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Discussion on Paring out abscess
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2010 - 10:12 am:
Hi Dr O (and the rest of you!)
It appears my horse has a foot abscess. Pointing the foot and lifting it, very lame to slightly lame depending on the day, with a digital pulse positively correlated to the degree of lameness. We are having a bit of a time pinpointing the location. On the one day the horse was very lame we found a spot where he reacted to the hoof testers (didn't before of after when the lameness was not as extreme) and I had two different farriers look at it. Both took a bit of the sole off with their knives in the location that was sensitive and investigated one of the shoe nail holes (we took off the shoes) but neither thought digging further was a good idea. It is unusual for an abscess to be this tough to pinpoint and what is the risk of paring out healthy sole?
Thanks
Lynn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2010 - 7:30 am:
Unfortunately Lynn, we don't know how hard this abscess is to isolate, we only know these two folks are having trouble. Whether this is through poor localization, a reluctance to pare far enough into the sole, or if there may be something else going on is uncertain. Usually if there is a problem with localizing an abscess it is that the inflammation and pain have become so widespread in the sole pinpointing the small area of infection is difficult.
Making a hole into healthy sensitive tissue can result in a weakened area that will take 30 days to really heal back strong. For the first days afterward and with good care you will still have introduced a mild lameness. Then again paring into an abscess and relieving the pressure will greatly relieve a serious lameness and prevent further destruction of the sole.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 9:57 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
Would you expect to see a bit of swelling in the lower leg in the case of a foot bruise rather than an abscess?
thanks again
Lynn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 8:17 am:
I would expect swelling in the lower leg to be more an indication of infection but remarkable solar bruising will sometimes result in a swollen coronet.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 9:15 am:
Thanks Dr. O.,
Now I'm at a loss. My horse started pointing his FR about 2 weeks ago. He has gone from grade 3 to 4 lame for the past two weeks. He is still pointing the toe and often lifts the foot off the ground. We removed the shoe about 1 week after the lameness showed up and the horse was suddenly sound. After two days of soundness, I took him for a little trot on the soft field and he felt great. Gave him another day off then he showed up very lame (1.5 days after the ride). We had assumed an abscess and we got a reaction to the hoof testers (one day when he was very lame) on the outside side (near where the shoe would have been) but we could not repeat that. Two farriers did a bit of searching but found no physical sign of an abscess. There was a visible bruise on the toe but not sensitive to the hoof testers. Soaked and poulticed for 5 days with not results. So..I had the vet out two days ago. Of course, he was only lame at the trot on that day. She thinks it is a bad bruise (no reaction to hoof testers). I did manage to convince her to take an x-ray to make sure (?) there was no fracture to the coffin bone. He is still pointing the foot and lame at the walk, and we still have a little swelling in the lower leg. We have not used any bute as the gastroscope we did a few weeks ago showed no ulcers but clinically significant irritation of the stomach lining (all weird and ridged like a morel mushroom; but more on this under the other post when all the test results are back). He is turned out all day and I was also worried that the bute might encourage him to play harder than he should. I was thinking of breaking a bit of ice off the river edge today and seeing if a cold soak will help relieve some of the pain. Any suggestions/thoughts?
Thanks
Lynn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 7:29 pm:
Lynn none of the information you provide clearly indicates the nature of your horses condition and without examining your horse I cannot diagnose your problem. If you want a firm diagnosis and those available cannot provide it you need a referral.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 7:22 am:
Thanks Dr. O.,
I think I'll hold off for another week or two before taking the poor guy (and my bankbook  ) on another 5-7 hours haul to an equine hospital.
Cheers
Lynn
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 7:39 am:
Lynn my 2 geldings had something similar this year. I did have the vet out and he pared where there was a reaction to hoof testers, but we never did get any drainage. It seemed keeping the hoof dry and padded eventually led to soundness over about a week. I used the easy boot RX, with gold bond powder in them, they both improved immediately with them. They stayed in them for about a week while turned out and that was pretty much the end of it...don't know why!
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 8:07 am:
Thanks Diane,
How long from beginning to end for your guy? We are going on 2.5 weeks now.
Lynn
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 8:10 am:
Hank took about a month to total soundness, I think Sam did too.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 8:50 am:
Thanks Diane,
So, I assume you figure it was just nasty bruising?
Lynn
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 10:24 am:
Must have been, it was quite wet at the time and their hooves and soles were "Mushy". Getting them dried up and adding some protection really seemed to help quite a bit.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 10:31 am:
Hopefully it is a bruise.
My dog and cat Vet is a horse owner and she recently told me about a mare of hers that had a similar-sounding problem.
Finally she began soaking in something rather strong that is not typically used as a hoof soak and after a few days a piece of stick about an inch long exited the hoof, immediately relieving the lameness.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 11:51 am:
Thanks Vicki and Diane,
I'm going to brave the river again today and see if we can give him a bit of pain relief without drugs. I was freezing through my insulated rubbers long before he was yesterday.
Cheers
Lynn
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 7:48 pm:
The only thing I would be careful with is those hooves being wet often, leads to soggy soles and more bruising...IF that is the problem. Have you considered Equioxx for pain, it's a little easier on the stomach.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 13, 2010 - 8:15 am:
Hi Diane,
I doubt I'll be able to take the cold long enough to ruin the feet . Also, it looks like the weather is going downhill so yesterday may have been our last go. It did seem to relieve some of the pain. When I turned him back out into the paddock, he promptly galloped and bucked around like an idiot. Good thing the paddock is not rocky. Not the smartest animal I have ever met!
Lynn
Lynn
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 8:43 am:
Hi Diane,
When you mentioned that your two boys showed up with similar symptoms, did that include a bit of swelling in the fetlock and lower leg? I think that is what really has me worried that it isn't a bruise.
Thanks
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 9:38 am:
Lynn, yes it did, I still don't know for sure what it was tho. I did have the vet for both of them. Hanks was in front and Sam's was a rear. It really helped to put those boots on. Sam spent 2 days in a hoof wrap, which helped. Is your horse any better on soft ground?? Are you sure it's the hoof that is the problem?? Padding the hoof may help you decide that.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 14, 2010 - 9:45 am:
Here's the thread I had on Hank.. if you're interested
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/354358.html
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2010 - 7:17 am:
Thanks for the replies Diane. He is sounder on hard ground and I would bet my truck that it is the foot. Keeping anything on is a bit of a challenge when his foot hurts. He is shredding anything I put on that foot or leg (said goodbye to a brand new wrap I bought at the Royal horse show!). I did manage to keep a warm animalintex foot poultice on (did it for 5 nights) by putting a bell boot over it for him to attack and destroy. Never touched the bandage on the opposite leg. There is not a lot of swelling but it is present. On days when he is not so lame it is barely there but on more lame days it is more obvious.
I'll check you that post on Hank. Thanks again!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2010 - 12:54 pm:
The last time one of mine was working on an abscess, walking him up and down the hard concrete drive seemed to facilitate it finally popping. They need that foot pressure/exercise to help bring an abscesses to a conclusion (according to my farrier anyway) if not being pared open.
There was another time that I was soaking and soaking this same horse's foot in ice water. That and the Bute served to ease the pain, but believe it may also have delayed the abscess resolving as we had him stalled in deep shavings, thinking that it was laminitis while it was an abscess all along.
With bruises, I've had good luck following use of a poultice containing Boric Acid, which hardened the foot.
As Diane said, moisture can create a lot "ouchy feet" situations.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Nov 15, 2010 - 2:44 pm:
Thanks Vicki,
Thanks for the info. Not sure if we are dealing with a foot bruise of a very slow to progress abscess. Bummer that the two treatments are quite different. So...I am erring on the side of caution and no longer doing a darn thing! Maybe being a bit slacker in this case is the best alternative. If we don't see some improvement in the next week, I will call in the big guns (figuratively of course!).
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 30, 2010 - 7:35 am:
Hi All,
Just thought an update might be in order. We had another vet out with the equine dentist last week and she took a look at my horse. He was still lame after 5.5 weeks, with a bit of swelling in the fetlock and up the back of the lower leg. The foot is also warm. She blocked him and it was the foot so she proceeded to take a pile of x-rays. All looked OK. So...we are back to assuming an abscess despite getting no reaction to the hoof testers. The lameness does seem to be improving VERY slowly. No idea where to go from here as no one seems to be able to localize it enough to start digging. I noticed that this site does not suggest attempting to treat with antibiotics for a stubborn foot abscess. Has anyone done it in the past?
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 30, 2010 - 4:35 pm:
Lynn as far as I can tell from your posts currently you have an undiagnosed lameness that localizes to the foot. Anytime I have infection that I cannot localize I would consider treatment with antibiotics. Is fever present?
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2010 - 7:19 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
No fever.
Lynn
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 2010 - 3:36 pm:
Lynn have you looked at the article on diagnosing foot lameness at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Overview of Diagnosis and Diseases of the Foot?
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2010 - 7:49 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
Based on the article, it looks like we would need some more blocks and further work (ultrasound or MRI) to get a more definitive diagnosis. Is the type of ultrasound mentioned in the range of what the average equine vet would have? I was wondering why neither vet I am working with mentioned the potential for soft tissue damage (e.g. DDF tendon)? Is it very uncommon? Obviously, if this is the type of damage done then I have been doing the completely wrong thing by turning him out with his buddies all day, and by 6.5 weeks I have likely done some significant damage. I haven't jogged him for the last few days so I will do so tonight and see where we are at. I guess I'm at the point where I am running out of dollars and getting that yucky feeling in my belly.
thanks again
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 2, 2010 - 7:51 am:
Hi All,
Just noticed a typo in one of the posts I did above. He is sounder on softer ground and lamer on hard ground.
Cheers
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 2010 - 2:24 pm:
Some of the ultrasound work may require a different type of head than is found in the field, ask your veterinarian what type equipment and experience they have with ultrasound of the foot.
Distal (in the foot) DDF tendinitis in a common disease problem: is the flexor sheath swollen? As to the treatment of undiagnosed lameness, we have an article with some recommendations at HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » First Aid for the Lame Horse.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2010 - 7:41 am:
Hi Gang,
Just a quick update. The horse has actually been sound (is there a symbol for crossing your fingers?) since December 2nd. No idea why. We did not do anything different but the swelling is down and the hoof is cold. I never saw any drainage site. I did do 5 days of sugardine poultice and we got some snow. Did a few very short lunging sessions (5 mins) to actually make sure he was sound. I rode him at the walk and trot on Sunday in the soft arena (he is still barefoot) and thought he felt a little gimpy so stopped. The lunged him last night and he was nuts and obviously sound. Now...the question is will he stay that way. So, I'll do a few more gentle rides then put the shoes back on if he stays sound. Fingers crossed!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2010 - 7:53 am:
Weird isn't it. Sam and Hank did the same, still not sure what caused it, but once sound they stayed that way
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2010 - 4:44 pm:
Lynn, I have had similar results with applying a drying poultice when a horse apparently had a bruised foot.
Sometimes that has been the end of it but have also had the experience where months later the same foot flared up badly again and eventually had a draining abscess.
I hope that your horse's troubles are over.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 7, 2010 - 7:18 pm:
Hi Diane and Vicki,
Ya, I'm not totally convinced myself. I guess only time will tell. Figured I'd catch a quick hack tonight before nightfall...he was, of course, a little crazy. I will give him credit though, he is much better behaved with me on board then he is on the lunge line.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 21, 2010 - 8:10 am:
Hi Dr et al.,
Here is the latest. I rode the horse lightly for about 2 weeks. I thought he felt a tiny bit off the first ride (then great) then off a little last Monday (Dec 13). So, I decided to put shoes back on, in case it was just the frozen poop in the arena bothering him. The shoes went on on Wednesday and he lunged very stiff that evening. Rode for about 5 minutes on Thursday and he came up very lame. Lunged Friday and still quite lame so I had the shoes taken off again. Horse was still off but better. So, if we assume this is not a coincidence the shoes are putting pressure on whatever is causing the pain. Very experienced farrier applied hoof testers and did not get a reaction across the heels but did from the outer edge of the frog to the opposite heel (both sides of the foot). He was looking pretty worried and thinks there might have been a bruise and now infection in the coffin bone. The assumption was that the horse would not be worse in the shoes if it was tendon damage. As my horse stops eating and drinking after a few days of metronidazole, my vet suggested doxycycline and poulticing. She thinks it is a deep abscess. I must say, I don't see the point of all the soaking and poulticing without any sign of drainage. Any thoughts, ideas, comments, cyber pats on the back? It has been 62 days now.
Cheers and Merry Christmas
Lynn
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 - 7:56 am:
I have to wonder if the shoes aren't creating sole pressure, when I put shoes on tender foot Hank I always put a wide web on and have the farrier rout out the inside of the shoe so it didn't contact the sole. That cured it
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 - 8:16 am:
Hi Diane,
Interesting thought. This horse has worn shoes for about 3 years and never had any problems prior to this. The bottom of his feet are really concave (the best I've seen yet). We also had his winter rim pads on him so I would have thought that would relieve some of the pressure (?). If he was only lame in the shoes I would give your suggestion a go. However, taking the shoes off seems to decrease the pain for a few days but throughout this he has also been very lame without them. Thanks for the idea!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 22, 2010 - 8:08 pm:
From your post above it sounded like the shoes made him much worse. Is there a difference on soft and hard ground? How does he land when he walks? toe first, heel first, flat? Does bute make a difference?
I have had excellent results with the easy boot RX, you can't ride in them, but both Hank and Sam did very well in them when they had their abscesses and bruised soles..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 23, 2010 - 6:06 pm:
Hello Lynn,
Abscesses are painful without pressure. I agree with your assessment otherwise, pressure from the shoeing is likely to be putting pressure on sensitive tissue but whether this is a bruise or just thin horn I cannot say. For more information on this see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming. Note, this may be a different problem than your chronic one.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 - 9:27 am:
Thanks Dr O and Diane,
Diane, overall we are seeing improvement over the past month. He is no longer noticeably lame at the walk (without the shoes) to the average person on the street. He lands heel first on both feet and actually throws the sore foot further forward than the sound foot (he keeps steps on the sound one shorter and closer to the center of balance the same as we would). And I did actually ride him for about 2 weeks. He is worse on hard ground but that is no longer an issue with the covering of snow we have if he isn't ridden. Since removing the shoes this second time, he is standing square and not lifting the foot. Thought about the boots but there isn't someone to watch him all day and with the snow I expect the boots would be a big pain (and he likes to ruin bell boots so I expect those would become toys very quickly). Also, I don't think they would do much of a better job than the snow (?). Diane, you've got great ideas with all the work you've obviously put into your critters!
Dr. O, I'll read the stuff on thin horn but it seems odd he was OK for 2 years? At first I thought this might have been just a nail that was a little too close to sensitive tissue and took a week to really cause pain, but those nail holes all long gone. This horse grows hoof really quickly.
So...my plan is to do a round of doxycycline and lay him off until the end of January even if he does appear sound. Bummer, as I actually don't mind riding in the cold and Peety is a hardy, fluffy beast.
Thanks again
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2010 - 9:46 am:
Good luck Lynn, if he is landing heel first, I wouldn't suspect heel pain quite as much. They usually try to avoid landing where it hurts. Does he roll any from side to side with that hoof? Watching them walk on level hard ground can sometimes tell you where the pain is coming from if you watch closely and compare with the good hoof.
Hank landed heel first also, but landed on the left side of his hoof and ever so slightly rolled to his right side trying to avoid as much pressure as possible. His abscess or at least a track was on the right side between the quarters and the toe. He never did drain that I saw, and still not sure what it was all about. He was sound in boots for riding. Let us know how it goes, I am interested what this turns out to be.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 29, 2010 - 9:15 am:
Hi Diane,
Thanks for sticking in there with me on this one. When he is really sore he still seems to be putting the weight down evenly (from side to side). We had to wait for the doxycycline as it needed to be ordered and things are slow around Christmas. Hopefully it will get here this week but I doubt it. The foot was cool and without swelling for about 5 days then was very hot with swelling in the fetlock and back of the leg yesterday. However, at least he is no longer pointing the toe and lifting it when he is standing in the hallway. He is still just being turned out all day. I supposed he could have played a bit and aggravated the foot. I'm pretty anxious to start the antibiotics and see if we can clear this up. One would think if it was an abscess he wouldn't just keep getting minor flare ups for a few days then have the foot cool again. Maybe I'll take some picture of the critter and foot just so you guys don't get too bored with this post
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Member:
lara
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 29, 2010 - 1:50 pm:
fingers crossed for you
Here is my weird abscess story, FWIW:
My farrier was out for my guys' regualr trims,( horses were completely sound) The farrier found what looked like a divot on my ponys hoof, so we just barely poked it and it started bleeding, farrier thought it was an abscess. Pared it out. He packed it with something, put a leather pad and shoe on her. 3 days later she was completely lame on it. So I soaked her foot (still with pad and shoe on lol) wrapped her coronet with a wetted serenity poise pad (man! those things can hold a LOT of water). I covered it with vet wrap and then industrial strength duct tape. And gave her some bute. Next day she was sound so I took the serenity pad wrap off (she never did blow thru her coronet band) continued with the bute for a couple of days then stopped. she is day 2 without bute and is still sound. I guess it just plugged up for a day or two and then reopened?
horses....sigh.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 29, 2010 - 7:52 pm:
Hi Leslie,
Thanks for the story...I think we all need t-shirts with "horses...sigh" on it!! Thanks goodness that my horse thinks any attention is good. He seems to think all of the doctoring is just plain entertaining. All the new smells and stuff laying on the floor around him, foot soaking and wrapping, not to mention all the petting and rubbing of itchy spots (see my post under Dermatophilus).
Thanks again and good luck with your critter!
Lynn
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2011 - 3:06 pm:
Hi Gang,
Nothing new to report. Foot still good some days and hot with a bit of swelling other days. Here are the promised photos. He is obviously due for a trim (last done Dec 18th). Sorry but it was too cold to clean off the foot well so you will see a bit of pellet dust on the feet.
The beast in question
The foot in question
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Jan 10, 2011 - 4:00 pm:
Why does his frog look so weird? Is the dark color from treating it with iodine or something, or is he shedding them? In the second pic it just looks kind of strange.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 7:26 am:
Hi Diane,
Doesn't look weird in person Just a dark color and wearing on the hard ice. This frog is always dark - presumably just pigmentation. I'll take a look at the other ones tonight. I know that at least one of them is light colored (RH?). I see that taking foot photos is harder than I thought. The lateral views in the photos above make it look like he has pony feet!
cheers
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 7:48 am:
Taking hoof pics is hard! I'm not very good at judging pics, but from what I learned from doing Hank's hoof it looks like your horses hoof is leaning to the right. (frog pointing that way) Hard to tell from your lateral, but it appears he has a high heel and long toe.
His hoof looks very much like my old mares, she has nice concavity,but a weak heel purchase. She lands toe first and unless she is kept quite short in the toe (squaring helps her), seems to get heel sore. Her frog deteriorates and looks unhealthy and gets thrush. Her toe doesn't really look long, but it is. I have a harder time with her hoof than Hanks, his is quite easy to judge, where hers isn't.
Did you say he hoof tested sore back by the heel?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 7:50 am:
BTW he is quite cute! Is he the one with the hair falling out too?
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 8:13 am:
Hi Diane,
It looks like the camera was at a bit of an angle to the foot making the frog look like it is pointing to one side. I'll try it again tonight.
I had thought his heels were actually too low before and now that this might be a tendon injury, I'm a little hesitant to ask my farrier to DrOp them a bit. It always amazes me how feet seem to be able to change in look from one shoeing to the other (not a good thing I am sure). Even when he was very lame he still lands heel first on both feet. Yes, the only consistent positive we got was from the outside of the frog to the opposite heel, both ways (never across the heels). What do you mean by "weak heel purchase"?
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 8:15 am:
Yup, he is the one with the skin issue. Good thing he is great to work with.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 5:19 pm:
Lynn I am not good at explaining this! If you can get some good pics maybe Dr.O. will comment
I have been told to lay on the ground and get a straight shot for lateral and ap.
I still think his frog looks "weird" LOL. Maybe shedding?
Here's one thing that is kind of curious to me, it appears his sole is higher than the wall where I put the arrow. Hank had a problem with that, he landed heel first because his toe hurt, not because he had a nice hoof LOL. Is that part higher than the wall?
Angie where are you???? Beveling would definitely help him out a bunch I would think.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 11, 2011 - 7:43 pm:
Thanks Diane,
Took another look at the foot and it looks like the frog on the two front feet are just stained from stepping into the betadine I have been applying on the skin issue. In person it looks nice and healthy (will try to get more pics).
As for the sole at the toe being too high. Given that the feet need trimming, I'm not sure that would be sensitive (?) but might. We never got any sort of reaction from the hoof testers on the toe (and many people have given it a go). However, it is a good point as I need see signs of a bruise there this summer. Will chat with my farrier next time I see him.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 7:32 am:
How long has his shoes been off?
If he is better on soft ground it most likely is his hooves.
I will just throw some things out you FME. All of this is it APPEARS as it is hard to tell from your pics, and maybe something to consider.
It APPEARS he has grown a defensive toe callous, Hank did/does that too. However it started when he was shod with sole pressure, now this didn't happen all time, sometimes he was fine in shoes sometimes not. Once i went to a routed out wide web show it never happened again ( the soreness)
If Hanks callous got above the wall as it APPEARS your horses has he would get sore (usually) if I keep it level with the wall he does fine. A bevel really helps in that department
Have you read Dr.O.'s articles on the 4 point trim? I have about 1000 parts in there as I was learning to fix Hank! I think in every part you can see the callous or his sole higher than the wall
This part has a good pic of his callous, all the parts have very good help from the members and Dr. O. Granted you horses hooves don't look as bad as Hanks did, I do see some similarities.
Hank remained barefoot last summer for the first time in years
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/3/352019.html
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 7:54 am:
I agree with Lynn, this looks like a healthy frog to me. It has been trimmed more aggressively than I would have done, primarily to open the sulcus and possibly to remove thrushy areas. I would like to see this to be allowed to develop into a more robust structure primarily by not removing as much healthy horn from the frog with the knife.
DrO
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:38 am:
Jeepers Diane, I reread that discussion to be sure I remembered what 'I thought' I remembered!
Which was, "The toe callous should not extend beyond the hoof inner (waterline) and outer (pigmented hoof horn) wall because it will hit the ground before the wall and make the horse sore." It makes sense to me that to avoid the toe pain the horse might land heel first if possible (awkwardly) and then perhaps create heel pain."
If he is leaning (putting more pressure on one side of the foot), would that indicate pain on the opposite of the foot?
Looking at picture #4 on Lynn's Jan 10 post, it appears in the picture there is more "foot" on the left side of the photo than on the right side of the photo. If so, isn't this because he is weighting the left side (of the photo) more heavily?
Due to imbalance and/or pain perhaps?
I hope you get this worked out Lynn. I banged my head on a wall for weeks and months trying to understand feet. !
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:41 am:
Oh and Lynn, my Diva mare did not have an abscess, founder, etc. when she was lame in both front feet. She had severe bruising. She has very thin soles. Could be you don't have an abscess either...just sore sore feet? Diva mare had swelling off and on and a little heat in the foot too. I took her out of shoes a year ago and found a barefoot trimmer who worked wonders. Hope you get to the bottom of this soon.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:45 am:
And yet more...Diva mare responded well with Naproxen. OTC 200 mg tablets crushed and put into applesauce. The dosage is on this site somewhere-Diva took 25 pills for one dose. This helped the pain and inflammation of the major toe bruising she had--caused by ice, thin soles, and shoes which were causing pressure at the toe of the sole.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 9:08 am:
Thanks for all the great ideas gang.
The photo of the hoof sole looks uneven (more on one side of frog than other and frog twisted) because of the poor job I did of taking photos . The camera lense was off to the side of the foot. I will try again.
I'll talk to my farrier about the sole thing but...we never got a reaction of any sort to hoof testers in the toe or on the sole. An intern from one of the best clinics in Ontario as well as one of the top hunter/jumper farriers both noted that he has a very hard hoof and sole and that this was not the cause of the lameness. Could they be wrong? of course they could but it is not where I would start the search.
Vicki, did your mare respond to hoof testers? Makes sense that they would avoid pain by landing on the heel.
Seems far more likely to me that he has done some soft tissue damage (not that he may not need some work on his feet!). If the foot heats up and the swelling returns I might actually go ahead and spend the truckloads of $$ to have an MRI done. Not knowing is making me nuts. We are at least a 6 hour drive from the closest unit and I don't have a trailer. Might need to have a major yard sale to fund this one. Wonder if I could sneak some of the husbands toys in (quad, snowmobile, boats, etc.)?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 9:51 am:
Well, if no reaction from hooftesters on the toe/sole combined with the assessment of hard sole, then it probably isn't toe bruising! And Diva's bruising was very apparent with redness showing on sole. I know just enough to be dangerous. 
I do have one suggestion with regard to a trailer...my husband loves to go to Canada to hunt. I coyly, innocently suggested we get a 'bigger' horse trailer when we were shopping at a 'hail damage' trailer sale...4 slant with small LQ...so he could use it for extended hunting trips...you know, pack the 4-wheelers in there and all of the 'stuff' he needs to go hunting... This fall he pulled a small box trailer up there loaded with geese decoys... Anyway, he thought that was a good idea. Good news is he hasn't used it yet. hahahha. Maybe it will be all mine. So. Perhaps you should adjust the lighting, drag out the lingerie, wine (these are suggestions from Sara W), and pop the question about how great a trailer would be for hunting (4-wheeling...snowmobiling...) as well..
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 10:53 am:
Hi Vicki,
Your post gave me a good chuckle. I am definitely not above the tactics you suggested. Unfortunately, my husband played the game in reverse and came home last spring with a huge utility trailer that he suggested might also be used to haul the horse in. Tried to explain that a horse trailer has a many "special features" that are critical (like a reinforced floor!!!). Too bad I didn't hear the idea this time last year and we might have a horse trailer in the yard rather than a utility trailer
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 4:55 pm:
Vicki that's what I was getting at, with his black pigmentation I have to wonder if you could see bruising?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 6:01 pm:
But if they don't test sore?????? Diane, you know I only know enough to be dangerous, and I know zero about Warmblood feet...as far as conformation compared to a QH...but do his feet look very upright in the photo?
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 7:05 pm:
Hi Diane and Vicki,
You guys are great at this! Given the pastern angle this is actually the improved version as the variation in the angle was worse before. This is a compromise between taking toe and growing a bit of heel. I thought I had some idea of what I wanted in horse feet but you guys are scaring the heck out of me. Given the long toes we often see, this guy is considered to have great feet. However, I must say that the sense of angles from pastern to hoof you get from a standing position is much different than what you see laying on the frozen barn floor
When the foot is trimmed you actually see less pigment and we did see an old bruise at the toe about two months ago (not sensitive to hoof testers). So although I don't think that is the cause of the current lameness, I will chat with my farrier about it. Maybe I can give him your phone numbers!!!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 7:15 pm:
don't let me scare you! If you've read any of my posts, I am practically clueless. The foot gals on here have tried to help me. And hoof pix are very hard to take. My pix are under Diva Mare Barefoot Transitions I-V...lol
And my trimmer finds small, red bruises from time to time (no lameness) and she doesn't worry about them.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 7:33 pm:
Another question Lynn, when you are talking about his heels being too low before...are you talking about heel height or heel length? I have mistaken heels as too low, when the the real problem was heels that were too long. It took me weeks to decipher the jargon and synonyms of foot talk and of course some terms were misused. Agh.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:18 pm:
I join the ranks of knowing enough just to be dangerous also, but we can present a few theories
Maybe he isn't testing sore at the toe because he is avoiding it thus making his heel sore, Hank presented the same, not sore at the toe, sore around the quarter area to the heel. Head scratcher for us when it happened
Hard to judge from the pics above, BUT if someone made me guess I would say his heel is too long (under run) same with his toe. It also APPEARS they are a bit tall. His base of support does not APPEAR to be under him, which can in turn strain the tendons.
His bars need trimming, he could use a good bevel, quarters relieved, ect. Some horses do just fine without that stuff, some horses it catches up with and they slowly go lame.
Lynn it is usually pretty easy to boil it down to the hooves, if you don't have boots to try. Get one of those garden kneeling pads, cut to his hooves, wrap with duct tape and walk him on hard ground, if it puts a spring in his step, some licking and chewing, that pretty much tells you. If it is a tendon problem it won't help, or even a thick duct tape boot , first wrap with a good amount of vet wrap type stuff. Won't tell you where in the hoof but will at least narrow it down a bit You wouldn't believe the things I have tried
OR go get a MRI and find out what is going on I have to play guessing games and try to narrow things down because I don't have that stuff available to me.
If you could get better pics it might help someone see the problem, if indeed there is one!
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:20 pm:
Good question on that second post Vicki. I meant heel height (I think). If you visualize the same toe length, with a heel closer to the ground, you get an ever worse broken pastern to hoof angle so, (maybe mistakenly) I suggested to my farrier that taking a bit more toe and leaving a bit more heel height might get us closer to what we wanted as he was hesitant to cut back the toe a significant amount (he is notorious for long toes).
By the way I love the name "Diva mare". I managed to afford my horse as he had a nasty meeting with an electric fence that has left one ugly scare on a back leg and a smaller one on his hip. Took a bit of a beating from the broodmares he lived with so also has a chunk out of one of his ears. I debated calling him "Scratch N Dent" but my friends pointed out that this might be bad karma in a jumper hopeful! Instead his show name is "Nonchalant", still likely bad karma for a jumper but maybe a surprise to the competition!!?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:44 pm:
Which raises more questions Lynn. We need a diagram.
look at this page. Scroll down to middle and look at diagram for Angle of Toe and Heel and see if we are talking about the same thing.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/images /barefoot-horse-low-heel.gif&imgrefurl=https://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/Hoo f-Education.html&usg=__9F7poL6JmcNwrZTpTIGIOzWjNxQ=&h=343&w=462&sz=57&hl=en&star t=0&zoom=1&tbnid=0UwXFva0Xwxu4M:&tbnh=144&tbnw=194&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbarefoot%2 Bhorse%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1350%26bih%3D762%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=h c&vpx=1044&vpy=245&dur=704&hovh=193&hovw=261&tx=210&ty=100&ei=MlguTauUG5CH5Abvvd X6CA&oei=MlguTauUG5CH5AbvvdX6CA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0
sorry so long.
And about "long toe"...are you referring to the length of the "toe" on the sole--from apex of frog to toe wall? Or are you talking about the length of the outside hoof wall from coronet to toe? Sorry to be so dense.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:46 pm:
and Diva didn't come with a Diva price tag...just the attitude.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 8:54 pm:
Hi Diane,
I am supposed to be writing a science advice piece for forestry activities in wood turtle habitat tonight but...
Given that we don't know what this is, I have stopped all exercise for Peety, but daily turn out, for the past several weeks. He is currently standing even and the foot is cool and no swelling for at least a week. I would bet that he has been sound since a few days after we took the shoes off (the latest time on Dec 18th?). He is walking just fine and I have seen him do few short trots in the field that looked great(although the ground is not ideal). I promised myself I would not do anything with him until the end of January and only then if the foot had been cool for > 3 weeks. My reasoning was that, over the past three months, every time he was sound and I started working with him, he went lame and the heat and swelling came back (potentially confounded by putting shoes back on the last time). So, testing your idea would mean I need to work him a few days and I am not sure I want to take the risk (not that I am not dying of curiosity to give it a try ).
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 9:43 pm:
Hi Lynn,
This is how I solved the "Blacksmith doesn't get the short toe synDrOme".
I deal with racehorses and I have several threads on here about attempting to keep my horses barefoot, or in shoes without nails and racing with some semblance of success. The reason I felt I had to go in this direction was because I wanted to keep my wonderful barefoot trim, which seemed to get lost when I put on regular shoes.
One of the problems I had was that every time I had to put on regular nailed on shoes, within two or three shoeings, I'd see that long toe, low under run heel, coming back. Until, I told the farrier to rocker the toe back from underneath and then to shoe normally. The shoe gets shaped to the rockered toe, there is no shoe sticking out past the heel. The heel points( because the toe is rockered) are back where they are supposed to be (and they appear to stay there between shoeings). I can also get 5-6 week shoeing cycle, rather than 3 weeks as it was before.
I also do all 4 feet this way, not just the front, since I seem to have more of a problem with the hind feet LT/LH rather than the front.
I have not given up my dream of a lightweight temporary racing shoe and I have some ideas in the back of my head, but until I hit the lottery, or someone buys me an injectable plastic molding machine so I can make my own or I give up racing on abrasive surfaces, nailed on shoes have to be in my vocabulary, unfortunately.
I realize I may be a bit off topic here, but my main point is that until I explained my reasoning for wanting to put a rockered toe on my horses( easier breakover, better gaited, less attitude problems), what I usually got a choice of was squaring or blunting the toe which happened from the top and not the bottom of the foot and usually got accomplished with a set of nippers and not a rasp and did not fix the original problem, just made it worse because too much of the toe wall was removed without balancing the entire foot.
So, if your farrier is hesitant to take too much toe ask him to rocker the toe and see what happens, this works with or without shoes. That's if, he knows what a rockered toe is. If he looks at you cross-eyed then you know you are in trouble
All the best
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 9:56 pm:
OH I didn't mean riding him in them
I've been playing with his hoof in paint LOL, nothing on TV and I don't want to clean!
IF indeed he has the LTLH going on, work can make him sore, it aggravates all the tendons/ligaments in there. Almost all of Hanks problems were caused by poor trimming/shoeing, with some bad genetics thrown in there I think!
When you get time read Dr. O's article on it, it really is hard to judge from your lateral, the sole pic has tell tale signs of it. It's all kind of mind boggling. If you look at your sole shot on the left side of the pic it looks like his heel is quite a bit taller. I circled it in this pic. I also put it on a grid and straightened it out and flipped it. Tried to mark the widest part of the frog. I can't quite figure out what is frog there exactly!
Dr.O.'s article
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/151283.html
Pic
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2011 - 10:03 pm:
OH good Rachelle, she is very right, when I finally told my farrier NO nippers things started getting better quickly... he doesn't know what a rocker is and was dubbing Hanks toe off terribly from the top. leaving him on his sole, and if he put shoes on, 9 out of 10 times Hank ended up with sloe pressure and got sore with them too.
I am not saying his problem is his hoof form, but it probably isn't helping anything either
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2011 - 7:38 am:
I found it truly amazing the changes that can be made in hoof form/balance with one trim and after three, even more amazing. Don't despair. I agree with Diane. The lameness may not be attributed to his hoof form, but it probably isn't helping either.
Also, Rachelle and Diane, when you are speaking of 'Rockering' the toe, is that the same as the 'Mustang Roll' or 'Bevel'....or are you referring to a more assertive/aggressive trim as the Rocker? Jargon gets confusing to me...and it may well confuse Lynn's farrier too.
The many, many different barefoot trim sites, and each site/author's use of jargon/terms cause me much anxiety. At some point in my reading, it appeared to me that a 'Rocker' was a more severe bevel used for more difficult cases and was a technique used sparingly.
Am I off base?
And I am always troubled by variables of environment, spectrum of usability, conformation, etc. when determining 'what to do' for a horse and its feet. A hard working horse in a colder, wetter environment (pathology and conformation of course thrown in as more variables) may perhaps need more protection on the foot than a horse in a different circumstance. Hmmm. Suppose that's where the professionals come in...and therein lies the rub. Finding one.
Lynn, my #2 farrier (of 4) was the most qualified, certified, awarded/decorated, experienced farrier in this state; however, he thought a Rocker was what all barefoot 'people' wanted and he scoffed at it as too severe. ? I think he was confused. The 'bevel' or 'Mustang Roll' on Diva Mare does not look like a 'Rocker' to me from the pictures I have seen online. She has never, ever been sore after a barefoot trim, but was sore after farrier work several times. Perhaps this was due to incompetent farriers or perhaps it was the method and the shoes.
Lynn, is your farrier open to discussion about this?
Any horse in any circumstance will benefit from being balanced of course, and I'm sure no hoof professional would disagree. The problem is defining balance I have found.
Lynn, excuse my rambling. I have been in your place. Worrying and tearing my hair out trying to figure out lameness, lameness that comes and goes, and what to do about it...and what tests to have...and who to trust as the professional. I will say, I sought out the best 'farrier' in this state and also used the large animal/equine hospital at Purdue University which is supposedly the best in this state. And the professionals all disagreed with one another. I did what they wanted over a period of 18 months and my horse was still not right. I did what my barefoot professional wanted for 12 months, and Diva mare was immediately better and has only gotten better. I swear she loves the trimmer.
That is the limited perspective of this novice if it is any solace to hear the confusion and misery of my experience. !
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2011 - 7:56 am:
I think quite a few of us have been in Lynn's place!
I think a rocker can be aggressive or not, depends on the situation. A foundered horse usually benefits from an aggressive rocker to get the toe from having pressure. I think a light rocker or a bevel would help Peety.
I don't consider a bevel and a rocker quite the same thing, but I may be wrong!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2011 - 8:14 am:
I just read through this whole discussion and saw Diane ask me where I was, lol!
I am struggling with a hoof concern myself so haven't had time to wrap my mind around this discussion.
My thoughts, for what they are worth, would be to lower the heel, and I would agree to rocker the toe a bit as Rachelle says. I don't see a good heel platform to support the horse.
The horse appears to be standing under himself looking from the side.
IME, limited that it is, it is just amazing what little tweaks can do for the comfort of a horse, and for his movement improving. IMO, the hardest things to grasp and get correct, are the heels, the bevel, and rockering of the toe...if that is needed. The horse needs a good heel platform, needs to feel comfortable landing heel first, and the bevel needs to be done to keep the hoof wall from flaring or causing pain if it is flared.
Once you have that all working together, it may be easier to pinpoint what is wrong. And what has been causing pain may then resolve itself.
Vicki,
I consider rockering what is done from the bottom of the hoof ONLY, at the toe ONLY.. It can be a little bit, or more if you are comfortable doing more. But if you do more you must leave toe pillars. I think that's the term.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think you can bevel/mustang roll to the white line, and you can do that all the way around the hoof wall. It's just putting a finishing on the edge of the wall to break that sharp edge. You can do a little bit or more...more at the toe, less at the quarters and heels.
Rockering is to bring break over back.
Rachelle can probably explain it best! I am feeling very rusty on my terminology, need to brush up on it!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2011 - 9:23 am:
It seems we are in agreement, Diane and Angie, that Rocker appears to be the term for a more severe 'bevel'.
A Rocker is only used between the toe pillars (11:00 and 2:00 when looking at the sole of the foot);this may be the most significant difference between a Rocker and a bevel. Right?
And this Rocker is rasped or maybe even nipped from the bottom (looking at the sole_ of the foot). Rachelle at one time explained the difference well--how the position of the tool in relation to the outside of the hoof wall and the inner wall/sole was critical. I fall down here on my understanding. I remember she pointed out my trimmer did it correctly in the video I posted but I cannot put it into words. Help someone.
A bevel is used all around the outside of the hoof wall. This bevel is often called a "Mustang Roll" after the work of Jaime Jackson...Right? The bevel eases breakover, reduces potential flare and cracks/chips...hopefully. Diva mare has not had a single flare or crack. And this was a horse with a waterline and pigmented hoof wall the thickness of an eyelash at one time that DID chip and break out. Of course, I cannot ignore/exclude nutrition and movement. I feel those were improved also during 'rehab'. After 12 months, she has 3/8" of pigmented hoof wall and a beautiful waterline and nice tight white line. I believe her problem was too many years in shoes with little relief (9 years) and poor trimming work which over time produced poor hoof form and poor hoof horn quality. That is fixed. Wish I could create a thicker, tougher sole for her. That may be impossible; it may just be genetics...?
Diva mare has a bevel all around the outside of the wall. I touch up that bevel with a Rider's Rasp every 2 weeks or so. I do this from the bottom (holding foot in my hand looking at the sole). She is on a 6 week trim rotation year round. This seems to work for her...the small footed, thin soled, lightly worked Paint/QH! Boots for gravel.
It will be interesting to me Lynn what you find out here about this lameness.
Angie, when you say lower the heels...are you meaning reduce the heel length which will thereby reduce heel height? Or what am I not understanding?
It is a challenge Lynn, if you decide to alter the hoof form, to communicate clearly what you would like to the farrier. Keep us posted. Hope we haven't confused you and caused you more concern!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 13, 2011 - 5:38 pm:
If you look at the Redden video Dr. O. has on the four point trim video it shows what I would consider rockering..
I think a strong bevel, rolling the toe would help Peety, it helps most horses. I consider rockering more for severe cases... I tried it on Hank once and he actually did pretty well with it. Course he has/had multiple problems
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 7:44 am:
Hi Gang,
Just a quick update. Despite going outside with his friends all day, Peety started getting pretty bored and was taking off and shredding the insides of his lovely Rambo blankets (got them off without ever breaking or undoing a single strap; very talented apparently). Had his feet trimmed Monday (Jan 24). I started hand walking him a bit last week and rode him for the first time last night. Mostly walking but about one trot around the whole arena and one ~ 20 m circle each way to make sure he was sound. Felt great so everyone keep your fingers's crossed. Going to start slowly at first and see how it goes.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 9:02 am:
Good news.
Good luck for continuing soundness.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:50 am:
Thanks Lynn, hope the soundness continues.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 5:23 pm:
Glad to hear it Lynn...fingers crossed
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 8:04 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
I hope this isn't a stupid question but...my horse is still sound with light riding and on Friday night the RF (the one he was lame on) was very warm, whereas the LF was cold. I didn't find any pulse and was wondering whether a significantly warmer foot, in and of itself, means much? I took it as a warning sign and gave him two days off. Often I ride shortly after I bring the horses in, so both hooves feel cold, but after I ride they seem equally warm. However, throughout the lameness described above his sore foot was much warmer than the other (no sitting around debating but something anyone off the street could have easily noticed). Never really paid that much attention before he went lame as to the relative temp diff between the two front feet.
Thanks again, and if anyone else has some experience on this front that would be great.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 5:55 pm:
No Lynn by itself it is not a clear indicator of problems but always a cause to look and with the past history perhaps a good caution at least till you see if this is a pattern with meaning.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2011 - 7:05 am:
Well, unfortunately the heat did mean something and the horse showed up lame last night. Thanks for the response Dr. O.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 1:32 pm:
Wow, the length of this post is getting out of hand! Just wanted to let you all know that the horse is scheduled for a lameness exam at the University of Guelph next week. The university has an MRI and a slew of other diagnostic equipment not commonly available. One of the biggest concerns is that the horse will actually get there sound and they will have to work him for a few days to make him sore. I will ride him a few times this weekend (gently) to see if we can avoid having that happen - not normally my idea of a good thing to do. So, hopefully by the end of next week we will know what is actually up with the poor guy.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 6:44 pm:
Lynn, let us know how it works out and remember that a MRI is not a substitute for a good exam so have them start there and first localize that lameness, then consider the next diagnostic steps.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2011 - 8:06 am:
Hi Dr.,
Despite that we are absolutely certain the pain is in the FR foot are you suggesting if he happens to be sound the day we are going to ship him to OVC that is is not worth the trip?
I know that they intend to lunge him if he gets there sound and I will work him gently every day until he leaves (I am actually out of town and cell range the day he leaves and his first day at OVC). However, after rest it can take a week of riding for the heat, swelling, and lameness to show up again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2011 - 9:06 am:
Well if you are absolutely sure that is where the lameness is then we can say you have it localized to the foot. Has a block on the foot been done while lame and had the lameness resolved. Sorry if this has been answered above, a quick look and I could not find it.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2011 - 11:27 am:
Hi Dr. O,
Ya, the post is getting too long to be helpful to others. Yes, we did a lower PD block when he was about a 3/5 and the lameness resolved. Given that the cost of shipping him there is equal to the cost of the MRI, I just hope they get enough information to solve this so that I can get on with whatever treatment is needed.
Thanks again
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2011 - 11:44 am:
Hi Gang,
Just on update. Unfortunately the lameness has been attributed to navicular synDrOme. There are bony changes in the navicular bone in both feet and associated changes in the impar ligament and DDFT in the FR, with some adhesion between the ligament and tendon. The prognosis is "guarded" and they don't expect he will ever be sound enough to jump again. I'll post the pertinent section of the report when it arrives and hopefully Dr.O. can comment. Just a quick note on his foot conformation; the vets at the university were surprised with the diagnosis as they through this feet looked good (nice and big and wide at the back with good angles) and were atypical for a navicular horse.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2011 - 6:09 pm:
I wouldn't post anywhere but here Lynn, though this is long it is a critical piece of the puzzle. Now that you know where the problem is there are shoeing options in combination with antiinflammatory therapy that might help. Have they made specific recommendations?
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 7:51 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
Waiting for the final report but...they recommended "controlled exercise" at a walk for the first 6 weeks then slowly go from there. In addition they suggested that we might try backing the toes further and trying some different shoeing (egg bars or wedges). At the moment the horse is very sore so I am trying to find a temporary (3 months) place to board him where he can go out alone. Given that I work all day, I cannot stall him and go out and walk him 2 x per day, so the best I can do is quiet turnout. I will give that a month then start the walking if he is sound. I will be away quite a bit over the next month so I don't want to put shoes on until I am here to keep and eye on how that goes (as over the past 4 months it appears that shoes have increased the pain significantly). I will talk to my farrier about ensuring proper balance and getting more aggressive on backing up the toe and giving him a serious roll/bevel all around the front of the foot as he breaks slightly off to the outside. I have not used bute to date as the gastroscope done in October showed significant irritation in the stomach lining (do you think that is a mistake?). I just managed to extract the pre-purchase navicular radiographs and sent them to the U to see if there has been significant bony changes since 2008. Not sure if it make a difference. Will put in the pertinent sections of the report when they come in.
They did not leave much room for hope that this horse will ever meet my riding goals again which is pretty devastating. I've never given away a family pet but am already very depressed at watching all my friends taking lessons and clinics and learning all this great stuff then going off to shows all over the place. Not what I had hoped for when I bought my own horse. Sorry, I guess this isn't the appropriate place to start whining . This is tough stuff to explain to non-horse friends.
Lynn
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 9:51 am:
So sorry to hear the guarded prognosis for your horse, Lynn. I have only one experience with navicular synDrOme - my daughter's beloved gelding. We retired him from drill team riding and had him for several years as trail horse (the best one we ever had!!!). He did have special shoes at that time, however, now I read that a lot of them do quite well barefoot. Unfortunately, that does not meet your goals and dreams for your horse.
Lilo
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 10:29 am:
Thanks Lilo.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 11:27 am:
Sorry to hear of your horse's pain, Lynn and hoping that you will see improvement.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 11:40 am:
Thanks Vicki.
I just heard that without a strangles vaccination my horse cannot be moved stables (despite coming from a strangles-free barn with no horses coming in or out). So...I don't see any options but leaving him confined all day (where he will run in circles) or turning him out with his friends and have him run around with them on the uneven, frozen paddock. Sometimes it just feels that the world likes to give you a bit of a kick when you are down just for the fun of it. Trying to do the right thing is turning out to be beyond my reach.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 11:54 am:
So sorry your poor guy is having such a problem. Maybe I missed something, but why don't you just give him a strangles shot? Are you concerned about a reaction?
btw, we boarded a TB that had navicular and he was fine for light work; never had a problem with proper foot care. I know it depends on severity of the case, but it's not always the "end of the world" that it initally seems to be.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 1:17 pm:
Hi Sara,
Thanks for your post. The problem is that the strangles vaccine requires two shots, 1-2 weeks apart, and the other barn requires a 2 week period of quarantine (and my vet is out of town for the next week). So...that means one month before he gets to go anywhere. I realize this likely sounds all very simple but our turnout options are very limited and my job does not allow the horse to always come first. I just hate the idea of potentially ruining his chances.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 2:23 pm:
So frustrating! Do you happen to have a neighborhood teenager that could walk the horse for you? Or anyone you could pay to walk him until he was well enough for turnout? Of course, it would have to be someone you could trust with him, and there probably "lies the rub." I wish you luck!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2011 - 8:18 pm:
I like all the steps taken to ease breakover.
DrO
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2011 - 7:29 am:
Hi Sara,
Thanks for the ideas. Unfortunately the barn is located quite a way from town with few houses around. I would also worry about someone that does not normally work with horses walking a stall-rested one. My coach is currently in Florida but I will call and see if she has any ideas. She won't be happy that we were refused entry to another barn (and that might just end up in an ugly pile of inter-barn politics).
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2011 - 10:42 am:
Boarding has it's down side; but so does keeping a horse at home. It's often difficult balancing family, work and horses. Hope you can work something out without too many dramatics!
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2011 - 7:28 am:
Hi Dr O,
Here is the discharge information for my horse from his MRI at the University of Guelph. The details are in the case study portion of the report. The horse is currently turned out by himself adjacent to a group of horses. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Lynn
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2011 - 8:05 am:
So sorry to read of the guarded prognosis Lynn. How is your boy doing this month?
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2011 - 8:38 am:
Hi Vicki,
I managed to move him down the road to a place where he can be turned out alone. He still moves around more than I would like but is not being pushed by his pals, and this paddock is on level ground. He is still a grade 4 lame but seems to be standing more evenly since we started the individual turnout. Hard to believe that this is my young jumper. He's a real trooper and just takes everything in stride. I, on the other hand, seem to have developed the ability to cry at sight of anyone actually riding a horse. I suppose this gets easier with time?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2011 - 9:23 am:
It probably wouldn't get much easier for me in time; I'd more than likely remortgage the house if I could squeeze it past the husband and buy another horse.... It is fortunate that there was a place close to you for him.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Monday, Mar 28, 2011 - 9:41 am:
The horse is actually up the road from his original barn, not up the road from my home . Although it is only about a 1/2 hour drive to get there. There are several nice horses available for me to ride but I'm afraid I am just not there yet. I was so careful with this one and we worked together 5-6 days/week (flatting in ring and field, hacking, lessons; always choosing the best footing). I suppose that I just need a little more time to get used to the idea.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 30, 2011 - 7:52 am:
Hi Dr. O.,
Just wondering if you got a chance to take a look at the results from my horse's MRI posted above. I do have a few MRI images I can post to go along with it if necessary.
Thanks
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2011 - 7:51 pm:
I have a foundered 23 year old horse that I rode for 15 years after she foundered. (She actually foundered multiple times as I didn't realize that one of the problems was that she was eating acorns on our property.) She had always been barefoot, and I kept her that way. I got frustrated by my farrier as he was keeping the toes too long. The vet agreed, and due to how quickly her foundered feet needed to be touched up, I decided to just do them myself. ....and I have been now for 15+ years.
It takes about a year for a hoof to completely grow out. I was surprised to see how well her feet repaired themselves. You could see the sole getting sucked back up, and she now has quite a bit of concavity in her feet.
I rode her with hoof boots, and they made a significant difference on how sound she was. Even my unfoundered horses, will plow over rocky stream beds with EZ boots on, instead of carefully picking their way with bare feet.
She is also out on three acres, and can wear her feet down naturally. So I just keep the toes back and the heels low, touching up any flares. I only use a rasp and leave the sole and the frog alone.
The one thing I always notice is that my barefoot horses have a very low heel compared to a horse that has been shod.
There are quite a few barefoot sites claiming that a correct barefoot trim can ease the pain of Navicular.
I wonder what would happen if you started a natural barefoot trim regimen combined with free exercise if that would do anything for him.
How old is he?
PS I also had a mare with ring bone, and the farrier put pads and rollers on her, and she could barely move. So we yanked the shoes and kept her barefoot.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2011 - 8:03 am:
Hi Laurie,
Thanks for the input. The horse is just turning 8 in May. Unfortunately, the MRI revealed what is generally considered to be a vary nasty version of navicular synDrOme.
The horse is actually currently barefoot as he seemed most comfortable that way during the early (and very acute) stages. I am "gently" discussing with my farrier why the horse is trimmed the way he is. However, his heels are lower than in the above picture and the toes are backed up more. By most standards, his feet look good. The vets that did the MRI were very surprised that a horse with his hooves would show up with navicular. I still have a bit of a concern with the height of the wall at the heel being quite a bit higher than the sole. The horse is out on soft ground and I have asked my farrier to leave the frogs be unless there are bits hanging off that might trap moisture. It does tempt one to give it a try themselves but I am not willing to risk that at this stage - I don't seem to have the same level of ability on that front that many on here do .
The MRI showed a significant amount of soft tissue damage such that even the daily turnout with his 3 buddies is likely more exercise than he should be getting. I did manage to get him on turnout alone for 3 weeks which helped him. He is still off at the walk but much better than he was after returning from the 7.5 hours trailer ride from the University. Going through the large number of posts here, you will see that this is what has generally been happening. He is standing even most of of the time now and can be seen fully loading the bad foot regularly (as he reaches for food or whatever he is playing with at the time). There is no longer any swelling and the leg and foot are cool. Keep your fingers crossed. I would not consider riding this horse until the fall at the earliest (walk around the field) then would lay him off until spring. Come spring, I will decide whether we want to see what he can do or just try to find him a new home. Unfortunately, he is too young for an inexperienced rider and, my vet claims, too big and costly to feed for a companion horse. I don't own my own farm and am not financially able to maintain two.
I just tried a round of Tildren to see if we can help the bone out while the soft tissue attempts to heal. Not sure what the likelihood of that actually happening is, but university vets and those from the clinic from which I got a second opinion on the MRI said that the chances of the horse returning to soundness was "guarded at best". Based on the literature it does not appear that they were being particularly pessimistic. You can see that part of this story posted under the medications/tildren/ section. I think I called it "giving Tildren a try".
I am neither for or against putting shoes on horses. I have generally ridden horses that wore shoes simply because of the type and amount of work that they did. At some point I will likely need to try putting shoes on my horse again to see if they will help him out but, given his history to date, I am hesitant to do that. Tough decision on this horse. The other young navicular horse in the barn was barefoot for two years and we saw great improvement when shoes were put on.
Thanks again for the input, much appreciated.
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Member:
lsweeney
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 28, 2011 - 5:42 pm:
Before you put shoes on, I would definitely try out some boots. The upside is that they can come on and off, are significantly less expensive than maintaining a shod horse, and are less invasive to the hoof. Additionally, they have protection over the whole sole.
I think the real purpose of my post was to give you some hope in that I was able to get lots of riding out of an insulin resistant, multiple foundered horse.
Regarding shoes, I'm for what works. ;-)
I don't know if any of these articles would be helpful:
https://www.hoofcure.com/navicular.htm
https://www.thehorseshoof.com/Snavicular.html
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2011 - 7:41 am:
Thanks Laurie, you've obviously done a great job with your critter. I haven't deal with laminitis but it sounds like a pretty incredible challenge.
I have read the strausser stuff on navicular and think that some of it makes sense and some of it I completely disagree with. But I guess that is the "art" part of it .
I totally see using boots for something that is a result of sole pain but...when I think of them in view of navicular, it just seems to me that they will be adding weight and making breakover even harder. My horse actually showed improvement in times when the ground was frozen and icy (only to go lame when we started riding again) so, it looks like he isn't bothered by hard ground. Actually the vets pointed out how tough his walls and soles were. Either way, the ground is mostly thawed out now (except for a few icy sections still left), so sole pain should not be an issue. I also add a sole hardener once per week (Rickens).
Just out of curiosity, do you leave those boots on for turnout regularly? I always wondered how people deal with the issues of mud and water getting in there.
Cheers
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Member:
paul303
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Posted on Friday, Apr 29, 2011 - 11:40 pm:
Back in 1980, I foaled my dream reiner. She was a Dude, King Ranch bred filly, and if you remember those breeding lines, you know that she was that old typical bulldog quarter horse with tiny feet. Long toe, low heel was the trim of choice back then. Her training went well, but after her first year of heavy training and showing, that characteristic head bob began to emerge. After intense diagnostics available back then, the old term of the time, "lollipop lesions" emerge
By 1986, her "career" was virtually over. Since then, I've learned an incredible amount about navicular. Heart shoes and bar shoes are bad. A rockered toe works - but ROCKER that toe! It should look like a ski jump. The shoe should gently flow along and match the trim exactly! Rockering is NOT beveling. My mare has raised heels with degree pads. She has been shod this way since the nineties. I don't know if the degree pads apply anymore...the raised heels and rockered toe might not apply currently with the "barefoot thinking". I DO know, that this manner of shoeing has kept my mare sound for over 20 years. I CAN also say that upon losing one of her raised heel rockered toe shoes, she bowed a tendon at 21 years old. So...I never miss her shoeing appointments every 5 week
Yessss, She lost her career many years ago... But what I've learned from this horse is not measurable. We stopped riding her 2 years ago, at 29 years old. She was on bute for nearly 18 years...with no ill effects. In 2008, we tried previcox with very good results. That is what we medicate with now. She is shod every 5 weeks and receives her previcox and 2mg pergolide mesylate daily ( for her Cushings ).
So...yeah, there IS life after a navicular diagnosis. I probably know everything there is to know about navicular theory since 1985, thanks to my mare. It's been an incredible journey since the eighties. The changes have been incredible to witness. But it's been a blessing to look out my window each morning and to see my baby hang her head out of her stall...at 31.
Thanks Dr.O et al.
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