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Discussion on Very itchy pony - vets out of depth
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New Member:
silver
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2011 - 3:44 pm:
Having been nosy-ing on here for months now I decided to sign up - if anyone can help, I'm hopeful you can! There is some fantastic stuff on here 
Sorry in advance for a horrendously long post!
Background to pony:
12hh Welsh grey mare... I got her nearly two years ago, she was a rescue pony - abandoned and abused. I have no idea what happened to her, other than from what she is petrified of (anything belt like - weigh tapes, hoses etc). We have come along way - she used to bite/trample/kick anyone or anything (inc other horses) that came near. She is lovely girl, and although stroppy and stubborn at times, is one in a million.
Background to health:
She is very hard to get weight off - the best we managed was 238kg on weigh tape and she still had more to lose. She is currently at around 300kg and its not going anywhere despite the snow!
She has a recurrent lameness problem, she becomes unlevel in her pelvis and doesn't track up properly, and "hitches" with her near hind. This has happened three times so far and each "bout" lasts about 8 weeks.
She is a chronic lami, but is currently barefoot. She is very sensitive to summer grass and becomes footy easily in summer - she is managed accordingly to accomodate this.
ALlergies:
She suffers from some kind of allergy. She was allergy tested last year (via serum), which came back as reactive to beech trees, cockroaches, mimosa trees, dusts and moulds - but negative to midges/mozzies etc.
The allergies plague her worst from May-October, but she is rugged from Feb-November. The sores start as 3cm wide hives, which she chews and then they weep plasma/pus and crust over. She continues itching them until they bleed and she is hairless. If left unrugged, she would be covered in them from head to tail - much like how this looks:
She wears a snuggy hood (body and hood), with tummy piece and udder guard. She has a summer sheet combo over the top to protect the snuggy hood as she ruins them in weeks despite no wire fencing or trees - all done on the field shelter. Last summer she had sores all around her eyes and nostrils and all over her legs. It seems to be a systemic reaction - she still rubs out her mane and tail even though there are no sores on them. He tail and crest is permenantly swollen all summer also.
As a management, as well as rugging - she has her tail washed every other day in an antidandruff menthol shampoo which seems to ease it and gets rid of the scurf. She is plastered in sudocream, and citronella oil (sprayed on).
Her diet is a mollasses free chaff (lami prone) with NAF slimline to ensure she has all the vits and mins she needs - it really is a small handful though of chaff as a mixer.
We have tried varied things but found thus far these are the best - she has reacted to some fly sprays and shampoos etc, and the same to feeds.
She lives out 24/7 as being stabled makes her agitated when she is itchy and actually does more harm than if she was out. In summer she lived on a 20mx10m patch of mud though this year I hope to set up a paddock paradise.
She does not have grass in summer, as consuption also seems to aggrevate the itching - as does being in season.
     
It got so much I hand made her a trouser suit - laughing stock of everyone, but it had to be done.
She will have the same again this year, but put on earlier - just ordered fabric to make new ones.
 
The field is windy, on the top of a hill and exposed. There are trees nearby, but I can't escape that. None in her actual field.
Current position:
She developed a lump between her front legs a week ago today. Chiro thought it was a fatty deposit, thought no more of it - with in three days it had turned into this:
 
Phoned the vet, they said it sounded like a cyst, and phone on Monday to get vet out unless it burst and then call back (it was the weekend).
Vet came out Monday, he was shocked at what he saw - it had gotten even bigger and was going up her neck/round shoulders. He was convinced it was organ failure. He took bloods.
Tuesday evening the bloods came back - I have had explanations for the first set, but not for the protein seperation (due phone call tomorrow).
These are the results and norms:
**RESULTS**
HAEMATOLOGY REPORT
Red Blood Cells *6.43 10^12/l 6.5-12.3
Haemoglobin 11.8 g/dl 11-16
Haematocrit/PCV 0.33 l/l 0.33-0.49
MCV *51.2 fl 38-49
MCHC 36 g/dl 37-40
WBC and DIFFERENTIAL
White Blood Cells 9.8 10^9/l 3.7-11
Neutrophils 72% 7.06 10^9/l 1.5-7.7
Band Forms 0% 0.00 10^9/l 0-0.2
Lymphocytes 23% 2.25 10^9/l 1.0-6.6
Monocytes 3% 0.29 10^9/l 0-0.4
Eosinophils 1% 0.10 10^9/l 0-0.3
Basophils 1% 0.10 10^9/l 0-0.1
Neutrophil:Lymphocyte ratio 3.14 :1
Platelet Count 231 10^9/l 100-400
Platelet comment Numbers appear adequate on the smear
FILM COMMENT Normochromic, normocytic RBCs
No WBC morphological changes
BIOCHEMISTRY REPORT
Alkaline Phosphatase 574 iu/l 228-620
AST 302 iu/l 0-421
Gamma GT 16 iu/l 0-60
GLDH 4 iu/l 0-9
LDH 1146 iu/l 0-1487
Bilirubin (Total) 16.3 umol/l 10.0-40.0
PROTEIN ELECTROPHORESIS
Total Protein 70 g/l 60-80
Albumin 30 g/l 23-36
Globulin 40 g/l 23-41
Albumin:Globulin Ratio 0.75 :1
Urea 3.5 mmol/l 3.5-7.3
Creatinine 60 umol/l 87-163
Calcium 2.83 mmol/l 2.60-3.90
Phosphorus 1.0 mmol/l 0.8-1.8
Calcium:Phosphorus Ratio 2.8 :1 3:1
CK/CPK *355 iu/l 0-150
Fibrinogen 2.0 g/l 2.0-4.0
Bile Acid 3.7 umol/l 0-20
Serum Amyloid A *169.3 mg/L 0 - 20
BIOCHEMISTRY REPORT
PROTEIN ELECTROPHORESIS
Total Protein 70 g/l 60-80
Albumin 30 g/l 23-36
Globulin 40 g/l 23-41
Albumin:Globulin Ratio 0.75 :1
Alpha 1 1.6 g/l 1-7
Alpha 2 6.0 g/l 3-7.4
Beta 1 6.3 g/l 3.1-8.4
Beta 2 4.3 g/l 1.6-6.0
Gamma *20.4 g/l 3.0-11.0
Serum protein electrophoresis shows mild hypergammaglobulinaemia
with a polyclonal spike in gamma region.
The Gamma fraction includes IgG. Increases >14 g/l suggest an
antibody response to infection.
The swelling has now gone down by about 80%, what is left is very hard and her skin is oozing (same as the summer time). She is crusty all up her neck and under her tummy. She keeps trying to bite it and has now chewed one back leg bald in a patch and tried hard to do the other one. She has rubbed top of tail thin again as well.
She isn't (tahnkfully) in organ failure, but it is an allergic reaction.
Absolutley any suggestions would be welcome!!!! I have seriously trawled google for hours over the two summers and cant find anything that relates enough to us. I am particularily interested in the hypergammaglobulinemia - could this be an explanation for why she suffers so badly? or can it also be a transient thing as she is mid-reaction?
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2011 - 6:37 pm:
Dear furball,
I have NO clue what to tell you other than God help this pony and GOD BLESS YOU!!! What a blessing that she was sent to a person who could make a personalized HAZMAT suit of her very own!!! You are an inspiration and I truly hope someone here has helpful suggestions for you. you both deserve that and much more.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2011 - 6:55 pm:
Poor dear; and she's such a cutie! I love her "hazmat" suit as Cyndy calls it.
What has been tried for treatments? antihistamines? Steroids?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2011 - 8:16 pm:
Love her hazmat suit
How old is the pony? Is she on any medication at all? Did she have this condition when you got her or did it develop after you had her for awhile? Has she been de-wormed with Ivermectin regularly? Is she around clover at all, especially alsike?
I think I would try a strong dose of ivermectin 2 weeks apart.
If she is older and prone to laminitis and infections could Cushings disease be involved? Does she have any symptoms of that, her legs look a little hairier than "normal" but hard to tell from the rest of the pics.
All I can come up with, hope you can figure it out, she's a cutie. I love welsh ponies! Have 2 part fat welshes myself
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New Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 2:12 am:
I have no idea what haz mat is!!! They are cotton pyjamas I cut up and made a "harness" to hold them up - so of like dungarees!!!
Sheis wormed regularily though will switch to wom counting first this year prior to worming to prevent her be owing resistant. She was last wormed in November, will be due her tape and red worm dose in feb.... I think! I have a chart I follow so it's on that.
This is the first winter we have had a problem - we love winter normally - she is so happy and comfortable when it snows!!!
Dentist says sheis 15+. She is on no medication apRt from metacam at thenoment for the swelling.
Anti histamines didn't touch the itching, neither did benzyl benzoate (liquid applied to coat). She she has flamazine cream on prescription and bute. Flamazine doesn't help - dirt sticks to it and sores get dirty requiring more bathing - which I do t want to do as I try to only wash legs once a week or so as the scabs come off and slows healing down. Bute can take the edge off, but needs two sachets a day (well over dose!) and effects wear off and sheseems to become immune to it after four days.
I have quieried cushings thewhole time have had her - she is very hairy- she is very find coated in summer yet come winter her mane seems to stand on end frizzy, it grows throughmuch thicker over point of hip bone too. She is urinating a lot more than she used too - in summer she wS urinating twice in a two hour ride - she has never weed under saddle before. Have also queried insulin resistance as she is so hard to get weight off and epsm due to stiffness and the way the stiffness is. Osteo said joints were good, very very good for age and it's muscular rather than arthritic. But I "have bigger things to worry about" apparently. I just want answers to better be able to manage etc or whatever the case is. It's awful in summer when she can't even eat as she is so agitated asshe goes up down up downtown itch on thefloor !
In summer, her skin ismuch like tissue paper - muzzles, rugs etc all leave her withrubs and bald patches yet in winter she is fine.
We tried global herbs skratch last year but I couldn't get her to eat it (not sure if you have global herbs in states-its homeopathic but their products workso so well if you can get them to eat it) we have a pot of fly free to try this year, willbe starting it once metacam runs out so I can introduce really slowly. Steroids are risky due to feet - dunno if thereizno research otherwise but vets arose here not to give steroids to chronic lamis. You can still tell by her feet she has had lamieven though we have a fantastic trimmerand diet watched obsessively. There was query about her having foundered though the foot in question looks nearlynormal now yay!!!
I meant to post pics of her seasons. Will get them up from computer in a minute. I want to get a marble Putin to at least take that worry of our hands- shehasno cycle, it's erratic and triggered as simply as going out for a ride - we often end up having a one week on one week offtypesituation which is a nightmare - dIly bathing as the mess attractsflies grrrr!
Thank you for your kind words! Lovely to wake up too! I don't always feel like the best mumbut I do try!! Just wish vets could help-think this is more than a straight forward sweetitch.
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New Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 3:00 am:
Right some photos of her seasons:
  
The funny pattern at the back is where her rug catches it - needless to say rugs are washed daily when in season due to flies.
This is her "harness" - this year will be velcroing them to the rug - harness didnt work too well!
She had this when I got her - she was bald all over, covered in sores with no mane or tail. So you can see by that just how much a difference rugging makes.
There is clover in the field - though it is only around the field shelter from where previous "tenants" wore the grass out. Rest of the paddock is too lush - we are only on three acres, with two ponies but I have to get next door in to eat it down for us as we can't eat that much! It is a nice mix of grasses - it used to be used to make meadow hay.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 6:54 am:
She is a plump one. Her heat cycle looks quite messy!
I suppose there are many things this could be, did you read through the articles to see if anything sounded familiar?
You could be dealing with 2 different entities as far as heat cycles, laminitis, ect. She looks like she could be IR and/or cushings, which could exuberate a skin condition. IME extremely metabolic horses can manifest some strange symptoms when their IR is out of control. Hank and Flash... both have a little welsh in them Were itching the hair off their faces and polls, got open sores and scabs much like your ponies face/ poll looks. Dermavet helped them greatly. I de-wormed them twice with ivermectin and put them in a dry lot and it went away. It didn't affect their bodies much though, and it was before bug season.
Hope Dr.O. has some ideas for you
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 11:57 am:
Good morning. While she may be IR or cushings, I don't believe that is her main problem. Like you I would think she is having allergic reactions. I can't interpret blood work obviously; you'll need the vet to do that. I imagine Dr.O will comment on here.
There have been other posts in the past regarding allergic reactions and hives; do a search and you might find some helpful information.
We had one of our stallions have severe hives two or three summers in a row. It was so bad that even his upper hind legs and his testicles were swollen. He was at the vet's for three days undergoing tests and we tried everything we could think of - changing bedding, cutting out all shampoos, sprays etc. We never did find out what caused his problem. The only thing that seemed to get him over it was a series of cortisone shots, which cleared him up totally. After two seasons of having the shots, he's never had another problem. This guy was in excellent health other than the terrible hives.
I noticed you mentioned clover; quite a few horses can have allergies to it. I would try and limit what the pony eats and notice what she is eating when the hives start. Also, what grasses, flowers and trees are in bloom? Sometimes the reaction is to inhaled substances. Once the hystamines are activated it seems that the body over-reacts to everything -bug bites, sprays, things that under normal circumstances wouldn't bother. I think this is one thing that makes the cause so hard to figure out.
Has the vet talked about steroids? It might be worth a discussion. Good luck with her.
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New Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 12:20 pm:
This site has been a source if very useful information so far - hence I signed up - have numerous threads in bookmarks!!!! It's also very interesting - bit geeky but I find it all really interesting hehe.
Diet is strict - the plain chaff with mint and slimline supplement. Taking her off garlic seems to have helped but that's not 100% certain as other things happened at same time.
Winter they have about 1.5 acres of grazing, no hay unless deep snow (over 6-8") and then it's about 3kg a day between two. This winter is hard- she is much more comfy in a rug (180gm) egress other winters she has stayed naked all the time.
Summer they have about 7kg of hay a day with only nettles to eat though this was a trial last year. This year she will hopefully be on a track system if minimal grass and several hay point for movement. I managed to get her to 240kg with blood sweat an tears. She was up until last weekend being ridden 3-4 times a week, for 2-4hours a time and doing about 20miles I imagine? It's slow work, with odd canters when going is suitable and we have enough light. Otherwise a fair amount of road work and hill work (live near pennines in uk, so plenty of hills!!!!!). The year before she was out 24/7 in a large herd but she was shod and when shoes came off she had lami. I inherited her shod and at that yard. We have tried stabling in the day (have a field shelter and hardcore outside) to no avail and muzzling - but her skin is so delicate we end up with rubs.
Her udders also swell up just as you describe. She becomes wheezy around march de to tree pollen and after about two weeks of stabling 24/7 though that was easily corrected by feeding hay from floor.
Would sugary grass set off a flare up of epsm? It's been march, august and then once the hard frosts/bordering on snow set in. I'm not keen to put her on oil due to weight but I know linseed meal would benefit her coat due to the omegas in it too?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 1:14 pm:
I think you have to separate her different problems and treat each of them. I don't know that she is either IR or Cushings or EPM. They are all different conditions with different causes and treatments/diets. If she were my pony, I would start with treating the hives/allergic reaction, keeping her as healthy as possible in the meantime. If you are concerned about IR or Cushings, read the articles on those conditions and if she seems to "fit the bill" get her tested following the protocols suggested. Usually, Cushings and IR horses are horses that don't get much exercise.Your girl sounds like she's getting quite a bit of good work.
There are some excellent articles about pastures and grasses, times of year you need to be careful about turnout, etc. on this site and others. www.Safegrass.com and www.thehorse.com are too other good sites for information on feeding. New grass is rather dangerous and when temps very tremendously also, due to high sugar content in the grass. It's worth doing some reading if you aren't up on pasture feeding.
Is chaff a straw hay (oat) or is it a grass? We don't use that term much over here except in my area of the country to refer to the loose hay that is left when you pick up a bale. Is it very clean, or have dust (from dirt) or mold dust?
Also, is she getting Vit.E and C in her supplements? I'm unfamiliar with the ones you are using. I was just doing some reading related to humans on the immune system and lack of Vit.E and D. So, it might pay to do a little research along that line also or to just feed a good source of vitamins.
While oil is wonderful for their coats, it does add weight. A little linseed meal makes a big difference with coats; we used to feed 1/2 cup a day to our show horses; a pony would take about half that I'd guess.
We had a foal that badly injured a front leg. In order to keep the flies off, and to keep him from chewing on the sutures, I did something similar to your pajamas. I used a pair of boys jeans and used suspenders made of old pantyhose. What a pair your pony and he would have made! 
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Member:
paladin
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 1:39 pm:
Unknown worming background (rescue), highly allergic, non-seasonal (or not completely seasonal) rash around head, neck, ventral surface, mane and tail itching...have they ruled out onchocerciasis as one of the possibilities?
Nice pants!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 1:56 pm:
Which antihistamines? (I may have missed it) We have a quarter horse with similar, but not nearly as severe, problems. Will have to dig in my pictures, but he actually has a similar get up!!! I have found that once he starts reacting, stopping it is nearly impossible. We are pretty close to Texas A&M, and the vets there really helped us get it under control.
By the way - your "accent" is wonderful
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 2:23 pm:
You might want to see if can get someone to do the testing that tells you if she is deficient in anything. Not sure if you have that, and I am not real familiar with it myself but I think a good starting point would be to check if she is not getting enough of some vitamin or mineral, or too much and has an imbalance. Getting her system working at peak will help deal with the troubles she is having.
I am not against using whatever drugs are available but letting her heal from the inside out is ideal in my opinion.
Good luck...cute little pony!
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New Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 3:22 pm:
Going from first post after my last reply...
Onchocerciasi - had never heard of it, have read up a bit - can we get it in the UK?
Antihistamines - Vets (AFAIK) don't prescribe antihistamines - we used human tablets at 8 tablets a day, more if a bad day - it was cetrizinehyDrOlchloride based if remember the name right - a typical one a day type tablet for humans over the counter. Expensive too at nearly a box a day - and a pain to buy because of the limits around overdosing
I think the trick for us is stopping it before it starts too - as this recent event shows - once she has a reaction somewhere - all of her reacts. Would love to see photos of your get up - she will be having black pants this year so people don't laugh at us - riding is the best part as she has a partial suit for riding in - and people shout stuff like bat horse and ninja horse at us hehe. Im not sure how you read an accent in written stuff...?! Sometimes spelling is abysmal - for which I apologise - on a phone sometimes and it loves predicting what Im saying... often wrongly!
Though I type as I think, which is why it is so garbled and confusing! Also why I listed all the problems - I have no idea what might or might not be significant so I thought if I DrOpped it all in the pan, something might come together *crossing fingers desperatley*!!
Vit&Min supplement contains RDA of Vit D&E ( as well as sources - some RDA, some not - Provitamin A, Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B9, B12, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, Calcium, Chlorine, Potassium, Nitrogen, Sodium, Phosphorous, Sulphur, Cobalt, Copper, Iron, Iodine, Magnesium, Manganese, Selenium, Zinc, with a broad spectrum of Amino acids, Essential fatty acids and natural Antioxidants - incase anyone was interested haha).
I have really noticed an improvement in her feet since feeding this. It is primarily made of rosehips, seaweed, MagOx and other herbs - again all naturally sourced sources of vitrs and mins as it makes them more digestable for the horse.
The chaff is chopped hay essentially - what we would consider "not grain based" feed - lowest sugar and starch feed I can find! Its a special order product over here - everyone else seems to love mollasses. I got it because it is the most similar to a roughage diet I can get, I can feed a tiny handful - not even a childs cup size - a bag (20kg) lasts between two for nearly 4months. I could do with more horses, I dont like having a bag open for that long with mould etc!!!!!! What an excuse to have more!
Perhaps I have misunderstood IR, it is where the body either doesn't produce insulin, or it doesn't react to it - so sugars aren't digested properly so end up with the fatty look? She is fairly fit (or was...) and isn't struggling with the work load but the weight just doesn't shift.
She was turned out for 8weeks on scrub land (hard to come by here, but ideal for my two!) and the change was massive - same as us though, I worry it was going to set off the body to storing stuff too much in "emergency being starved" mode.
 
She was in less workload than now, this is the most recent prior to flare up.
I too prefer the "natural" style of horse care - hence the forage based diet, low sugar (NO treats bar these smartie sized apple treats for ground work which she has probably 15 of a week in total!) diet... we are barefoot and live out 24/7 unless I chose to stable them in the field shelter - otherwise they have 24hr access to it as they please and its bedded down etc.
If you think she's sweet looking... then my mini had best not make an appearance or he might go missing! hehe... That said he makes himself missing (read escape!) enough as it is!
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Member:
paladin
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 3:49 pm:
Here's a link to Dr. O's information paper
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5493.html
And here's a link to the Merck veterinary manual which I include because it has a photo of a typical face rash you may be interested in seeing.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/71804.htm
I suppose your vets would've thought to check if it were a possibility...
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 4:03 pm:
We give hyDrOxyzine pamoate to Tuff, and we have to load the dose. It's available only by prescription, but it's also an old human drug. We have found the cheapest source is to have our vet call it in to the local pharmacy with an "open prescription", meaning we buy a full bottle at a time. You can also get it from most livestock places like Valley Vet, but it's more expensive.
Tuff is a halter horse, and at full fitted weight almost 1600 lbs. We have to load the dose, so we work up to 11 twice a day usually. Yes - 22 capsules a day, but I just dump them in his feed and he doesn't care. If he is showing no symptoms, we back off the dose to prevent a loss of efficacy, and stop all together when the flies go away. He is deathly allergic to common stable flies and timothy hay. What a combo for a horse! -
There is also a supplement called Glanzen that the dermatologist recommended from Texas A&M. It worked WONDERS, too. I'm not much on "trendy" or holistic medicine/supplements unless there is data to back it up, and I have to say the vet was right on the mark. This is the website: https://www.horsetech.com/.
Are the bumps only on the exposed spots where a blanket won't cover? Would that imply it is contact dermatitis as opposed to a food allergy or deficiency? Tuff will start the reaction where the flies can bite, and if unchecked, they will spread over his whole body. Is that what happens to your pony?
About the accent - I'm in east Texas, and I could tell by your very lovely vocabulary that you must be from England maybe? It seems ya'll sound so much more charming that we do!
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 4:27 pm:
That picture is really interesting Paladin - it is EXACTLY what happens on her face. She doesn't seem to get hives on her face in the same way as everywhere else.
The exposed parts of her (legs/tummy/udders after trashed rugs last year) come up in hives, which rupture - this happens all over body if not rugged - so shows the difference when rugged/unrugged. She itches all over. Her neck is like currugated cardboard, ridges and hot and swollen - the same as her tail - but no hives as covered up.
...that face is really interesting - I cant get the image out my head. It is very similar to a horse allergic to the metal of the bit which again produces interesting images - though this is more likely. Is it a seasonal thing?
Michelle - yes, highly indicative of a contact dermatitis.
We have gone through three different vets, and ended up back at number one.
Number one says keep her stabled due to trees...keep her out because of dust/mould. The patterns don't fit for tree pollen, and she is wheezy when ridden when tree pollens are high in spring. They have seen her the most, hence were called back in emergency as I felt they would be best placed to make a "should I pts" decision for us if required.
Number two says she has mites and pin worms (that hibernate, and harvest mites that dont like to crawl under rugs...) and wants to give her dectomax.
Number three was great but didn't offer much help other that suggesting a marble to at least take that issue off our hands in the summer. He was very good, but in the "emergency" I went to vet who has seen her most, and was invloved with insurance for previous claim on allergies for testing/creams etc.
It has become borderline obsessive, I have read goodness knows how much - and as such I kind of end up having a one way conversation (As Im sure you can imagine by my posting!!!!) with vet looking totally bemused by me talking about stuff.
Vet is now suggesting auto immune disease - though having read up on it, I don' think it fits "us" enough? But apparently a sweet itch horse wouldnt self harm as much as she does?
That said, despite allergy testing saying otherwise I think it fits into our "no see um" season... and would be supported by our sudden warm weather (10oC having had best part of four weeks of 6" snow) some flies have appeared... I stamped one on her hoof the other day LOL.
Its my first ever horse, and boy has it been a learning curve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 4:38 pm:
I feel your pain! Hope you are able find something that will help ease her symptoms, even if they never find the cause.
As for the chewing - Tuff chewed the front of his hocks horribly and now has pretty nasty scars on them, as well as his chest where he rubbed so hard he tore the muscle. The hair never grew back. (covering those was soo fun for show season!!) But since starting the hyDrOxyzine 2 years ago, we haven't ever had an episode get out of hand again. Hives came up only once when I pulled his blankets overnight to wash them. No more scurf, not more odor, no more misery for him.
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Member:
paladin
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 5:24 pm:
This site is a great help to identify these types of things...
If you haven't read through these information papers, read several in this category:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/21639.html
Oncho is NOT seasonal which helps to distinguish it from sweet itch, but I have read one study that shows an increase in the microfilarae during gnat season. Also, I think a horse that is sensitive to one thing often has many sensitivities and so it's probably likely that a horse suffering from onchocerca may show an increase in symptoms during "allergy season" as you describe.
It looks to me as if your horse may have many allergies (possibly oncho is one) and a few other issues. She looks like a one in a million, wonderful pony and is so lucky to have you.
What specifically has been your worming program since you've had her and does she have any eye issues? Does she get any worse after worming?
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2011 - 8:19 pm:
Did I miss something in the posts...or have steroids not been given yet?
As Sara said, once the histamines are activated it is hard to get them under control. So wouldn't steroids be prescribed?
I had good success this past year by giving antihistamines before the "bug" season as my mare is very allergic to bug bites--swells up with hives and looks like bubble wrap used in packing boxes. She was miserable and itchy. Where I live it is "buggy" April to November, so I started Tri-Hist granule antihistamines 2x a day in late March and stopped after several hard freezes in the middle of November. She had very few hives this year. The articles on this site state that antihistamines work about 50% of the time. It worked for my mare.
Your dear pony has more going on than my mare had. I hope you are able to sort it all out soon.
I would definitely get rid of the clover, keep the weight down, avoid all sugary treats and feed, and make sure the worming program is working. Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with exercise. Your mare is very lucky she found a home with you.
I also love the protective suit. Very clever of you.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 1:38 am:
I'm going to go and look for clover today (joys of poo picking-not!),.. I realised last night that it is creeping buttercup that is near field shelter.
Over here steroids aren't prescribed for potential laminitics due to the risks - having been reading the alternate day therapy I wonder if this could be an option?
She seemed to have found some bounce again last night I'm so pleased - though it did take ten minutes to catch the monkey! She was much less lame, her legs didn't look as heavy. Its been so horrible seeing her like this, winters are fun and she is naughty, summers she is miseable and absorbed in her own world.
Ridden work she really enjoys - she lacks confidence on her own still but has improved a lot. She's very honest - when there is a problem I know about it - bit equally she won't play up if there isn't. People say I shouldn't rode her, but she's not a Childs pony to handle. She has been teaching some to ride but she is just too stubborn sometimes. So her carrying me plus all tack/warm clothes/fluro hear comes to best part of ten stone (140lbs!!) winter... But I have no worries - if she was unhappy she would wipe me on floor no issues!!!!!!!!
I will ask my vet about prescribing hyDrOxy pomeate Michelle when he next phones. Probably not til next week. He was going to talk with vet who saw her last summer.
Her weight in lbs is 661 according to weigh tape. I can feel her ribs oddly enough, they are covered by easily findable - its her pockets on her withers that expand
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 8:12 am:
https://www.totallyvets.co.nz/other-poisonous-plants.html
PFurball, creeping buttercup is a toxic plant for horses although I don't think it causes photo sensitivity. I wouldn't think that your pony would be tempted to eat it unless there is no other forage. Clover puts the weight on my horses FAST and makes two of my three photo sensitive and one gets the 'slobbers' very bad. Alfalfa causes the same reactions. I don't know if clover is your problem, but it can't hurt to get rid of it.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 8:40 am:
Have never seen her eat them - when in bloom she is off the grass and in winter sufficient grazing to keep her busy (not that she is grazing at the moment  - sort of miss her pigging out!)
She is prone to sunburn on the end of her muzzles, and just above the coronet band on one foot - but very much doubt she is photosensitive - just lacks hair coverage on both and is pink skinned in those areas.
I love the safegrass website - I found that last summer - got some great stuff to read about on there :D
If I could have a lovely, high up piece of moorland I think we would be in heaven for weight and lack of flies/trees etc!!! :D
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 9:19 am:
The easy thing at this point would be the process of elimination. Try de-worming with ivermectin, maybe 2 times with in a couple weeks, make sure the dose is appropriate or slightly high. Remove all grazing, I would try soaking her hay if you can, and see where you stand after a couple weeks and go from there. I would remove supplements for the trial period too. Just soaked hay, she may get cranky, but they do get over it and you will have eliminated a few things in the process.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 9:29 am:
Welcome pfb,
The skin symptoms, elevated serum amyloid along with the polyclonal gammopathy would be consistent with inflammatory conditions of the skin and would include both amyloidosis and autoimmune disorders though it does not rule out generalized allergies and (though less likely) inflammatory reactions to either background or pathogenic microorganisms.
Skin biopsy that incorporates preservation and staining techniques looking for autoimmune diseases is going to be your next best step. For more on diagnosing and treating some of these disorders see:
1) HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Autoimmune Skin Disorders: Bullous and Pemphigus.
2) HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Bumps / Nodules / Warts / Tumors » Cutaneous Amyloidosis
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 10:17 am:
Dr.O. I had to google amyloidosis
Can this be caused by IR? From googling it it seems quite possible?
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 12:52 pm:
The buttercups where we live are poisonous. I don't know if the ones in UK are the same or not. I would either check them out with someone who would know, or get rid of them.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 12:54 pm:
All Ranunculus species are poisonous when eaten fresh by cattle, horses, and other livestock, but their acrid taste and the blistering of the mouth caused by their poison means they are usually left uneaten. Poisoning can occur where buttercups are abundant in overgrazed fields where little other edible plant growth is left, and the animals eat them out of desperation. Symptoms include bloody diarrhea, excessive salivation, colic, and severe blistering of the mucous membranes and gastrointestinal tract. When Ranunculus plants are handled, naturally occurring ranunculin is broken down to form protoanemonin, which is known to cause contact dermatitis in humans and care should therefore be exercised in excessive handling of the plants.[2] The toxins are degraded by drying, so hay containing dried buttercups is safe.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 1:13 pm:
You can't "get rid" of creeping buttercups - they form a mat like setup where there is little grass growing - although we have it chain harrowed once yearly, its actually supposed to be made by doing that as each split of a root will turn into multiple off shots thus multiplying plant - where we live there are buttercups everywhere - out of the four fields where we are, ours has the littlest amount of buttercups in. They aren't ideal for horses, as they have links with photosensitivity - but otherwise they are largely ignored as they are so common.
They fit the description of PF, though when unrugged there is no pattern to it on her body - its whole body. My only query is, can PF be seasonal? This is (apart from this incident) very strictly May-November time - her rugs are always off at fireworks night. She might have one, or two little hives on tail after unrugging, but then it stops altogether.
Last summer there were no sores on her face or legs, though she itched both an awful lot.
The same with ruling out the cause - she has had the "same" diet for best part of six months - I took her off a feed with garlic, mollasses and all sorts in (supposedly hoof friendly...) to this simpler feed - she hasn't moved fields, nor companions changed. Companion has no symptoms. She has been wormed regularily for two years - one year with the equimax range and the other year with the eraquell range. She was last wormed in Novmeber, and had her annual vaccs in Sept.
The vet said he couldnt sample this as we have no idea where it orginated from - no way of knowing if this was something she ate/external cause etc. so chances are we will have to wait until May-June to sample her with a biopsy?
Metacam doesn't seem to be helping - mobility much better yday/today but tail hot and oozing, chest is like a tree oozing sap its gross and she now has two lines of "disrupted hair" on bum from her itching and a nice tuft of mane missing.
Please can we have some more snow - all this would go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 1:34 pm:
HMMMM It does sound like biting midges/gnats, those things are horrible, I itch something horrible if one bites me.Flash will itch her mane and tail off when they are out if I don't put swat or Vaseline on her mane, tail, and midline and ears. They attack everywhere. Around here anyway they go away when it gets good and warm, around July. They seem to like the coolish warm weather. Does she have crusty oozy scabs in her ears ? That's always my hint it is the midges/gnats.
I would gladly send some snow
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 1:46 pm:
No, not a problem in the ears - behind them though is a nightmare and under forelock.
Would be interested in anyones opinions on supporting the immune system - a lot of people say she needs ecchinacea etc, as its an immunity problem... but isnt the problem her immuse system is over responsive? Would eccinacea actually make it worse as it would stimulate immune system first?
I dont have a video of her head shaking, but she appears to be a "head shaker" though interestingly doesn't do it under saddle! A fly mask with ears resolves headshaking
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 2:38 pm:
PFB, chemicals will kill creeping buttercup.
https://www.crocus.co.uk/pestsanddiseases/weeds/_/articleid.2/
Trimec which contains 2-4-D along with other chemicals kills clover, dandelions. 2-4-D and Trimec will not kill grass.
If you are against using chemicals, deep harrowing/plowing will remove it. If the area isn't too large dig them up by hand.
Animals shouldn't graze after applying chemicals. Read directions from manufacturer.
I'm mystified why vets in your area will not prescribe an antihistamine in the spring before the sun/bugs/plants--whatever--is triggering these episodes. I don't understand why one wouldn't at least try it.
I'm also mystified why vets won't 'sample' the areas. By 'sample' are you referring to skin biopsy as Dr. O suggested you do?
My mare also was a headshaker. She does not do this if she is on antihistamines and using fly mask. She only would headshake during "bug" season. She doesn't do it during the cold months when she is not taking the antihistamines--there are no bugs.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 2:58 pm:
Yes sample as in biopsy - it has to be taken from the site of the problem... Now that site is between front legs, extending back under the tummy, up her neck and round shoulders - so they can't sample where it came from as it is all fluid...
Though we discussed a biopsy last summer, and was told that there was no point as all it would tell us was that she had inflammation of the skin.
I do think there is a definite link with some kind of fly - midges, mozzies, horseflies - dont know. We suffer worst with horse flies, though they seem to be short lived, followed by mozzies - midges are the least of our problems.
Little one wont even be swishing his tail about the flies, and she will be beside herself.
Antihistamines "aren't effective in horses".
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 3:11 pm:
I do believe my mare was lucky; she was helped tremendously by the antihistamine Tri Hist when it was given BEFORE she had allergic reactions to bug bites. My vet said the antihistamine 'probably wouldn't help' as its efficacy is poor in horses--just like Dr. O's articles state. However, it worked for her. She was a completely different horse last 'bug season'.
I must have a poor understanding of biopsy. I thought it could be taken when the condition was present.
I have three horses. The other two will stand quietly and the mare will be throwing her head, stamping her feet, and swishing her tail to rid herself of whatever insect is near. She will try to outrun them. The other two remain calm; they have no reactions to the same insects. Maddening!
Good luck.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 3:24 pm:
Thanks
Yes I know the feeling - I don't mind that so much, its when she stands around depressed and sad looking it breaks my heart! Such a softy!!!!!!!
Yes can be taken when condition is present, but vets said they have to sample the site of reaction - which because the reaction is so large they can't identify where the original point of contact was.
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 4:45 pm:
You asked for opinions about supporting the immune system. In my experience....(Doctor's, I'm told say "In my experience when they have seen one relevant case. When they have seen two relevant cases they are more apt to say "In case after case....") So, to correct myself, "in case after case" we have had very good results using an immune supporting supplement. We have used two different products -- and I don't know if either would be available in Great Britain, but they both contained colostrum, Beta Glucan, probiotics, as well as other ingredients.
Initially my concern, like yours, was that each horse's immune system already seemed over stimulated. Surely we wouldn't want to "boost" it more. But, in fact, it seems to be more a question of balancing it, and strengthening it, and it ends up less reactive.
In the first case my mare was over sensitive to some night-biting insect. She would break out in hives, which then resolved into pustules... It was nothing like what you are struggling with, but, nevertheless was persistent and severe. We used antihistamines and fly sheets, and eventually I tried an immune supportive supplement. Don't know if the specific one I've used is available over there, but you could look at the web site: https://www.smoothrunequine.com. It took a several months, but it really did resolve the issue. That was several years ago. I've had to put her back on it one more time for about 4 months, but other than that, she's quite normal. She gets bug bites, but no secondary reaction.
The second horse came into our barn with very severe allergies. He had been tested, and the list was very long. His tail had fallen out; he had very little hair and big crusty areas; his legs would swell up like stove pipes in the stall..........We have been able to protect him from most of his allergens, but not all. We put him on a similar product -- also with Colostrum, Beta Glucan, probiotics, etc. -- and, now, about 3 months later, he looks great. Who is to say that the supplement helped? Maybe we just did a great job protecting him? But between the 2 horses, it seems to me that, if the budget allows (they are EXPENSIVE!) it is very worth it to give this kind of supplement a try.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 4:56 pm:
This is the one I have been recommended:
https://www.globalherbs.co.uk/equine/immuplus.html
I am so frightened of changing anything, but it needs to be done as what we currently have isnt working enough. If things get worse at least I know what we were doing to revert too if necessary.
She will run a course of Restore initially once metacam has finished to help "clear out" - much like probiotics I think, helping the gut to absorb better.
So her multi vit will be upped to GlobalVite (same company as above, all naturally sourced).
And they do a fantastic product called Skratch (FlyFree also FAB)... The problem is pallatability - It smells pungently like a herb shop/curry spices. I had difficulty trying to get it down last year, but am determined this year to try and get it down - starting it beginning of feb so have three months to build up to required doseage!
And then lastly, their vet suggested I put her on the immuplus also, but was concerned about overloading the immune system.
This is such a costly business! I just wish I could find out more about the root cause of it all
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 5:12 pm:
Costly?! That is what horses do best, spend your money!
I don't understand why a culture of the serum or biopsy of scab tissue would have to be done at the "point of impact." Has the vet explained this? If this is a body wide reaction, which it appears to be, the fluids and scabs would all be the same. It isn't like there's a little sap from poison ivy on one spot of her skin. That said, imo a biopsy won't do much good if it's systemic reaction. At least that has been my experience.
I've not had luck with antihistimines, either. The only thing that helped both my stallion and in another case I know of, a friend's horse (in another state) was steriod shots. I have heard there is a concern regarding laminitis but don't know enough to comment on it. Maybe Dr.O had addressed this in one of his articles? I would think it would depend on what caused the laminitis. Not all laminitis is related to IR or Cushings.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 5:34 pm:
Her lami has only every been metabollically related... I have been busy sat on my hands trying to push thought of lami out my head - she has been so so lame that I was worried we would have a stress/lack of movement issue... but hopefully hopefully we might be saved from that!
Her feet, mane and tail are the most prized parts of her!!!!!!!!!
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 22, 2011 - 11:20 pm:
I looked at the Global Herbs website, but it does not seem to list ingredients of any of their products, so I can't compare their Immuplus product with the ones I've used. I'm not sure I would want to use a product without knowing what was in it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 1:01 pm:
Pfb, it is not true that the biopsy needs to be taken from the original lesion. Secondary changes (from scratching, secondary infection, etc) often make it the least desirable spot as they may disguise the original cause. Instead it is best to look for new areas that exhibit primary lesions that have not been all scrapped up yet. Even better are samples from both areas.
I would like to back up here. When I first read your profile before my first response I got it in my head you were from New Zealand and that your seasons are reversed. On rereading your post I realize you are in Great Britain. Though your allergy testing indicated midges were not the cause, these tests are very unreliable and I would not rule it out until you have done everything possible to prevent exposure for more see the article HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Culicoides Hypersensitivity: Sweet & Queensland Itch. Though a difficult problem to deal with better to contemplate than my earlier suggestions and not ruled out by the blood work.
As to the causes of Amyloidosis Diane, this is a multifactorial disease that appears to have several but ill defined causes. Are article on the disease lists some of those proposed.
DrO
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Member:
paladin
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 2:03 pm:
And a sweet itch type rash in the middle of winter is what made me wonder if neck threadworms were a possibility. (Are there any midges in the UK in the middle of winter?).
Dr. O., is there a conclusive test for onchocerciasis? How might popularfurball definitively rule this out?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 2:25 pm:
Here's a good one I get bit by those things in the dead of the midwestern winter(especially if we have a "warm" winter day they come out in Feb around here and it is still quite cold....whenever I handle hay... they must winter in the hay stack or something.
Benydryl spray is the ONLY thing that give me relief from those bite... wonder if that could be used on horses.... it does burn at first when I spray it...probably because of the open scratch wounds..benydryl creme perhaps would help the itchies or dermavet? and a good de-worming.?
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 23, 2011 - 4:25 pm:
Not usually no - we had no issues at all last winter. However we have had a "bad" winter for here - lots of sudden snow, very early in the winter for us - normally get snow feb march time. And having had 4 weeks of snow, then several weeks of freezing weather we are suddenly having a spell of 10C+ with temps min of 6C at night! I caught a fly, and there was blood on the inside of her near fore elbow about two weeks ago - but I couldnt find any lesion. Decided stupidly she had found an orange plant to walk in to!
I'm glad you have said that about the allergy testing... Im getting the impression that "its gospel" to some extent... Coming from a physiotherapy background, I value the importance of scientific tests, but think that history/patterns constitutes far more.
I am 100% certain this is caused by some flying creature. What I do wonder though is there some underlying condition/problem that makes her suffer so severely? We are so hopelessly exposed, that short of making her live on a seaside cliff we would struggle to be better much better placed.
She was "better" at the last yard we were on - but she self harmed so regularily on the barbed wire, and ragwort wasnt managed and there was no "starvation paddock" so she came down with lami - couldnt stable due to allergies. At least now I have control of the last three things! Last yard was windier, which also supports theory about flies...
Not exposing her to the cause is also my intention - hence the renamed "HazMat suit"!!!!
She is so scurfy all over its gross - tail is hot and swollen, chest crusty and mane and legs all scurfy too. Metacam seems to not be doing much, if anything. The swelling was going down before that was started. Though she suddenly smells of a kind of stale cat pee smell.... Its foul!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 8:02 am:
Pfb, I am afraid Culicoides Hypersensitivity needs no other excuse to be this bad. With time and continued exposure horses afflicted by this allergy gets as bad as you describe and your images show and will worsen in the future without prevention of further exposure.
Paladin the skin disease caused by Onchocerciasis is generally treated by avermectin class of dewormers. For more diagnosis and treatment see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Ventral Midline (Belly) Dermatitis and Onchocerciasis.
DrO
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Member:
paladin
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 8:35 am:
Now I am confused. I thought onchocerciasis was the skin disease caused by hypersensitivity to the microfilaria of onchocerca cervicalis which is also transmitted by culicoides but lives for up to 10 years in a horse that was not wormed adequately with ivermectin to prevent adults from becoming established.
I'm confused in that I did not think there would be enough, if any, culicoides active during a harsh UK winter to create this type of off-season reaction.
Please disregard as I will review all of the site's papers that touch upon this subject and start another thread.
Pfb, good luck with your pony. Please keep us posted. I too, have a very allergic horse which I am 99% sure is very hypersensitive to culicoides and it's about the only thing he tests negative to in blood allergy tests.
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Member:
lucyc1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 9:31 am:
At the same time that you are focusing on preventing exposure and on medications that reduce inflammatory allergic reactions, I really suggest adding a high quality supplement that will help your sweet pony's hypersensitive, over-excited, and super-stressed immune system. Global Herbs might be willing to discuss with you what the active ingredients of their product are. The two products we have used with extraordinary success have been based on colostrum, and included Beta-Glucan. There are many, many natural substances that support a strong immune system. These are the two that I would want to find in any product I considered using. Other than expense, I do not know of any reason not to at least try some method of nourishing and supporting your pony's immune system, which is almost certainly exhausted, depleted, and out of balance from a near constant state of hyper-activity.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2011 - 2:33 pm:
Expense isn't an issue - I will do whatever I can for her. She is my world, I fell apart when I thought it was game over last week.
Yes, have discussed at lengths with global herbs the products - a friend has a sweet itch pony who uses fly free and was only rugged in august last year because of having it.
She has been on a multivit since last summer (when I started to understand the importance!)... The immuplus one will help build and balance her immune system... The scratch helps to soothe irritated skin as well as reduce reaction and smells nasty to keep flies away.
She will first run a liver tonic course to help flush out toxins etc and put her back in balance as she still isnt right.
Not exposing her is incredibly hard - that's the path I took last year and learnt to late that it's not enough to manage it sufficiently. She will be rugged 24/7 as usual, and live out as she self harms less when out.
Dr O will something like bute help at all? Are there drugs I could be prescribed for a flare up? Often due to work/vets schedule it can be hard to get vet out straight away if it gets worse - last year I had a heap of bute prescribed- would there be anything more appropriate to keep at home to administer if this happens...? Metacam doesn't seem to be helping massively... But hard to know as I don't know how she would have been without!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 2:54 pm:
In general NSAID's will not help with pruritic reactions. The article on Culicoides Hypersensitivity describes in detail your treatment options for this condition. I must say there is no good scientific evidence that there are commercial herbal products that will ameliorate your ponies symptoms.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 25, 2011 - 3:40 pm:
The vet said that today, as I said the metacam wasn't making a (significant) difference (thought I dont know how fast she would have improved without).
Swelling has mostly gone, but still itchy - mostly tail.
Vet's over here really don't seem to use steroids - because of the risks with laminitis.
He wants me to use "Cavalesse" and the immunotherapy injections which are "Gold standard" - though not sure what has changed - there was concerns about reactions being worsened/anaphylaxis type shock?? but suddenly concern isn't there.
He also wants her stabled dusk and dawn - though I find she is actually worse stabled - she just itches non stop.
So we shall see - I'm speaking to the vet at Global Herbs tomorrow about combining with the conventional treatment and sending off the insurance forms to see if they will pay for the immunotherapy injections as that will be really expensive.
Thank you for everyones helps - must get back to sewing up last years rugs... What fun!
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 2:26 pm:
The swelling has now travelled towards back of tummy. She is struggling to walk, though not lame... Just finding it hard to move if that makes sense?
Her hair is now falling out in big clumps, with skin attached and skin underneath is blistered with yellowy scabs on. She shakes violently (like parkinsons, her hocks bang together!) if I touch it and goes nuts like I have set fire too her
Hopefully (sort of!) we might be going steroids route.
Is there a private message function on here?
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:23 pm:
So sorry to hear that your poor pony is still having such a hard time!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:46 pm:
Just want to add my good wishes. It must be so very hard to see a horse suffering so and not being able to help.
Lilo
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:48 pm:
vets out tomorrow, discussed steroids and anti histamines . Think steroids might be way forward ;) I covered her in flamazine cream tonight where here skin looks like she has been burnt.
Will try and upload new pics tomorrow night but need to resize first.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:52 pm:
Well, I sure hope your pony is able to tolerate some steroid treatment to get her symptoms under control. ANd if she ever clears up...I hope your vet will allow you to try an antihistamine as a preventative measure; it worked wonders for my mare. Sure hope it would work for your pony. It is so hard to watch our horses suffer. Your pony is fortunate that you are not giving up!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 6:58 pm:
Sure hoping you find some answers and hope the steroids improve your pony's condition. Best of luck
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 2:23 pm:
New vet came out, checked her all over.. heart, temp, feet etc etc.
Has prescribe Prednisolone at 250mg a day for ten days. (well 10 x 25mg tablets!). So we shall see.
I am keeping her in stable with a small patch of grass to stretch her legs on as a preventative for getting lami (she is metabolically triggered by grass).
Trimmer is ready, have discussed today with her and happy for her (within reason) to start steroids - she is happy to come out to her if the lami issue crops up and we will get some hoof boots and pads etc sorted if she becomes footy.
So... fingers crossed that this starts to improve - As far as the vet was concerned, she almost may as well have lami - she isn't moving, she isnt eating as much as usual, is DrOpping weight quickly, is listless and depressed... so here we go!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 2:37 pm:
Wonderful news PFB! I certainly hope your pony finds relief with the Prednisolone. Poor thing must be miserable with her symptoms. She's lucky to have you in her corner. Best of luck.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 3:20 pm:
As a preventative measure, you might want to keep her off any high sugar/high carb feeds while she is on the Prednisolone. Straight grass hay is what I would feed here; not sure about over there.
Good luck with her.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 4:37 pm:
Definitley Sara!!!!!!!!!!
She is (as the vet stressed!) a pony prone to laminitis (which I knew) - overweight native with possible metabolic issues.
As a preventative I am going to stable the next few days until I get fencing sorted, and then they will have a "run" set up (20m x 10m ish) and they can go out on that when she is ok to do so, otherwise on hay with shelter and hardstanding
Vet said that I have two options - watch her as she is (miserable, hardly able to walk, not grazing, lethargic, no sparkle and DrOpping weight quickly/wasting) or run the risks of steroids.
Bearing in mind we are nearly three weeks on from when this actually started, and although she had massivley improved last week, she has come crashing back down I decided it needed reining in. If she gets lami, I know I have caused it by trying to sort this out - at this rate its not going by itself and I cant see her in this much pain and sadness for much more.
So, having spoken to trimmer and vet I feel more "prepared". I have measured her feet incase we need to put hoof boots on, and planned our strategy. I will be lunging/walking out in hand as much as possible (at least 3-4 times a week) to try and help her keep mobile seeing as her freedom is restricted.
Neighbours are moving onto the rest of the field to graze it down for us so little one can go out with them if he starts to boil over (he is hyperactive hehe) and to give her some peace and quiet. Hopefully the extra (calm!) company will cheer her up too - she has ahem, a soft spot for the haflinger next door!!!!!
Some pics of how we were on Saturday - she has since lost more hair - and please excuse our clipping - I was so pleased we got as far as we did - taken us two years to get to this point!!!!! The noise used to send her bananas! So the back was left as it was too tickly!!!
Her hair loss on Sat
Sad pony - she is standing like this all day, most of the time up against a wall/in a corner somewhere
How our hair is falling out...yeuch!
Our sore sore skin
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 4:57 pm:
Poor Baby! Hope the meds do the trick and quick.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 2:15 pm:
Pfb,
The lesions you show above strongly suggest a dermatophilus infection (a much easier to treat problem that allergies or autoimmune disorders).
For more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Skin Diseases, Wounds, and Swellings » Hair and Coat Problems / Itching / Irritated Skin » Rain Rot and Rain Scald: Dermatophilus.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 5:59 pm:
Dr O - Yes the hair looks very similar - though she is not scabby where the hair is coming out? It is in a band on underneath of tummy - not where original swelling was etc. She is scabby elsewhere though (mane/tail/chest).
It is dry under where the hair was, though can have a bit of fried yellow on it (skin almost looks burnt?)
Also, how could she have contracted it? No new horses in surrounding fields, and only her and littles live in their field. She hacks out but doesnt compete etc. She has never had mud fever, and usually lives out rugless in winter but seems to be feeling the cold this year.
I think steroids will have me on paranoia alert! I got up there tonight having left her this morning "happy". Her feet were so so hot - never felt them so hot, but she was also hot on her swelling (underside of neck/chest/abdomen). She refused to leave stable, but eventually coaxed her out (I needed to muck out!)and then lunged her to help her get moving. She eased up a lot and was moving nicely by the end. I let them both out for an hour whilst I moved the fencing etc and she wandered off and seemed happy enough - then I couldnt catch her - some of her "sparkle" seemed to reappear hehe.
There were no pulses in her feet, just really really hot - she had been in all night and day - have taken all rugs off (she had a fleece on with a no fill rain sheet over the top due to the shivvering) and left her in naked. Will probably lunge morning and night for 5-10minutes (mostly walk- no canter).
so we shall see what tomorrow holds!
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 4:03 pm:
Feet were mildly warm this morning, still no pulses. They went out for half an hour while I mucked out and stuff - she wouldn't be caught!! She was grazing too She was good this evening too - and lunging nicely for five minutes morning and night to help keep her mobile.
I have taken all rugs off as she was so hot yesterday - and now she is biting herself (quite viciously) and is obviously cross at the swelling! YEt more hair has fallen off - will get some pics tomorrow hopefully. Though she enjoyed me brushing her and let me doa ll her tummy which is a massive improvement.
Dr O... I was busy reading articles - Pigeon fever... I googled it and was horrified at the photos... identical to this. Would routine bloods show anything? She has "midline dermatitis" and the swelling started as per first photo between front legs.
Eerie!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 8:02 am:
Pbf: those are the scabs in your photo, they just have hair embedded, a hallmark sign of dermatophilus.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 3:49 am:
Thanks Dr O.
There are no raised lumps under this hair, and I am not scrubbing or pulling it off - it's literally falling out - it blows off when wind blows!!
The skin underneath has no lesions on as I would expect of mud fever. The skin does not look damaged as such, just scaly but I have never seen healthy horse skin with no hair to compare!
It is localised to back end of underside of tummy where it's swollen.
She is scabby at original site of swelling betteen front legs. But they are yellow/brown and very sticky. No hair loss though.
Vet said hair follicles are damaged by extreme pressure of swelling.
Perhaps I would be better making a separate thread for the current problem as this is not similar to our sweet itch other than she is itchy because of it?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 11:28 pm:
No I would keep it all here as the above history helpful.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2011 - 6:04 pm:
So we DrOpped steroid dose by half to 175mg a day, she stayed on that for five days (having been at 240mg for 7dayz and remarkably improved). She then went down hill again, becoming less willing to move, heat between front legs and the swelling started to reform.
Dose was put back up to 250mg a week ago and she has picked up again. Original site still hot but aside from a bit squishy it has all gone.
Hair loss still a problem, most of tummy underside has been shed, as has inner thighs, around girl bits, up her chest and now her legs are slowly balding. The hair is growing back through, skin is healthy underneath. She cant have rugs on as they are making this worse.
Vet pleased with her on Monday no pulses or reaction to hoof testers.
I am still concerned over the shaking though - she can't stand with one hind up, she can't balance, twists through trunk and topples over. Trimmer also out in Monday and couldn't rasp back feet as she just can't co ordinate it. She is trimming visibly in front feet all the tine though not dramatically. She is stumbling more and sometimes struggling to get up if she goes down. I also have concerns she is DrOpping feed, but her teeth are due to be done so could be coincidence.
She has lost a fair whack of her weight and looms good for it - easily feel but not see ribs, hip, spine, shoulder though fat pads on withers reuse as always to shift.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2011 - 6:38 am:
What are the current working diagnosis's for the skin problems and the weakness-incoordination.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2011 - 9:59 am:
Skin is allergic reaction - based on bloods and history.
Vet can't explain weakness. Plan is to review weakness when this clears up, but now nearly six weeks on from when it started.
Vet in agreement that she probably an ems pony. Cushings arguable.
I will try and upload pics later.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2011 - 4:41 pm:
Recap and the pictures as promised.
Onset - 12/1/11 - Swelling between front legs, passed off as fatty deposit and ignorant owner
15/1/11 - Swelling was now width of between legs, and 2/3" deep - about two palms of my hands in size (photo in earlier posts). Phoned vet, advised probably a cyst and wait until Monday
17/1/11 - Vet came out, took bloods thought she was in heart failure and it was game over.
18/1/11 - Bloods came back normal - white count arguably high, but within range - only noticeable thing was inflamatory reaction. Prescribed Metacam. Metacam didnt touch the swelling. Advised to sit tight and let it run its course. She was still not eating (grazing), but would eat bits of haynet. She wasnt walking, or lying down and looked miserable.
29/01/11 - Arrived to find her violently shaking (similar to parkinsons) and hair falling off her in clumps with skin attached. Phoned vet in tears, advised she is getting old (mid-late teens), and that hair loss is to be expected due to swelling.
30/1/11 - Phoned another vet, discussed over phone for an hour
31/1/11 - New vet came out - Acreed that steroids was our best chance - I couldnt sit and watch her wasting away in front of me anymore. Started Prednisolone at 250mg a day. She is stabled 23/7 - half an hour out morning and night while I muck out. Weighed hay rest of time (but not soaked).
5/2/11 - DrOpped dose following talks with vet on 4/2 - to 125mg a day. She had massivly picked up - running around, lunging happily, grazing.
11/2/11 - Put dose back to 250mg as she had gone downhill - heat between front legs since dose DrOpped, and the swelling had started to reform again. Hair loss still continueing and she is very itchy.
Now - continuing at 250mg a day until a week tomorrow - vet coming out to review then with intention of DrOpping back to 125mg a day. She has again picked up and is quite perky.
However, she has developed some back end issues - today she got stuck trying to get down - went on knees but couldn't collapse back end under her - tried twice and gave up. She tried again later, got down but couldnt roll over as she was stuck on her side and then got stuck trying to get up again. I can't pick her back feet out now as she can't hold them up long enough without over balancing. Can't encourage her to lean on shelter as she panics about being trapped.
She has lost a lot of weight, though partly due to swelling going down.
30/1/11
18/2/11
Hair loss is still going on. Hair loss under tummy has grown back apart from any new loss. Its taking 3-5days for the bald bits to be covered in fuzz - if not less. Her leg hair is now falling out in patches (looks sort of rigwormy - though not regular shapes - totally irregular - but difficult to notice as rest of hair so long to mask it, but now so much has come off it is visible.
With new hair and new baldness!
Chest
Baldness between legs
Back legs
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Member:
hpyhaulr
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 20, 2011 - 6:00 pm:
so very sorry you both are going through all this. What great courage and perseverance you both have. SHe is so lucky to be your pony.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2011 - 1:58 am:
Ditto Cyndy's post, and hoping for a good outcome.
Big hugs.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 21, 2011 - 6:23 pm:
I would not wait on a exam for the weakness and have that worked up ASAP pfb. Note that if the hair loss is continuing as shown in your post number 27 above you are still struggling with dermatophilus in my opinion.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2011 - 2:18 am:
Discussed with vet tonight - we are doing a neuro exam on Monday. We had agreed to leave it on the basis that most neuro things would be treated with steroids - and she is already on steroids.
What he is baffled by is the neuro stuff getting worse, not better on steroids (although not massivley worse as it had started before the steroids).
None of the weakness makes sense.
It started late summer, after she had lost a lot of weight - she was turned out on a hill of scrub land and got most of her excess weight off. It began with her front legs tremoring on striking with the ground (bilateral). It felt how my knees feel when I feel sick/faint. It was worst on flat ground, and best going down hill, with uphill somewhere inbetween. It was only obvious in walk - but her trot is so fast as her legs are little that it would be hard to feel anyway - no one could see it happening. She was happy to work and not bothered by it at all.
As Im not riding I dont have that comparison - but she was doing it up until we stopped riding.
Now she is struggling to bring back feet forward -for the trimmer and when she is going down. She is shaking if she has a hind foot up - though picking up front feet is fine. Her fronts tremor when her backs are picked up. She twists through her trunk trying to hold her hind up, until she over balances and topples. She will pick her foot straight back up for you, but then fall over again.
I am 98% certain she is in no pain with the weakness - she wouldn't pick her foot back up if it hurt. The same with getting stuck to go down - she wouldn't have tried to go down again.
She is much less itchy now - though she is still itching, and her dust allergies have flared up due to being stabled (we cant use shavings, so she is on minimal straw and fed from the floor to keep it at bay as much as possible).
The hair loss is strange. She is currently unrugged - and has been for three weeks now. I did for a few days put her fly rugs on - but had to take them off as where any seams are all her hair is falling out (this has always been a problem in summer, though never to this extent, just very prone to rubs in summer). The back legs are from the leg straps and udder piece - and the front is where the seam of the tummy guard ends. The same with the new line across tummy - that is the elasticated seam of tummy guard. I did raise the concerns of rain scald with vet - he agreed it is very similar, but unusual patterns for it to take - none at all on back or neck, its all underneath her and corresponding with where the swelling was as it was so extensive. That said, she needs a bath anyway, so she will be washed down with medicated stuff - I am just waiting for a warmer day to do it so she doesnt get cold as I dont want to leave her rugged overnight etc as the hair will be affected! Where the hair has grown back, skin is lovely underneath - occasionally yellow and crusty spots - but hair doesn't come off with them - they much resemble the crusty bits in tail in summer. The skin is also coming off her tail, though tail hair staying in place thankfully.
She is fully sound, and full of the joy of springs (I did sugggest the steroids are actually cocaine or something to the vet - she has never been so happy and full of life! She is well mannered, not grumpy and generally being a superstar!!!!!).
However my insurance runs out mid march, and I love her to bits, but I can't afford £10 a day on steroids indefinitley - and its no life for her being stabled all the time. She loves being out and she loves working.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2011 - 8:16 am:
Hi,
I don't have much I can add that would be of help to you and the lovely pony except a comment on dermatophilus. It appears that is what my horse had this winter on his belly and between his front legs (only). I treated with betadine scrub and spraying on betadine and it cleared up in a few weeks. I managed to pull this off in the middle of winter. I cleaned all my brushes with chlorine and kept one to be used on that area alone. Not diagnosing your little critter, just maybe a helpful case history for you. Good luck.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 4:04 am:
Thanks Lynn - Always value experiences, often the best way to learn when something is a bit out of the norm!
Vet came out on Monday night - he said if the steroids are going to sort out the root cause of the problem the four weeks she has had will have been enough - so we have DrOpped the dose to half (125mg day) for a fortnight and then it will be 125mg alternate days for two weeks.
The swelling has nearly gone, bar a few skin rolls on inside of front legs (though I can't remember if they were there before!!!! Seems so odd to feel her compared to a hard mass or squishy mass!
That said, there is a hive on the inside of the offside leg - where the blood was originally when this all started, but as the swelling had become so extensive the hive wasnt palpable.
Itching has gone, bar the odd "ground hump" but thats just getting rid of the last of the hair between her back legs. Just wishing she would moult now, thought she was and then she stopped! Littles is moulting like billy-o but she seems a bit behind.
Hair has stopped falling out in such large sections - there are odd little bits here on legs and there but nothing like what it was - could almost be moulting rather than the clumps.
Where she was bald, apart from on her chest, the hair has all regrown and skin underneath is healthy and scab free - although she is very scurfy. Full bath hopefully booked for the weekend.
We decided to take bloods again (as both of us are geeky haha) to see what state her gamma and serum amyloid a are like - we know they will be down, but just wanted to be geeky. Would also like to see WBC count, but that will be affected by the steroids so wouldnt give a true reading.
As for the weakness, there is suspected OA in her neck, which if she comes down off the steroids ok, can be x-rayed at a later date. Alternativley, I hypothesised that it could be a temporary thing as a result of swelling - I know in people that the chemicals involved in inflammation aggrevate nerves, so in theory the same could happen in horses?? Vet said it was plausible and would explain why it has got worse since being on the steroids.
It could of course just be unlucky conicidence that the two occurred together - but considering she is moving like a spring chicken at the moment, we would probably expect the OA to improve with steroids.
Though it could have been going on longer - she is usually a bugger for having her feet picked up so I never used to do them daily, obviously as stabled 24/7 Im picking out daily and spraying to prevent thrush so the problem may just have been exposed.
The testing she was pretty good in, still stumbling a bit ocassionally - I think the most significant thing was the complete lack of response on the first round of "pen pokes" on the side of her neck, or the total over reaction for the same thing on the opposite side - having never seem a normal reaction I dont know which way round it was. She had good tail strength, and knew she was being pulled sideways by it when walking... she was totally adverse to walking with her head up high... circles and serpentines fine. Massivly resistant to left flexion of neck, but has always been stiff to the left - ridden and ground. And its her near side hind that is the worst to pick up...hence I think the OA is very pllausible?
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 6:21 am:
This might be way out... but I would like opinions... Its been niggling me and Ive tried to write it off, but I just cant!
Back in October, next door bought a little pony... he was being picked on and thus escaping so I offerred to have him in my field as the fancing is all stone wall. However he took a shining to madam, and then we discovered he wasn't in fact gelded. Said pony moved, and a week/two weeks later (whatever the time frame was for the injection) he was gelded and she was injected to remove the possibility of her being pregnant.
I didnt want her scanning as I couldn't have gotton rid of the baby if she had been pregnant, but it wasn't fair on her to risk her being pregnant with her allergies in the summer - I suspected she would end up miscarrying naturally through stress.
She had no shakes etc from the jab as I was told she would, but within 6-8 weeks she became lethartgic, and suddenly looked old - her tummy DrOpped which made her back looked dipped and she was depressed and miserable. I queried getting the vet out then, but I tried rugging her first and then the snow came along and she perked up a bit (she loves snow!). She was still lethargic and very very stroppy, but less miserable. Rugging helped too.
Could it be possible that this is all her being pregnant - when I look back at photos from before Christmas, she has this "DrOpped tummy" look - her girth is the same and she has always been fat from front to back, not suddenly getting fat behind the girth.
She is now bordering on hat rack status, and whilst her stomach has shrunk considerably, she is expanding outwards also. Despite being a fat ponmy, her tummy is the last place it goes - withers, neck and bum are the prime spots - her hip and spine are palpable and almost too palpable considering she still has her winter coat.
The chances of her concieving are so slim, she is very stroppy and kicked the hell out of said pony, but he didnt give up - even trying to mount her over an electric fence while I was tacking her up! She had stopped cycling in September, but came back into season because of it.
So slim a chance... I have no idea about pregnancy as I would never consider putting her in foal for her sake... could the stomach be explained by this and the reactino just unlucky timing... I dont know... but I just wonder.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 5, 2011 - 3:30 pm:
So we have now had five days at half dose and I am pleasantly surprised!! There is no heat between front legs, though there is heat in her feet so keeping an eye.
Had a bath today and so nice to have her not scurfy and scabby.
Hair loss has definitely 97% stopped just a little bit on back legs. That said I thought she was moulting, she seems to have changed her mind... The others were all moulting three weeks ago... Def cushings test in order I think.
Interestingly her pelvis has stiffened again as she is shorter striding. Def think a joint supp is in order...?
Last time we DrOpped the dose, she had started to reswell by now so fingers crossed!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 6, 2011 - 6:18 pm:
Glad to see some good news, pfb. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 5:06 pm:
So we are still off the grass with last dose o steroids on Friday does anyone know how long it would be advisable to keep off the grass for after we finish steroids before reintroducing (muzzled!!!!)
She is doing ok, was lame end of last week but sorted itself out, think she hadn't been free schooled enough - bad mum - and stiffened up.
Swelling is staying away touch wood! However super duper scurfy and crusty down legs and under tummy. Hair loss has stopped on legs and tummy, however she now has two palm sized patchs - one on flank and one on spine near tail. Vet has suggested trying iodine salts (can't remember techie name!)
So still in status quo again. She has however started to moult yay! Though vet still thinks prascend (Pergolide) trial might be worth a shot - as the patches are now not just were swelling was, he ha theorised that she is moulting but extremely if she has cushings and unlucky coincidence.
Rode tonight, her balance is reversing in the same stages it worsened in which is funny. Tremoring still an isse when ridden should really go an do a lameness thread as this has been going on since summer
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 - 6:04 am:
Also forgot to say that we (being geeky) took another blood smaple, which came back with no inflammatory reaction, and that was two weeks after being on half dose steroids (125mg daily).
I will post some pictures later of her bald patches that have now appeared. The skin is utterly bald, in a mostly circular shape. The skin is grey with occasional pink bits (pigmentation). She is totally bald where there are "straps in contact with her skin - ie. round leg straps. She has one just in front of her withers, and these two randomly on flank and spine. These three are under rugs (cotton summer sheet for flies). Two are grey and bald, one has three small 5-8mm diameter red circles on it. They are flush with the skin, and a little rough on the edges. They are not oozing or sticky or sore.
We moved yards on Sunday as we are moving house, so the itching has flared up because of that (any stress causes a flare up). I am now however able to change her to wood chip bedding which will hopefully help as the straw tickles her.
She is still withdrawn and quiet with this funny pot belly appearance - yet I can fell all her ribs, and her spine, shoulders and hip. Only fat on her is on her withers (never goes, no matter how hard I try).
She is now in season and tarting about to compound the situation LOL.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011 - 11:28 am:
Round patches could be dermatophilus or even ringworm. Hard to tell without seeing them. Given her history, I'd expect still derma. Have all her blankets and sheets been washed in anti-bacteria soap? Actually, it is better, imo, to keep her uncovered as much as possible. The one rescue mare we brought in that had dermatophius we treated with hyDrOgen peroxide and betadine mixed together in a spray bottle and sprayed it on all her itchy/bumpy spots twice a day, then rubbed it in good (use a disposable glove when doing this or scrub up really good afterwards so as not to spread the infection.) Our mare had huge bald areas, bumpy itch areas where the hair would fall out, etc. She was totally cured within a few weeks with the above treatment plus a greatly improved diet( inc. vitamin and mineral supplements) from what she'd had before we got her.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 5:52 pm:
Vet came today, I suggested rain rot and bathing etc for it, but he said it's not rain scald - the skin is not broken or sore - you can prod and poke it all you like - you can actually pull hair off without her bothering. I have resized the photos just need to upload them.
She actualy has a lot more of them than I realised. And a lot f hives/lumps. The lumps are small and have dried yellow stuff on them but no hair loss or itchiness. Again sh isnt sore on them.
This is not consistent with her allergies - hives are systemic and not related to rug coverage - never gets them under the rug.
I also asked about onchor but doesn't think so As very rare here?
Vet took four skin biopsies to be analysed - he is returning to the idea of autoimmune disorder/iimmune mediated disorder. We have topical bedtime creAm to apply, plus last dose of steroids on Friday and potassium salts to give 15ml 2xdaily for two weeks to try to help drainage/skin.
Blood results that are interesting are:
Ck - 395
Fibrinogin 2.4
Serum amyloid a - 0.0
Alpha 1 1.04
Alpha 2 9.2
Beta 1 -6.65
Beta 2 - 5.93
Gamma - 11.17
The comments made state that alpha 2 is high, simultaneous with an inflammatory response but that serum amyloid a and fibrinogen do not support this.
It also saysthat Ck is high consistent with mild recent muscle damage.
Ck was high on last bloods (having spent three days not moving or eating and these were taken after 6weeks box rest with ten minutes a day of free schooling in walk and trot.
I will get the photos up of sores - there is no pus or blisters etc though and skin isnt broken. The pink bits are lime scurf that haven't come off.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2011 - 8:15 am:
Hi,
Might want to take a look at the pictures I posted of my horse that had some very itchy hair loss. Not sure what it was in the end but it did respond well to the betadine scrub and spray and I was very careful with my brushes and cleaned them all in bleach. It took several weeks but it cleared up well. Note that it didn't really present as described under dermatophilus.
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/363417.html
Lynn
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2011 - 3:31 pm:
She looks like that in summer - The areas with this thing seem much more defined and formed?
Here are some pictures...
The bloody ones are because of biopsies
    
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2011 - 8:23 am:
Wow ok... so a bit more of an update.
Last Wednesday, a lump about the size of my hand appeared on the front of her throat. It stayed the same until Sunday night. I phoned the vet Monday to ask advice as it wasn't shifting (the other lumps come and go in hours/days, without rupturing etc). Vet said keep an eye on it and if it gets worse then phone back. Cue a tearful phone call Monday night - she couldn't bend her neck, or eat from the floor - swollen right up behind her ears and down to chest. Her breathing was fine. I took her sweet itch rugs off over night and left her to see how she went.
Last night swelling had reduced, but not gone by a long shot, but better.
Biopsy results have come back. And they are interesting... in an odd kind of way. The four areas sampled were all bald and as shown in pictures above.
The results showed:
- No allergic dermatitis
- No parasites
- No bacteria/infection etc
- Very mild skin inflammation
- Damaged hair follicles
So all very strange!! Any opinions/thoughts/discussion is very welcome!
I will try and upload more recent pics of her tonight, though its if I hjave time to resize them. She is currently about 40% bald on back legs, though since last photos this has all grown back trhough (within a week). She is now starting to bald on her face and neck. Her tail and mane remain totally unaffected and her sweet itch is unbelievably under control - althiough we are paying for me leaving her rug off the other night - but nothing compared to this time last year - she had open itching sores by end of march last year.
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Member:
helenw
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2011 - 9:15 am:
Hi there. Whereabouts "near the Pennines" are you? My old girl is out close to Altrincham and has been showing her usual itchy spring tendancies plus some super-itchy scabs with serum at the base. I've noticed the flies in this unseasonably warm and dry period we have had for a month have been very bad. The trees are leafing quite early this year - I'm told birch pollen is a major problem at the moment. My girl is also badly affected by horse-fly bites (like me!) and swells alot from them. Some years ago I found out the hard way that she is extremely allergic to citronella. Check your fly sprays VERY carefully. Cheap ones tend to contain more citronella in my experience. I use a cold black tea and vinegar mix with a slosh of Barrier Hygiene fly-spray as that is good and citronella-free. The result of my horse's reaction to citronella, after the heat and swelling had subsided was total loss of fur where the swellings had been. Effectively it was a chemical burn
Is your pony stabled on straw? A friend of mine is allergic to straw and comes up in welts very quickly when she mucks out a straw bed. I know that straw is sprayed with a hormonal growth inhibitor - it certainly isn't an organic product.
I would persist witht the Global Herbs products. I find them to be excellent, but you do need to introduce them a pinch at a time. My girl is a right old Fussy Chops - perhaps its the Welsh blood??? If you are happy to go with homeopathy, I've had great success with Apis Mel 30c. I take it myself for insect bites and stings and it beats antihistamine into a cocked hat. My mare has it for lymphangitis predominantly. Give her at least 3 doses per day and make sure she isn't having mint or garlic as these contraindicate with homeopathy.
Your poor pony does seem to almost like a person with eczema. As you have observed, stress worsens it. This may explain why her seasons affect her badly. Has she had an internal exam? I could write a book on what hormones can be responsible for (couldn't I Dr O?)Could an ovarian tumour be causing the hind end problems?
Welcome to the wonderful world of horses where the only guarantees are a broken heart and an anorexic bank account.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2011 - 10:00 am:
We are over Ashton/Stalybridge way
Oddly enough, her allergies have never been better (other than in winter!!!) She is not itchy, other than as a result from leaving unrugged over night on Monday - but usually that would not have even been a consideration for us. The Skratch really has worked wonders! She has it in a marmite sandwich with no problems! Wont have it in the dinner though. This time last year she had open bleeding sores from the allergies - this year nothing of the sort!
Citronella, interestingly, is the one thing I CAN use on her without bad reactions - tried home made stuff with either no effect or side effects, NAF stuff and deet based mozzie human spray and actually just used neat citronella oil (bought from hardware store for use in gardens!) sprayed on. It sticks well too as it is oil based.
As for bedding, she is now on wodd chips and much better since off straw (tickles her legs!). She has a diet of a handful of plain unmollassed chaff with mint in, and a handful of linseed plus the Skratch in a marmite sandwich twice a day.
We tried homeopathy last year, to no avail - I had to feed the tablets off a metal spoon, without touching them or DrOpping them and straight into her mouth... Needless to say I had no chance!
She is being tested for cushings on Monday and sex hormones. She is very uncomfy when in season, a lump swells up on her back and she reverses against walls etc and stands there arching back up. Im still niggled that she was potentially covered last year and then had the injection to ensure she wasnt pregnant... Part of me is so tempted to get a pregnancy kit to give me peace of mind!!!
The last sentence is one of the truest things Ive read recently - just a shame she is my horse of a lifetime and I wouldn't swap anything for the bond I have with her!
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Member:
helenw
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 6, 2011 - 11:17 am:
Hey, we are practically neighbours! Although horse lives in Altrincham, I live in Stockport.
Cushings could be the answer to your prayers. I know sufferers do tend to suffer from skin problems, but always thought it was more a case of cuts failing to heal and getting infected because of lowered immunity.
My girl used to suffer from "oh dear week" when she was ovulating and heading for her season. She suffered from ovulation pain (ranging from being uncomfortable to being flat out with colic-like pain) and would press her bottom on the wall, squeal and kick out. Hence I would say "oh dear" in a sympathetic tone. She would also be very touchy when ridden and sitting trot was out of the question. Welsh types do seem to be drama queens and react more strongly to some things that others would hardly be bothered with.
If you want to try homeopathy again, contact Ainsworths in London. I bet you could get anything you wanted in liquid form and then you could just add it to her feed and/or water.
Sadly, I think you are finding out why this poor little pony was neglected and tossed on the rubbish heap. I suspect that if we knew what their previous lives had entailed we would be traumatised ourselves. My mare came to me without even a name. In the summer you can see the whip marks on her near flank and I suspect she has had more owners than I've had hot dinners. I've had her 16 years now I bet it took 10 years before she was openly affectionate with me. We've really been through the mill together too so I know just how you are feeling. I always said I would dance naked in the fountains at the Trafford Centre if I thought it would benefit her. Fortunately for the public, that hasn't been necessary - yet!
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 7, 2011 - 4:43 pm:
Hehe I had best not offer to do that... Knowing the little monkey she will convince me that bring naked inthe fountains will heal her!!!!!
She has decinitley had a bad past - we have moved yards and now on a busier yard with better facilities - she withdrew and became timid for first few days but has now come back out of herself which I didnt think she would do as she is so wary of people. She has come so far.
Are there any other thoughts on random swellings of varying time spans, high scurf and some crustiness with hair falling out like dermatophiliius? Her face is nicely balding now along with neck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 9, 2011 - 1:06 pm:
What did they offer as a possible set of rule outs with the biopsy pfb and what was the diagnosis on the neck swelling?
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 9, 2011 - 4:43 pm:
I haven't seen the paperwork but it showed:
No signs of allergic dermatitis
No parasites
No bacteria/infection Inc dematophilius etc
Very mild skin inflammation
Damage to hair follicles
They were sampled by apple core type technique. Te skin was not washed etc prior to sampling and samples were put in a pot of fluid. Four samples were taken from four different areas (one near shoulder/wither, one near flank, one above tail and one off neck/shoulder). Appropr areas sampled were bald.
From these pemphigus has been ruled out. No diagnosis for neck swelling - vet didn't come out to see it in the end as he was on holiday and it didn't affect breathing and by appointment it hard thankfully started to go down.
The biopsies were done to rule out PF as that was most likely cause. Vet said most common cause of hair loss not rules out by biopsies (ie not mites etc) is hormones and nutrition. He has no concerns over nutrition as she has a vit min supp and restricted grazing for weight /lami aspect so we are looking at hormone routes.
As of yesterday she is now losing hair higher up on tummy and flank. Winter coat still not shedding out properly and face 60% bald now and under jaw and neck. She is also struggling to regulate body temperature 1 has come in earlier in week when raining, shivering badly despite being dry under rug and yesterday could Hardly walk as she has totally over heated and stood pulsing back and forth, dripping in sweat. She only had her cotton fly sheet on.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 9, 2011 - 6:26 pm:
Oh my!
Poor thing seems to have some malfunctions going on.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 19, 2011 - 4:50 pm:
Bloods were taken, vet certain she was cushingoid - but alas no. They consider 29 as borderline at this time of year, and she was 16 so no where near borderline!
He has reverted to original pemphigus diagnosis and we took a further seven biopsies. She has lost so much muscle and weight, her back is looking dipped. She is eating well, and having 2% body weight in hay a day so I have room to up the feeding still if she loses too much - still delightful wither fat pads though!!!
So we shall see. I can't put anymore pics up as Internet at home not working, so on mobile phone and I can't resize them and upload them from phone.
She has lost a lot of hair over neck and face. It is already startin to grow back though. Her withers are bald and it is spreading over rest of torso and tummy again. Skin underneath has no open lesions still though occasional red marks revealed (has about three of them). Hair owing off with skin still, though instead of it being grey scurf attached it's often a greeny colour at the moment. She has yellow crusting on pick pigmentation which is odd and mane an tail in tact (touch wood!!).
She is as happy as she has ever been, still full of attitude. We have about two bad days per fortnight - she seems to seize up and although not lame, she is very shuffy in movement and slow. She looks suitably miserable with it too - otherwise she is happy as she ever is.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Monday, Apr 25, 2011 - 8:39 am:
So glucose and insulin results were also normal (19 a borderine score for insulin resistance - she scored 2.5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) - so everything is saying "normal pony".
She is still ok, was bad friday/satrday with stiffness but was happy enough. Biopsy sites which werent stitched (due to her sensitivity and toughened skin - couldnt get needle through some of it, are starting to heal nicely
These were taken last week - she is balder still from these
I do wonder if this thread shoud be moved... as she's only itchy where hair is coming out in clumps
  
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Apr 25, 2011 - 6:24 pm:
Good news!
Looks like she is doing better.
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Member:
helenw
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2011 - 8:35 am:
Hi again. I just had a thought - and I don't know if it is even possible - but could this be some sort of autoimmune reaction to her own sweat? It seems that her most affected places - belly, chest, under the forelock, behind the ears and around her hind legs/udder are all places I see my girl sweat alot (also attracts biting flies/gnats etc of course). If her skin is effectively being burned by her own secretions, any movement would stretch it and make her very reluctant to walk about. Re-reading the posts it does seem that she is struggling with her internal thermostat. Could the apparent neurological symptoms be due to that too?
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2011 - 3:01 pm:
The temperature issue hasn't reoccurred for two weeks now - she does have very lethargic days but weather seems irrelevant to this.
She is still shivering but I think this is anticipation of pain - it happens when a brush appears or her rug comes off.
And neurological problems seems to have subsided - she can Pick feet up ok - though I don't know about the wobbling as obviously not riding her
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2011 - 3:12 pm:
Maybe I've missed where you responded to this, but Dr. O and others have suggested dermatophilus may be the skin ailment here. Have you treated for it?
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 27, 2011 - 3:22 pm:
No not treated for dermatophilius but four biopsies taken from bald parts in varying locations showed no bacteria or infection etc. There are no open lesions like with rain scald, though small bits of pink pigment seem to get yellow crust on (no sore under though) wheras grey skin doesn't seem to do this.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, May 6, 2011 - 5:23 pm:
Biopsies are back - all seven of them this time (five last time).
No sign of bacteria or dematophytes etc.
Confirmed pemphigus follliaceus with indicators of pemphigus erythematosus as the specific diagnosis.
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Member:
helenw
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Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 9:21 am:
Bum, that isn't good news but I suppose at least now you know who your enemy is.
This might be useful to you
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=238749
How is she doing now the weather is so sunny?
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