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Discussion on EMS - ammunition against the Spring Grass added risk?
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Member:
astbury
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 9:49 am:
Hi all
Has anyone any knowledge of the products "Hiero"or "previcoxx"? We have been in touch with the company which produces this and they have made the following recommendation. I have no idea whether the "science" is valid and would appreciate any advice anyone can give before going ahead and obtaining:
"The previcoxx med added is for the nerve pain that comes from past laminitic episodes--recent research shows that the nerves are effected also---these horses will get a neuritis from past laminitis--this neuritis can flare at times of colder weather----it is a seperate condition from the metabolic issue but must be addressed to get the horse right--the product will get the metabolic insulin that leads to further laminitis, but already in place neuritis needs to be controlled to help the horse--pain causes insulin to go up also. We need to get both metabolic insulin and pain insulin
to get a faster, better result.
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Member:
astbury
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 9:50 am:
Sorry - should have said that the horse concerned is already on Pergolide and is managed correctly in terms of restricted turnout with muzzle; low sugar feed; soaked hay etc.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 11:26 am:
I've never heard of this but will be interested to read the comments you get. Our chronic problem mare, Sahira, and our other chronically lame mare Libby, both react to changes in the weather and have to be buted for a day or two every time it suddenly turns cold.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011 - 2:02 pm:
Hello Jenny,
We have an article on the active ingredient Previcox and you will find it at HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » EQUIOXX (firocoxib). I will note that the use of Previcox, labeled for dogs, is against the AVMA practise act. You can read more about that in the posts on that same page.
I do not know anything about the Heiro.
I am unaware of a founder induced neuritis in horses. High blood glucose can induce several neurodegenerative diseases in humans but there are no similar diseases described in the horse and NSAID's don't generally help with this problem.
DrO
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Member:
astbury
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2011 - 4:59 am:
Hi Dr O and Sara. Thanks for your posts. I will follow the link on Previcox. As far as the Heiro is concerned, one of the claims for the product is that it (stops) Laminitic episodes - get your horse out of "jail" (small dirt lot) and back on pasture where they are meant to be and the happiest". Tempting for anyone who has juggled with the management of a chronic laminitic/EMS horse or pony - but a dangerous step to take if it doesn't! The website for the product is www.equinemedsurg.com/Heiro and gives before and after lab tests which it says shows Heiro works. The owner or director of the Company is apparenty a DVM.
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 3, 2011 - 9:54 am:
I've had my 2 gaited horses on Heiro since January 21. One is foot sore in the cold, and I've recently been able to turn him out without boots. The other is IR and I plan to draw blood in the next couple of weeks to monitor his levels (I'll update to this post). The Heiro is a powder that you give 1 scoop in the AM. My guys don't turn-up their noses at it, but some horses may object to the powder (it smells great to me)! Dr. Reilly keeps in touch regularly via eMail to offer advice, and you can call him as well to discuss any concerns. So far my experience has been positive but, of course, the upcoming Spring will be the real test.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 5, 2011 - 11:20 am:
Hey Guys,
Heiro should be considered an alternative medication as there is no good independent proof of the claims they make. There is evidence that there are herbs, minerals, and vitamins that effect blood glucose, insulin, and insulin sensitivity, I cannot find any work on what might be efficacious dosages in the hors or even if there is a clinically significant effect in the horse at any dose. Neither do I find the Heiro pages on the web compelling indeed they are somewhat misleading by suggesting their product has been independently tested for efficacy. I see no real proof of that.
We have discussed this product several times before and if you run a search above you will find them.
DrO
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Member:
astbury
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Posted on Monday, Mar 7, 2011 - 11:28 am:
Thanks Tina and Dr O.
Thanks also Dr O for checking out the web page. Having worked in the medical department of a company in the pharmaceutical industry previously which included clinical trials - both human and veterinarian - I thought the claims were possibly a bit lacking in substance. Will be interested though to see how Tina fares with the spring grass. It would be nice to talk to someone who has used Heiro now for upwards of a year. Guess need to view with caution but maybe still worth delving deeper for results. Did try to find Heiro on the site first of all - but couldnt find it. Maybe spelt it wrong. Will try again. Cheers
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Thursday, Apr 14, 2011 - 8:52 am:
Just had the blood drawn on my IR horse with the following results: Glucose 95; ACTH 21.3; Insulin 36.48 (previously 104), Cortisol 4.38. All within "normal" limits.
Again, this is after using Heiro since end-January 2011.
I am going to continue the Heiro and draw blood again in the Fall. Right now my guy is sound and on spring pasture.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2011 - 8:02 am:
That is wonderful TinaC that your horses are doing so well but unlikely anything to do with the Heiro. All the IR horses in my practice are doing well also without any testing or Heiro. The rule we follow is keeping them a condition 5/6 or less.
DrO
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Friday, Apr 15, 2011 - 9:27 am:
Yes, I understand your point of view. While the results are anecdotal, the fact I'm faced with is that his blood work is now "normal." I can't directly correlate the improvement to the use of Heiro, but neither can I completely discount it.
My gelding is a BCS of (at least) an 8. I do realize the risks and am taking steps to improve his score. Until I do, or until his blood work indicates otherwise, Heiro will continue be part of his diet. For now, I think doing anything different would be irresponsible on my part.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 16, 2011 - 9:07 am:
That is one of my concerns with the use of such a product TinaC: folks might think they can avoid what are well established good management steps on the hope that such products will work wonders which as of yet remain unproven and seem how do I say this highly conjectural. The Heiro site has the same warning but most don't make it to the bottom of the pages with this caveat or if they do they ignore it:Proper diet and exercise is essential for horse health. HEIRO is a supplement to help maintain horse health. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent disease. DrO
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 11:54 am:
I completely agree; it's not a silver bullet. My hope was to get his insulin level back in normal range so that I could gradually reduce his intake. He also had a hoof abscess which prevented exercise (just my luck), so the Heiro was started more as a "let's see what this does" than anything. Whether his insulin would have returned to normal without the Heiro, who knows? But now that it is, and the abscess is long gone, I'll reevaluate once the weight comes off. Just as a side note, my other gelding (with chronic sore/problem feet), is also on Heiro and is actually ROMPING around the pasture. I am NOT trying to attribute this directly to the use of Heiro (since I've also been extremely diligent in tending to his hooves over the Winter) but frankly, the majority of the improvement (sole concavity, toe growth, no ouchiness) was post-January. So 2 different horses, 2 different problems, both with positive results. Which is why I'll continue with the Heiro for the near term and monitor as the Spring progresses, since it's certainly not hurting them any to stay on it.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 1:18 pm:
Good afternoon to all.
I had a post all typed out for this subject last night but when the tornados went thru...poof..power gone. So far, we have 3 deaths and wide spread devastation in my county and the next one over.
TinaC...I want to personally thank you and Jenny for bringing this topic back up. I also struggle with a metabolically challenged horse and follow info everywhere I can find it.
DrO...surely there must be a way we can find veterinarians who have clients using or have used this product? They must be out there, especially in the area where this was originally created? I would put a lot of faith in those, good or bad, but I don't know how to locate them...any advice...many of us surely would like to get to the bottom of this product and it's reputation among the practising?
TinaC....I'm curious what lab is running your blood work? Is it totally independent from labs connected to Heiro? I would trust any of them but for the sake of researching unbiased opinions/results, I would like to know. Your results are quite impressive, especially since you say your horse has a BCS of 8? WOW...congrats and good for you!!!!!
I can't tell you all how much I pull my hair out trying to balance a met. synDrOme horse paired with a 25 year old mare who needs the easy fiber from grass to help keep her motility going...it's exhausting. They refuse to be separated, I tried the grazing muzzle and the horse went off the deep end, total personality change after about a month. He was only wearing it for a few hours per day but, he reached a point where his eyes filled with absolute rage when he saw it in my hands. He would still let me put it on him but it was ruining our "buddy" status, the trust issue I have years invested in. Now, I'm back to rotating gates and adjusting grazing times according to the grass growth. To make up for what the other horse doesn't get, I hand walk her in the grass within sight of the other horse while he is eating his hay. Once I have better grass growth in the back yard, I can stick her in there where they can see each other...but right now, there isn't enough grass there to help quite yet....sigh.
Anyway, TinaC, Jenny and DrO.....I am profoundly interested in this thread and do sincerely wish that we had a way of finding veterinarians whose clients are actually using this product and what results they are seeing....any suggestions?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 4:44 pm:
TinaC, you do not need to monitor insulin levels in order to reduce a overweight horse's feed intake. Reducing a horses feed intake and the concomitant improvement in condition (decreased weight) there is likely to be a natural decrease in insulin being released and a increase in the tissues insulin sensitivity.
I am not asking you to stop using it, I have no proof it is not helping your horses. I am pointing out there is little science to back the fantastic claims make by the person selling the product. The site suggests there is a lot of testing but that testing has to do not with the efficacy of the treatment but instead the nature of the ingredients. I find it a bit misleading when the link to the site in Google comes up with the statement "USDA certified treatment" but on careful reading of the site it is the ingredients that are certified to be "Organic" by the USDA. If this product did what it said why resort to such...misdirection?
I am a type 2 diabetic or what would be called someone suffering from "Human Metabolic SynDrOme". I follow the research both human and horse. I find little evidence that this will have a clinical effect. Concerning using clinical experience as a guide, you have to remember that for hundreds of years doctors bled patients because many more than just two got well. Clinical experience is often misleading because controls are not run to see what might have happened had you not used a particular treatment. Clinical experience may be a first step but without rigorous testing we are back bleeding patients.
Patty, I do not have a way to seek out such folks but perhaps your request will attract other posters.
DrO
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 17, 2011 - 11:32 pm:
Just to add further info to the conversation:
This afternoon when I got back from a run to take food to the radio station covering the tornado damage updates, I spent two hours doing Internet searches for anything I could find on Heiro....including any forums that popped up. Believe it or not, even with that much time, I didn't come up with much other than catalogue businesses that sell it however, I did come across one or two people using it and posting on different forums their results. There was nothing new.....change diet, use muzzle, etc. and adding Heiro brought down insulin test results....which were questioned by other forum users who made the same diet changes. Both people felt it was helping however, what struck me after two hours was that I could only find 2 people using it. Naturally, not everyone using it necessarily uses the Internet for posting..but it did strike me that I could only find 2? Maybe I'm just tired from being up until 2:30 this morning relaying info to my friend from the radio station but dang, only 2?
I guess with the lack of productive results, after spending two hours searching, that alone tells us something? Maybe I'm frustrated or disappointed that I could only find 2...which leaves this subject still out there hanging, hoping those who are using it can enlighten us on their results.
I'm beat, my eyes are crossing (thank God for spell checker) soooo, I think that's my clue to get off the computer. It's such an interesting product...but like you all, I want to know how others using it have made out, good, bad or indifferent, I want to know so I can make informed decisions.
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Monday, Apr 18, 2011 - 9:48 am:
PattyB, first and foremost, I'm glad the storms have passed but I'm sorry to hear of the destruction and saddened by the loss of life. Nature can be so forceful -- I'm glad you're safe.
From what I recall, Heiro is a relatively new product on the market. I believe it's only been out since 2010 -- maybe 2009 -- but a short time in terms of product life. When I first saw it advertised I was already spending a ton of money on horse boots, farriers, vets, hoof medications, etc. and wanted to wait to see the experience of others. When I didn't see people writing about it, and when my other gelding's blood work came back (from Cornell University) with insulin level at 104, my vet was the one who actually suggested putting him on APF, D-Carb Balance, or other such supplement. I used APF for a short while, but it was just too much strain on my pocketbook. I read about Heiro, spoke with Dr. Reilly, and came to the conclusion that I would try a 90-day supply. I got the result I wanted (normal blood work, again from Cornell) but was it due to the use of Heiro? Can't say for certain... but that's exactly why I put BOTH my horses on it (my other gelding's feet were falling apart). Today his feet have never looked better. He is barefoot and running around like a yearling. While it's true that I put a lot of time and effort into caring for his feet over the Winter, I really noticed the turn-around post-January.
As mentioned previously by Dr. O, there is little science to back-up the claims, so we horse owners need to use such products with a skeptic eye and be diligent to follow "established, good horse management" rather than think a supplement is going to cure our horse's problems.
Nevertheless, I also believe that if there is a natural product that may aid in helping a horse turn the corner toward a more comfortable existence, why not give it a try?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 19, 2011 - 7:34 am:
The earliest post in our boards that I can find on Heiro was late 2008 but I don't know when it first became available.
DrO
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 26, 2011 - 2:05 pm:
Jenny....quick question for you: How on earth do you get them to call you back? I've left 2 phone messages and one email...nothing.
I need to know how much magnesium is in Heiro so I can balance it with a product I'm already using. Also....is it only rec. for those who have had laminitis issues? I caught Ziggy's problem before that happened by trying to figure out his horrible mood swings. Seems when he gets too much grass, he becomes belligerent and eats like he's starving...all of which goes away when I cut his grass time. Ziggy appears to have a connection between too many carbs and his general attitude. The difference is quite striking and if I need to cut the grass back, it takes a day or two for him to mellow out and become nice again.
Anyway, I really am considering giving this product a try to see if it helps to keep him on a more even temperament. I don't know, that's part of what I want to ask but, they won't call me back. It's 2 simple questions, how much magnesium is in it......and although I've avoided laminitis, would the product be of use to him with his mood swings somehow interconnected with grass spikes? Any suggestions?
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 - 1:03 am:
Just stopping in to say that I did hear from them, both a phone call and several emails.
After having the opportunity to ask my questions, I ordered a 2 month supply to see how it goes. Most of everything else I'm already doing sooo, I decided to proceed carefully and watch to see what happens.
My Heiro arrived this afternoon...and omg...it smells yummy when you open the container. Reminds me of cinnamon toast! I put a half dose in his evening feed just to see if he liked it...licked the bowl clean!
Anyway, day 1 tomorrow. My dad is terminally ill so I'll do my best to post my observations and I go thru the process.
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Member:
jowidner
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 - 7:19 pm:
I'm sorry to hear about your dad, Patty. Take good care of yourself and let us know how you are when you can.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 - 7:40 pm:
So sorry to read about your dad, Patty. Some others on HA have been down that road also. It isn't easy. Yet, it can be a blessed time as well. I hope you have support and help. Feel free to rant, rave and weep as needed. We're all pretty good at listening. Make sure you manage to take the time to care for yourself and come up for air now and then. I used to like to just stand in the barn in the evening and listen to the horses eating and sleeping. I found it very calming and soothing.
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2011 - 9:01 am:
PattyB, I'm very sorry to hear of your father's illness. But please remember to take care of yourself as well during this time -- it can be a long road.
I just wanted to mention that I did not really recognize my "Heiro results" (if we can call it that?) until after 90 days, and even more now, almost 120 days into using it. The most recent change I noticed is that the horses are sloughing (SP?) their soles normally, as opposed to growing a false sole, which I've been dealing with for over a year on my one guy. I feel more and more encouraged each time I clean their feet. They are both barefoot (both used to wear shoes on all 4's), and my plan at the moment is to keep them barefoot unless something changes.
Anyhow, I'm very interested and curious to hear your experience, as well as others, who have tried this product. So please keep posting when you can.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2011 - 12:28 pm:
Greetings and good morning ladies...and thank you so much for your well wishes for my dad...what a great bunch!
Before I update on Heiro, my dad's doctor is having him start IV chemo next week. It is total chaos here as I have my mom and dad next door to take care of, mostly that my dad eat. I go over 4 times a day to feed and medicate except on work days that an aide comes for a few hours twice/day. Treatment creates a whole nuther fiasco as I need help getting him in and out of the car.....sigh. My brother will be arriving in 2 weeks though so I just have to bite the bullet and hang in there until he arrives. All on top of a business to run, a family to care for, a farm to keep straight, etc......ugh.
OK, with that said so you all know where I'm coming from, today is day 2 on Heiro. It was a cool and rainy day yesterday so Zig was a bit hyper last night...but well within normal for him though. This morning, I did notice he was really taking his time to eat his hay. Could be just a coincidence, but he did appear to eat a little slower....with the exception of chasing a rooster away that he swore was after his hay crumbs...lol.
Dr. Reilly has continued to answer my emails when I have a question so, I'm real comfortable with that. As with others, this is an experiment for Ziggy, yet I'm at the disadvantage of not having blood work to follow. I'm not kidding when I say 2 grown men cannot get a needle into him so if I don't know how to draw blood, we don't have it to compare. Zig and I do just fine with needles so, I could sedate him for blood work, but I really don't want to. All along, his attitude has been my clue so that's how I'm winging it. According to a vet in my area with a PhD in equine nutrition, his foul moods that coincide with his aggressive eating are/were being caused by elevated insulin....which is what we're trying to address with Heiro (along other lifestyle habits). I've already been doing all of the other protocols so, if he mellows out some, I'll know it's the Heiro addressing the insulin issues. Ziggy tries to be a good boy but when his body tells him he's starving, he turns into something only a mother would try to understand why.
Time to head next door, will keep you posted as best I can.....oh and one more thing.....Ziggy scarfs his food up, seems to actually like his Heiro. After doing a taste test, I like it too!
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Member:
martina
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Posted on Thursday, May 5, 2011 - 6:06 pm:
Patty, you mention insulin a few times in your post, so I am going to start a new thread about the use of psyllium for glucose and insulin control. I read an article in The Horse (https://www.thehorse.com) about it, and a study that was recently done and published in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science. You may want to try to find the article; it's simply titled "Psyllium Lowers Blood Glucose and Insulin Concentrations in Horses." It's interesting reading.
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Member:
pattyb
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Posted on Monday, May 9, 2011 - 10:05 am:
Hi TinaC. I read that in the magazine and thought it was quite interesting so, I have it on a back burner while I give Heiro a try....don't want to change too many things at once.
Interesting observation to report---->Ziggy didn't wolf his hay down like he's starving this morning...but he did chase a chicken away from it..what a ham. 
I really have my hands full but trudging along anyway. Ziggy has no problem eating his Heiro, and I still say, it smells like cinnamon toast...yum, yum. And once I connected with Dr. Reilly, he has been great about responding to my questions.
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