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  Discussion on Ataxia 3 week old foal
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New Member:
jodie3

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 12:53 am:

I have a 3 week old cremello quarter horse filly that has ataxia. At first i thought she was a "dummy foal", but now I am suspecting a head or neck trauma or a malformation. i have loads of daily observations documented if anyone would have any advice on a possible cause, any direction in treatment and what her chances of recovery are??
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 2:21 pm:

Hi Jodie what is your filly acting like? Does she nurse?
New Member:
jodie3

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 6:51 pm:

Day 1
The foal was born and was found 2 to 5 hours after birth (half dry). The placenta and cord was wrapped tightly around her girth and she was trying to get up but seamed to have problems with her back legs (sitting like a dog). Normal for a fresh foal, but no improvement after a couple of hours.
there was evidence of a difficult birth as ground had a lot of marks from mares legs. Foal was a little early (8 days?).
We helped foal to nurse. Foals suckling reflex was good, but she was too heavy to continue fully supporting her weight, decided to milk mare and bottle feed filly for the first 24 hours.
Day 2
Filly has gained strength and we are now showing her the bottle from the udder position to get her used to feeding from mare. We are supporting her in a towel sling, two people at each end while one person feeds from other side of mare (nice quiet mare). She is weak and un stable.
Day 3
Filly has learnt how to suckle from mare. When she has finished drinking we lay her on a matress to avoid pressure spores, now she begins to struggle on her side when wanting a feed. We pick her up every couple of hours to feed, now supporting 50 % of her weight (mainly her hind).
Day 4
Filly is more active and is starting to get pressure sores on her joints and points mainly on one side. (struggles off matress onto ground) Filly is taking her own weight, but wobbles badly in hind end. Holding the hind steady helps.
Day 5
Filly can stand on her own and uses her mum's body to help balance.
We notice that sometimes her left eye looks down a little while the other is looking at you, but seems to be when laying down on her left side and she lifts her head to look at you. seams to be completely deaf...not responding to any noises.
Day 6,7,8
Filly has managed to get up on her own but after an hour stumbles side ways and falls hard as she seams to get stiff legged as she stumbles, launching her a little before she lands. She struggles to get back up, then gives up after a few seconds to rest.
Day 9
Filly has learnt to get up herself by sitting like a dog, and rocking several times ..... then manages to get up.
We notice her head carriage is slightly to the right.
New Member:
jodie3

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 6:59 pm:

We put foal on antibiotics as she had a temp(40.2)
Observing her over the next few days,... we see she gets up more easily when she is laying on her right side. Her left side has 4 times worse pressure sores than her right side. Filly in not deaf as she now hears us or the car and whinnies to us as she relates us to food/help. she responds to noise now.
When the filly losses balance her hind quarter spins around to the right, when she walks ,Her hind quarter crabs sideways to the right, sometimes
her front feet take little trot steps, allowing her hind to overtake her front.
Looks a little like a helicopter, when she looks like she losses balance.....front end stops, but hind keeps going.
Occasionally she will walk out after mum and her left hind cannon will lock up behind her left hind cannon and she will skip a little then that left hind will function normally for the next few strides then if she tries to go faster, it cross and lock up behind again (missing that one foot placement on the ground). Looks like she is trying to trip her self up.
3 weeks old
Pressure sores are all healed.
We have noticed her sleeping standing up the other day. Not swaying in the hind at all. the moment she opened her eyes she would sway in hind, then stabilize after 20 seconds.
She still crabs, but not as bad. Her feet seamed to have learnt to walk at similar speed, but the front feet still short stride. No more helicopter unless going downhill and she losses balance. She catches herself before a fall now. (except for the unsuspecting ditch or hole)
She loves her mum's hay, and bends her front legs at the knee and fetlock joint to get to grass(back legs bend as well). Does not seem to be able to lower her neck or has not learnt to spread her front legs. She grazes in between her front feet.
Next week , filly will be one month old. we have just started her on a antiinflammatory paste and vitamin b injections. At first we thought we had a dummy foal from a difficult birth ?lack of oxygen.......now i am wondering if she has a spinal deformity or injury. Trying to decide what her best chances will be and what treatment could help her.
We have been doing some physio with her, just do not want to get too attached in case she becomes dangerous to us or herself as she gets bigger.
My daughter , Tahlia is 15 and is study well at school to go the Gatton university to go for an bachelor in applied science to then move onto towards a specialised equine field. Anything we learn from this little filly will be a benefit even if her prognosis is not good, but need to make sure she is not in pain.

Filly seems alert in the mind, other wise we would have put her down in the beginning. She has been improving, but slowly. She is now standing up for hours on end, nursing every hour. Still has trouble getting up if she lands on her bad side. I have noticed the muscle is less developed done the side of neck that her head used to slightly curve toward.
Thinking back, mare had injury to abdomen when she was 4 or 5 month pregnant. Somehow managed to stake herself with a large knife size piece of wood (from old fence post hidden in dam maybe?). Stake went in just in front of near hind leg and she must have backed up. It followed her belly shape avoiding penetration or any organs. We sedated the mare and Ben entered wound with endo scope to confirm no debris was still in large puncture wound. We flushed it and gave mare anti biotics. Not sure if impact could damage 1/2 formed foal or not?
Trying to work out to keep going with what we are doing, get x rays, or put her down. Everyone one we know has different opinion.
any advice on next direction would be fantastic.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 7:51 pm:

What a story, poor little girl. Have you had a vet look at her at all?? As you probably know so many things can go wrong at birth (but usually don't)

We have cattle too, and your story kind of reminds me of one of our newborn calves that mother stepped on shortly after birth. Banamine helped the calf out, and eventually he did come right.

I would be inclined to have a vets opinion if possible.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 9:05 pm:

Luckily in our years of breeding we never ran into anything like this. A fetus could be injured, but I think it's pretty unlikely. It would be a real quirky twist if it was. The fetus is pretty well protected. We bred Arabians, so I'm not up on all of the possible genetic conditions that can occur with QH. Are you? And would any of them be possible? Was dam in good health and condition? Did she get plenty of exercise while pg? Was the filly big for the mare? I ask because if the foal didn't move around enough it can cause some problems sometimes. Sounds like you are doing the right things for her and that she is improving. I hope she continues to do so.
New Member:
jodie3

Posted on Sunday, Dec 5, 2010 - 11:44 pm:

thank you for your response, the mare is in good health but is 18 years old. Her last foal was a long time ago. She has had 3 health foals in the past. The mare runs with a small herd of mares/foals (12 mares). All other foaling with other mares was normal. She gets plenty of natural exercise, and plenty of good feed. Mineral supplements available to entire group of girls and foals. The only change in diet to the others was this mare (and one other) have taken a shine to walking into the dam to eat some waterplants.....mainly water lillies. The other mare that did this did have an episode where we thought she would lose her foal at 8 months, but the vet came we manage to get the mare better and she retained her foal and is due to foal this week. All mares away from dam area now due to foaling season.
Filly seems to have limited movement around shoulder blades...where her withers will be when she grows. Little steps with front legs......unable to or reluctant spread front legs in order to eat grass (prefers to bends all limbs to squat down). Also has trouble getting her neck around enough to get up......like she is cast? but mainly one side. She does not like pressure on her poll or neck and tends to rear up then goes over backwards so we have learnt not to apply ANY weight or pressure to that area. Not sure if it is pain related or basic foal resistance with lack of motor control???
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 12:42 am:

Has the vet taken a look at her and if so, what did he say? It's impossible to diagnose over the internet, as you know, and I'm not a vet. If it is something like an injury or something that needs correcting, usually the sooner the better. It's easier to treat things usually while the bones are still softer. I kind of wonder if it wasn't a traumatic birth and she sustained either some nerve damage or an injury. Aside from the evidence of the mare moving around more than normal, were there any other signs of a difficult birth? Did the mare look good with no tears? Did she look like she had been extra sweaty. Was the placenta intact?
New Member:
jodie3

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 1:28 am:

When first born< phoned one of our equine vets about her symptoms and because she was crossed eyed and legs crossing they suspected "dummy foal" and said the nursing care we give would be just as good as what they could do for her if not better as she had our undivided attention. After the initial symptoms reduce, other symptoms arose and pointed towards a malformation pressure or injury.

By day 3 mare needed to be flushed as she was not completely clean.....it was then the vet comfirmed there was quite a large tear. Antibiotics have cleared her up. We put the foal on antibiotics as well due to pressure sores and elevated temp. placenta was intacted and still attached to foal wrapping several times around her stomach/flank area when we first found her. Maybe that restricted her ability to stand up.....maybe her spine was put out??? She was trying to get up when we arrived , but she seemed to anchored to the ground from the middle down. She looked like a frog, but her front legs were pushing back to try and stand, but the compression of this twisted placenta around her abdomen restricted her from standing.
I am not sure which came first. Was there a problem with the foal that causes the difficult birth or did the difficult birth cause the injured or disabled foal. Did the mare stand up as the foal came out, foal landing on her head or neck?? A xray will confirm spinal fracture or malformation, but not spinal pressure or lesions?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 10:37 am:

I don't know about what the x- rays will and won't show. I would think it would depend on the type of equipment used. Do you live within driving distance of a vet school or good clinic, preferably with a good neo-natal unit? It sounds like you folks are taking remarkable measures to help his foal, and that you have a lot of experience. I just don't know how to answer some of the questions you have without the foal being seen by a vet. You can take the course you are taking, and the foal will either recover or it won't. But, if there is something that can be corrected it's easier to do so earlier than later as a rule. And, if the foal needs to be euthanized, IMO it's easier to do that before you have so much time and emotion invested in the poor little thing. It does sound like she is improving with your care, I guess the big question is how much will she be able to improve and if she has brain damage. I wish you well. I hope Dr. O, or someone with more knowledge will comment. Maybe they will have run into something like this and have a little more knowledge. Have you run a search on this site and others for more info?,
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 3:34 pm:

Found the following on an Internet site that listed the five plants most likely to poison dogs
(lilies was #1 on the list):

The ASPCA has listed five poison plants as the deadliest for dogs:

Lilies

The beautiful Lily comes in multitudes of varieties, all are deadly to your dog. All parts of the lily are highly toxic.
Not only is the flowers beauty heart-stopping, scientists have found 38 known cardiac glycosides in the plant.
The Lilly is particularly deadly for cats.

The lily is found in nearly all locales, and warrant particular attention when they are used as part of indoor flower arrangements.
Ironically, the lilies are often given as funeral flowers.

Besides the cardiac threats, the sap of the lily also contains oxalate crystals which can cause mild irritation in humans but can cause fatal swelling by asphyxiation in dogs, in even small amounts.

Therefore, do not even let your dog swim in ponds or lakes with water lilies! Minuscule amounts of even diluted oxalate can cause serious problems for dogs!
Read more at https://www.articlealley.com/article_1663779_54.html?ktrack=kcplink

One certainly must wonder if consuming lilies could potentially injure an unborn fetus?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 3:43 pm:

Welcome Jodie,
I am sorry to hear about your foal. From your posts it is clear that there are neurological issues but where they are located is not clear though there is some indication this problem may be in the brain (the crossed eyes). Certainly cervical spinal disease either from trauma or malformation would be at the top of the list. Anyway, your first step to getting a diagnosis is to localize the lesion as this will lead you to a list of likely rule outs. The article associated with this discussion area covers this and can be reached off the navigation bar above.

As to treatment certainly the fever, possibly do to infection gotten a hold from the sores, needs to be addressed. Otherwise until there is a diagnosis good nursing care of the foal and wounds is about all that is logical.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 4:06 pm:

Vicki, never knew that about lilies. Good to know.
Member:
jodie3

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 6:27 pm:

Hi Sara, thank you yes we are dedicated to all our four legged family. Our vet have been to see her a few times while they were out see other mares of ours. Spinal/brain issues are such a complicted and broad area that vets do not come accross a lot. X rays may not show the real issue anyway, but know we have narrowed things down, I feel they will point to a area to focus on. They may not give a diagnosis, but may help eliminate other possible causes.


Hi Vicki, thank you very much....The lillies containing oxelates is something to consider as this would rob the foal of calcium. This may cause a malformation as the foal evolves or could weaken the bones like honeycomb, making her more suseptable to injury during birth. I did not know that lillies have high oxelates! Just an idea??

I will get X rays asap as I have an email from a Dr Barrie Grant who would love to read them and advise. He is a horse spinal surgeon specialising in wobblers, cervical stabilisation and spinal compression. Sugery will not be considered for this little girl if that is the case, as the cost will be too great.

Thank Dr O for your help as well, I have noticed the eyes are nearly completely normal today. I decided to increase her level of pain releif last night (a gel suitable for foals). In the wee hours of the morning I saw her spread her front legs for the first time to eat grass......this would tell me this may be an injury and some of her lack of co ordination (front end) maybe pain related. After the increased pain relief, the filly stood for 6 hours with out laying down and she got up easily several times when we disturbed her.
The pain relief does have an antiflametry in it as well. Her balance seems a lot better as well.
Thank you all for your input as it really helps placing the puzzle pieces.

ps sorry about spelling, have a visitor will post as is.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Dec 6, 2010 - 8:59 pm:

Hope that things will continue to improve, Jodie.

Sara, I only recently learned how very toxic lilies are, especially to cats, which has made me rethink the ordering of floral arrangements that are to be sent as gifts for households housing pet cats.
Member:
jodie3

Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2010 - 6:52 am:

Well the foal whom we have named Manuka, is now 6 weeks old and is doing a lot better.

She has had xray and no fractures were found, nor was there a malformation. The final xray results were inconclusive, but there was some changes near c6 and c7 that were only very slight, but would need another type of x ray that would show compression.

I am working with the foal daily and physio is working well, but she still does have difficulty with her hind leg spasms up across the other one. I am now suspecting a nerve damage.

manuka is very tight around her neck area, and once I loosen her up, her balance is at 70%. She does still fall over if she loses balance to the side (hind) and she is on a hill. She is not quite quick enough to catch her self.

Manuka is standing for hours a day, but does not lie down or get up easily. She seams really rigid in the shoulder area. Manuka still does not spread her front legs to graze, but kneels down as if she is about to bow. I have just started working on releasing the two traverse pectoral muscles i think. i am not sure if her thoracic is damaged or if it may be her brachial plexus that has been torn? or stretched. Manuka is still taking smaller steps in her front legs, but does get 25% better after physio. She lets me know if i am working on a sore spot and if she is enjoying it or not.

I have just started her on Devil claw as a pain relief. Seems to be working well.

Does anyone know the treatment for nerve damage to the c6, c7, T1 area would be?

At first manuka did present with some neurological problems, but she has recovered form them. I did read that Shoulder dystocia ( form difficult birth) could cause lack of blood supply to the brain to cause some issues, but she is now acting quick normal mentally. Mare did have a bad tear in her cervix and there was strong evidence of a difficult birth.

Manuka is very bright, recognises many different things ( her feed bucket and not to go to her mums feed bucket, the water dish, watches other foals, puts her ears back at our dogs after they licked her on the nose and she got a fright, spray bottles filled with antiseptic, brushes, and us) and she responds to these things as a normal foal does.......she just has trouble with her shoulders being able to free up (witch is affecting her ability to get up or down to sleep) and also has mild ataxia in her hind legs with some spasms when she tries to walk fast to catch up her up.

Any advice on treatment or diagnosis would be helpful?

Jodie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2010 - 9:49 am:

Hello jodie,
As to the diagnosis of spinal cord injury vs peripheral nerve (brachial plexus) injury usually the latter will appear as simple muscle weakness and be rapidly followed by muscle atrophy. You may also be able to find areas where there is no sensation of pain. Spinal cord injury causes weakness and incoordination below (caudal) to the lesion. The involvement of front and rear legs is suggestive of a lesion in the cervical vertebrae.

Not knowing the cause it is difficult to recommend a treatment but if you and your veterinarian believe congenital cervical stenosis is a possibility I would follow the protocol outlined in HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » Wobblers or Cervical Stenotic Myelopathy.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Dec 18, 2010 - 12:52 pm:

Hope that the condition will continue to improve, Jodie. Youngsters can be very resilient given time and care.
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