are worse things!I think it has been 20 yrs. since we went anywhere . We're not much for traveling anyway so it doesn't bother us. I would like to make it out to Co. to see my son and his house someday soon, but finding someone to watch all the critters is impossible. We have cows, dogs, horses, indoor cats, and not so itty bitty kiity's. Your change in management indeed can help them that quickly. Just don't get slack with it once he feels better. I can't quite picture what Butch's body looks like he sounds much like Sam. He is lumpy all over, but his crest isn't too bad. He is the one that foundered badly last winter and is quite insulin resistant and from his hirsutism has PPID to top it off  (unless he sheds this year) which I am not holding my breath on! I have never tried Boa boots, I am surprised they suggested them. At least you can ride in them if needed. Let us know how you like them. Boy do I understand your relief and am glad we could be of help. Just remember the next time you see that walk (hopefully never again), be proactive...don't wait to lock his butt up on soft shavings, and re evaluate. |
| Member: rtrotter |
|
| Member: scooter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 9:04 pm: Rachelle I know you just want me to have a part two LOL, it's been awhile BTW I saw something interesting the other day and thought of you. They are something like hoof casts with shoes? I think they are new, they have cuffs...sound familiar at all? I'll look and see if I can find them again |
| Member: lilo |
|
| Member: gwenyth |
|
| Member: briggai |
|
