This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Neurological Conditions Not Covered Above » Head Shaking »
  Discussion on Neurological Condition: "Photic Headtossing"
Author Message
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 14, 2005 - 5:32 pm:

Dr.O. I have tried getting this posted several times with no luck. Something always happens, either on your end or mine.
I promised Dr. O. I would mention this in the related neurological section on “head shaking” or “tossing.
Several years ago we had a horse named Copper who was a small 16 year old quarter horse - quiet, willing, and fairly gentle. In May 2002 on a Friday, naturally, he began to shake his head, out in the field as if fly’s or the like, were bothering him. The shaking continued with no let up, so we brought him in. We checked him out in a small paddock, there was nothing obvious, but he continued to head shake. We put him up in the stall for the day and he quieted down. We turned him out that night, only to discover the next morning, copper charging about the field throwing his head wildly. This was definitely a hairy situation as it was dangerous to try to approach him to put him in halter.
We finally decided to open the gate and his stall door and just let him run in. That worked; he sought out a dark corner of stall; and settled down. We decided to call the veterinary service that was on call in the area for emergencies, and let them check copper out. They decided it might be his teeth. When in doubt blame the teeth. Since copper had been stalled they did not have the time to see him at his worse throwing his head in the field only a little head shaking under halter, and then back in stall.
Repeated the process Sunday same results. We Called another Vet, this time possible brain tumor, or seizures of some type. That night went on the Web to horse advisor site. Found Dr. O’s article, as well as several others on Photic Sensitivity. Symptoms fit Copper to a T.
Since the neighbors regular Vet was out of town, on Monday we were able to get a retired Veterinarian who use to work on all of his horses, including Copper. He checked out the horse thoroughly, and said he had what he called “Sun Allergy”. Said he had seen it before, expensive to treat. Suggested some interim steps such as blackened fly mask etc. No joy. I showed him the article on Photic sensitivity and he said that was it. Said both meds recommended were extremely expensive and no guarantee.
Regular Vet came back Tuesday and examined the hoarse. She did some neurological tests and all were o.k. except when exposing Copper directly to sun. He began to toss head violently even under halter, so took him back to stall. Hoarse had then been on cypro one day, one dose. Vet said to try it for a week and see what happens, she suggested it might have to be used in conjunction with the very expensive benzo noted in article on Photic Sensitivity. Showed her the article and she had no problems, and agreed one hundred percent. Said this was the first hoarse she had treated with the condition. Owner said three hundred dollar Benzo in conjunction with 100 plus dollar cypro monthly was out of the question and unaffordable. Vet stated she would do some research.

Bottom line, sorry to take so long to get to it, was Vet suggested we try melatonin! That’s right, good old over the counter, in the Vitamin section $5 a bottle melatonin! We used the 3mg tablets which are very small and were mixed in with his feed. He never knew they were there. She suggested we start Copper on 15 mg per day along with the cypro. Then withdraw cypro from copper and see what happens. In three days copper was no longer head shaking in full sun. Then we withdrew the cypro, still no headshaking. She then suggested DrOpping him to 12 mg. a day. Still no head shaking. We then tried 9 mg, head shaking resumed. Went back to twelve mg copper was fine, and still is. Although he has been sold, not because of problem, since it was now easily managed. A family bought him with a couple of young teenagers. Gave them full history, and emphasized need to continue medication. They are having zero problems and it’s been 3 years since onset.

Med regiment is simple start dosing the hoarse in early May as the sun angle gets higher and continue to late September early August when the angle and intensity are minimal.
A couple of things we discovered, and at least in Coppers case they were important. We used straight melatonin, no additives such as vitamin e or Zinc. For some reason this negated the beneficial impact. Also, had to stick to same brand, again don’t know why. But if we did vary the brand with no additives, that we began the year with (in May), Copper would head toss. It would take three days of original tablets to get him back in order. Go figure. Same for additives even if we used the same brand name, but with say Vitamin E, it did not work. Maybe Dr. O. Has explaination for this?

Well this is a long post, but hope it is useful. I discovered there is a lot of herbal stuff out there for this condition but don’t waste your money, or time unless approved by Vet. Also, when symptoms arise such as coppers don’t be satisfied with knee jerk diagnosis such as behavior, or teeth or tumor. Check the resources on the issue first.

In this case owe a lot to Dr. O. (no pun intended) sense he put us on right path with article). Photic sensitivity, who ever heard of Photic sensitivity? Believe me some of our friends thought we were nuts. We had last laugh, or was it copper?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 - 8:32 am:

Thanks for the update Francis, I believe this is the first melatonin responsive head shaker that I have personally heard of, though there are a few in the literature. Cypro has been very effective in most but glad to hear this worked for you. Vit E is a free radical scavenger and this is thought to have an allergic component that would not be effected by free radicals.

I found your other post on this subject and it was at the bottom on another posters discussion, I will remove it.
DrO
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 - 9:15 pm:

That is interesting Dr. O since the cypro had zero effect on copper. Just to make sure I got my facts right; after the retired Vet checked the horse he gave the owner, well at cost, a bottle of cypro. He had a pharmacist make it up. Copper was on it for over seven days with no results when the regular vet intervened with the melatonin idea. Copper was on both cypro and melatonin for three days before the former was withdrawn. Copper has been good to go since, after experimenting with the dosage and settling on 12mg (four 3mg tablets), which works.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Friday, Jun 17, 2005 - 1:15 am:

Fran, Many thanks for taking the time to let us all know about this personal experience. In a time where fantastic claims are used to extol the virtues of an unlimited array of supplements, hearing a true story is like a breath of fresh air. So many claims for supplements are so unverifyable like: he SEEMS calmer, she's not so MAREISH, he's less aggressive, she's so HAPPY! But when there is violent head shaking, and then there is NO head shaking....well, that seems pretty cut and dried.
It's the kind of black and white fact that it would be nice to have for other supplements that lack scientific studies and research.
Member:
Sycamore

Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 2:17 pm:

Can you share the brand name of the melatonin that works for you? I am getting by with my mare with 3 3mg melatonins at night and 4 or 5 cypros in the AM. I would love to be able to switch to the less expensive and over the counter meds exclusively. I have also found she doesn't seem to be able to concentrate as well as she did before she got this synDrOme. I feel like I'm constantly giving her sleeping medication.
Patti
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 3:28 pm:

I used "Natures Bounty", I believe it is trade-marked and comes in standard 3 mg tablets. I also used another brand with success one year as I could not get hold of the afore-mentioned at the time I needed it. I believe it was sun-something, or at least had the sun symbol. May be wrong on the last but dom't think so. Anyway, "Natures Bounty" brand seems to be available at most drug stores and I found that the Pharmacist will order it, even though it is across the counter. Again we started "Copper" at 15 Mg. in conjunction with cypro. We then weaned him from cypro, as by itself before Melatonin it was having no effect at all. We DrOpped copper, who was a small horse, down to 12mg, then 9mg. At 9mg the head tossing started back so went to 12 and that is were he still is. Key was no additives in melatonin. Just that and that alone. As noted with Vitamin E or Zinc for some reason it did not work. Also, we found that switching brands, even if they contained only melatonin, was a problem. The key was consistency with the same brand all year. Maybe it had something to do with the fillers or binding agents for the pill?

As for cypro I am not sure of the sedative nature of that Rx med. Dr.O. would know.

Also, if I recall the cyprohiptadine we were giving copper was in liquid, vice pill or capsule form as your post implies. We had to have it actually made up at a local pharmacy, one of the few in our area, that actually does it's own compounding.

Dr.O can you help here?? Curious about cypro, does it come in multiple forms??
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Monday, Jul 11, 2005 - 3:49 pm:

Oop's sorry for the spelling error it is cyproheptidine!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 12, 2005 - 10:31 am:

Check out Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Miscellaneous Drugs » Cyproheptadine I think it answers all your questions.
DrO
Member:
Fla1942

Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 10:57 pm:

I've read the article and the discussions about head shaking or tossing. I have a 3 year old quarter horse gelding who recently has exhibited this behavior. He has never been ridden. Is this something that needs to be treated; ie; is the condition something that will progress if not treated? Since he is not being ridden I am most concerned about his discomfort or the issue of progression of the condition. I have not yet been able to tie it to particularly sunny days or any other variable. He is pastured 24/7; we live in Texas. Thanks for your help.
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 1:25 am:

Barbara
This sounds like one for Dr.O. I know the experience I had with the horse Cooper, a 16 year old quarter horse gelding. With that horse the condition was "activated" by sun angle, i.e. time of year. In the winter time no mater how bright the sun, even when shinning on snow covered fields, copper did not head toss, or require medication (melatonin in this case), but as the sun crept higher in the sky come about mid May it would start, and from trial we learned that it would continue till about late Sept, early Oct. Then it would go into remission for lack of better term.

This is Dr. O's bag, but seems like wrong time of year for head tossing related to phoetic sensitivity, all-though you are further South than Va. and thus have a higher winter sun angle. My understanding is that head tossing can be a result of a number of different causes; Including, but not limited to Phoetic Sensitivity.

I lucked out in coppers case as he basically showed us what was wrong. When he literally ran nto his stall tossing his head violently he would seek out darkest corner of stall. Within minutes the head tossing would stop. Clearly darkened area out of suns rays gave him relief. For the record blackened fly mask did not give him any at all.

I don't know about progression if it is phoetic headshaking. In coppers case it just started up full boar. No slight twitching of head and then mild throwing, if was full bore up and down and circular, till he was in darkened stall, or after we discovered the melatonin. Then it simply went away and stayed away as long as he was on med.

For your info when cooper started the violent head tossing I considered him a danger to himself, the other horses, and people. As he could not be handled when he was charging about head tossing. As I noted, we had to open the gate and let him run into his stall, so he could get relieve. To approach him and try to put him in halter when he was charging and tossing about was asking for it.

You may want to have your Vet check it out. Again it did not, in coppers case, start out as slight twitching, intermittent shaking or throwing, rather it was full blown from the start and did not improve untill horse was in darkness or untill we discovered the melatonin.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 8:22 am:

Barbara, I agree with Francis that the presentation during the middle of the winter is a little odd for photic headshaking. If it is, yes it will probably worsen during the summer.
DrO
PS: Barbara, you should post new questions about your horse in a new discussion rather than interrupting Francis' discussion. You will get better responses and it helps keeps these sections neater. There is a start new discussion link at the bottom of the list of discussions.
Member:
Fla1942

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 8:08 pm:

Thanks. Sorry about the interruption. I've been a member for a long time but haven't done many postings.
Member:
Frankdun

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 7, 2006 - 8:44 pm:

Barbara
No problem with me but Dr.O. has site rules. Posted my original as I promised Dr. O. I would. Hopefully this will help other members who experience the same frustrating problem.
Good Luck
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC