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Discussion on Brusising-metabolism
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 4:58 am:
Can bruising in the foot be caused by metabolism disorder ?
My horses are fed hay , rations/hard food mixed by a dietician , minerals. Food is specifically done for my two boys who do not do work . They are out the whole 24/7 with free excess to the stable with shavings . Now, spring I am putting them on the pasture for 4 - 7 hours / day. The grass is not great . They have gravel part which they have to go over all the time .
Trubi - 10 years old had a small bruise Nov. 2010 and now he has bruises on his FL and BL after the trimmer was here - I must say he only took off some of his frog loose pieces He was slightly lame for a day . I gave him anti-iflamatory Danilon. The trimmer is saying, the bruising is caused by metabolism - that the horse is changing his feeding daily from hay to pasture and is is making havoc with his metabolism.
Trubi is not growing his walls enough for my liking. At the
toes the sole (or is it a callous?) is higher than the wall.
They love to go out - they run and play which is so important for them now when I cannot excercise them - I think.
Dr. O and you knowledgable people, can you give me advice ,
please ?
Thank you, AM.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 7:16 am:
Hello AM,
I am not completely sure I understand what your farrier is saying but as stated above the answer is, no, there are not any metabolic disorders that are caused by changing feeds that, in themselves, result in hoof bruising. To clarify this issue you need to ask your farrier, what type of metabolic disorder is he talking about? We have an article on your issue HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Problems Following Shoeing or Trimming in which you will find links to our article on bruising and improving the horn of your horses feet.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 3:02 pm:
If the brusing is the same on all four feet (pattern and shape etc) then it is likely to be an internal cause or iffy trimming.
My little one gets bruising on the outer quarter of all four feet in spring and autumn - my own little indicator of when the ACTH levels are varying I wonder?!
I doubt they are getting bruised from being in and out - if they were most of the worlds horses would be crippled?! I find that bizarre logic!?
I would first look at the trim and the pattern of the bruise, ie if lateral quarter, are the the outer quarter walls being left a little long?
MY big pony was when she came out of shoes, closer to ground with toe callus than hoof wall - 8months on and she has good improvement in the feet becoming concave - it is only by good diet, trimming and environment that good hoof growth can be achieved - what are they "out on" 24/7 at the moment?
Grass is our biggest problem, but its just knowing the horse - if mine has no grass she will go over everything and anything, but a bit of grass and she is footy within hours.
I would also choose to not give cereals etc. I don;t know much about feeds in USA, but mine have the equivalent of chopped hay (unmollassed) (tiny handful!) with vits and mins in - cereals etc tend to be higher in sugar - so lowest sugar starch feed you can give - or a beet - we have beets called fibrebeet and speedibeet which are about 4% sugar/starch content which is what you need to aim for with barefoot feet 
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Friday, Feb 4, 2011 - 6:18 pm:
AM, is there any way you can post pictures of the feet?
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2011 - 11:22 am:
We are having terrible time here - my hub and I. - Our big dogs Alsation and Rotweiler had an fight at night - helpt by all other dogs attacking the older alsation. h o rr i b l e .
Alsation is in the hospital ( 1.5 hours away) has been in a shock - but NOW he is better and probably will survive........
He is our first dog here - Mondego - and we love him - as all the others.
Horse trailer proved to be excellent help - I managed to separate the shepherd dog and locked him up in the trailer which was convenint near by.
Horses didn't like my blood soaked clothing when I vent to give them hay. Prefered smelling me to eating their hay !!
Yes, I was planing to take a picture today - but.....will do when all this dog business is settled .
Dr. O, thank you for your answer, I did read it all and I dare say I do try to educate myself all the time about the hoof trimming e.t.c...... The metabolism is for me littel difficult to digest . I do understand that drastic / immediate change of food is no good. But the horses were always going to the pastures when ever possible. and n o problem. The farrier is saying that because they don't work, they don't have the proper growing of the hoof .
About the metabolism I shall ask him again.....
They have been bare foot for 8 years, the younger did never had shoes.
They don't get any cereals . Spring and autumn grass may be dangers for them. But they are always out with more or less green grass the whole year.....They should be able to handle it .
Popularfurball, What is ACTH ?
The bruising is at the toe . If it would be any other place, I'd think, he stepped on a stone ( many here, big and small) . Today less hot at the very spot.
I will send pictures and we'll see further .
Thank you all for the input.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 5, 2011 - 12:19 pm:
Gosh good luck with the dogs! Aren't our animals always capable of changing our 'plans for the day'?
Hope everybody is ok and sorted out soon!
Jos
PS Sorry no useful comments on your horses
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2011 - 4:38 am:
Gosh, Jos - THANK you for your personal feeling.
We have 8 dogs all with chocking past.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2011 - 9:59 am:
Anna-Marie - I want to add my good wishes that all the critters will improve. You have a lot to deal with!
Good luck,
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 6, 2011 - 2:20 pm:
Hope that things are looking up!
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 6:41 am:
Here are the photos of Trubi's bruised feet . The two right feet are OK.....
Vicky, thanks, any opinion welcome.
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Member:
briggai
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 9:16 am:
AM. I know next to nothing about horses feet, but
my heart goes out to you for the dog trouble!There is nothing I will try to avoid more than a dog fight.HORRIBLE is right! I have some experience,don't even like to think about it!
Sounds like you've rescued some dogs? Bless your heart!I've done the same,many times.Cats,too.
Sometimes our commitments suck the life right out
of us don't they?
Good luck to you!
Gailb
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 10:40 am:
The only time I've seen bruising that looked like this it was due to a horse being trimmed too short then turned out onto hard or rocky ground. How soon after your horses was trimmed did the brusing show up, or it was there and showed up while the farrier was working.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 7, 2011 - 7:23 pm:
AM, my mare had toe bruising similar to your pictures. Hers bruised due to thin soles, ice and frozen ground, ice balls forming at the toe, and shoes left on too long--or so I was told by vet and farrier. She was very, very lame--rocked back on her hinds to relieve pressure on the fronts, walked extremely slowly, stiff legged, when she would walk at all. Her stall was deeply bedded with straw (on top of rubber mats). I put Hoof Wraps (brand name) with gel pads on her front feet. She also received Naproxen (anti inflammatory). Her front feet x-rays showed no rotation. She was not foundered. She did not develop laminitis. She was diagnosed with thin soles and severe bruising. It took about 3 weeks for her to become sound on soft ground. For what it is worth, that's my story of toe bruising.
She can be counted on to become tenderfooted if her feet remain wet for a few days (due to rain, slush...) and the sole softens up. Thin soles...
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2011 - 8:04 am:
Hello AM,
To be sure I understand the above images is the only bruise like discoloration of the sole the round spot at the toe of the LR?
Modified from Wikipedia: Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), is a hormone produced and secreted by the anterior pituitary gland in the brain. It is an important component of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and is often produced in response to biological stress. Its principal effects are increased production and release of corticosteroids from the adrenal cortex.
I am not sure what Pfb's response above means or why whe would relate it to bruising. ACTH has a complicated diagnostic role in PPID (Equine Cushings) and levels may be related to susceptibility to founder in that disease. As of yet such a role has not been found in Equine Metabolic SynDrOme and in at least one study was not found predictive for likelyhood of founder In the EMS horse.
DrO
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2011 - 2:42 pm:
I would personally hedge my bets on a trim error or unlucky coincidence - but otherwise no idea - just not sure its a metabolic bruise, although the hoof may be "weak" due to nutritional issues which means its not got all vits/mins etc for optimum growth.
DrO sorry was a musing - I will post pictures of what I would call a "true" metabolic bruising - it is the same and consistant over all four feet.
My little one seems to develop bruising consistantly on lateral edge of hooves, on all four feet. It was simply a theory that, as his diet hadnt changed that it may well be due to levels of hormones fluctuating - it coincides with him shedding his coat. Obviously this is also often similar times to grass flushes as well give or take a bit.
The bruising pattern is identical on all four feet - obviously it could be a "bad" trim on all four feet - though it happens Feb/March time and August/Sept time specifically - his feet are great, a true shetland set of nice concave feet with good frogs etc. Diet controlled, grass intake limited in summer, weight watched and given a vit/min supplement (broad spectrum).
 
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 4:11 am:
Thank you all for your input. I am late answering - have been in town with the injured dog. He is getting better.
Yes, Dr.O, it is at the toe the. Horses went to their pastures.
Sara, Bruising occured the next day. Yes, we do have stones here and there and we do have gravel path (specially done for the well being of the hoofs) . The area where the bruising is was very hot. Now it is OK.
We are waiting for the vet to do Xrays of all feet.
Vicki, I think he has thin soles. It seems that Trubi will be the same as your horse.
The farrier says - he has thin soles because he is not working......
I don't like - or I am not sure if it is OK when the sole at the toes is at the same level as the wall. Bevel. yes, but the wall should still be a bit higher ?! Can you see it on the photos ?
Thank you all,
AM.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 4:24 pm:
AM, I do not get an impression of a exposed sole but yes in general the wall should provide some protection to the sole. There is a exception where some bare foot trimmers try to achieve a sole callus at the toe through four point trim techniques. This callus is very thick and tuff. I often see such bruising without clinical signs but the acute onset associated with the lameness suggest a possible role with the lameness.
Pfb if you would like to discuss the wall bruising lets start a new discussion rather than melding it in here.
DrO
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 5:09 pm:
Dr.O do you mean wall bruising, or sole bruising ?
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 1:45 am:
The vet has been. No X-rays . He recommends change of mineral/vitamins supplement and biotine .
Both horses are licking their salt/mineral block too much .
More than in the past .
Yesterday - for the first time Viollno has been eating feces of Trubi . !!!
All that makes Vet an me think, they are lacking something.......in their diet.
I will have the hay analyzed .
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 4:53 am:
Wasn't wanting to discuss wall bruising, was trying to share what a metabolic bruise could look like so op could see the difference - I personally learn by seeing things so thought it would be helpful to show how with metabolic bruising it should be consistent across all four feet.
I was simply trying to highlight the difference.
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 5:25 am:
Op - sorry forgot to say - working does help to stimulate hoof growth, but the feet above are beautiful underneath - concave and good callus and frog - and he has no understanding of what "work" is!!!!
Lots of lush pasture doesn't always help with hoof growth but neither does a bad trim style - I have no idea if either of those apply to your situation but it's why we don't use a farrier but a trimmer who specialises in diet and barefoot and one of the reasons her grass intake is limited.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 7:54 am:
AM, I think you are asking about this line I often see such bruising without clinical signs but the acute onset associated with the lameness suggest a possible role with the lameness. and I was referring to your image of a sole bruise but it would apply to the images of the wall bruising above also.
You will find additional information on coprophagia (eating feces) at HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Pica: Horses Eating Inappropriate Materials.
DrO
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 7:58 am:
Dr. O. forget about my last question. The abreviation was too much for my small brain ....
Popularfurball,It is interesting to see your pictures - looks like you have number of white ponies. ? It would be good to start new discussion and let us know if they improve .
And about the callus - reading what Dr.O said, I should maybe do the 4 point trim on him and it would help him ? I've shaved off a bit of his heels on the front feet. The heels on the back feet are OK .
I think, he should have more concavity in the front part of the hoofs in the front . That is the reason why I think he has thin soles.
I do most of the trimming myself - only if I am not able (health) I ask my previous trimmer to come and help . At the moment I think his feet are not correct and I am afraid it is the food - either the hay is bad or the "nutritionist" is making wrong mix.
Glad I am not alone - the articles and your opinions will get us there....
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Member:
silver
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2011 - 10:49 pm:
It's hard to tell about trim from the pictures - woul be easier with front view side view and then sole view of each foot. Generally not developing toe callus is because toes are long and need to be bought back a bit with a decent roll on the edge to help prevent mechanical flaring.
I have a welsh mare and a blue roan (tricoloured) miniature Shetland - if he didn't have White feet I would never know those bruises are there - never footy or sore on them, just an interesting comparison in terms of pattern to highlight metabolic bruising. They have nearly grown out now but will probably reappear in spring!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 12, 2011 - 8:46 am:
If you have not already check out HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Hoof Care, Hoof Trimming, Shoeing Horses » The 4 Point or Natural Trim.
DrO
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